If I were a martial in your game I would say to your caster "Anyone can do my job, huh? Cool. Here's my tower shield and my longsword. You go do my job." and see how long they last.
HINT: They would splatter instantly.
"Thanks for the tower shield but I brought my own. Also it doesn't impair me horribly and hey, it blocks magic missiles too."
"Thanks for the tower shield but I brought my own. Also it doesn't impair me horribly and hey, it blocks magic missiles too."
"Hmm. Along with that Mage Armor your probably casting and the fact that yours only lasts 20 minutes if you've reached god tier, maybe you should hold on to it."
Really, though spells, are not a long term replacement for gear. That's a disingenuous argument from the go.
Then maybe the problem is more in your campaign, than that of a general one with the game as a whole. PFS at double digit play still has plenty of the hitting and the smacking to go along with the powerful casting.
I consider it a feature, rather than a bug, to have high-level capabilities that go beyond blindly walking down corridors and hitting things just like you did at 1st level. Casters are explicitly given those tools in the rules -- I don't consider their use a "problem." Instead, I consider the lack of tools provided to half the team to be the problem. YMMV.
Level 1 slots are of small concern. Mage Armor will last all day, and Shield lasts long enough as a prebuff if you detect the enemies before they detect you. Could quicken it with a lesser rod as well if such is the case, or extend it for even cheaper.
The actual tower shield is so horrible I don't know why they make it a proficiency for some classes. I'd rather be able to take a free EWP.
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Imagine if Han had access to (and was able to fly) only a landspeeder in the first movie, instead of the Millenium Falcon, and your analogy will be more exact. Han's place in the story depended on his ship and his ability to fly it.
And if you're reading 'Darths and Droids', he isn't even capable of that.
I would like to point out to people that for a good deal of encounters, a Master Summoner can do the fighter's role pretty well. Spamming out a never ending wall of gates and summon monsters can make a more effective wall than a single fighter.
Oh and the Synthesist Summoner can make better tanks than fighters, especially in point buy, since they can effectively DUMP your physical stats and min max theri mental, then go all 3e druid and get their physical stats again, but with a unsunderable armor bonus of god, 3.4 casting, a rediculous wall of hp (D8+d10 as opposed to the poor fighters measly single d10), oh and a rediculous wall of natural attacks/special abilities/ immunities that the Fighter would be lucky to ever have (like flight, energy immunities, rake, rend, pounce, grab, ect.)
More buff buff buff. Most buffs aren't all day buffs. How are you getting so many spells of midcombat when YOU'RE the tank? You can't Shift away, you have to block.
Many buffs are all day buffs. False life and Mage armor for example. Are we trying to get into an argument over the wizards ability to tank? I'm not really into that. I was just stating how they might tank.
What he is that the Ranger and the Paladin are not, are the legendary weapon masters. The reason the fighter is the way itis is that there has always been a player base for the person who wants the character to be a swordsman (or whatever weapon)man all the way through, the Hercules etc. In other words the character whose main schtick is hitting things.
You want to play the Intelligent Fighter.. buff up the int just a smidge and play the Lore Warden archetype.
The legendary weapon master isn't allowed to do anything special though. He gets flat bonuses to hit and damage. He is handicapped outside of combat, and even inside of it he doesn't have options. Options are a powerful thing. The warblade with Stone hammer walks up to the golem and smashes it into shards with a powerful swing. The fighter walks up to it and... full attacks? And full attacks again. He also did that against the dragon. And the wizard. And whatever else he was within range of full attacking. Actually he doesn't even walk up to it and full attack, at best he can hope to vital strike. Lore warden isn't really a fix to his terribad skill points, it gives up a lot of what it means to be a fighter. It isn't even that intelligent, it doesn't have much if any intellect synergy and only gets as much skill points as the barbarian.
That's part of why people complain about them. I full attack is boring and lame and doesn't actually help solve problems very well. Is that supposed to be special or something? Think about it, is this any different from what someone else at the table brings?
1. What are you expecting? 2. You want the Fighters to be casting spells now? 3. Are your clerics and wizards taking over all of the other party roles at this point? 4. Are they abandoning their own roles to do so?
1. A more complete ruleset. The current one has rules for low-level play for casters and martials, and rules for high-level play for casters. That's only 3/4 of a game.
2. No.3. Not since I implemented Kirthfinder. Before that, yes, they were pulling all the weight.
4. No.
Many buffs are all day buffs. False life and Mage armor for example. Are we trying to get into an argument over the wizards ability to tank? I'm not really into that. I was just stating how they might tank.
How might they tank? Temporarily. And subparably (that's right I made up a word)
Casters have cool abilities and if they try hard they can do martials job for a time. But it's for a time. People focus on that brief window of circumstance and say look how powerful casters are.
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Imagine if Han had access to (and was able to fly) only a landspeeder in the first movie, instead of the Millenium Falcon, and your analogy will be more exact. Han's place in the story depended on his ship and his ability to fly it.And if you're reading 'Darths and Droids', he isn't even capable of that.
And yet he's the only one who came out of the films with a viable career. :P
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Like what? Basic Character interaction? Or are you the kind of player who's constantly tripping over his own feet because there are no game mechanics for tying your shoes? Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive modifiers aren't the foundation of roleplay.Outside of combat.. that's the thing called roleplaying and for the most part, it has very little to with character mechanics.If the things you do outside of combat actually matter then they absolutely should involve character mechanics. Feel free to jabber on about pop culture references in a fake accent for as long as you like though.
Bold added for emphasis.
Sure you can roleplay and interact all you please, but if you expect all of that to actually, say, change someone's mind about something? That means breaking out the dice. YOUR social skills aren't what matters when your character is the one actually talking.
Where are you coming up with these numbers? That's a crazy high buy. PF is built/play tested around a 15 point buy. Hell I'll let you go to 20. He doesnt have less will because you spent all your points on your high str and con. I'll even give you that they're the same because he prioritized int/con and you prioritized str/con, but he doesn't need the same high AC you do. THe character you just created has to melee because that stat array isn't going to do very well as an archer. So while you have to run in and get one attack he can stand back and buff(mirror image, blur, or fly). You never addressed the fact that he goes first and will get of such a buff(from a scroll to stop all that shr. wizard's crap) then your higher AC and HP mean nothing. the next round he can take out multiple opponents while you full attack those within reach all the while taking damage. afterwards you need to be healed which your character can't do and drain the party's resources while he cast from a scroll he made.IN a point buy game Con is the wizards 2nd best score. Its actually generally better than the martials because a wizard needs 1 ability score he can literally tank every other score except for dex and con.
As far as buff time goes what caster isn't set up with the best Init. in the group because, once again unlike a martial, he doesn't have to have any specific feats to do his job and can take improved int scorpion familiar that's plus 8 before any traits or dex. So baring the DM rolling exceptionally well he'll go first and have plenty of time to buff.
This is starting to get into "casters must be built a certain way" territory. What if the caster DOESN'T have the highest Init?
Lets run with your claim.
Did some theorycrafting. Level 6 Human Wizard. 20 Int, 17 Dex and 18 Con.
6 + 4X6(24) +5D6(15) +6FAVCLSS = 51HP
Lets take a level 6 Human Fighter. 20 Str, 18 Con, 12 Dex. He doesn't need as much Dex since he can wear armor. So he's got more points to burn which I'll put in Wisdom so he has a better Will save than your Wizard.
10 + 4X6(24) +5D10(25) +6FAVCLSS = 65HP. A significant difference.
The Wizards AC is 21.
+1 Mithral Buckler, +1 RoP, +1 AoNA, +4 Mage Armor, +3 Dex. He's spent 6005gp so he could buy more stuff. It cost spells to keep putting up Mage Armor. Spells he's NOT spending on the enemy.
The Fighters AC is 25.
+1 Full Plate, +1 Mithral Buckler, +1 RoP, +1 AoNA, +1 Dex. He's spent 8655gp so he could buy more stuff.
Without going too much deeper the Wizard has less health and less AC (and less Will). He'll be hit more often and drop sooner if he's buffing and there's no Fighter standing there to block for him.
We were discussing tanking. 20 point buy with Wis, Cha and some stat dumped to 7 because that's what you said. That ups it to 32 divided over 3 stats.
Both these characters are not in the same party. Each is the tank in their own respective party. The wizard gets off one buff via scroll (that's what you just said). Cool.
If it's mirror image and oh say 4 enemies, then at best you have 2 images left. Remember they poof even on a near miss. Next round the Wizard is open to full attacks cause he's right there.
Maybe it's Blur first. That's a 4/5 chance being hit. That means the Wiz is probably being hit. This is all with lower AC and less health. And he's doing NOTHING to decrease the attacks coming at him cause he's buffing.
Meanwhile the Fighter is hit less, can take more, and is dropping enemies to decrease the number of attacks coming at him.
It's interesting to see this trend all over the forums. In my group we have a tendency to play more melee characters than casters thanks to TV and Movies. They are the glory characters, the ones that the people celebrate first and cheer in public. Knights of legend, heroes of the tales, and so forth. Because of such glory we gravitate toward fighter, barbarian, rogue, and ranger (plus additional classes). However, the movies and TV normally are making wizards out to be villains and the like, clerics, when present, get much of the same treatment or they are the creepy guys who worship good and don't do much else. As a result the group avoids those classes when possible. More than a few times the groups have consisted off 100% melee with no healing or arcane ability at all. Those don't last long, but they are fun while they are around.
In my group we have a tendency to play more melee characters than casters thanks to TV and Movies. They are the glory characters, the ones that the people celebrate first and cheer in public. Knights of legend, heroes of the tales, and so forth. Because of such glory we gravitate toward fighter, barbarian, rogue, and ranger (plus additional classes). However, the movies and TV normally are making wizards out to be villains and the like, clerics, when present, get much of the same treatment or they are the creepy guys who worship good and don't do much else. As a result the group avoids those classes when possible. More than a few times the groups have consisted off 100% melee with no healing or arcane ability at all. Those don't last long, but they are fun while they are around.
It's false advertising! Sadly, the letter of the rules instead supports a world in which wizards and clerics sip mimosas and handle world affairs, and occasionally issue orders to their martial lackeys.
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I dunno? Maybe because its more fun to play/watch the guy with the fantastic explosions. Then again...watching samurai movies is just as fun...and knights battling demons from the abyss can be cool. I dunno.
All I know is this thread has given me an idea for a fighter character, built entirely to slay mages. He would travel the world and challenge casters to duels, in order to gain respect for what he calls the "path of the Naked Blade" which eschews reliance on any magic whatsoever. He'll be a fun NPC to toss at players, eh?
I dunno? Maybe because its more fun to play/watch the guy with the fantastic explosions. Then again...watching samurai movies is just as fun...and knights battling demons from the abyss can be cool. I dunno.
All I know is this thread has given me an idea for a fighter character, built entirely to slay mages. He would travel the world and challenge casters to duels, in order to gain respect for what he calls the "path of the Naked Blade" which eschews reliance on any magic whatsoever. He'll be a fun NPC to toss at players, eh?
Make sure he carries some form of spell resistance item on him, and stuff to bolster his saves. Would be a shame to build a great NPC idea and then watch him crash up onto the shores of magic island only to be shredded by the rocks.
Martial work, that is dealing HP damage to things so that they actually die, is called “janitor work” or “clean up”. This is meant to imply that it’s somehow lesser to the caster who cast a spell to make that job easier. Where did this idea come from?Because literally everyone can do what martials do (deal damage, use skills, take feats), while martials absolutely can't do what the others do.
Any witch worth their salt carries a scythe to coup de grace the guys they sleep. Clerics, Druids, Oracles, Inquisitors, Bards, Magi, Summoners, and even some rare few Sorcerers/Wizards can deal respectable damage. It doesn't have to be as high as a Fighter or Barbarian when the enemy is crippled.
DPS is just not that important. Even MMOs know that--they had to invent Rage Timers and things of that nature to give DPS responsibility, rather than the junk job the unskilled masses do.
So, yeah, it is a lesser job. It's not unique, it's not important or impressive--it's easy, and it actually means less in the long run than the spell that enabled them in the first place.
If everyone else is trying to do what the martial classes do then they are doing what they are supposed to do. As well while other classes can dish it out as good a martial character they tend to only be able to do that for 1 or 2 combats and after they are out resources. This is also only possible if given the time to prepare before combat begins. I know I can have Cleric out fight a fighter if given 3 round to buff up with spells with the right cleric build. Personally I prefer the fighter in the group to get into melee while I buff them instead.
If I were a martial in your game I would say to your caster "Anyone can do my job, huh? Cool. Here's my tower shield and my longsword....
And I would say "Fine", and spend some gold on some hirelings. Just a couple gold a day, and we wouldn't need to waste a share of the treasure on you. Or Leadership could come in handy. Back in the day, anybody could be replaced for a fee. Now, it's much more economical to just hire fighters.
Of course things are a bit different in PFS play, where the Venture Captains carefully pick the right people for the job...ahahahahahaa, sorry, I mean they pick the team out of a hat. So in a game where you might get a rogue, a ninja, a fighter and a gunslinger, you might as well try winging it with scrolls and UMD
to Quote "Q" from Skyfall
"Every now and then, a trigger has to be pulled."
And I would say "Fine", and spend some gold on some hirelings. Just a couple gold a day, and we wouldn't need to waste a share of the treasure on you. Or Leadership could come in handy. Back in the day, anybody could be replaced for a fee. Now, it's much more economical to just hire fighters.
Of course things are a bit different in PFS play, where the Venture Captains carefully pick the right people for the job...ahahahahahaa, sorry, I mean they pick the team out of a hat. So in a game where you might get a rogue, a ninja, a fighter and a gunslinger, you might as well try winging it with scrolls and UMD
Could not the martials also hire casters?
Could not the martials also hire casters?
They could, but spell casting services are far more expensive than goons.
What he is that the Ranger and the Paladin are not, are the legendary weapon masters. The reason the fighter is the way itis is that there has always been a player base for the person who wants the character to be a swordsman (or whatever weapon)man all the way through, the Hercules etc. In other words the character whose main schtick is hitting things.
And if the Fighter were that, it'd be less of an issue.
But things that "legendary weapon masters" and Hercules can do in fiction are not things the Fighter can do, which is great Feats of physical skill.
Besides the fact that he doesn't have the skill points to Climb and Swim properly while knowing how to tie his own shoes, skills don't do much in Pathfinder past a certain point. Every class should HAVE some, and they can be great in some circumstances (I don't think anyone would ever dispute Perception was a good skill.), but many skills are obsoleted by low level spell slots.
If they had some fantastical effects, it would kill two birds with one stone, the Fighter could have unmatched physical prowess (not just "I swing a sword good"), able to leap 50 feet with no issues or swim up a waterfall.
But no, skills MUST be mundane because the people who deny the caster/martial disparity are usually perfectly aware of it and wish for it to continue into the future.
And yet he's the only one who came out of the films with a viable career. :PImagine if Han had access to (and was able to fly) only a landspeeder in the first movie, instead of the Millenium Falcon, and your analogy will be more exact. Han's place in the story depended on his ship and his ability to fly it.And if you're reading 'Darths and Droids', he isn't even capable of that.
Please, tell me more about how Mark Hamill never did anything else after Star Wars.
Voice acting is still a viable career.
Both those spells last minutes. Who's protecting you while your busy buffing yourself for 2 rounds? Or did your GM announce that a fight was about to happen?
If your Sorc or Druid have a high AC, you probably sacked something else. And your wizard with his d6 HD and low ass Con score is ok taking hits to the face? Sort of doubt it.
It's called a perception check. And last I checked, casting Mirror Image (or Vanish) only took a standard action. Less if you're high level.
And a Wizard with a low Con score? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
It is to laugh. Since Wizards only NEED Int and Con, and unlike a martial the Con belt doesn't take up the same slot as the one they need for their primary ability score (Str), Wizards tend to have the highest Con in the game!
If everyone else is trying to do what the martial classes do then they are doing what they are supposed to do. As well while other classes can dish it out as good a martial character they tend to only be able to do that for 1 or 2 combats and after they are out resources. This is also only possible if given the time to prepare before combat begins. I know I can have Cleric out fight a fighter if given 3 round to buff up with spells with the right cleric build. Personally I prefer the fighter in the group to get into melee while I buff them instead.Except this isn't even really close to being true come the mid levels. Have a look over the other thread on this issue. I have posted three different characters, Battle Oracle, Druid and Sorcerer. The Sorcerer and Druid both do the fighters job better than he with no buffing at all. The oracle is close. With a single buff round they all go sailing right past him.
Also on the buffing issue having your cleric buff the fighter is a bit of a waste as the best Cleric buffs are either group wide (Blessing of Fervour) or personal (Divine Favour, Righteous Might).
Both the oracle and the sorcerer can't do the job. So unless someone wants to play a martial druid, you need a real martial in your party.
Both those spells last minutes. Who's protecting you while your busy buffing yourself for 2 rounds? Or did your GM announce that a fight was about to happen?
If your Sorc or Druid have a high AC, you probably sacked something else. And your wizard with his d6 HD and low ass Con score is ok taking hits to the face? Sort of doubt it.
It's called a perception check. And last I checked, casting Mirror Image (or Vanish) only took a standard action. Less if you're high level.
And a Wizard with a low Con score? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
It is to laugh. Since Wizards only NEED Int and Con, and unlike a martial the Con belt doesn't take up the same slot as the one they need for their primary ability score (Str), Wizards tend to have the highest Con in the game!
Yeah no. If you are casting buffs during a fight with anything more than a free or swift action, then you can't fill the martial role. And even then, if you are blowing quickened spells every fight, you just don't have the staying power a martial needs to do their job.
Yeah no. If you are casting buffs during a fight with anything more than a free or swift action, then you can't fill the martial role. And even then, if you are blowing quickened spells every fight, you just don't have the staying power a martial needs to do their job.Both those spells last minutes. Who's protecting you while your busy buffing yourself for 2 rounds? Or did your GM announce that a fight was about to happen?
If your Sorc or Druid have a high AC, you probably sacked something else. And your wizard with his d6 HD and low ass Con score is ok taking hits to the face? Sort of doubt it.
It's called a perception check. And last I checked, casting Mirror Image (or Vanish) only took a standard action. Less if you're high level.
And a Wizard with a low Con score? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
It is to laugh. Since Wizards only NEED Int and Con, and unlike a martial the Con belt doesn't take up the same slot as the one they need for their primary ability score (Str), Wizards tend to have the highest Con in the game!
They're called metamagic rods, son. And, since I can craft them myself (me being a wizard/caster) I get them half price.
Or, if the monster can't fly, I cast fly and then I get as much buff time as I want. Not that I need it. A high level caster, let's say level 13 for funsies, will have minimum 30 spell slots a day. Likely more. Assuming he spends like 4 for a fight (a liberal estimate) and has 5 day-long buffs going, he can survive 6 fights.
Remember that we're not talking about a single caster, but a group of 4 casters. One caster can cast a group buff, another two can cast an enemy debuff, the last one can summon a host of pets.
When the enemy goes, and they're either blinded or slowed (or both) if not worse, why am I even afraid of them anymore.
Both the oracle and the sorcerer can't do the job. So unless someone wants to play a martial druid, you need a real martial in your party.Continuing to deny reality isn't helping your position.
Yeah, I'm not sure why coup de grace-ing sleeping or otherwise debilitated opponents should cost my group 1/4 of our treasure.
Here's a real question: how often do you have combats where you can't pre-buff? What's the proportion of encounters? Let's say you have reasonable scouting capability (rogue/ninja/ranger/class with stealth ranks, familiar, invisibility, divination). Would you claim that that the proportion of pre-meditated (at least one buff round) combats is more than 50%? Less than 50%? About 50%?
I hear a lot of dialogue to the degree of "what about when you CAN'T buff? What then, casters?". And I'm certainly not saying that this never comes up, but in my experience it's not all that rare to have opportunities to pre-cast buff spells. This isn't even considering hour/level spells like Overland Flight that are almost permanent by the time you're able to cast them.
Both the oracle and the sorcerer can't do the job. So unless someone wants to play a martial druid, you need a real martial in your party.
Sorcerer? Maaaybe.
Oracle can't do the martial job? You know, the class with 3/4 BaB, lots of buff spells (dat Divine spell list)?
Who has access to things like being able to move up to his speed as an Immediate action, scaling Weapon Focus/Improved Critical/Greater Weapon Focus for one Revelation, Swift action healing, and DR 10/Adamantine (as well as Martial Weapon and Heavy Armor proficiency for another Revelation)?
Not seeing it, TBH.
Here's a real question: how often do you have combats where you can't pre-buff? What's the proportion of encounters? Let's say you have reasonable scouting capability (rogue/ninja/ranger/class with stealth ranks, familiar, invisibility, divination). Would you claim that that the proportion of pre-meditated (at least one buff round) combats is more than 50%? Less than 50%? About 50%?
I hear a lot of dialogue to the degree of "what about when you CAN'T buff? What then, casters?". And I'm certainly not saying that this never comes up, but in my experience it's not all that rare to have opportunities to pre-cast buff spells. This isn't even considering hour/level spells like Overland Flight that are almost permanent by the time you're able to cast them.
Hmm encounter where I can't prebuff spells that are not 10min/lvl or 1hour/level
Hmmmmm, I believe all of them. I may have had a handful of encounter EVER that I could precast a 1 round/lvl buff.
Both the oracle and the sorcerer can't do the job. So unless someone wants to play a martial druid, you need a real martial in your party.
Sorcerer? Maaaybe.
Oracle can't do the martial job? You know, the class with 3/4 BaB, lots of buff spells (dat Divine spell list)?
Who has access to things like being able to move up to his speed as an Immediate action, scaling Weapon Focus/Improved Critical/Greater Weapon Focus for one Revelation, Swift action healing, and DR 10/Adamantine (as well as Martial Weapon and Heavy Armor proficiency for another Revelation)?
Not seeing it, TBH.
Your damage is still garbage without buffs. Buffs are too limited for someone in the martial role to use reliably.
Not too mention buring all of your spells on combat puts you in the same place as any other martial when it comes to out of combat utility. For an oracle its even worse, because every time they contribute out of combat, they lose a combat encounter of effectiveness. The druid just wildshapes to be on par or better. Sorcerers and Oracles might as well have played fighter.
Both the oracle and the sorcerer can't do the job. So unless someone wants to play a martial druid, you need a real martial in your party.
Sorcerer? Maaaybe.
Oracle can't do the martial job? You know, the class with 3/4 BaB, lots of buff spells (dat Divine spell list)?
Who has access to things like being able to move up to his speed as an Immediate action, scaling Weapon Focus/Improved Critical/Greater Weapon Focus for one Revelation, Swift action healing, and DR 10/Adamantine (as well as Martial Weapon and Heavy Armor proficiency for another Revelation)?
Not seeing it, TBH.
Your damage is still garbage without buffs. Buffs are too limited for someone in the martial role to use reliably.
Not too mention buring all of your spells on combat puts you in the same place as any other martial when it comes to out of combat utility. For an oracle its even worse, because every time they contribute out of combat, they lose a combat encounter of effectiveness. The druid just wildshapes to be on par or better. Sorcerers and Oracles might as well have played fighter.
considering most oracle buffs are spells of 5th level and lower, and the fact it isn't hard to have a 20 cha by 10th level after items with a strategic race choice.
and your typical encounter day is 4 encounters, of what, 6th level and higher spells, are being used to cast augmented variations of low level spells.
at 10th level, you can have up divine power and righteous might for the majority of the encounters of a typical adventuring day, just both buffs waste time unless you use an overpriced rod you most likely won't have.
at 8th level, with an 18 charisma, divine power isn't an issue either. unless you fight 5 or more challenging encounters per day.
it takes some effort.
but spells are more renewable than arrows, poison, or potions.
And still less renewable than Great Sword.
And still less renewable than Great Sword.
I'll take your greatsword and raise you a grease! Literally, I'm taking it from your hands. They don't have the best reflex save usually...
Spell longevity is weird. You can cast a bunch of spells with long durations and a variety uses and go all day(Summons), and sometimes a single spell ends the combat(Color spray at level 1-4). Its really hard to measure, and as you level you only get more of them. In 3.5 I went through and tried to nab as many hour/lvl spells as I could, and it turned out there were quiet a few. Not sure how many there are in pathfinder though, but I'm not really willing to read through that many books again. Was cool to have an hour/lvl spell for every level I played my transmutation wizard though.
So... about them martials. Why should I respect them? What do they do that stands out?
And still less renewable than Great Sword.I'll take your greatsword and raise you a grease! Literally, I'm taking it from your hands. They don't have the best reflex save usually...
Spell longevity is weird. You can cast a bunch of spells with long durations and a variety uses and go all day(Summons), and sometimes a single spell ends the combat(Color spray at level 1-4). Its really hard to measure, and as you level you only get more of them. In 3.5 I went through and tried to nab as many hour/lvl spells as I could, and it turned out there were quiet a few. Not sure how many there are in pathfinder though, but I'm not really willing to read through that many books again. Was cool to have an hour/lvl spell for every level I played my transmutation wizard though.
So... about them martials. Why should I respect them? What do they do that stands out?
i know a wizard's spellbook can be stolen
but a fighter is still vulnerable to sunder checks, disarm techniques, rust monsters, and a variety of things.
hindered more so than the tier 2 classes, the sorcerer, oracle, and summoner,
in fact, the 2 classes hindered least by sunder and disarm, are druids and sorcerers.
in fact, the 2 classes hindered least by sunder and disarm, are druids and sorcerers.
Wizards can keep their spellbook on another plane if they really wanted to, the game does give them quiet a few ways to protect themselves, and they don't have to keep it on them during the adventuring day with most of them. A fighter without a sword goes "D'oh!" and loses out. Mind you most of the martials are pretty screwed without a weapon, but fighters aren't as good at picking up a club as a barbarian.
Druids still need mistletoe actually, divine focus for druids! Not sure why someone would go out of their way to steal mistletoe, nor why a druid wouldn't buy or harvest loads of it because its cheap and easy. Caster oracles may not focus on a weapon and just be unloading spells.
Edit: So... a wizard can put his spellbook on another plane. A fighter can...?
in fact, the 2 classes hindered least by sunder and disarm, are druids and sorcerers.Wizards can keep their spellbook on another plane if they really wanted to, the game does give them quiet a few ways to protect themselves, and they don't have to keep it on them during the adventuring day with most of them. A fighter without a sword goes "D'oh!" and loses out. Mind you most of the martials are pretty screwed without a weapon, but fighters aren't as good at picking up a club as a barbarian.
Druids still need mistletoe actually, divine focus for druids! Not sure why someone would go out of their way to steal mistletoe, nor why a druid wouldn't buy or harvest loads of it because its cheap and easy. Caster oracles may not focus on a weapon and just be unloading spells.
Edit: So... a wizard can put his spellbook on another plane. A fighter can...?
a fighter can do nothing in this scenario but use an inferior weapon with countless wasted feats down the drain as well as a ranger without favored enemy, or can fight unarmed as poorly as a monk without flurry.
and even though a wizard's spellbook defenses aren't unstoppable, they help the wizard against theives better than the fighter using an improvised bluegeoning weapon against a rhakshasa,
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This is a roleplaying game. The idea is to play a role that sounds fun and interesting and to have fun playing it.
Which is better or not is largely a factor of who is DMing and what their DM style is. Some DM's are more caster friendly some less so.
I tend to run a dark age style game. That means limited magic item availibality. Much harder to make them. And no magic item shops. For the most part you have to find items in my games.
This is a roleplaying game. The idea is to play a role that sounds fun and interesting and to have fun playing it.
We know its a roleplay game, but I can make a roleplaying game where the martial characters get cool things and tearing apart the universe is reserved for rituals and DM fiat or in the least taking exetremes. What we have atm is martial characters who full attack, get few options even from feats, and wizards who can bend the universe on a daily basis. Does that make sense? Never been a fan of wizards who rip reality a new one standing next to the guy who doesn't even get enough skills to tie his own shoes. Just silly. Works for narrative, but not very well for cooperative.
The game actually isn't that great for a low magic game. Casters tend to throw things around too much, and the classes require magic items to keep up with the magic item treadmill(expectations put in place, that happens to deny items from being cool bonuses and instead makes them expected to kill whatever your up against next to get the upgrade to fight what you kill next to get the upgrade...)
I don't know what more you want out of a martial. They hit hard and are tanky. What more do you want?Stuff. I want them to do stuff. Most importantly I'd like them to play a role outside of combat and not be overshadowed(or even replaced!) by casters.
Is this like some version of the stormwind fallacy? Building a fighter is mutually exclusive with building a character that can contribute to a campaign in any other way than besplatting thine enemies and soaking up their attempts to lay a besplatting on all the 'real characters'?
Give it up, nothing is going to convince Marthkus even when you put the numbers directly in front of him.
Especially when you put up numbers that prove yourself wrong.