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Is torture always evil, in the context of PFS alignment infraction rules? How violent does it have to be to be considered torture?
In the past, I've played quite a few PFS sessions where neutral aligned PCs have physically harmed bad guys while interrogating them with the intimidation skill, and nobody's had a problem with it.
I probably took it too far the one time my barbarian told a guy he'd chop off his foot if he didn't talk, rolled low on the intimidation check, then followed through on the threat when the guy didn't tell us what we needed. That was an evil aligned, non-humanoid monster who had just ambushed one of my PC's best friends, so he was pretty pissed. I probably should have gotten an alignment warning for that one, but that was before those rules were in the Guide to Organized Play, and our group was pretty much used to the idea of Pathfinders as mostly a bunch of neutral thugs.
But recently, I had a GM who wouldn't let PCs even punch an enemy for non-lethal damage as part of intimidation to try and get information from him, on the basis that torture is evil, and you aren't allowed to play an evil character in Society. Apparently, Batman is a violation of PFS rules by his standards. So some sort of clarification on where to draw the line would be appreciated, since this is actually something that comes up fairly often.
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Short Answer: Yes.
Long Answer: Best to avoid alignment triggered related things as it can cause people to go into heavy discussion and likely arguing over alignment behavior. Torture, killing "innocents", etc. Its not at all hard to imagine both sides reasoning why torture could be good or evil in order to say browbeat a person in order to force them to give them information.
Much more complication than needed.
How could torture not be evil?
I would say physical harm is torture. (Including non-lethal)
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"You can use this skill to frighten an opponent or to get them to act in a way that benefits you. This skill includes verbal threats and displays of prowess."
Torture may involve Intimidation, but it isn't required for Intimidation.
Intimidation following battle can simply be the implied reference to the prowess just displayed. "Mmmm. Looks like we are a lot more powerful than you. Tell us what we want to know." That is all that's needed. There is no need to beat someone up to intimidate them.
Verbal threats are an option for intimidation, but these are getting on shaky ground. Are you willing to carry them out? If yes, are those threats of acts that would be viewed as evil? If you aren't willing, the threat itself is a Bluff. It may be one that that may include a modifier based upon it being believable (the target knows this sort of thing might happen), or if has followed a battle (evidence that the Bluffer is capable of carrying out the action).
A course of action can be Intimidation and non-evil, it can accompany a bluff of torture and be non-evil, or it can accompany an evil action, such as torture. Torture, in itself, isn't Intimidation. Torture is a physical act, while Intimidation is essentially attitude; it's a Cha skill, after all.
And, before anyone runs down the "Everyone knows Pathfinders don't torture..." route: No. Pathfinder PCs can't be evil, but not all Pathfinders are PCs, and the distinction between PC and NPC is not a concept that the characters in the story know anything about. This all aside from the fact that a single evil act doesn't make a character evil.
Somewhere in this discussion, psychological torture may arise. Things can get particularly grey in this area, and/or more limiting.
The essential message, though, is that torture isn't required for Intimidation.
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Considering you can cut out someone's tongue for a faction mission, routinely kill sentient beings that are defending their homes from armed intruders, commit assault if not murder in the process of stealing things from their rightful owners i think a few incidents of "he accidentally walked nose first into a door" can get a pass.
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Don is torture by an inquisitor of Asmodeus an evil act as it is one of asmodes's portfolios I think not for most other it would be but for a servant of zon Knthon or Asmodeus it would be one of their holy offices. One problem with things like torture is we use our current societal values for determining what we think of things like torture. Compare current societal norms vs.those of Spain in the time of the inqusistion a d then to the time period that the game is equivalent to and the classes your character is to wether something is evil or. Not.
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ohh god this arguement again.
As a DM you should make the decision. Evil almsot completely subjective. So look at the confines as to why and who and make a judgement. If it is at all contreversial then warn them before hand say as I GM I judge this an evil actiivty are you sure.
You will always get peopel that says torture is not evil, yes it is, only in some cases, only if against babies, only against babies for the fun of it......
This is definately DM decision. Also keep in mind where you are and who you are playing with. In a public store or with children you may want to tone done the adult situations that are being created.
You torture known bad guy for info to a 'good' end. Then no it's not evil.
Torturing after bad guy coughed up info for fun is evil.
Torturing anyone that doesn't 'ping' as evil is evil.
Torture for the lulz is evil.
Repeatedly punching the bad guy that surrendered after he killed your fellow PC, into unconsciousness is not evil.
Neutering that bad guy afterwards is...case by case.
Really torture is a gray area, though it can be used for good. *See the movie Taken*
Torture for torture's sake IS evil *see the Saw series*
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Don is torture by an inquisitor of Asmodeus an evil act as it is one of asmodes's portfolios I think not for most other it would be but for a servant of zon Knthon or Asmodeus it would be one of their holy offices.
Right, performing an act that would normally be evil, but doing so in homage to an evil deity, totally makes it less evil to do.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Everyone seems to be ignoring the second question in the original post. Exactly where is the line between "intimidation" and "torture"?
Yes torture is evil.
Intimidation is when you threaten to do physical harm that would cause maiming, injury, etc...
Torture is when you deliberatly cause pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves. It also includes inflicting such pain for the purposes of obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession or needlessly and excessively punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed (even if you can heal the damage afterwards).
As I tell my six year old, if you have to ask......
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Everyone seems to be ignoring the second question in the original post. Exactly where is the line between "intimidation" and "torture"?
Yes torture is evil.
Intimidation is when you threaten to do physical harm that would cause maiming, injury, etc...
Torture is when you deliberatly cause pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves. It also includes inflicting such pain for the purposes of obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession or needlessly and excessively punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed.
As I tell my six year old, if you have to ask......
Pathfinders. . . Acting like six-year olds since 4708 AR.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Don is torture by an inquisitor of Asmodeus an evil act as it is one of asmodes's portfolios I think not for most other it would be but for a servant of zon Knthon or Asmodeus it would be one of their holy offices. One problem with things like torture is we use our current societal values for determining what we think of things like torture. Compare current societal norms vs.those of Spain in the time of the inqusistion a d then to the time period that the game is equivalent to and the classes your character is to wether something is evil or. Not.
Yes, just because it was a function of their office doesn't make it any less of an evil act. Both deities are LE, both are detailed in Faiths of Corruption , and any torture aspect falls under the "E" in their alignment.
And since you brouht real world into it, Just because Spain acted a certain way during the inquisition doesn't make it anymore right or acceptable. There is a reason why very few civilizations have acted I that way since.
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Intimidation is mroe than physical harm. You can intimidate people with other things as well. I am gonna tell your mommy on you is a form of intimidation.
dictionary.com
intimidate Use Intimidate in a sentence in·tim·i·date/ɪnˈtɪmɪˌdeɪt/ Show Spelled [in-tim-i-deyt] Show IPA
verb (used with object), in·tim·i·dat·ed, in·tim·i·dat·ing.
1. to make timid; fill with fear.
2. to overawe or cow, as through the force of personality or by superior display of wealth, talent, etc.
3. to force into or deter from some action by inducing fear: to intimidate a voter into staying away from the polls.
intimidation can be used to torture people in PFS I was admonished by a DM for not letting other pathfinders put their gun in a friendly NPCs mouth because they thought he had their faction mission. I thought that was an evil act.
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The issue with this question is what does your character feel about it. Here is an example. You have two characters both of good alignment. One a Priest and the other an inquisitor. The Priest may feel that torture is evil, but the inquisitor views it as part of his sacred duty to get the information out of the heritic.
Real life example: Spanish inquisition. Church sanctioned torture.
Another view is that of an evil character, a NG character may view torture of a known enemy prisoner as okay. On the other hand the thought of torturing the prisoner's wife or child to get the same information as to much.
So every GM will have to discuss this with the actual players that want to use torture and look at the character's background and beliefs to determine if it would be an alignment violation.
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And since you brouht real world into it, Just because Spain acted a certain way during the inquisition doesn't make it anymore right or acceptable. There is a reason why very few civilizations have acted I that way since.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_torture_since_1948
Many countries have used. few as wide spread.
In russia they can use torture in captial crime suspects.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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And since you brouht real world into it, Just because Spain acted a certain way during the inquisition doesn't make it anymore right or acceptable. There is a reason why very few civilizations have acted I that way since.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_torture_since_1948
Many countries have used. few as wide spread.
In russia they can use torture in captial crime suspects.
And it doesn't make any of those many countries right for partaking in country. And it doesn't make it ok. Torture is evil.
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I understand your point. If you wish to decide in the pathfinder world all uses of torture are evil. That is fine. You are making a judgement call.
I am sorry, but when blanket statement are made about few civilizations using it. Well thats sad to say not true. I do not agree with the use of torture, but many people feel there is a place for it. But it is evil in Golarion
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I understand your point. If you wish to decide in the pathfinder world all uses of torture are evil. That is fine. You are making a judgement call.
I am sorry, but when blanket statement are made about few civilizations using it. Well thats sad to say not true. I do not agree with the use of torture, but many people feel there is a place for it. But it is evil in Golarion
Some people feel there is a place for chopping the head off of an innocent while they film it. Just because they justify it through their religion, and it is an accepted practice in their culture, doesn't make it any less evil.
And the article you listed above proves my point. "While many states use torture, few wish to be described as doing so, either to their own citizens or to international bodies...Almost all regimes and governments engaging in torture (and other crimes against humanity) consistently deny engaging in it, in spite of overwhelming hearsay and physical evidence from the citizens they tortured"
The countries that engage in it know it is wrong, and 99% of them go to great lengths to cover up any accusations of torture.
Torture is evil.
You torture known bad guy for info to a 'good' end. Then no it's not evil.
No the "torture" is still evil. You are making a "greater good" argument that the "evil act" is outweighed by the end result but the act is still evil.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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You torture known bad guy for info to a 'good' end. Then no it's not evil.No the "torture" is still evil. You are making a "greater good" argument that the "evil act" is outweighed by the end result but the act is still evil.
That is correct. For example, if a bad guy enters a classroom and advises the teacher if she kills one of her students, the other 29 will be allowed to leave unharmed and she hesitates. he then advises If she doesn't kill 1 of them, all 30 will die. If she kills one child to save 29 others, it still an evil act, even when made under duress.
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Well this is the last thing I have to say. Evil in the real world is vastly different that evil in a game. In a game imaginary characters are empowered through evil.
So I am sorry I personally do not think they mesh. If someone as part of the game declare that evil in the game world is a static universal vlaue then that is the case. In that imaginary world that is the law
Definitively saying a moral standpoint is a univeral standard in the real world is just logically wrong. As morals are defined by an individual or a group and not universal. Per Doctor David E. Cooper a professor of philosphy specializing in applied ethics(the study of univeral codes of what people ought to do) moral codes differ in time, location, situations, and those involved.(done refering to my college professor) Looking at the recent movie Zero Dark Thirty you watch the US the "good guys" torture "terrorist" "bad guys" to recieve information. Many people would agree that it is not an evil act and that these type of actions are good and valorous(or whatever mumbo jumbo they want to believe). Evil is an opinated word and everyone will have a different opinion of it. My point of pointing out the article was to say hey lots of countries still do this. While a few of them are crime against humanity( acts committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack, so smaller incidents are not so). While I promise you few of the people doing these acts say they are evil. That they are doing "good/moral/righteous/whatever" acts. As Dr. Cooper tells every class "you ought not torture babies for the fun of it". Look a professor that dedicates his life to this study needed to leave torture in such a narrow column that it is hardly torture that is refered to but glee at hurting a defenseless innocent victim.
About a teahcer killing her student that law even recognizes that as not evil. It is called situational control.
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Everyone seems to be ignoring the second question in the original post. Exactly where is the line between "intimidation" and "torture"?
Yes torture is evil.
Intimidation is when you threaten to do physical harm that would cause maiming, injury, etc...
Torture is when you deliberatly cause pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves.
So let me get this strait.
The pathfinders have some vague information that a place is involved in smuggling that might be related to a kidnapping. (as if skyreach weren't the number two source of smuggled artifacts in the inner sea) A heavily armed and armored swat team of pathfinders kick in the door and find mook thug number 2, who oddly enough at seeing people apparently about to kill him, picks up a knife to defend himself.
This person can be shot with an arrow, decapitated with a sword , turned into a marmoset, have his blood boiled within his own veins, be bathed in acid, or even set on fire and be left to burn to death alive... and THEN have his body reanimated into an unholy mockery of life that exists to satiate an inexorable hunger for the tender flesh of the living and thats not an evil act.
But if you take someone you know is guilty of the most heinous crimes, who deserves to be decapitated on the spot, and instead smack him around a little for information then suddenly you've crossed the line...
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Everyone seems to be ignoring the second question in the original post. Exactly where is the line between "intimidation" and "torture"?
Yes torture is evil.
Intimidation is when you threaten to do physical harm that would cause maiming, injury, etc...
Torture is when you deliberatly cause pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves.
So let me get this strait.
The pathfinders have some vague information that a place is involved in smuggling that might be related to a kidnapping. (as if skyreach weren't the number two source of smuggled artifacts in the inner sea) A heavily armed and armored swat team of pathfinders kick in the door and find mook thug number 2, who oddly enough at seeing people apparently about to kill him, picks up a knife to defend himself.
This person can be shot with an arrow, decapitated with a sword , turned into a marmoset, have his blood boiled within his own veins, be bathed in acid, or even set on fire and be left to burn to death alive... and THEN have his body reanimated into an unholy mockery of life that exists to satiate an inexorable hunger for the tender flesh of the living and thats not an evil act.
But if you take someone you know is guilty of the most heinous crimes, who deserves to be decapitated on the spot, and instead smack him around a little for information then suddenly you've crossed the line...
We can list all kinds of situations. That isn't what this topic is about. If you want to discuss blood boiling, bathing in acid, setting on fire or many other acts, start your own thread instead of derailing this one.
Let me simplify. Torture is evil. I'm not arguing about it, I'm not debating it.
Torture is evil, plain and simple.
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Per the geneva convention:
Part I Article 1 For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.
I don't care if it's evil or not - it's wrong.
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And again, I think we all agree that torture is evil. The question is "What is torture?"
How many movies, TV shows, comic books, etc have featured "heroes" who are willing to punch bad guys during an interrogation? Is that torture? Is it evil? Batman routinely hangs people upside down over a ledge. He has a personal code that won't let him ever actually let go and let them die, but the fact that the criminals don't know that makes it effective.
In the non-hypothetical scenario that prompted me to start this thread, our group beat up a bunch of bad guys, took one of them alive, tied him up, tapped him with a wand of CLW to wake him from negative HPs, then started asking questions. The captive was clearly evil, and we needed information to prevent more evil activity. None of the PCs in the room had a good alignment, as far as I know, so the question of a paladin or something objecting wasn't an issue.
We're describing how we're intimidating him before rolling the intimidate check and assists, and one of the players describes his character punching the guy while asking him a question. Having seen this sort of thing more times than I can count in PFS sessions, I didn't consider that even remotely abnormal, and I was actually really surprised when the GM objected and said he couldn't do that because it's evil. He was going to stop, roll the intimidate check, and hope for the best without hitting the guy a second time, so that's as far as it ever would have gone.
So is a single slap or punch to an evil captive while trying to prevent more death and destruction of innocent people considered evil? What about shoving someone against a wall? Is the line drawn at any physical contact?
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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And again, I think we all agree that torture is evil. The question is "What is torture?"
How many movies, TV shows, comic books, etc have featured "heroes" who are willing to punch bad guys during an interrogation? Is that torture? Is it evil? Batman routinely hangs people upside down over a ledge. He has a personal code that won't let him ever actually let go and let them die, but the fact that the criminals don't know that makes it effective.
In the non-hypothetical scenario that prompted me to start this thread, our group beat up a bunch of bad guys, took one of them alive, tied him up, tapped him with a wand of CLW to wake him from negative HPs, then started asking questions. The captive was clearly evil, and we needed information to prevent more evil activity. None of the PCs in the room had a good alignment, as far as I know, so the question of a paladin or something objecting wasn't an issue.
We're describing how we're intimidating him before rolling the intimidate check and assists, and one of the players describes his character punching the guy while asking him a question. Having seen this sort of thing more times than I can count in PFS sessions, I didn't consider that even remotely abnormal, and I was actually really surprised when the GM objected and said he couldn't do that because it's evil. He was going to stop, roll the intimidate check, and hope for the best without hitting the guy a second time, so that's as far as it ever would have gone.
So is a single slap or punch to an evil captive while trying to prevent more death and destruction of innocent people considered evil? What about shoving someone against a wall? Is the line drawn at any physical contact?
Torture is when you deliberatly cause excessive pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves. It also includes inflicting such pain for the purposes of obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession or needlessly and excessively punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed (even if you can heal the damage afterwards).
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And again, I think we all agree that torture is evil. The question is "What is torture?"
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So is a single slap or punch to an evil captive while trying to prevent more death and destruction of innocent people considered evil? What about shoving someone against a wall? Is the line drawn at any physical contact?
Torture is when you deliberatly cause pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves. It also includes inflicting such pain for the purposes of obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession or needlessly and excessively punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed (even if you can heal the damage afterwards).
I think that's your ruling.
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Torture is when you deliberatly cause excessive pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves. It also includes inflicting such pain for the purposes of obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession or needlessly and excessively punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed (even if you can heal the damage afterwards).And again, I think we all agree that torture is evil. The question is "What is torture?"
How many movies, TV shows, comic books, etc have featured "heroes" who are willing to punch bad guys during an interrogation? Is that torture? Is it evil? Batman routinely hangs people upside down over a ledge. He has a personal code that won't let him ever actually let go and let them die, but the fact that the criminals don't know that makes it effective.
In the non-hypothetical scenario that prompted me to start this thread, our group beat up a bunch of bad guys, took one of them alive, tied him up, tapped him with a wand of CLW to wake him from negative HPs, then started asking questions. The captive was clearly evil, and we needed information to prevent more evil activity. None of the PCs in the room had a good alignment, as far as I know, so the question of a paladin or something objecting wasn't an issue.
We're describing how we're intimidating him before rolling the intimidate check and assists, and one of the players describes his character punching the guy while asking him a question. Having seen this sort of thing more times than I can count in PFS sessions, I didn't consider that even remotely abnormal, and I was actually really surprised when the GM objected and said he couldn't do that because it's evil. He was going to stop, roll the intimidate check, and hope for the best without hitting the guy a second time, so that's as far as it ever would have gone.
So is a single slap or punch to an evil captive while trying to prevent more death and destruction of innocent people considered evil? What about shoving someone against a wall? Is the line drawn at any physical contact?
so what you're saying is... torture is evil?
Fromper hence the first part of my post - an actual legal definition of torture as agreed upon by the international community at large.
Are we just delineating some lines for "mechanically counts as evil" or is there an application of real-word ethics being applied here that justifies killing 29 more kids to keep blood off one's hands?
If I may,
Killing the child is evil. Having said that, many people would kill the child to prevent the deaths of others (committing an evil act to prevent a greater evil). Now if the teacher does not kill the child and the bad guy kills everybody, the teacher still has committed no evil. The teacher is not held to the actions of the other person. Killing the innocent child is still evil.
Since the original question and at least one supporting one from the original poster have now been answered by the current (May 23rd, 2013 AD, UK time-zone) Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator, I'm going to be optimistic here and post In Before The Lock on the basis this thread looks nearly done.
Either that or this thread is about to get smurf-jacked or descend into sudden spontaneously combusting posts...
Edit:
Hurray! The smurf feature still works around here, anyway.
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I think the torture question has been answered, but I am curious as to whether a GM can outright disallow a PC or party from committing an evil act.
Alignment infractions are a touchy subject. Ultimately, the GM is the final authority at the table, but she must warn any player whose character is deviating from his chosen alignment. This warning must be clear, and the GM must make sure that the player understands the warning and the actions that initiated the warning. The PC should be given the opportunity to correct the behavior, justify it, or face the consequences. We believe a deity would forgive a one-time bad choice as long as the action wasn’t too egregious (such as burning down an orphanage full of children, killing a peasant for no good reason but sport, etc.). Hence, the GM can issue a warning to the player through a “feeling” he receives from his deity, a vision he is given, his conscience talking to him, or some other similar roleplaying event.
Evil PCs are not allowed in PFS, but I don't think that extends to Evil acts. Some boons are even explicitly Evil.
So I think that for Fromper's specific situation: Yes, torture is evil. But they should still have been able to do it (and probably without much risk of alignment infractions, considering that punching a bloodthirsty thug is hardly equivalent to burning down an orphanage).
I still say torture is not evil in of itself.
You talk about the kids and I don't think that's a fair argument.
Let's say a person has those children in a hidden place somewhere and is planning on killing them if his demands aren't met.
You have his accomplice who helped him get those children in custody.
Do you ask nicely, and offer him doughnuts and leniency? Or do you actually do your job and get the info out by any means necessary?
It's not evil if you torture that guy into spilling the beans and saving this kids. I'd argue that doing nothing, or placating the person is more in line with evil then breaking out the thumb screws.
There is plenty of other scenarios where torture will 'save the day' and without it the bad guys win.
Playing hardball doesn't make you evil.