As an old grognard I find it amusing that people find this harsh. In 2nd edition negative levels were just that, you lowered your character's level by one and recalculated your stat block accordingly. No save, no nothing.
Modern players don't know how lucky they have it.
That people in the past put up with even worse game mechanics doesn't make stupid game mechanics tolerable. It makes me wonder what was wrong with people in the past that they put up with Gygax's sadistic crap.
People being people they probably actually mostly didn't. They either quietly ruled that negative levels were stupid and over-complicated and didn't use them (just like the vast majority seem to have not used the special armor resistance table) or they jumped ship for a game system that wasn't designed to make players miserable. The success of White Wolf and GURPS seems to indicate a lot of people did the latter.
I think it's a YMMV thing. I remember hating energy drains, but they heightened my immersion in the game when they were present, as they were so lethal you had to really step up your game.
Got lots of stories about energy drains - I don't think I have one high-level AD&D character that didn't have one inflicted at least once, and in all cases it proved a pivotal point in that character's development (and no, the development wasn't "stay away from spectres and vampires").
I was lucky though I think in that I had DMs that knew the power of the attack, and respected the effect it had on a party when they got rolled out. I never saw a Shadow Dragon in play - reading the description when I first saw it in print I knew it would've been suicide without plenty of foreshadowing and character prep. But still, that's do-able, but you have to treat each level like having an extra limb that grows back v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y if lopped off...
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A few "small" thing to remember when speaking of 1st/2nd edition:
- there wasn't a touch AC. Some very specific monster had the ability to negate some kind of protection, as an example the lava children touch was capable to bypass a metal armor, but those were specific exceptions;
- proportionally your AC was higher and the attack bonus of the creatures was lower;
- a successful turning would force an undead to flee or would destroy it;
- most monster had no class levels.
A 7 Hd spectre that hit AC0 with 13 [the AC of a character in full plate with a shield and no other bonus) is very different from a spectre that has a +10 touch attack.
One hit your full plate and shield fighter 40% of the time, the other 95% of the time.
Add the minimum protection items (+1 cloak and ring, they added up and both gave an bonus to AC and sawing throw) and Protection from evil 10' radius and the risk become very manageable.
So if you don't know a system and its balance it is better not speaking of it.
I like the gank ambush, but, there needed to be stealth and perception checks made.
I like the gank ambush, but, there needed to be stealth and perception checks made.
Inconsequential, they are effectively invisible and they do not make sound that would be a DC 44 check at least. None of that would make the encounter more fair from a player's perspective.
A few "small" thing to remember when speaking of 1st/2nd edition:
- there wasn't a touch AC. Some very specific monster had the ability to negate some kind of protection, as an example the lava children touch was capable to bypass a metal armor, but those were specific exceptions;
- proportionally your AC was higher and the attack bonus of the creatures was lower;
- a successful turning would force an undead to flee or would destroy it;
- most monster had no class levels.A 7 Hd spectre that hit AC0 with 13 [the AC of a character in full plate with a shield and no other bonus) is very different from a spectre that has a +10 touch attack.
One hit your full plate and shield fighter 40% of the time, the other 95% of the time.
Add the minimum protection items (+1 cloak and ring, they added up and both gave an bonus to AC and sawing throw) and Protection from evil 10' radius and the risk become very manageable.So if you don't know a system and its balance it is better not speaking of it.
;) Yes, once you knew the consequence of failure, level loss as compared to mere hp damage ...
"So, where's the dragon at again? I would rather face fire and fang that these horrid spirits!"
I think it's a YMMV thing. I remember hating energy drains, but they heightened my immersion in the game when they were present, as they were so lethal you had to really step up your game.Got lots of stories about energy drains - I don't think I have one high-level AD&D character that didn't have one inflicted at least once, and in all cases it proved a pivotal point in that character's development (and no, the development wasn't "stay away from spectres and vampires").
I didn't like energy draining in 1e/2e either. Losing a level and having to recalculate hit points, bonuses, spells... all a bit of a pain and way to metagamey. 3e was a partial fix in that energy drain didn't cause the loss of character level until the save was blown. PF, I think, has the best version of energy draining to date - the negative level just hangs around until fixed or the save succeeds.
You also only needed a magic weapon to hit them, not a ghost touch...but if you didn't have a magic weapon, you were SOL. They couldn't avoid ANY kind of spells, either...you didn't have to rely on force effects or anti-undead stuff, you could bolt, fireball and even Acid Arrow them just fine.
Also remember, that 7HD spectre might have 32 HP. That's one swing with a sword and a lightning bolt from being dead. All the while it's flailinig at you 1/rd with a 1/4 chance maybe to hit you, no flanking bonuses, etc.
That all being said, Death Ward Spells, Scarabs of Protection, and Wish spells to get back negative levels were all highly prized.
==Aelryinth
I like the gank ambush, but, there needed to be stealth and perception checks made.Inconsequential, they are effectively invisible and they do not make sound that would be a DC 44 check at least. None of that would make the encounter more fair from a player's perspective.
They need to peer through the wall to see the pcs. Stuck in the stone they don't see much, they need to peek out, hence stealth.
Spectres can use a lot of solid cover and come in from some great and terrible angles, but they aren't xorns with tremorsense. They only have darkvision, not sonar, not tremorsense, not magic floating invisible eyes on reach stalks.
Turin "...communal or shield of faith spells to ward the group -"
"communal" is what exactly??
Communal is Pathfinder's answer to the non-OGL "mass" spells of 3e. They can be found in UM and/or UC as well as in the PRD and similar sources. These spells allow one spell to protect multiple targets instead of needing a golf bag full of wands and/or a scroll caddy.
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Sounds to me like this is a combination of the GM playing the critters in a hyper-optimal way by ignoring the communication and perception aspects of the combat, a very swingy initiative, and a party that was particularly vulnerable.
If I understand the party correctly it was a bard, rogue, sorcerer, and fighter (or similar melee build). Spectres have a lot of strengths, but they also have weaknesses. Their weaknesses tend to be harder to take advantage of in PF because clerics are now often considered optional. They're vulnerable to channel undead. Turn Undead (a feat in PF, but a class ability in the game that spawned this version of a Spectre) provides some tactical management if it's available.
This party is particularly susceptible to this encounter. Bards make a nice 5th or 6th character in a party, but is gonna have a tough time with incorporeal undead. The rogue probably has a decent Touch AC vs. incorporeals, but can't do much damage (sneak attack is still a no-no vs. incorporeals). The fighter is going to do 50% damage. This really leaves the sorcerer as the only remaining go to guy, and that really depends on spell selection. A party with a cleric and a paladin is going to see this combat very differently.
I feel for OP's loss, but if I can channel Polyanna for a moment, it's an opportunity to point out that cleric's still serve an important restoration and undead specialist role that is hard to fill, but easy to overlook with the wealth of semi-healers and juicy archetypes out there. Incorporeal undead were tough in 3.5 and even more so in PF because of the tempation away from traditional roles, continued strengths, etc.
Right now, there is a concurrent thread in the advice forum on the topic Do I Need a Cleric? There are a couple of pretty dire warnings about clericless parties and incorporeals by they are largely being passed over for conversations about healing. OP's experience is the proverbial poster child for why a clericless party needs some coordination with the right campaign environment. OP's party probably is pretty well suited for urban adventures; tomb-robbing, not so much.
OP, I'm not hammering on you when talking about the party make up and the comment about the right campaign environment. I understand the social and market dynamics that go into class selection. I feel your pain and hope it serves as notice to another group to avoid it.
I remain amazed at how many people never read the Repose domain's 1st level ability. Clerics are only as boring as you make them. ;)
tsktsks
I more fear CON drain.
Con drain is more dangerous the more HD you have because every 2 Con is 1 hp/level.
Negative levels area flat -5 hp per negative level.
So at low levels Con isn't that bad (you barely lose much hp till you are out). But negative levels are scary (-5 hp per can be a lot at low level, plus amount equals your HD and you die).
I like the gank ambush, but, there needed to be stealth and perception checks made.Inconsequential, they are effectively invisible and they do not make sound that would be a DC 44 check at least. None of that would make the encounter more fair from a player's perspective.They need to peer through the wall to see the pcs. Stuck in the stone they don't see much, they need to peek out, hence stealth.
Spectres can use a lot of solid cover and come in from some great and terrible angles, but they aren't xorns with tremorsense. They only have darkvision, not sonar, not tremorsense, not magic floating invisible eyes on reach stalks.
'It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object.'
They might peek but it does not have to, if it is a small hallway it might just hide in the walls once it hears a sound upstairs and wait till the victim passes by.
Personally I'd have them peek only if just to give the PCs a chance to detect them but it is not strictly necessary.
Immune to Weapon Damage without a niche enchantmentHuh? Last time I checked, about any magic weapon was able to affect incorporeal creatures. What is this immunity you are speaking of?
that must be a recent pathfinder addition i was unaware of
Completely bypasses your hit points
Completely ignores your saving throws
Completely bypasses you armor classUmm... take your choice. I don't know of too many effects that completely bypass all three, unless your whole concept of AC consists of wearing as much metal as you can tote around.
raising touch AC is a pain in the arse short of a few builds and use of a few custom or obscure items. pretty much the only known and reliable way to maximize AC that any DM will approve of is to wear a bunch of metal, or else your damage capacity is screwed. magical armor should at least protect you better from incorporeal creatures (free ghost touch)
is a complete "Screw You" to martial charactersEven if this were the case, what exactly is your problem? If a monster is a complete "Screw you" to casters, that's perfectly fine, even desirable; but if an encounter requires martials and casters to work together with one another, it's the end of civilisation as we know it?
Newsflash: It is not the aim of the game that the burly guy with the two-handed ragehammer (or pouncelance) should be able to clobber everything into submission with ease.
most casters i see are too selfish to work together with the martials and would rather throw that fireball than the ghostbane dirge
requires a shipton of metagaming to defeat
requires the fudging of casting times and material components
requires the preparing and fudging of spell slots to deal withHuh? Come again?
I am aware that a ghost sorecerer is vastly under-CR'ed. Which means it is a lucid dream for a GM who wants to cram as much oomph as humanly possible into a given CR.
I am aware that a ghost sorcerer is among the nastier things the system can throw at you, due to its layers of defense, along with a SADness that isn't even remotely funny.
To add insult to injury, it is SAD on the very stat ever self-respecting martial (and most non-martial) characters will dump all the way down to 7. How dare the game designers mock us that cruelly?Sorry, but I don't buy into your 'Casters are waaaay to powerful already, so anything and everythin in the game that has the edge over martials needs to go
for this to be true, we either need to limit caster options to a given theme chosen at character creation, or make sheer martial power the default way to defeat any foe.
i am tired of casters getting a free pass to defy physics because "it's magic" and martial characters having nothing truly superhuman of their own.
the amount of effort it would take to build a touch AC that has a reasonable chance of shaking off a ghosts touch attacks requires so much time researching obscure rules, odd bonus types, buying splatbooks, and taking oddball items, that a lot of DMs in my area would go WTF on the touch AC. especially if it exceeds 20, let alone 30.
and a lot of the local DMs i game with tend to panick when some players bring a luggage bag of hardcovers anyway. and not everyone in Weekly William's group has the funds for a laptop. so SRD isn't always an option.
we have 3 players that own laptops, 2 of which bring their laptops every session and we all complain about their potential power compared to players with less book access.
Some notes about incorporeal creatures and rules:
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn't wish to be.
An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover.
Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Stealth checks.
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While total cover makes no mention of stealth checks I would like the believe it's better than improved cover and at least as good as being invisible (since you can't be seen) and is at minimum worth +20.
I'm not sure how you're perceiving a silent, mass-less creature that is completely engulfed by a solid object, but I guess you could still smell or taste it.
This would put a spectre hanging out in a wall at +34 stealth.
LD ghost were not immune to magic weapon damage in 3.5. They just had a 50% miss chance. In Pathfinder the weapons hit if the AC is met, but the damage is halved.
As for caster not cooperating that is a good way to die under a GM that does not hold hands. The problem can fixed by letting the party die until they learn to work together or until someoen else rotates into the caster slot that has a clue.
You heard it here first, folks: Monks are OP.the amount of effort it would take to build a touch AC that has a reasonable chance of shaking off a ghosts touch attacks requires so much time researching obscure rules, odd bonus types, buying splatbooks, and taking oddball items, that a lot of DMs in my area would go WTF on the touch AC. especially if it exceeds 20, let alone 30.
and a lot of the local DMs i game with tend to panick when some players bring a luggage bag of hardcovers anyway. and not everyone in Weekly William's group has the funds for a laptop. so SRD isn't always an option.
we have 3 players that own laptops, 2 of which bring their laptops every session and we all complain about their potential power compared to players with less book access.
i don't honestly think monks are OP, just that they are either too defensive to the exclusion of offense or too offensive to the exclusion of defense.
but i do think that a "monk" class is unnecessary, because all it does is further tax resources on non-monk unarmed combatants because the "monk's" "niche" is fighting unarmed.
doesn't mean that monks or unarmed combat are overpowered, just that we can't have decent unarmed options because the designers are afraid of giving them to monks because they think a 2d10 light weapon is OP.
but for non-monks, touch AC is harder to optimize, so i guess that is one thing the monks are actually good at. avoiding touch attacks.
LD ghost were not immune to magic weapon damage in 3.5. They just had a 50% miss chance. In Pathfinder the weapons hit if the AC is met, but the damage is halved.
As for caster not cooperating that is a good way to die under a GM that does not hold hands. The problem can fixed by letting the party die until they learn to work together or until someoen else rotates into the caster slot that has a clue.
with few exceptions, the closest thing we usually get to a wizard are Aaron's skanky elven evokers and his skanky elven magi, whom are both usually sexually overactive and highly pyromaniac individuals played by a greasy 500 lb chronic virgin white guy in a skin tight greenbay packers jersey 6 sizes too small for his large abdomen. in fact, many of these casters keep a few "charm person" spells ready at all times for getting one night stands at the tavern.
like we are really supposed to beleive this fat white guy is some hot elf babe with "triple D's" when the fact he wears his jersey half unbuttoned down the top ruins the visual by reminding us of reality.
but then having a group of 8-12 PCs about roughly 3/4 of which have a martial bent isn't a good setup.
I see the problem now.
I see the problem now.
Aaron's Evokers who would rather rush headlong and burn stuff than buff the fighters.
and i tend to be banned from playing clerics because of a particular battle cleric whom i personally admitted wasn't meant to be a healer.
Incorporeal Touch AC 20 is very, very simple: mage armor, shield, shield of faith - and that's with level 1 casters. Higher CL shields of faith, a touch of Dexterity bonus - say via cat's grace - only makes it higher without a whole lot of effort at all.
Hitting 30 takes bracers of armor, high-CL shields of faith and a respectable Dexterity bonus to AC.
None of this mentions a monk.
Incorporeal Touch AC 20 is very, very simple: mage armor, shield, shield of faith - and that's with level 1 casters. Higher CL shields of faith, a touch of Dexterity bonus - say via cat's grace - only makes it higher without a whole lot of effort at all.
Hitting 30 takes bracers of armor, high-CL shields of faith and a respectable Dexterity bonus to AC.
None of this mentions a monk.
but still, that is 3 rounds of preparation per character involved, or an overpriced magic item the group can't normally afford for everyone, a spell or potion at a high caster level the group can't normally afford for everyone, and many rounds of preparation.
shield of faith doesn't stack with rings of protection either. and we tend to fight over the +2 rings at 15th level.
If you know - as the OP found out - that they/you were facing down incorporeal undead after a pasting, the prep time is handled before initiative dice fly. And nearly every time, you'll be glad you did it, especially if the casters go in with held sunlight-type spells and whathaveyou.
At 15th level, a single holy aura from the cleric provides a fat, juicy +4 deflection bonus to AC for everyone (not to mention the other benefits, including what the spell does to evil creatures that melee those warded by the spell while it is operating). If your group lacks one of those four spells, you are in a bit of a pickle regarding rapid response to nasty incorporeal touch attacks.
Getting a 20-25 incorporeal touch AC should be par for the course for a 15th level group. Sure, it takes a smidge of preparation and eats up a decent number of low-level spells. At 15th level that's precisely what those low level spell slots are good for. They are excellent sinks for getting through the fodder / mooks, which incorporeal undead are typically deployed as in AP design.
By level 15 you should at least be able to afford +3 rings. If not your GM is shortchanging you, and the problem is with him/her.
As for the 3 rounds of casting mage armor is hours per level so you can cast that well before you get to a fight.
Shield of Faith is minutes per level and can be cast upon entering the dangerous area.
Only shield would be needed in combat.
Now shield of faith is a divine spell but the other two still get you a +8 before any dex mod comes into play so 20 is still pretty easy to get.
pearls of power allow for mage armor to be cast several times without using several slots.
The group can pool money to get a wand of cat's grace which is also minutes per level. That is at least a 16 before any other magic items or spells come into play.
By level 15 you should at least be able to afford +3 rings. If not your GM is shortchanging you, and the problem is with him/her.
As for the 3 rounds of casting mage armor is hours per level so you can cast that well before you get to a fight.
Shield of Faith is minutes per level and can be cast upon entering the dangerous area.
Only shield would be needed in combat.
Now shield of faith is a divine spell but the other two still get you a +8 before any dex mod comes into play so 20 is still pretty easy to get.
pearls of power allow for mage armor to be cast several times without using several slots.
The group can pool money to get a wand of cat's grace which is also minutes per level. That is at least a 16 before any other magic items or spells come into play.
well, it is from previous experience. we are very shortchanged. try being lucky to get a +1 weapon we can actually use before 10th level.
we have a barbarian who wields a +4 katana because we looted it off of a ninja boss and it was that much better than his masterwork greatsword he wielded for the first 12 out of 15 levels.plus, ressurections and condition removal cut heavily into our budget, with 12 PCs who need some ressurection help.
we take whatever magical gear we can find. even if it isn't optimal.
LD, it sounds like you're severely undergeared. Have you considered a palaver with your fellow players sans GM to figure out just how bad off you are from expected game design?
LD, it sounds like you're severely undergeared. Have you considered a palaver with your fellow players sans GM to figure out just how bad off you are from expected game design?
not really. though we still kill stuff fairly fine.
LD, it sounds like you're severely undergeared. Have you considered a palaver with your fellow players sans GM to figure out just how bad off you are from expected game design?not really. though we still kill stuff fairly fine.
Well, then just say "no" to "kick in the door" adventuring. You might live a bit longer. ;)
Well, then just say "no" to "kick in the door" adventuring. You might live a bit longer. ;)LD, it sounds like you're severely undergeared. Have you considered a palaver with your fellow players sans GM to figure out just how bad off you are from expected game design?not really. though we still kill stuff fairly fine.
90% of the group is "Kick in the door" and "kill first, ask later" and our primary solution seems to be violence. of course it doesn't help that our foes frequently use consumables, and most of our victories were due to prebuffing and slaughtering with our sheer buffed DPR. a bard's power is amplified in our group due to the sheer number of weapon wielding PCs.
Er, what? Temporary negative levels never become permanent in PF, unlike 3.5. You just retain the temp negative level until you make the daily save.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.Even permanent negative levels don't have any stronger effect, they just never go away on their own.
Looks like this is one of those places where the rules contradict themselves. This is the description of the energy drain (Su) universal monster rule (bolding mine):
Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature's description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels. Unless otherwise specified in the creature's description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature's racial HD + draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
Format: energy drain (2 levels, DC 18); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks.
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Any martial class, particularly the Fighter and Rogue, by the time they hit 3rd or 4th level, need to start stockpiling "just in case" gear.
Because by about 5th level, about 1 encounter in 4 is going to be something that your basic attack or defense routine isn't going to be very good against. here's some good, cheap tricks to up your versatility and survivability.
- Pick up Weapon Blanches. A Ghost Salt Blanch and a combat net will pretty much end any encounter with an incorporeal foe.
- Keep a potion of Invisibility to Undead in a Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath.
- As a backup weapon, take a club (or greatclub) and stud it out with silver and cold iron nails or studs.
- By a Scarab of Golembane and whatever the one for Swarms is.
- Pick up a Wayfinder and cram a Clear Spindle in it.
As a martial character, you live and die by your contingency plans. Think like Batman. Build a utility belt.
Er, what? Temporary negative levels never become permanent in PF, unlike 3.5. You just retain the temp negative level until you make the daily save.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.Even permanent negative levels don't have any stronger effect, they just never go away on their own.Looks like this is one of those places where the rules contradict themselves. This is the description of the energy drain (Su) universal monster rule (bolding mine):
Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature's description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels. Unless otherwise specified in the creature's description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature's racial HD + draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
Format: energy drain (2 levels, DC 18); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks.
That is not a contradiction. The bestiary is telling how the monster ability "energy drain" works.
The CRB is telling you how they normally work.
How do you get 'normal' temporary negative levels if not via Energy Drain?
'Breath of Life' gives you one that automatically goes away after a day.
'Energy Drain' specifies that they become permanent if you fail one save.
'Enervation' negative levels disappear automatically after a few hours and the spell says 'usually temporary negative levels have a chance to become permanent', which contradicts the appendix they send you to.
'Energy Drain trap' says Fortitude negates after 24 hours and doesn't specify what happens if you fail the save. That's the only case I can see where the mechanic described in the appendix might be used.
How do you get 'normal' temporary negative levels if not via Energy Drain?
'Breath of Life' gives you one that automatically goes away after a day.
'Energy Drain' specifies that they become permanent if you fail one save.
'Enervation' negative levels disappear automatically after a few hours and the spell says 'usually temporary negative levels have a chance to become permanent', which contradicts the appendix they send you to.
'Energy Drain trap' says Fortitude negates after 24 hours and doesn't specify what happens if you fail the save. That's the only case I can see where the mechanic described in the appendix might be used.
I am going to break this down for you.
Energy Drain is the monster ability which gives negative level, but it is not the only way to gain negative levels.
Enervation and the Energy Drain spell can grant negative levels.
Being raised from the dead also causes negative levels.
Whether they are temporary or permanent depends on how you get them.
With all that aside:
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"A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."
This is only saying how "temporary negative levels" work.
In addition you can also get permanent negative levels from things such as beign raised from the dead. There act as "temporary negative levels", but you don't get a save every 24 hours to get rid of them.
In the bestiary we have this monster abiltiy which is a specific supernatural ability normally possessed by undead.
Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature's description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels. Unless otherwise specified in the creature's description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the draining creature's racial HD + the draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
Format: energy drain (2 levels, DC 18); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks.
The paragraph is telling you how negative levels work when you get them due to a monster having the energy drain monster ability.
Unlike being raised from the dead which start off permanent. These are temporary at first, and become permanent if you fail the save(s).
The problem is that they have a spell , a monster ability, and a generic term all with the same name.
"A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."
This is only saying how "temporary negative levels" work.
I don't think you're contradicting anything I wrote. I'm just pointing out that there never seems to be a situation within the Core rules where 'temporary negative levels' work like that, because there's always a specific rule to override the 'normal' behavior.
@Matthew : +1
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I don't think you're contradicting anything I wrote. I'm just pointing out that there never seems to be a situation within the Core rules where 'temporary negative levels' work like that, because there's always a specific rule to override the 'normal' behavior."A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."
This is only saying how "temporary negative levels" work.
Notice that the general rule is silent about what happen to the temporary negative level is you fail the save.
"A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day." It implies but don't say that the negative level stay a "temporary" negative level.Most effect give temporary negative levels that become permanent after a failed saving throw, but the general rule cover for situations where that isn't true.
I faintly recall the existence of a magic item that staved off getting a permanent negative level by 24 hours per charge expended. Probably some 3rd party item. That is a situation where the general rule come into effect. The negative level stay temporary and you get a new ST every 24 hours.
Maybe there is some other example of that. With the number of pages of rules and items published I doubt that anyone remember all the rules all the time.
I have to say that negative levels don't really bother me. It's just another danger of adventuring. I gotta agree with Wraithstrike as well. In Lumiere Dawnbringer's case (<3 ya Lumi) it seems that the problem isn't negative levels but their group dynamics. In the OP case, it seems the problem was negative levels but a lot of other stuff that was a bit fishy or basic misfortune.
The only time I ever had a "problem" with energy draining attacks was when one of our newbie GMs thought that a pair of advanced wights were a "decent challenge" for a party of 1st level characters. I wasn't particularly offended by it though since by all accounts any other CR 4 creature played as intended would have probably killed even more of us than it did. He even called takebacksies because he didn't even know what energy drain did at the time and didn't realize they were so strong (despite the CR, but he was apparently ignoring CR or misusing it in the extreme anyway).
For parties with no clerical support (and by clerical support I mean no paladins, no clerics, no oracles), I'd definitely check with your GM to see if you can get a lesser version of the scarab of protection that lacks spell resistance aspect (I'd personally price an item that absorbed 7 negative levels before burning out at about 1100 gp).
If you have arcane support, you might want to look into planar binding via a scroll (1,650 gp) to call a Ghaele Azata. They're good and usually apt to assist heroes in doing heroic things. They cast spells as clerics and usually have death ward available. Calling up one and asking them nicely to help your comrades or prepare for a dangerous dungeon could be to your benefit (this wouldn't have helped during the combat since the casting time is too long, but if you're about to go into a vampire den then calling up a ghaele to cast death ward and a few other things might helpful. They also can heal your party in a pinch (they can cast heal which can remove a lot of bad things).
If you have a Paladin in your party, a few scrolls of death ward can save your bacon (700 gp for a CL 7 scroll) even if no clerics are anywhere in sight.
If you can't beat 'em, join up. Become undead yourself. The best way to fight undead is with undead. Undead are immune to most of the tricks other undead use (disease, energy drain, ability damage, fear effects). There are several ways to do this and should be discussed with your GM on a method that is right for your needs. Undead tend to have their drawbacks (the dead at 0hp and the inability to be raised is really bad) but at least they don't have to worry about other undead most of the time. :P
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I don't think you're contradicting anything I wrote. I'm just pointing out that there never seems to be a situation within the Core rules where 'temporary negative levels' work like that, because there's always a specific rule to override the 'normal' behavior."A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."
This is only saying how "temporary negative levels" work.
I see. Well that is not a contradiction.
A contradiction is like when book said you could and could not counterspell a spell-like ability.
Having it work a little differently depending on the source is ok.
@OP
Why didn't anyone of your spellcaster teamates used a scroll of daylight? (since having prepared daylight isn't the norm unless you know something)
Sure your character would still die (since the DM focused all the wraiths to you) but your team would then easily dispatch the wraiths.
Also even if you don't have access to teleport (for the resurection), maybe you could buy a scroll of teleport or pay a NPC to teleport you?
The Daylight spell, as mentioned previously, does not destroy creatures who are destroyed by daylight.
Normal wraiths are powerless in daylight ... including the spell.