Synthesist: Biped or Quad for damage?


Advice


Been reading up on Synthesists, and I couldn't figure this out. If I want to focus purely on damage, is it better to go biped (presumably for Slam), or go quad (presumably for Pounce/Rake)?

I've seen it argued that you can't always pounce, but more often than not, you should be able to Rake. So what's the downside to quad? -2 to Str doesn't seem so bad? Or is there some other advantage that I'm not seeing for biped? Can someone enlighten me?

Please no snarky comments about going normal Summoner or Master Summoner instead.

Sovereign Court

Ender730 wrote:

Been reading up on Synthesists, and I couldn't figure this out. If I want to focus purely on damage, is it better to go biped (presumably for Slam), or go quad (presumably for Pounce/Rake)?

I've seen it argued that you can't always pounce, but more often than not, you should be able to Rake. So what's the downside to quad? -2 to Str doesn't seem so bad? Or is there some other advantage that I'm not seeing for biped? Can someone enlighten me?

Please no snarky comments about going normal Summoner or Master Summoner instead.

Biped, for no other reason than you can't cast somatic spells without hands, per the FAQ.


spend 2 evo points on arms, now your quadreped can cast spells. you can put claws on those arms too.


Joachim wrote:
Biped, for no other reason than you can't cast somatic spells without hands, per the FAQ.

Couldn't find that info in the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe). Can you link it?

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
spend 2 evo points on arms, now your quadreped can cast spells. you can put claws on those arms too.

Nice :)


I cannot find any place that it says the summoner looses the hands he was born with when he merges with is eidolon.


Ender730 wrote:
Joachim wrote:
Biped, for no other reason than you can't cast somatic spells without hands, per the FAQ.

Couldn't find that info in the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe). Can you link it?

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
spend 2 evo points on arms, now your quadreped can cast spells. you can put claws on those arms too.
Nice :)

the quad gets pounce

the biped gets to wield weapons.


the quad could wield weapons if you gave it arms, and then you could pounce with the weapons.

Long story short, the best powers are reserved for quads, while anything the bipeds have as an advantage really can be gotten just by taking arms.


Satchmo wrote:
I cannot find any place that it says the summoner looses the hands he was born with when he merges with is eidolon.
"FAQ wrote:

Remember also that the summoner is wearing the eidolon like a biological, all-encompassing "suit," and the eidolon's shape limits what the summoner can do. If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, or anything else requiring arms--while fused, the summoner's limbs are trapped within the armless eidolon-suit, and he isn't able to use them to manipulate things. The summoner isn't able to extend his own body parts outside of the eidolon-suit; if he wants to be able to manipulate things with arms, the eidolon needs arms (though tentacles are sufficient for simple tasks).

(Note: It is a matter of flavor and player's preference whether the synthesist floats immobile within the eidolon-suit and its limbs move at his mental command, if the synthesist moves his own arms and the eidolon-suit's arms echo this movement, or if the eidolon-suit is more form-fitting and the flesh-enveloping limbs move in direct response to the synthesist's own movements.)

Note: This clarifies an earlier FAQ error where the summoner's weapon attacks counted toward the number of attacks on the table.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/02/11


Well, Bipeds have the advantage of looking fairly normal. A quadruped with arms would have to either explain his class and powers to every town he goes to, or pretend he is a centaur or something (and if you know anything about centaur mythology, that is plenty of reason to grab the torches and pitchforks right there)

There is an advantage to staying as a medium biped: you never have to desummon your eidolon for social occasions/ getting into a room. I'm fairly certain the fluff states that you can shape it so it just looks like weird armor.


So how big of a difference is there between the damage of a biped compared to a quad?


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Ender730 wrote:
So how big of a difference is there between the damage of a biped compared to a quad?

only 2 points of strength or 1 point of damage per swing in the biped's favor

the quadruped has better initiative, can get pounce, and through the arms evolution, wield all the same weapons as the biped counterpart. in fact, while natural weapons hit easier, manufactured 2handers bypass DR easier and benefit more from your soon to be massive strength score. quadruped with arms.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

only 2 points of strength or 1 point of damage per swing in the biped's favor

the quadruped has better initiative, can get pounce, and through the arms evolution, wield all the same weapons as the biped counterpart. in fact, while natural weapons hit easier, manufactured 2handers bypass DR easier and benefit more from your soon to be massive strength score. quadruped with arms.

Lol, a quad with 2 arms just look funny the way I imagine it. So a non-arms quad vs biped, can the biped keep up in damage output (or stay close to it), given the quad's ability to frequently pounce/rake?


Ender730 wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

only 2 points of strength or 1 point of damage per swing in the biped's favor

the quadruped has better initiative, can get pounce, and through the arms evolution, wield all the same weapons as the biped counterpart. in fact, while natural weapons hit easier, manufactured 2handers bypass DR easier and benefit more from your soon to be massive strength score. quadruped with arms.

Lol, a quad with 2 arms just look funny the way I imagine it. So a non-arms quad vs biped, can the biped keep up in damage output (or stay close to it), given the quad's ability to frequently pounce/rake?

think of a centaur and it becomes less funny.


I like thinking of it as a cat with 2 arms growing out of its kidneys.


Weables wrote:
I like thinking of it as a cat with 2 arms growing out of its kidneys.

I know, right?

I realize a centaur is a possible shape that works as a quad that can cast and pounce, but it's just not my cup of tea I guess (unless the damage output difference is super huge). So that's why I'm wondering how far behind in damage I'd be if I went biped instead of quad?


I always vote quad. The biped isn't really special, but pounce is amazing for melee.

You would be behind in every attack you had to move...


MrSin wrote:
I always vote quad.

Even if you don't want to go quad + arms?


Ender730 wrote:
MrSin wrote:
I always vote quad.
Even if you don't want to go quad + arms?

the best synthesists are huge Centuars with huge longspears and combat reflexes.

30 foot reach, and pounce.

but Quad needs arms to cast anyway.


Ender730 wrote:
MrSin wrote:
I always vote quad.
Even if you don't want to go quad + arms?

I just refluff the legs or such. The eidolon/synthesist form is form is whatever I want it to be after all. Would your DM complain more about the 8 armed, 4 legged monster or the guy with a few natural attacks? What I do depends on what I'm going for of course.

Pounce is cheap for the quad, and invaluable for doing damage. If your going for a single big hit you might get more out of biped, but I've always found it easier to have multiple natural attacks.


Ender730 wrote:
Weables wrote:
I like thinking of it as a cat with 2 arms growing out of its kidneys.

I know, right?

I realize a centaur is a possible shape that works as a quad that can cast and pounce, but it's just not my cup of tea I guess (unless the damage output difference is super huge). So that's why I'm wondering how far behind in damage I'd be if I went biped instead of quad?

An Eidolon can be any shape you want. A centaur, wemic, or similar creature is the most obvious thing that comes to mind when adding arms to a quadruped, but there's no need for it to look like that. It could just as easily be a wolf or cat with arms added at the front shoulders. Or a nearly-shapeless abomination with some limbs. Or a tiny AT-AT. Or pretty much any kind of monster art you can find and like the look of.


Quote:
An Eidolon can be any shape you want. A centaur, wemic, or similar creature is the most obvious thing that comes to mind when adding arms to a quadruped, but there's no need for it to look like that. It could just as easily be a wolf or cat with arms added at the front shoulders. Or a nearly-shapeless abomination with some limbs. Or a tiny AT-AT. Or pretty much any kind of monster art you can find and like the look of.

I know, I just find all of it funny, having arms and 4 legs. Centaurs are ok, but I just don't like their shape... /shrug.


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Quad is best for sheer damage.

Biped's main advantages are superior reach (once the Large evo and Enlarge Person's start flying) and better as a lockdown/maneuver type. Partly due to reach, partly due to higher starting str, partly due to the ability to swap out the free natural attacks to load up on nothing but pincers for tons of primary grab-enabled attacks.


Ender730 wrote:
It doesn't actually gain arms...?

The limbs evolution can, complete with hands if you want. Then you can use those hands to wield weapons. You can use evolutions to give those limbs natural attacks, such as slams or claws. So long as you have hands you can cast, even if that limb has a natural attack.

Lantern Lodge

Biped so at level 1 u can duel wield Nodachis.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Ender730 wrote:
MrSin wrote:
I always vote quad.
Even if you don't want to go quad + arms?

the best synthesists are huge Centuars with huge longspears and combat reflexes.

30 foot reach, and pounce.

but Quad needs arms to cast anyway.

Ok, that doesn't bring out the torches and pitchforks, that brings out the catapults and cavalry. I just cannot imagine a town even allowing something like that near it. Such summoners should be glad they have great charisma and the skill points to put into diplomacy.

I still feel that in any campaign with a sufficient social aspect, the biped edges out in usefulness since you can wear it constantly, which helps in ambushes. Otherwise, you end up being a particularly squishy caster that just spams summon monster X.


Ender730 wrote:
Quote:
An Eidolon can be any shape you want. A centaur, wemic, or similar creature is the most obvious thing that comes to mind when adding arms to a quadruped, but there's no need for it to look like that. It could just as easily be a wolf or cat with arms added at the front shoulders. Or a nearly-shapeless abomination with some limbs. Or a tiny AT-AT. Or pretty much any kind of monster art you can find and like the look of.
I know, I just find all of it funny, having arms and 4 legs. Centaurs are ok, but I just don't like their shape... /shrug.

If you don't want Tauric creatures, you can always go more exotic. There's not a ton of great examples in the bestiaries (Tophet and a couple of Daemons) but I can envision something like Mojo from the comics - a torso centrally located above four legs. One could always mess around with Spore to try some different body layouts to find something cool.


I too didn't like the idea of arms on my quad so I fluffed it as a 6 legged wolf. Mechanically the front appendages are arms, but there is nothing stopping him from walking around on all six. He still gets a lot of claw attacks this way, but admittedly this wouldn't work if you are planning to wield weapons.


Sitri wrote:
I too didn't like the idea of arms on my quad so I fluffed it as a 6 legged wolf. Mechanically the front appendages are arms, but there is nothing stopping him from walking around on all six. He still gets a lot of claw attacks this way, but admittedly this wouldn't work if you are planning to wield weapons.

Yeah, I'll probably just do this. Seems like I need to find some biped build though, just to compare the damage properly between a biped optimized for damage vs a quadruped optimized for damage. If the gap isn't too big, I'll just go biped.


Keep in mind that they (the Dev's) have said that Big E can't look like any existing monster or creature.

So regardless of the form you take- its always obviously not whatever it is you designed it to look like unless you take pains to disguise it (through magic or the skill of the same name).

Quote:
The eidolon's physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature.

The summoner can make it look like what he wants but it has to be fantastical and it can't be a specific creature.

So wemic-like, centaur-like, etc.

But definately not normal, regardless.

(and a Synthesist even less so since his is see-through.. like walking with a suit of jello on)

-S


There's loads of monsters in D&D/PF that have more than 4 limbs. For inspiration, look at these:
Chuul
Marilith
Drider
Displacer Beast
Basilisk
Basidrond
Behir


Selgard wrote:


(and a Synthesist even less so since his is see-through.. like walking with a suit of jello on)

Is there any rules support for this? Can't see anything in the archetype, or am I just blind?

Scarab Sages

Ender730 wrote:
Joachim wrote:
Biped, for no other reason than you can't cast somatic spells without hands, per the FAQ.

Couldn't find that info in the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe). Can you link it?

FAQ

Quote:
Remember also that the summoner is wearing the eidolon like a biological, all-encompassing "suit," and the eidolon's shape limits what the summoner can do. If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, or anything else requiring arms--while fused, the summoner's limbs are trapped within the armless eidolon-suit, and he isn't able to use them to manipulate things. The summoner isn't able to extend his own body parts outside of the eidolon-suit; if he wants to be able to manipulate things with arms, the eidolon needs arms (though tentacles are sufficient for simple tasks).

Emphasis Mine.

Psion-Psycho wrote:
Biped so at level 1 u can duel wield Nodachis.

Only if you never plan on hitting anything.

Ilja wrote:
Selgard wrote:


(and a Synthesist even less so since his is see-through.. like walking with a suit of jello on)
Is there any rules support for this? Can't see anything in the archetype, or am I just blind?

People have serious misconceptions as to the meaning of the word translucent. They should spend 5 minutes looking up real world examples instead of spouting incorrect definitions.

Selgard wrote:

The summoner can make it look like what he wants but it has to be fantastical and it can't be a specific creature.

-S

Fantastical is a subjective enough term to be meaningless. Gnomes and elves would be fantastical on Earth.

For an idea of how mundane or specific eidolon appearances can be, reference the Eidolon Models.


Technically speaking, human skin is translucent (just take a flashlight directly against it). I'll admit, the huge sized, dozen armed monstrosities most synthesists become would look ghost like since they are 'empty.' A medium sized, bipedal eidolon that closely conforms to the body of a medium synthesist? That would be filled with enough material that if would mostly look opaque.

Scarab Sages

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Marble is translucent. All the word means is that the material gains its color as light passes through the material, as opposed to opaque materials where color is determined by light reflected at the surface.

Translucent objects visually have depth while opaque objects have a flat color.

Think painting an object flat black vs black with a satin finish. Both are the same color, one has translucent properties.


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Just go crazy quadruped and don't worry about the rest. Get some arms when you can for casting, if your GM goes by the FAQ. Don't worry about the townsfolk freaking out; there's no law that says you have to wear your Eidolon around town. Remember, you're about 80% of a full caster, and you've got standard action Summon Monster! Even if you get attacked by the entire Assassins' guild, you can summon some distractions/linebackers and then nope on out of there, only to return with your biomech and play Godzilla five minutes later.


Been playing around with both a quad build and a biped build all night, and I'm pretty happy with biped. It does lack Pounce, but I was never going to go for a 20-claw quadruped anyway, so it's not THAT big of a deal. Given that parameter, the difference is somewhat minor for the builds that I'm looking for, so it's all about flavor.

I need to figure out a way to get my attacks higher without using Large, as I really don't like that evolution, but aside from that, everything's great.

Thanks to everyone for helping out though.


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Ilja wrote:

There's loads of monsters in D&D/PF that have more than 4 limbs. For inspiration, look at these:

Chuul
Marilith
Drider
Displacer Beast
Basilisk
Basidrond
Behir

anyone else nerdy enough to think "that's awesome they put pedipalp on the drider"?


Ender730 wrote:

Been playing around with both a quad build and a biped build all night, and I'm pretty happy with biped. It does lack Pounce, but I was never going to go for a 20-claw quadruped anyway, so it's not THAT big of a deal. Given that parameter, the difference is somewhat minor for the builds that I'm looking for, so it's all about flavor.

I need to figure out a way to get my attacks higher without using Large, as I really don't like that evolution, but aside from that, everything's great.

Thanks to everyone for helping out though.

... Pounce works with weapons, not just natural attacks.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
... Pounce works with weapons, not just natural attacks.

Bipeds can't get pounce though.


I am currently playing a synth using Biped for purly development reason. I did do a lot of build variable and in the end its a wash between the too until you have a bunch of evolution points then the pounce can pull the quadroped ahead.
The biggest thing you are going to want to do for damage is stick with as many attacks as you can. You save lots of evo points and feats if you just have 1 type ei Claw. if you do you only need imp dagage once plus you can get full advantage of the Improved Natural attack feat and rending claws feat witch stack. So at level 7 you can be pushing Clawx4 at 1d8 Plus 1d8 rend plus 1d6 Rending claw. Add in str and anything else and you can seariously put the hurt on. Toss on Reach evo and/or enlarge person and you dont have to pounce 10 feat you can kill them from were you are.
(i didnt mention magic or energy attacks because I am a wild Caller and cant use them)


Ilja wrote:
Bipeds can't get pounce though.

I know, it was a response to his statement that he didn't wanna go with the 20 clawed quadruped. All a quad needs is a 2 point evolution in order to wield weapons.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Bipeds can't get pounce though.
I know, it was a response to his statement that he didn't wanna go with the 20 clawed quadruped. All a quad needs is a 2 point evolution in order to wield weapons.

Thought you had the summoner's weapon proficiency as a synthesis?


MrSin wrote:
Thought you had the summoner's weapon proficiency as a synthesis?

You do. Don't you need the arms evolution as a quad?


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Thought you had the summoner's weapon proficiency as a synthesis?
You do. Don't you need the arms evolution as a quad?

You do, thought you meant buying proficiency though. You also need arms to cast, hard not to get the arms as a quad.

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