In our Kingmaker campaign we already used a variable divisor, dependent on the tax edict, for the tax income of the kingdom instead of a simple +x to economy.Care to elaborate on it? Seems interesting :)
We've done the same thing. Instead of the straight division of the economy roll by 5 as given, no taxation divides it by 6 (it's assumed that even without taxes the Kingdom has some investment in the economy), low taxation divides it by 5, and so on all the way up to Overwhelming which divides it by 2.
This generally raises more income, but I've ditched the Magic Item economy and made some other adjustments and it seems to be working out.
|
In our Kingmaker campaign we already used a variable divisor, dependent on the tax edict, for the tax income of the kingdom instead of a simple +x to economy.Care to elaborate on it? Seems interesting :)
To cite an old post, this:
Dale, I feel that the positive effect of a high tax rate for the kingdom coffers is practically non-existent.
Unless I am reading something wrong it is only a +4 to economy, so approximately 1/BP month, independently from the kingdom size.I was thinking to change so that the BP production increase/decrease is proportional to the total kingdom economy.
it will be something like this:
Taxation Level...Economy roll...Economy roll...Loyalty......Unrest
..........................divisor..........modifier........modifier
None .................... 1/7 ............ +4 ............ +1 ........... -1
Light ................... 1/6 ............ +2 ............ -1 ............ 0
Normal .................. 1/5 ............ +0 ............ -2 .............. 0
Heavy .................. 1/4 ............ -2 ............. -4 ............ +2
Overwhelming .......... 1/3 ............ -4 ............. -8 ............ +4To explain my table above (I hope the formatting will survive[Edit:it didn't, so the current form]):
Economy roll divisor is the number by which you divide your economy check in the generate income phase. As your taxation rate decrease you get less money for the kingdom coffers.
Economy roll modifier is the number added or subtracted to your economy roll in the same phase. Your kingdom would get less money with a lower taxation rate but its economy will grow faster.
Loyalty modifier and Unrest modifier: I think they are self explanatory. less taxes, more happy citizens.
The loyalty modifier is higher than the unrest level as I feel that only heavy taxes will generate rioting. As long as you apply what is a normal level of taxation you will get some people badmouthing the government, but not violent demonstrations.What do you think?
I would like to link the population increase to the loyalty value fo the kingdom, but that is more difficult.
It worked fairly well. At the same time we reduced (but don't completely removed) the effect of the magic items sales.
The unrest modifier happen each month, as long as that level of taxation is in effect.
Jason did something similar, but without the unrest modifier and with better loyalty modifiers at the lower taxation levels.
Notice that even with no direct taxation a kingdom will get some revenue from indirect taxation, state property and so on. Still Jason use of the term Minimal instead of None for the lower level of taxation is a better choice of words.
If you are remaking the kingdom using Ultimate Campaign you should redo the table so that the Normal value use the UC level of taxation of 1/3, and redo the oterh divisor from there.
Collect Taxes: Attempt an Economy check,divide the result by 3 (round down), and add a number of BP to your Treasury equal to the result.
Higher taxes on that chart give you better fractions of the roll but also reduce Economy slightly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Overwhelming taxes stunt the private sector?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Who'd have guessed?
|
|
Seeing how a good number of economist is still convinced that taking money from the 95% of the population and putting them in the hands of the 1% (the other 4% is mostly unaffected but don't receive extra money) will stimulate economy and that the money will "trickle down", my opinion is that economist can convince themselves of anything if that follow their preconcepts.
Not the place for that discussion, I think.
Agreed.
Has anyone made any progress on a spreadsheet incorporating the new rules?
|
So the main implications (as I see them) are magic item economy replaced by better taxation, and more terrain features (fisheries etc.). The latter I am particularly pleased by, as it gives incentive to grow beyond growth for growth's sake. Anyone tried this in practice yet to compare to the old system?
I'll pick up Ultimate Rulership asap methinks :).
|
UCam does look pretty good, fixing a lot of things our group didn't like about the Kingdom building rules. I am also eagerly looking forward to Ultimate Rulership as well.
Realistically though, we will need to wait and see what the Hero Lab kingdom building looks like, and whether or not Legendary Games is willing to make an add-on for this HL module or not. Like I told my players when they asked which rules we are using... "The one that has the automated tracking tool that is easiest to use and update". We are still small in our game and we need the spreadsheet, so I can imagine 75+ size kingdoms absolutely rely on some sort of computer tracking to record all the adjustments.
So, I am hoping that Lone Wolf does a great job on this module, in particular to make it easier for 3PP to make their own products available to use with it.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
|
Legendary Games is happy to allow HeroLab to make a module to support Ultimate Rulership, but I personally don't have the HL skills or the time to do it. If we have an enterprising fan who's HL-savvy and would like to lend a hand, feel free to email me at makeyourgamelegendary at gmail dot com.
I believe at least one person (Alexander Augunas, I believe) is creating an Excel spreadsheet incorporating both the Ultimate Campaign rules and Ultimate Rulership, so there is that option for automation as well.
|
|
Jason, thanks for popping in and giving us the update. I would definitely pay for either product, if that helps incentivize the respective parties. Spreadsheet is what we are using now, so as long as it has the right data/fields and encompasses the rulesets, I would be very happy. We just need the tools! :)
I would love it if the excel spreadsheet would be edited by the same guy that orignally built mine. I love it, and could edit slight things the way I saw fit. Hope he doesn't charge this time though, life ain't easy on some people :(
I'd really love to work on making a spreadsheet that incorporates the changes in Ultimate Campaign as my group is half a session away from founding theirs. I'd really like to use the UC rules as I like a lot of the changes from the KM books. I'd be happy to post my sheet here if/when I get it finished.
It may be easier to update an existing, older spreadsheet rather than create one from scratch (which I've started), but I've seen several different versions. Is there one, in particular, that is "better" than others? I'd like to keep it vanilla at first so, while I love the copy of Book of the River Nations I bought, it may be easier to stick with a sheet that doesn't include third-party material. Also, I wouldn't want to step on anyone's toes by modifying and reposting their sheet, so if the sheet doesn't include contact info for the author, I'd be leery of using it.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
Hero Lab is going to have an add-on that allows you to manage your kingdom using the Ultimate Campaign rules.I've looked for word of this on their forums but i've found nothing. Is there any word/eta you could link me to?
The announcement was first put here.
Later on their own site they confirmed it.
Jason, thanks for popping in and giving us the update. I would definitely pay for either product, if that helps incentivize the respective parties. Spreadsheet is what we are using now, so as long as it has the right data/fields and encompasses the rulesets, I would be very happy. We just need the tools! :)
If you are still interested, here is a link to AA's sheets. I have not had call to use them yet, but they look good.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pt51?Character-Sheets-Updated-Kingdom-Settleme nt#14
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I thought I'd post a follow up to let people know that I'm working on, and have posted, a "first draft" copy of the aforementioned spreadsheet that has been updated with the Ultimate Campaign rules. You can find my thread about it here along with download links:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pvsy?Ultimate-Campaign-Kingdom-Tracking-Spread sheet
As one of the mooks who isn't well connected enough to get freebies, and having to wait until Wednesday to purchase, my main question is this: do the Gambling Den and the Brothel have corresponding costs of building for both Downtime and Kingdom Building? Followed very closely by 'do they have their own plot hook chart?' Mainly because I was working on a chart already, and have most of the functions in place for over a hundred adventure seeds and events springing from a House of Ill Repute, which will actually prove necessary for one of my campaigns.
I blame Spider Robinson.
I created automated fillable pdf sheet for kingdom management presented in UCAM.
Here is link if somebody need it.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
How did people determine statistics for neighboring kingdoms. My players are interested in using diplomatic edicts on both Brevoy and some of the nearby River Kingdoms.
In particular, what kingdom size did you use, and what economy totals did you use for the effects of establishing treaties?
I can't help myself, I have to thread necro so I can economy nerd:
The taxation discussion hinges on the concept of the Laffer Curve.
The general idea is uncontroversial: that extreme taxation reduces tax receipts as much as extreme lack of taxation (at a 100% tax rate, there is no incentive to earn income). As taxation increases, people have more incentive to reduce their tax burden either by not earning income, not reporting income or engaging in practices which reduce tax burdens (e.g. investing in public bonds rather than in businesses).
Therefore, predicted tax receipts theoretically form a bell curve.
The controversial part is where exactly the top of that bell curve is and what factors go into the equation. The question of how much taxation affects the economy and the growth of the economy (two separate things!) are another controversial discussion entirely.
My feeling is that the Economy bonus/penalty from taxation should be a percentage rather than static modifier. One of the major effects of this would be to significantly affect the ability to make successful economy rolls: large taxation regimes should be more difficult to collect.
Ideally, the growth of "Economy" should be based on the growth of the market and not how many "Markets" etc. the Kingdom builds, but that'd be very difficult to simulate. The strange conceit of these rules is that the kingdom builder runs every single aspect of the economy and controls the construction of every building, down to the local brothel.
Also, I'd like have a "Regulation" edict which applies penalties to Economy in exchange for Loyalty and Stability (more regulations theoretically mean a safer nation and a more secure populace, but should harm business).
And don't get me started on inflation... or the fact that every GP is worth approximately $500 in today's money...
Just spitballing here...
Assuming these tax receipts:
Minimal - 1/10
Low 1/5
Normal 1/3
Heavy 1/2
Overwhelming 2/3
The Economy bonuses/penalties should be thus:
Minimal 25%
Low 10%
Normal 0%
Heavy -15%
Overwhelming -30%
I'd probably keep the same static bonuses to Loyalty. I"m considering applying half the economy bonus, but that might be too significant a change.
For a kingdom with an economy of 100 the receipts would be:
Minimal - 1/10 * 125 = 12.5
Low - 1/5 * 110 = 22
Normal - 1/3 * 100 = 33.3
Heavy - 1/2 * 85 = 42.5
Overwh - 2/3 * 70 = 46.67
TheDailyLunatic, you should get Legendary Games, Ultimate Rulership, it does taxes much better.
Replace Table 4-3 Taxation Edicts with this.
Minimal = Economy Check/5
Light = Economy Check/4
Normal = Economy Check/3
Heavy = Ecomony Check/2.5
Crushing = Economy Check/2
Though you might want to change Minimal to 1/10, and Light to 1/5.
You could also use the Loyalty Modifier as an Unrest Modifier reversing the "+" & "-", with a maximum Unrest reduction of -1.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
|
TheDailyLunatic, you should get Legendary Games, Ultimate Rulership, it does taxes much better.
Replace Table 4-3 Taxation Edicts with this.
Minimal = Economy Check/5
Light = Economy Check/4
Normal = Economy Check/3
Heavy = Ecomony Check/2.5
Crushing = Economy Check/2Though you might want to change Minimal to 1/10, and Light to 1/5.
You could also use the Loyalty Modifier as an Unrest Modifier reversing the "+" & "-", with a maximum Unrest reduction of -1.
Thanks for the shout-out. I do think the scaling taxation system will give you a much more interesting set of options for taxation; as it is, the system in Ultimate Campaign just doesn't make much of a difference once you're out of the baby steps of kingdom building.
That's why I suggested the Unrest Modifier, to be clear, the table would be..
Minimal = Economy Check/5; Unrest -1
Light = Economy Check/4 ; Unrest -1
Normal = Economy Check/3; Unrest +0
Heavy = Economy Check/2.5; Unrest +4
Crushing = Economy Check/2; Unrest +8
Again I would use 1/10 & 1/5 for Minimal & Light.
You could also add None = Economy Check/10(or 20); Unrest -1(or -2), and bring back Overwhelming = Economy Check/1.5; Unrest +12.
IMO if you want to tax everyone to death you should be prepared for a lot of Unrest.
What is needed perhaps, is a way to reduce Unrest militarily, as the only reason to have such high taxes would be to fight a war.
Something like allowing each 5% of a Kingdom's maximum troop strength to also function as an extra Royal Enforcer. Such troops cannot do anything else that month and cost their normal Consumption. This would allow up to a 20 point reduction in Unrest, but with a likely reduction in Loyalty.
The unsaid obvious implication is that very high taxes should generate a lot of Unrest quickly, as you proceed to gather up everone's monies. (Gaining 2+ Unrest a month is a lot of Unrest)
I would consider anything over 50% in that category, with Unrest increasing dramatically after that.
It Should cause you to lose control of parts of your territory, as people rebell, law enforcement focuses on tax collection, banditry increases, Robin Hoods start popping up, etc.
I was not trying to provide an easy source of income for anyone. I prefer to hang bandits from the battlements, cut out the tongues of bad mouthed bards, and burn serious criminals at the stake.
We also keep taxes at Normal.
I would be extremely wary of adding more than 4 unrest from taxation, if you choose to go that route. Now, granted, the rules are an abstraction, and one country's overwhelming tax would be normal for a different country, but what you're saying is that no regime can impose a high level of tax on an ongoing basis without collapsing, and that's just not true. At +4, though, a country would need to be using the Royal Enforcer and building houses (among other unrest-reducing buildings) regularly to keep a lid on things. This would demonstrate "your taxes at work", which is why countries can actually do it: they're investing in their people with the money gained.
If you set the unrest modifier as high as +8, though, you're saying that such actions are unsustainable (the country will collapse in short order) on any sort of regular basis, regardless of the positive actions of the government.
Please note the Unrest reduction method mentioned up-thread as a counter balance to the obscenely high monthly Taxation Unrest modifier.
As all of this is restricted to the Realm of Fantasy, any real world comparisions are simply out of place, apples to celery.
Again, the only reason I could think of going so high on taxes would be to fund a war, satisfy a greedy despot (player), or some kind of police state since you would have to use your military to quell unrest.
Using just the plain vanilla rules in UCam it is easy to suffer +6 Unrest a month, for several months in a row.
Keep in mind that are multiple ways to reduce unrest as an one-time decision, constructions (lots of them cause unrest -1) and the Royal Enforcer can reduce unrest every turn by 1 point with a loyalty check.
Barracks (6 BP) and watchtowers (12 BP) are fairly cheap to get a -1 unrest. Houses (3 BP) are even cheaper.
It's funny... I'd forgotten I'd posted that stuff. Good to see people checking out my thoughts. I'll take a look into Ultimate Rulership.
I ended up doing proportional bonuses and penalties to Loyalty, with Waterfront halving penalties. It actually makes the whole thing somewhat balanced.
Since everything's proportional, that means you'd best be boosting the hell out of Loyalty alongside Economy if you want to keep raising taxes.
Unrest might be a good thing to add... but I'm pretty satisfied where things are. An extremely wealthy and prosperous nation, softened by peace, can get away with obscene taxes and obscene spending for a long time as long as the people are happy. But as soon as s*** hits the fan, everything's up for grabs.
Think ancient Rome: they were so rich that they literally had generations joining street gangs and living off of free bread and circuses before things came to a head. And then they went to imperial rule where they continued that for CENTURIES. I don't think it was logical or efficient by any means... but it was sustainable right up until it wasn't.
I just killed half my PC's NPC leadership team in a recent session as part of a quest, which prompted the beginnings of a civil war with almost all of their old friends lining up to kill each other. Previously kingdom checks were a "don't roll a 1" breeze... but suddenly they started CARING.