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I am readin some people claim that now your animal compain is a magical beast and the HD use a d10, the bab is full HD.
Does it really improve the AC that much? Or does it now just count as a mgical beast and retain the HD and bab from the druid chart?
Celestial Servant
Rather than being a normal animal or beast, your companion or familiar hails from the heavenly realms.
Prerequisites: Aasimar, animal companion, familiar, or mount class feature.
Benefit: Your animal companion, familiar, or mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast, though you may still treat it as an animal when using Handle Animal, wild empathy, or any other spells or class abilities that specifically affect animals.
Nothing? Sad.
Given I may be the "some people claim" you referred to, I'm not sure if you wanted to hear from me, but just stating my case; pretty much a re-post from the other thread:
Celestial Servant
Rather than being a normal animal or beast, your companion or familiar hails from the heavenly realms.
Prerequisites: Aasimar, animal companion, familiar, or mount class feature.Benefit: Your animal companion, familiar, or mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast, though you may still treat it as an animal when using Handle Animal, wild empathy, or any other spells or class abilities that specifically affect animals.
Becoming a Magical Beast if it means anything, means that it's BAB becomes equal to its HD, which is unlike animals, which have BAB equal to 3/4 HD.
(and HD becomes d10 instead of d8 and you gain darkvision)
Seems pretty clear that the Chort is right.
Now the AC uses the druids stats. I am not sure if becoming a magical animal overrides the druid AC stat block is the question. Since they have a decided BAB for the AC. Grnated it is off the 3/4s rule. I would prefer a ruling to where each DM has a right to decide and table variation.
Chort I appreciate your answer. I have a PFS character will have this next level and I was looking for a reason why this would or would not be true.
Above is the answer other people have given me why it does not. So When I come to the table with a buffed AC. I want to be able to defend it. So I am playing the devils advocate to be as sure as I can.
Chort I hope you are right. That would make the beast much more pwoerfull.
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I know you're arguing that it says it's a magical beast so it uses the hd, but I'd say that the only thing that's happened is that a) you apply the template and b) you change it from type animal to magical beast.
The type changing doesn't grant it a higher HD.
Until there's a ruling one way or the other, I'd rule it on the least beneficial route.
Well this is a condundrum. The table in the Core Rulebook is set up assuming that your animal companion is an animal. Animals use a d8 HD while magical beasts use a d10 HD. Both are pretty specific rules so it's difficult to see which one takes over. I'll have to ponder on this one.
Well this is a condundrum. The table in the Core Rulebook is set up assuming that your animal companion is an animal. Animals use a d8 HD while magical beasts use a d10 HD. Both are pretty specific rules so it's difficult to see which one takes over. I'll have to ponder on this one.
Yes, I can see both sides of the arguement so I am looking for something definitive so when I bring it a PFS table people do not think I am trying to cheat. I will use the lessor of the two until I know for sure.
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I'd say that since the animal companion entry specifically states what hd your companion uses, you use it, regardless of it being a magical beast.
The only things the feat does is add the celestial template and change it's type (which is relevant for certain abilities) but makes no mention of your companion getting any other qualities or additional magical beast traits...
I'd say that since the animal companion entry specifically states what hd your companion uses, you use it, regardless of it being a magical beast.
The only things the feat does is add the celestial template and change it's type (which is relevant for certain abilities) but makes no mention of your companion getting any other qualities or additional magical beast traits...
There is no mention that it does not alter the hit die or bab either. Applying rules that you think is intended is not PFS legal. Where they are abigueous each DM can decide. I would prefer to know definitively.
So what would the benefit of an animal becoming a magical beast be, if not to increase their stats? We're talking PFS here, so it would go from 4.5 HP per HD to 5 HP per HD. So you'd gain a whole 5 HP if you were level 9. You would also gain +2 BAB. Not sure how I feel about one feat awarding you the half of the effect of Toughness while also giving you more attack bonus than Weapon Focus (and applying it to every natural attack).
Not all feats are created equal. There are feats that are useless and almost completely trumped by other feats.
Comparing how "good" it is does not make a ruling stand. So far from what I see it is up to each DM to decide, as it ambigeous.
plus it would be 5.5 HP since half of d10 is 5.5(you can not roll a zero value). So it would be 8 HP at level 9 and a +3 bab.
As a side note that feat is too good to pass up for an assimar with a companion if it does do all of that.
I'd say that because the feat otherwise stinks, yes.
Hardly. The resistances gained make the feat plenty worthwhile.
RAW-wise...it's uncertain. The AC rules tell you the HD and derived stats for your companion. I'd say the attack bonus and HP mentioned are helpfully provided information - in which case a Magical Beast would disregard it - but there's enough wiggle room to call it definitions instead.
I am, however, absolutely certain that there will not be an official ruling to to support the increased HD and attack bonus; animal companions are already plenty powerful.
If only the writer of the feat had cracked open his f#$*ing Pathfinder Bestiary, instead of going by memory, we wouldn't be having this discussion; the celestial creature template in 3.5 changed an animal's type to magical beast, but the PF celestial template doesn't.
I don't think changing the type means anything except for favored enemy and bane. Animal Companions are not progressing as animals, and their type isn't the determining factor for the progression. If type determined non-racial progression then Aasimars automatically get martial weapon proficiency for being outsiders.
I don't think changing the type means anything except for favored enemy and bane. Animal Companions are not progressing as animals, and their type isn't the determining factor for the progression. If type determined non-racial progression then Aasimars automatically get martial weapon proficiency for being outsiders.
Certain spells would effect them differently too. A druid castign charm animal would be laughed at.
Anyone else care to Faq this so we can get an answer?
Ditto.
Awesome thank you very much
PFS and Mike Brock are very specific about what is allowed. Lets look at classes offering mounts. For medium classes horse pony, or if dM allows other mounts. In all situations similar to this, all that is allowed are what is specifically called out. They are very consistent with this. In PFS the only things allowed are what the abilities specifically call out. So no d10's for hitdice.
I am sorry but I have no idea what your point means.
Bump.
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PFS and Mike Brock are very specific about what is allowed. Lets look at classes offering mounts. For medium classes horse pony, or if dM allows other mounts. In all situations similar to this, all that is allowed are what is specifically called out. They are very consistent with this. In PFS the only things allowed are what the abilities specifically call out. So no d10's for hitdice.I am sorry but I have no idea what your point means.
What Titania was probably getting at, was that in PFS a feat or ability does exactly what it says it does, no more. In this instance, since it doesn't actually say it improves the hit die and BAB, it probably doesn't.
This feat was probably meant to emulate the paladin mount ability which states "At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it."
That additional verbage was probably removed to conserve word count by a writer or editor who didn't realize the can of worms they were opening when they decided to leave those 9 words out. After all, it actually takes a fair amount of familiarity with the game to come to the conclusion that a certain reading of that feat could mean you get all of those bonuses not directly referenced in the feat itself or the Celestial template.
I would hazard that RAI is definitely not that this feat increases the BAB, hit die, and provides Darkvision to your mount in addition to the Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance and Smite the feat already gives. Even with the massive downsides inherent in your Animal Companion having Spell Resistance, that would still make this feat ridiculously overpowered compared to virtually any other feat you could take to improve your Animal Companion, especially since it's only prereqs are being a race and having a companion.
Using RAI is a poor excuse for an answer. Allowing DMs to use their understanding of RAI is at the least idiotic in a living setting. I have seen some horrible DM decisions using RAI. Infact there are numerous rules and psots to run as written.
Mike brock does not make rules for pathfinder. He is the PFS GM. He decides what rules are legal. I am asking for a direct RAW ruling. Mike Brock has better things to do then make little judgements like this.
Now it definately gives darkvision. It says right in the template.
Now I am looking for clairification so this can not be misunderstood.
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Using RAI is a poor excuse for an answer. Allowing DMs to use their understanding of RAI is at the least idiotic in a living setting. I have seen some horrible DM decisions using RAI. Infact there are numerous rules and psots to run as written.
Mike brock does not make rules for pathfinder. He is the PFS GM. He decides what rules are legal. I am asking for a direct RAW ruling. Mike Brock has better things to do then make little judgements like this.
Now it definately gives darkvision. It says right in the template.
Now I am looking for clairification so this can not be misunderstood.
The Template doesn't include BAB, hit die, etc. though. And having discussions about RAW and RAI and comparing them to existing abilities/feats/etc. is how your threads last long enough to catch dev attention so someone dips in and gives an answer.
And implying that the Devs are lower on the totem pole than Mike Brock is not the way to endear yourself to them and get an answer. If you want to know how your ability or feat works for the purposes of PFS, ask your Venture Captain or Mike. If you want your question to be addressed by the devs, have enough conversation about the subject that they actually see it as a Frequently Asked Question, and not a small but vocal minority clamoring for their immediate attention.
Ssalarn. I did not place anyone above or below anyone else. Mike brocks job is PFS. Not makign rules for the PFS world at every debatable rule. In his PFS system he agrees with the devs to make a rule for the game system as a whole.
I would argue is does not alert bab and the hitdie either, but there is enough loose wording to be read the other way as well.
I honestly do not trust VOs for rulings at gencon. I had a VC refuse to look at the rule book to see he was wrong on his rulings with being dragged without feats causes the dragged to be provoke, and that total defense is a standard not a full round action.
The majority of questions I have asked VOs advice on they have been wrong.
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Ssalarn. I did not place anyone above or below anyone else. Mike brocks job is PFS. Not makign rules for the PFS world at every debatable rule. In his PFS system he agrees with the devs to make a rule for the game system as a whole.
I would argue is does not alert bab and the hitdie either, but there is enough loose wording to be read the other way as well.
I honestly do not trust VOs for rulings at gencon. I had a VC refuse to look at the rule book to see he was wrong on his rulings with being dragged without feats causes the dragged to be provoke, and that total defense is a standard not a full round action.
The majority of questions I have asked VOs advice on they have been wrong.
I feel you, there's just a couple things you can do to get the attention you want. Discussing RAI vs. RAW both helps establish the arguments for both sides and may bring in other people who initially didn't realize there was even any debate on the subject.
There's also like a dozen other threads on this topic (most recently the "Celestial Servant, Eidolon's just got hosed" thread) where this subject was FAQ'd a few times. Joining an existing thread that already accumulated some FAQs would have been a much better way to get this addressed. The devs are going to look for three things to draw them in:
1) A topic they both have some interest in, and an opinion on
2) Threads that are staying in circulation for an extended period of time
and 3) Threads that are accumulating a large number of FAQ requests.
You can't do much about the first one, but the second and third ones are definitely within your power to influence.
Thank you very much Ssalarn for helping comment and our points are very valid.
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If it says it becomes a Magical Beast, then by all means...or are yall saying Magical Beasts don't have these?
A magical beast has the following features.
d10 Hit Die.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for magical beasts: Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, Swim.
Many people think that is not what is intended. I hate table variance and I would love an official ruling.
Well thats how it's written. If it becomes a Magical Beast then it no longer follows the rules for being an animal and follows the rules for being a Magical Beast. By RAW thats how it is.
Darkvision, DR, ERs, Smite, and SR for a feat. Seems worth it to me. I'll be in the camp of no increase to HD or BAB. Seems to be projecting to me.
The counter arguement is that the rules for Animal Companions specifially says 8hd and 3/4s bab. Also the allowance of vermin animal companion using different stats as well.
Yes, but the page for Vermin companions specifically states their advancement of HD and such. I don't see why being upgraded to a Magical Beast would still limit you. Feats are generally exceptions to normal rules anyways.
Scavion I agree with you that the ruling seems to favor the benefit to the companion.
Other call features that make things magical beasts specially say "becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it." While celestial servant does not.
The arguement well it must/should/intended to have it is not rules as written.
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Gaining the Celestial Template doesn't change the HD. The magical beast 'rules' you are referring to are the build rules for creating a creature of that type. I imagine there are exceptions, but unless the creature is being rebuilt from the ground up there is nothing indicating the stats should be changed. Animal companion, Familiars and Mounts all have strict stats that they adhere to and redoing the stats makes no sense for at least one of the options. Familiars are treated as having a certain amount of hit dice, but their hit points are figured out in a completely different manner.
The feat does what it says it does. It grants the template and changes the creatures type to magical beast (if it wasn't otherwise, again familiar) to make allowances for what can target/affect it. The feat doesn't say rebuild your familiar/mount/animal companion to have these stats, it just says it becomes a magical beast. The class ability that grants the companion/familiar/mount still dictates the stats. You're altering a preexisting creature to gain a type, not creating a whole new creature using the general rules in the bestiary.
Oh.
So, you gain the feat, dismisses your current companion, gain a new one.
Now, does it have Magical Beast HD and BAB?
No, it is still a companion of some sort first and foremost before the feat comes into play. You dismiss the companion, you get the companion again, it gets modified by the feat. It is still a template and effect being applied to something already in existence.
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It adds the Celestial template and changes it's type to Magical Beast.
These are separate effects.
Why would the fact that it is a companion alter the effects of a type change?
Vermin companions are still treated as Vermin, and the relevant effects of being said type apply.
Does it not have the HD, Saves, and BAB of the Vermin type?
What about the Sable Company Marine Ranger's Hippogriff companion?
Does it not have the HD, Saves, and BAB of the Magical Beast type?
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Design Manager
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What about the Sable Company Marine Ranger's Hippogriff companion?
Does it not have the HD, Saves, and BAB of the Magical Beast type?
Actually, I can't find any evidence that the Hippogriff uses anything other than normal Animal Companion advancement...
It adds the Celestial template and changes it's type to Magical Beast.
These are separate effects.
Why would the fact that it is a companion alter the effects of a type change?
Vermin companions are still treated as Vermin, and the relevant effects of being said type apply.
Does it not have the HD, Saves, and BAB of the Vermin type?
What about the Sable Company Marine Ranger's Hippogriff companion?
Does it not have the HD, Saves, and BAB of the Magical Beast type?
It has what the write up tells you it has, each companion would have appropriate stats per its table/write up. The feat then comes into play and adds a template and adjusts the type. That is all it says to do, there is nothing stated about rebuilding the 'companion' with bigger HD or different BAB. The specific rules about creating the companion trump the general guidelines for creating a creature of a particular type. The companion has these particular stats, depending on your class level/pertient abilities, and the feat alters its type (and allows class abilities to still work on the companion regardless of this change) and grants this template. It is simple, concise and literally all it tells you to do.
As for the archtype, again it has what the write says it has, you'll notice that HD aren't listed as being any different than the normal companions if you take the time to actually read it...
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I have read it.
In the end, it never states if a companion's HD, Saves, and BAB, is effected by type.
It could be, the listed companion's HD, Saves, and BAB, are unchanged.
Although, these were written when companions were of the animal type only.
At this point, we cannot say for certain if HD, Saves, and BAB remain unchanged with absolute certainty.
Seems FAQ worthy to me.
I have read it.
In the end, it never states if a companion's HD, Saves, and BAB, is effected by type.
It could be, the listed companion's HD, Saves, and BAB, are unchanged.
Although, these were written when companions were of the animal type only.
At this point, we cannot say for certain if HD, Saves, and BAB remain unchanged with absolute certainty.
Seems FAQ worthy to me.
If it doesn't state it changes, would it not stay the same in an exception based ruleset?
Is there some officially published 'companion' that would make you say that this rather unlikely change comes into play for some reason?
Basically is there any real reason why you believe this should occur?
The lack of the feat saying these tightly controlled statistics change would seem to me to make it pretty certain they don't change and remain the same as the write up, at least to me.
I believe that the rules for Animal Companions override the Magical Beast rules. In this case, the Animal Companion table specifically notes down the BAB of an animal companion, and this overrides whatever the creature's Type says it has.
Similar scenario. Be a wizard with a hawk familiar, who takes Improved Familiar to get a Faerie Dragon. While the Dragon type says that it gets a dozen skills as Class Skills, the Familiar rules make clear that it only gets fly, acrobatics etc. The familiar rules override the type rules. It's also why the Int score prescribed the familiar table overrides the creature's Int score.