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So, putting together a Stealth based Hobgoblin Ranger/Fighter.
I have Hellcat Stealth and Dampen Presence, plus a pair of Boots of the Soft Step.
Now, my hope, is to be able to hit enemies, then slink off, wait, then hit them again.
Do I have all the tools needed to do this?
Is there any other advice to facilitate this?
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You'll probably want to put some minor focus in bluff as it can be used to distract people observing you before you make a subsequent stealth check to hide again. It won't come up for you very often with Hellcat Stealth, but it may come up.
A trick with Hellcat stealth is to carry at least normal light around with you. An Amulet of Hidden Light can be useful for this. As long as the foe is outside 60' they don't see the light, but you're in normal light at least so Hellcat Stealth away. Just be wary of that -10.
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Shadowdancer eats up three feats that don't work for the build.
I am thinking of some Oil of Negate Aroma.
you can get potions of negate aroma for I believe 50 gp as they are level 1 (again, I believe) So as long as you are aware of the creature having sent you are fine, its blindsense/sight that will be harder to negate.
Ninja'd!
A scroll of Undead Anatomy maybe useful to you. Turn yourself into one of the many incorporeal undead. Then use solid objects for cover and/or concealment for stealth checks.
Be a goblin instead. You can start at first level with a +20 stealth check with minimal investment (1 rank, 14 dex in point buy before racial bonus, then e erything else is bonuses).
Why was the shadow bloodline suggested? I dont see how it helps.
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Yeah, I looked at the Shadow Bloodline, and while the first ability kind of sucks, the second ability I would get is worth it.
It still is basically eating three feats, like Shadowdancer would, but allows me to keep the full BAB, and up other class abilities.
I thought hobgoblins already had darkvision, and darkvision is not really worth 3 feats IMHO. You can get goggles that give you that.
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The Shadowdancer feat requirements are somewhat annoying, that's true, but you get a lot for it in three levels. Which is only sacrificing 1 BAB. Also, they're all Combat Feats, so getting them is doable for a Fighter.
- Perception, Acrobatics and Stealth as class skills, and a nice chunk of skill points to go with it.
- HIPS (removing some of the need for Hellcat Stealth).
- Darkvision: now you can be a Human (Feat, Skill Points) or Half-Elf (Skill Focus) without fuss.
- Evasion, Uncanny Dodge
- Rogue Talent: maybe there's a few useful ones, that help you move faster while stealthed?
- Summon Shadow: this is big. It's a pretty nasty critter that can do a lot for you.
I think the Shadowdancer's abilities are particularly powerful when paired with a Fighter; they give a Rogue or Ranger very little, but there's almost no overlap with Fighters.
So I'm unsure of how this works out. Clearly with Hellcat Stealth you can Stealth even in normal or bright light conditions as if you were unobserved. So you do so and then you move to attack. Per the new rules, after you attack stealth breaks and you are visible and detected by the enemy. So were good up till here. Makes total sense. What happens next is where I'm a little confused on. Because you have stealth and a light source on you, you can use Hellcat Stealth to stealth again? Suddenly vanishing again even though you just attacked? Or do you have to try to bluff them first and distract them, then you can use Hellcat Stealth to disappear? What type of action is the bluff to distract?
Even if you have to invest heavily into Stealth and Bluff to make it work, it seems like you could pump up these skills so high that you could become virtually undetectable and attack and disappear every round such that those without advanced sense will never be able to retaliate. I just want to make sure that isn't the case.
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(*This is how I read and understand it disclaimer here*)
Yes, that's how I think it works, but here's the tricky part. You have to have light on you to do it. Many areas have less than normal light, meaning the baddies still know, generally, where you are even if they can't see you (unless they're 60' away from that nifty amulet) In this case I would treat the stealther as Invisible (without the +20 to the check), almost like an infinite use Vanish ninja trick. He has consealment and the miss chance that goes with it. If the enemies are familiar with this feat, then they also know that it is very easy to defeat. A CR 1 drow with its Darkness spell-like can shut this down fast.
Again, counter points won't offend me. Pick this opinion apart at will.
Not Darkvision. Hobgoblins have that.
Hide in Plain Sight.
I meant second ability available through the second Eldritch feat.
ok..I see. :)
(*This is how I read and understand it disclaimer here*)
Yes, that's how I think it works, but here's the tricky part. You have to have light on you to do it. Many areas have less than normal light, meaning the baddies still know, generally, where you are even if they can't see you (unless they're 60' away from that nifty amulet) In this case I would treat the stealther as Invisible (without the +20 to the check), almost like an infinite use Vanish ninja trick. He has consealment and the miss chance that goes with it. If the enemies are familiar with this feat, then they also know that it is very easy to defeat. A CR 1 drow with its Darkness spell-like can shut this down fast.Again, counter points won't offend me. Pick this opinion apart at will.
The only thing I can see mucking this up is what type of action is it to distract someone with bluff to try and stealth? Without having a clear answer I would (for my home games) say that it is a standard action to distract and hide (with Hellcat Stealth). That way you can never remain perpetually undetected. Because otherwise it's better than Vanishing Trick, it's almost as good as greater invisibility. The main drawback is you can't full attack with the benefits of being hidden (no full round sneak attack), but it doesn't use any limited resources and can't be dispelled.
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The stealth rules say typically no action. The only action mentioned is a Move to recover stealth after a snipe attack, but that makes little sense for that kind of action. I'd say swift at best, but none can be argued as well. This seems to be DM territory.
Consider instead a 1 level Wizard dip. You get all those spell triggers, the Scribe Scroll feat, access to a ton if minor but useful spells (like Detect Magic, Alarm and Shield) and most importantly a Familiar - many give solid stealth bonuses
A wand of Improved Invisibility would go a long way, no?
With hellcat stealth though you don't have to worry about distracting them. Just disappear before their eyes. That's what HiPS does, right?
Honestly I'm not sure. The normal rules are you can't stealth while being observed. Hellcat Stealth actually implies that you can as does Hide in Plain Sight. However, I see this being a problem and I just wouldn't let it fly at my table. Though, that does appear to be the interaciton by RAW.
I think I would just add the rule to my hometable that you can't stealth in the same round after making an attack. You still retain 90% of the benefit of HiPS and Hellcat Stealth without the earth shattering result of being virtually invisible.
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Okay.
The Shadow Well ability gained from Improved Eldritch Heritage will allow HiPS in any shadow or darkness.
With the combination of all, I will be able to use Stealth, in Normal Light, Bright Light, Low Light, Darkness, even while being observed and without cover or concealment.
So, turn post attack, Bluff(as a move action), then move(any where), and Stealth as part of that move action.
Have I got this all correct?
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Ok. I missed the part where you had to move.
I guess that kinda makes sence.
But I'm still a little caught up on the fact that you need no cover or consealment becuase you can stealth while being observed.
That does confirm that stealthing again after an attack is a move action, however, so I'm still limited to one standard action on any round I wish to re-stealth. And if I'm re-stealthing then I'm probably wanting to move somewhere so offensive actions. Seems better balanced than my original understanding.
I think we have that hammered out, BBT, except if you can count a 5' step as enough "move" to re-stealth. Because you have HiPS, you don't have to actually move into cover, so is the movement of the step enough?
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The 5'step seems not quite enough.
Not because of movement, but the effort required.
Now, I could see me being wrong here, but it feels like the difference between a Swift and a Free action.
What gets me, is it seems the Bluff check is needed to get past the "observed" status.
If you can use stealth whilst observed, then why would you need the Bluff check?
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If the Bluff check isn't the thing that is defeating the "observed" status, then it effectively does nothing.
The things required for Stealth are being unobserved, and Cover/Concealment.
So, if neither of those two are required, then it seems that making a Stealth check as part of movement is all that is required.
This is an awesome debate. I wonder if I could take these principles of Stealth and apply it to my Kobold Gunslinger disappearing sniper build...
Nice. That thread even has the sniping mentioned. Thanks for the link. Looks like it will be possible after all.
I'm basically building the sniper version of your concept, with the focus being on staying undetected at range to preclude some of the movement-after-melee and lighting issues you're running into with the melee version.
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Okay.
So, the PC has been given the okay.
Here is what I have:
Malgrim "Patches" Malford
Male Hobgoblin Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 5 Pathfinder Delver 1 Ranger (Guide, Trapper) 6
N Medium Humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+7 armor, +3 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 127 (11d10+1d8+29)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +12, Will +5; +4
vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +4 and one size larger to resist effects of wind
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Impact Adamantine Greataxe +20/+15/+10 (3d6+25/x3) and
Masterwork Cold Iron Armor spikes +16/+11/+6 (1d6+13/x2) and
Masterwork silver dagger +16/+11/+6 (1d4+12/19-20/x2) and
Silversheen Garrote +16/+11/+6 (1d6+19/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +15/+10/+5 (1d8+8/x3)
Special Attacks overhand chop, ranger's focus +4 (2/day), shadowstrike (5/day), shattering strike +1,
weapon training abilities (axes +3)
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15
Base Atk +11; CMB +15 (+16 Bull Rushing, +16 Sundering); CMD 32 (36 vs. Disarm, 37 vs. Sunder)
Feats Dampen Presence, Eldritch Heritage, Endurance, Furious Focus, Hellcat Stealth, Improved Eldritch
Heritage (Shadow Well), Measured Response, Power Attack -3/+6, Skill Focus (Stealth), Vital Strike,
Weapon Focus (Greataxe), Weapon Specialization (Greataxe)
Traits Desert Shadow, Soaring Sprinter
Skills Acrobatics +18 (+20 to keep balance or jump), Bluff +6, Climb +10, Craft (traps) +6, Disable Device
+15, Disguise +3, Escape Artist +6, Fly +2, Heal +4, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge
(dungeoneering) +1, Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +1, Knowledge
(planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Linguistics +4, Perception +11 (+14 to locate traps, +13 while in
urban terrain), Perform (sing) +3, Perform (string instruments) +5, Profession (gambler) +4, Ride +2,
Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +6, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +43 (+45 while in urban terrain), Survival +4
(+6 while in urban terrain, +7 to track), Swim +6 (+10 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion), Use
Magic Device +6; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth, master explorer +1
Languages Common, Goblin, Ignan
SQ adhesive (10 rounds/day), bardic knowledge, combat styles (natural weapon), favored terrain (urban
+2), shadow well (1/day), snare trap, swarm trap, terrain bond, track, trap (3/day) (dc 13), trapfinding +3,
wild empathy
Combat Gear Clockwork key, Armor ointment (10), Candlerod (10), Deodorizing agent (3 uses) (2),
Smokestick (10); Other Gear +1 Adhesive, Armor spikes (magical), Comfort Elven, +1 Adaptive
Composite longbow (Str +0), +1 Impact Adamantine Greataxe, Masterwork silver dagger, Silversheen
Garrote, Bag of holding I (20 @ 51.5 lbs), Belt of giant strength +4, Boots of the soft step, Cloak of
resistance +2, Gloves of dueling, Goz mask (60 minutes/day), Headband of alluring charisma +2, Ioun
stone (deep red sphere), Ioun stone (opalescent white pyramid, cracked) (Ga, Ring of chameleon power,
Ring of protection +1, Applejack (per gallon), Artisan's tools, masterwork (Craft [traps]), Enraging whip,
Fire-resistant boots, Masterwork tool (Acrobatics), Masterwork tool (Perception), Musical instrument,
masterwork (Acoustic Guitar), Pathfinder's kit, Shinobi shozoku, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Tobacco,
Wine, Corentyn (per bottle), Wrist sheath, spring loaded (10 @ 5 lbs), 1433 GP, 6 SP
How does it look now?
Build-wise it looks solid to me. Might I advice you set yourself up to create a few combat smokesticks, in case you need to get a smoke-screen out, ASAP?
-Nearyn
As far as i´m aware 5 foot steps are enough to stealth.
Nice build^^
with what weapon? PA would be +2/4/6 damage, +3/6/9 with 2h, vital strike doubles the damage dice, and overhand chop doubles your STR bonus, so assuming 18-20 that'd be +8/10 damage. you'd need a pretty hefty weapon to meet 45 damage, and probably an axe-type one for such a big crit difference.