Yeah, we're doing a pirate campaign, and the DM rolled a luck for each time we went over the ocean, the crit fail would result in the kraken destroying our ship.. or so he thought.
Me? I play gunslinger/ninja/cleric
my party consists of a wizard, an eldrich godling, and a fighter.
But on the ship were the level 3 mercs I hired to help me track a bounty. they were an assortment of gunslingers
one had a setting homebrew rifle, one had two pistols, one had a single pistol, one had a musket, and one was a half-ogre with a double hackbutt.
The DM came up with this on the fly and didn't think too much about it.
They all actually had the same feats and same pre-adjusted stats.
Then the krakken attacked, and in two rounds we killed a cr18 and we gained two levels each.
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE
the DM let it happen too close to metropolis, so we tethered the kraken to to ship and dragged it to port within a few hours, then we animated dead on it and now we have a cr18 kraken
We immediately had the kraken beach itself at which point the party wizard started retrofitting this thing as a submarine, were the new alchemist actually entered the game (He killed off his last character) while I went to town to track my bounty.
Well the krakken was under the command to give a signal when it approached its destruction, at which point the party wizard would teleport to the town I was in, grab me so I could channel negative energy on it, and then return me to work on my case.
Well at that point we looked at what we could do with something that was technically a creature, but was also a cr18 submarine. and the captain died in the fight, at which point we actually gained his ship as well.
we actually succeeded in convincing these gunslingers (The DM basically gave in at this point) to stay aboard with us as we're the best crew in the 7 seas.
the game ended when I tracked down one of my two bounties and began luring the other into the area, both are massive bounties that should be out of my league but with the party and a kraken we would win.
so..... yeah next session the DM has announced will be the last session because according to him "We've beaten him and he can't get out of it"
I'm saddened by this, my backstory has yet to be resolved and we haven't actually completed the main quest. though vast treasure stores aren't really on our mind now with the power we've gained.
*How* did you kill the Kraken. In 2 rounds.
Play by play please.
well I have mysterious stranger, twf revolver quickdraw build.
the party wizard simply was hurling fireballs and lighning bolts
and then five level 3 gunslingers also added 6 touch ac attacks per round.
we did have three separate crits, including a fair houserule that if you crit on a crit then you max critical (Which I did).
So honestly I was just full rounding with my dual revolvers, one with corrosive and one with shocking, each with weaponstraps and dry load.
The eldrige godling went ahead and put haste on the gunslingers, the kraken actually crit failed two attacks in a row.
So It did include a large sum of luck, but also we had a perfect team for a kraken fight.
with my four attacks I was hitting really heavily on this thing, while the wizard was doing somewhat the same.
the fighter did hit ONCE but it had 32 AC, the crew abandoned ship ASAP so we didn't have any canons or the like. and the captain was killed when the ship was grabbed.
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Sounds like a poorly played kraken.
A kraken only has a touch AC of 6, so a bunch of gunslingers will auto hit even at level 1, but it also has a 60' reach. It should have stayed underwater, grabbed people and pulled them under until they drowned. Can't shoot guns underwater.
My thoughts Lord Twig, the Kraken would have just pulled the ship under while remaining underwater.
Sounds like a poorly played kraken.
A kraken only has a touch AC of 6, so a bunch of gunslingers will auto hit even at level 1, but it also has a 60' reach. It should have stayed underwater, grabbed people and pulled them under until they drowned. Can't shoot guns underwater.
well it grappled the ship, so we targeted the tenticals and attempted escape but the DM did make an admitted mistake there... it ran horizontally and not vertically, at which point the gunslingers all attempted to shoot it.
and we were packing dry load so we would have been able to attack underwater regardless.
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Really a CR18 against a level 7 party is a plot device. Sink the ship, grab an NPC in each tentacle and the jet away 280' leaving the party to figure out what to do in the middle of the ocean. That would be an interesting encounter.
I will be honest and say that I have made similar stupid mistakes when I was a younger GM, but they are not unrecoverable. In this case a little GM fiat to rescue the game is reasonable.
You have a CR18 undead submarine. That will attract notice. Have a high level goody-two-shoe wizard teleport in with his paladin buddy. Paladin proceeds to smite the beached kraken into goo (or even underwater, not a problem for high level characters). Any one messes with the paladin and the wizard drops an obscene area attack on them. Then they teleport out.
Just so the other players are not upset by this the GM should explain why this is necessary.
So I sent a near god-like good aligned dragon out to visit the character. He talked sensibly to the character and let them know he needed to take the sword from them so it didn't fall into the wrong hands. In exchange he let them pick an item from his hoard. The character picked a weapon that was much more in character for them and, while good, was no longer game breaking.
Sounds like a poorly played kraken.
A kraken only has a touch AC of 6, so a bunch of gunslingers will auto hit even at level 1, but it also has a 60' reach. It should have stayed underwater, grabbed people and pulled them under until they drowned. Can't shoot guns underwater.
well it grappled the ship, so we targeted the tenticals and attempted escape but the DM did make an admitted mistake there... it ran horizontally and not vertically, at which point the gunslingers all attempted to shoot it.
and we were packing dry load so we would have been able to attack underwater regardless.
Fair point with the dry load, but it was still a poorly played encounter. Once grabbed you are not getting out (Kraken CMB +34 (+38 grappling); CMD 44). Once grappled you might be able to take a shot, but you can't reload because that takes two hands. Then you get pulled underwater and the kraken uses ink cloud for total concealment and it is end game. Which is just as bad because the game is over!
I think it would have been better used as I said above. Break the ship from underneath (not the side), grab some NPC and then leave with your lunch.
This is an example of a GM either:
A) not having any idea of how to run an encounter
or
B) Having some kind of plot device idea
If a competent GM had wanted you dead in the circumstances, you would be dead.
each arm should have been doing about 29 damage a round- and grappling (only missing or failing to grapple on a 1 most likely). thats 2 attacks.
each tentacle should have done around 20 damage around, also grappling and not missing.
If he bit then that is another 31 damage. 1 round damage average = 249 hp, spread out amongst 9 players is about 27 a piece, your mercs (unless they were elite(16 CON)) probably should have had around 26 hp each. tough guys would have around 30.
how are your 3rd level hirelings not dying right on the spot?
there were five of them, I would imagine at least 3 should die in the first round.
at that point, the kraken has only a handful of targets left, meaning 40 damage per guy- that kills the wizard and the slinger/ninja/cleric plus the other hirelings.
I just don't see how you dealt 290 hp of damage in 2 rounds, even with the hirelings. Yeah you are not missing often, but those spells can't really be bothering it that much (great saves on its part).
Given it has 20HD, I don't see how you animated it either, even at level 9 you fall short by 2 HD.
With that said, I don't think you beat a Kraken, and I don't think you beat your GM. I think GM beat himself.
I agree the kraken was not played well. Also lots of crits, crit houserules, higher tech equipment (revolvers), a 3pp class and min maxed PCs.
Yeah krakens need to be run with some patience. Tentacle grab, submerge and drown or pummel, repeat.
Yeah krakens need to be run with some patience. Tentacle grab, submerge and drown or pummel, repeat.
How is that any fun?
Yeah krakens need to be run with some patience. Tentacle grab, submerge and drown or pummel, repeat.How is that any fun?
It's not meant to be "fun". It's meant to be a creature using its strengths to destroy its enemies. Equally bad tactics would be having a level 20 lich run to Melee range and not use it's spells, or a dragon land, not use it's breath weapons or spells, and engage in Melee. If using suboptimal tactics is fun for your group then go for it, it's your game not mine. My enemies use all of their powers on my PCs.
Yep have to agree that was one badly run kraken i would have just had it capsize the ship no need to spend time smashing it up
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I need your DM's address. We are revoking his license. :)
Just kidding.
I am glad you guys enjoyed yourself (seriously, I really am),
just, please, be aware your GM is in need of some practice in "off-the-cuff" encounter design.
If most of the GM's here had been running that thing it would not have been so "Kermit the Kraken", and you would have had to swim home (at best).
That having been said, the most important thing is to have fun.
Keep a weather eye, the next one will be more dangerous.
Best of Luck,
Weslocke of Phazdaliom
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Rookie mistake + Houserules = unexpectedly easy encounter. It happens.
As a few have pointed out, the important thing is whether or not everyone had fun. I'm guessing the party did, but the GM kinda painted himself into a corner. He can fix it, though. Just needs a little planning before the next session to work out some of the wrinkles you all have introduced into his story.
One thing he sort of messed up on was the "Random Kraken Attack" bit. He intended it to be a chance to just destroy your ship (from what you seem to indicate), but he decided to let it play out instead of narrating a cutscene to you all. That, combined with the houseruled guns, is what borked his plan. A kraken (let alone The Kraken, if he has one legendary one in his world) should have been ignoring the spells due to its killer saves and the cover afforded by being under the ship. Heck, its Rend Ship ability should have been cranking out 2d8+10 damage each round to the hull of the vessel.
As for the "CR18 undead kraken" that you now have . . . not really. A kraken has 20HD, which means you have to be a 10th level caster to animate it. Desecrate would let you do it at 5th level, so I'll assume you had access to that spell. Also, that animation would require a 500gp onyx gem - not too far outside of a pirate's price range. It would have to be animated as a zombie, since it lacks a skeletal system. While it has all of its fancy tentacles, it also gains the Staggered condition, which means it can only make one attack per round. The Fast Zombie template removes this problem, so we'll assume that one, too.
When all's said and done, it's really only like a CR7 or CR8 critter you've got. It's still a beast for terrorizing the coastline, but it's not CR18 anymore.
In any case, I hope your game continues to bring entertainment to your group!
sigh
It's not meant to be "fun". It's meant to be a creature using its strengths to destroy its enemies.
OK, well the GM could have just sat down, handed out treasure and XP without even running the encounter. Would have saved them all some time. The rest of the evening could have just been spent swapping Monty Python quotes.
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sigh
It's not meant to be "fun". It's meant to be a creature using its strengths to destroy its enemies.
Now, now. Don't quote him out of context. Yes, this sentence, could have been phrased better, but he explained his point properly in the rest of his post. Beating an improperly played monster is little different from finding a code bug in a video game to beat a powerful creature with no risk. The fun is in the accomplishment, not the gaining of the loot. After all, you could have that first kobold encounter at first level sitting on a Dragon hoard, but how fun would the rest of the a game be with +5 weapons and mighty magic staves in party hands? Might as well play the game on cheat codes!
The GM shouldn't bail, but use this as a learning experience and work to fix it. The paladin/wizard thing could work. Also, are the PC's *really* the most powerful band on the sea now? Slightly higher level and much smarter/stealthy pirates could easily steal the kraken sub from them and now they REALLY have a problem on their hands! Aquatic enemies could be deadly here, sahugin, merfolk, hell , this would be a feast for a large band of lacedons! And a powerful undead would LOVE such a mount/servant. For that matter, servants of a God of the dead, trickery or chaos could give it back it's mind...
Kill me once, shame on me. Reanimate me and use me as a boat, shame on you. Shame, and my everlasting enmity, mortal peons!
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I think every DM has had this experience, where a combination of bad tactics, house rules, good play, and/or specialized characters proved dramatically more effective than they expected against what was supposed to be an overwhelming foe.
Hell, it happened a few weeks ago to my GM, who has a decade of design experience and more experience as a GM, in a game that has run for five years. An encounter that was supposed to be utterly overwhelming to us instead was a fight that the party lost by a comparatively narrow margin (and were able to withdraw from without any casualties).
You live and learn, and you don't make the exact same mistake again. As long as you are all having fun it isn't a big deal. Certainly less of a problem than when the DM goes the other way and the party dies to an encounter he expected them to steamroll.
I never understood the point of topics such as these. Are we supposed to be impressed?
I'd have been if it involved a cunning plan, good story or intresting development, but this is just a combination of non-sensical characters (gunslinger/ninja/cleric, give me a break), bad house rules (why even call it a "fair" rule, critical hits already deal more damage, what would be the point of doing even more?), a party of seven characters and, from what I can see from other posts, not a good grasp of game mechanics which boils down to 'we nuked it with crits'.
+1 to what Peter Stewart said.
Happens to most every GM at one point or another...and usually it happens more than once in their life.
I never understood the point of topics such as these. Are we supposed to be impressed?
I'd have been if it involved a cunning plan, good story or intresting development, but this is just a combination of non-sensical characters (gunslinger/ninja/cleric, give me a break), bad house rules (why even call it a "fair" rule, critical hits already deal more damage, what would be the point of doing even more?), a party of seven characters and, from what I can see from other posts, not a good grasp of game mechanics which boils down to 'we nuked it with crits'.
ok let me break this down for you because you just decided to poorly slam me and my friends.
First I the house rule is that if you crit on a critical confirmation you deal max critical, that is .25% chance of actually doing that. we decided on that because honestly it deserves merit, the house rule is not ground breaking and is not at all a massive game changer, we would have simply still defeated the kraken but MAY not have done the last damage, though two crits finished it off at the end, one from a double hackbutt and the other from a 3rd level ranged touch spell.
Second, the gunslinger/ninja/cleric is actually a gunslinger/nightshroud, the nightshroud is a class that i'm playtesting for the MCA website. it combines aspects of ninja and cleric, I don't see why you're bashing my character in this. I concieve every character before building them.
Gunslinger was not an optimization thing, I was going originally for hand crossbows but the DM ruled out drow in his setting and I needed the feats.
So to spell that out for you, I wanted a necro-assassin who used dual ranged weapons, and I built that. It's actually a character that I've had conceptualized for a while and finding a niche in pathfinder doesn't mean I'm a minmaxing monster with no flavor as you would put it.
The animate dead was from a scroll we purchased via pooling our funds together, it cost us 2k
And finally to address your first statement, it's not about impressing people, I thought it was a good story I wanted to share. It was a really fun incident that combined a lot of luck and some godly misplacements. The party does not believe in cinematic bologna, two of our characters would have simply thrown their lives away during the fight, the rest of us were making sure they lived.
As for the gunslingers? Based on the area where I hired them, the DM decided it made the most sense for gunslinger hirelings (A sort of wild-west meets steam punk port town)
Finally, the DM is not a moron, honestly he provides us with a lot of fun, we're just the result of a lot of people who go between sessions of Pathfinder and call of cthulu, as in we have been trained to think every angle in character.
I'll bring to his attention how weak this kraken zombie really is, as far as it being a zombie, we did miss those rules in our hasteful excitement..
Honestly I don't see why bashing is required, I'm not attempting to impress you, I just liked the story and wanted to share it.
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I see this happen alot with dragons. "well the dragon landed and fought toe to toe with us ..." Like someone above said, where is the fun if every dragon/kraken stays at standoff range uses fly/swim by attack and cover to make it impossible to fight. I see no problem in occasionally letting a party sow its oats by taking on something powerful that is not played very smartly. But in this case the DM obviously did not mean for things to go this way so a little DM fiat would probably help the situation back on track. Looks like you guys had fun, I rember log ago defeating an ancient dragon and under previous rules or possible home rules making dragon skin armor for all of my followers. Now there were hundred of dragon hide plate armored fighters running around causing trouble. Probably not what the DM originally had in mind.
sigh
It's not meant to be "fun". It's meant to be a creature using its strengths to destroy its enemies.
No sigh required. They gained TWO LEVELS by "defeating" a badly run encounter. However, as I later mentioned if they enjoyed themselves then that is the ONLY thing that matters. I was merely pointing out that they did get an easy victory handed to them.
Another point I want to make is that this messageboard is rife with player optimisation strategies and design (which I am totally fine with I might add, I get value from it myself) but when someone dares to give another GM some optimisation tips vs players the game is no longer "fun".
I think every DM has had this experience, where a combination of bad tactics, house rules, good play, and/or specialized characters proved dramatically more effective than they expected against what was supposed to be an overwhelming foe.
Hell, it happened a few weeks ago to my GM, who has a decade of design experience and more experience as a GM, in a game that has run for five years. An encounter that was supposed to be utterly overwhelming to us instead was a fight that the party lost by a comparatively narrow margin (and were able to withdraw from without any casualties).
You live and learn, and you don't make the exact same mistake again. As long as you are all having fun it isn't a big deal. Certainly less of a problem than when the DM goes the other way and the party dies to an encounter he expected them to steamroll.
+1. I have had this happen to me a number of times. I never shy away from it, I let the players have their victory. That is how I feel the game should be played. In fact I talk about this every few sessions with my players. If they defeat my BBEG in one shot at the end of 1 years play, I let it stand. However I then use my monsters to their fullest extent against my players and rarely pull my punches. 3 character deaths in the first 3 Carrion Crown books.
PS my posting style is "abrupt" and can come across as a bit unfriendly. Apologies in advance!
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I think every DM has had this experienceI once ran an entire encounter with hostile Storm Giants... and forgot to give them their turns. :S
Don't ask, I have no excuse.
This gave me a much needed belly laugh! Thank you! :D
First, I want to say congrats! You guys pulled one off for the ages, I always love when players can overcome crazy challenges, makes for a great story. Can't imagine how you guys survived all those tentacly attacks!
Second your GM should re-examine the Kraken. I recently got curious and read up on the Kraken myself (never used it in a game before). It has many special abilities that let it overcome trouble and escape back to the safety of the water.
Good gaming! These are the stories that make the game so memorable.
Yes, sounds fun and kudos to you for pulling it off BUT I'm with most of the posters here.
The only reason you managed to pull it off is due to crit house rules, weird class combinations (you may be playtesting it but I think this may show the class might by over balanced maybe?).However, the biggest reason was due to a GM not actually playing the Kraken to its strengths and not rally knowing what he's doing (its easliy done though especailly if the encounter does not go to plan).
I think under normal circumatances it might not have played out the way it did for you.
The problem with posting this is that you're GM/and/or the group will get pulled apart for something that clearly should not have happened sorry.
But hey, you had fun so who cares