Why, exactly, does a monk need perfect mathematical parity with a Fighter in heavy armor, when a barbarian does not?
StreamOfTheSky summed it up pretty well. The other martial classes balance with the fighter because of other factors - in the barbarian's case he can get pretty close the fighter's AC (in some cases he can exceed it) and has d12 hit dice, damage resistance, and deals out huge amounts of damage. So he may get hit more often, but is likely to kill his attacker more quickly and can soak more damage.
The monk by your logic should have less AC, combined with smaller hit dice, and less damage output. He needs something to avoid giving the player all the joys of role-playing a corpse if he gets into a fight - and like it or not, he IS a martial class, he has to get into the fight.
On the other hand if the monk gets a better AC, this offsets his lower hit points and damage output, because he gets hit less often.
So I like the idea of substituting Wisdom for Str or Dex to hit, that is a good step towards reducing MAD. I am not so sure about the automatic enhancement bonus. Whatever you say, it is replacing the AoMF.
Paizo has already reduced the cost of the AoMF down so that it is equivalent to enchanting two weapons or both sides of a quarterstaff. I think it would be reasonable to allow the AoMF to go above the current (fairly arbitrary) limit of +5 all the way up to +8. This would bring it into line with the Bracers of Armor which also goes up to +8.
As for the monk being so dependent on the AoMF, he's really not. If you can't find an AoMF your monk can use some other monk weapon instead. It would be just like a monk that has specialized in the temple sword. Is the monk unreasonably dependent on the temple sword because he decided to use one? Is a fighter unreasonably dependent on a great sword if he specializes in using a great sword?
All of that said I would go still further, and I realize what I'm about to suggest probably goes farther than what Paizo says they want to do, but it is the way I honestly think they should go...
A +8 Amulet of Might Fists costs 256,000gp, which is a lot. So I decided to do something with the Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes. I removed all of the attack limits and said that they would also go up to +8, but they only add to unarmed attacks, not natural attacks (just like the brawler armor ability) and costs bonus x bonus x 3,000. So a +8 would cost 192,000gp, which is pretty close to the 200,000gp a +10 weapon costs. I also had to add a rule that you can not use both the amulet and the body wraps at the same time. Oh, and it uses the chest slot so it doesn't interfere with the monk's robe in the body slot. This has the added benefit of freeing up the neck slot for an Amulet of Natural Armor (or something else).
So I like the idea of substituting Wisdom for Str or Dex to hit, that is a good step towards reducing MAD. I am not so sure about the automatic enhancement bonus. Whatever you say, it is replacing the AoMF.
The problem there is the AoMF's cap at +5 that limits what you can do. While this change stops the AoMF being essential it is still necessary if you want weapon properties. When you have players advocating the solution to the problem is "cast greater magic fang permanently on the monk and wear an AoMF with all the properties..." it's pretty clear that this will not replace the AoMF.
Paizo has already reduced the cost of the AoMF down so that it is equivalent to enchanting two weapons or both sides of a quarterstaff. I think it would be reasonable to allow the AoMF to go above the current (fairly arbitrary) limit of +5 all the way up to +8. This would bring it into line with the Bracers of Armor which also goes up to +8.
That's an option, I agree. Problem is this as usual with any improvement to the AoMF it is a boost as much to monsters and animal companions as to monks, if not more so.
As for the monk being so dependent on the AoMF, he's really not.
No, he really is if you want to play an unarmed monk, and that is kind of how the class is designed to appeal.
If you can't find an AoMF your monk can use some other monk weapon instead.
But temple sword aside, they all suck worse than unarmed strike.
It would be just like a monk that has specialized in the temple sword. Is the monk unreasonably dependent on the temple sword because he decided to use one? Is a fighter unreasonably dependent on a great sword if he specializes in using a great sword?
Well it becomes a bit sad that every answer to the monk's unarmed strike being underpowered is always "well use a weapon then!" If I wanted to use weapons, I'd be a fighter.
All of that said I would go still further, and I realize what I'm about to suggest probably goes farther than what Paizo says they want to do, but it is the way I honestly think they should go...
{Body wraps stuff}
...er, you know that replaces the AoMF even more effectively than my natural enhancement bonus, don't you? I think you are right, Paizo probably would not go for that.
Thanks for your feedback and ideas, though, I value every contribution.
I decided to replace Con with Wisdom for the important functions to reduce MAD, give monks full BAB, and make enhancement up to +5 a class feature (so combined w/ the amulet they can get a total +10 of stuff, like other weapons), among other things.
Why Con? I haven't seen many monk builds where con was that important, although I agree monks need it. The main problem so far as I could ever tell was getting a decent hitting-stat as well as maintaining AC, damage, and ability DCs.
It's tough to be a melee class with a d8 HD, and honestly...everyone wants Con regardless. I thought since Con was the least...how should I say it... thematically linked? of the 4 attributes monks need, and one that no monk would ever put below a 10-12 in but would also pretty much never start with more than a 14 (unless there's a racial +2 like dwarf), it was just kinda sitting there...low hanging fruit.
Plus, I've seen so many monk and other class fixes, houserules, and builds that involve replacing the attack stat with some other stat, I thought it would be cool to try something new. I mean, seriously... who the hell dumps Con? It's unheard of! (aside from characters intentionally built to be pathetic and frail)
In any case, "getting a decent hitting-stat as well as maintaining AC, damage, and ability DCs" boils down to MAD. Needing so many stats makes it too hard. Whatever stat you reduce the need for, you're helping to solve those problems.
I'm not sure I'd go for it myself over wis-to-hit, but it's certainly thinking outside the box, I'll give you that. Thing is, reducing the need for a few points of a high stat is worth more in point-buy than reducing the need for a few points of a lower stat. Or to put it another way, if I take the need for a 17 down to a 14, I've saved 8 creation points; if I take a need for a 14 to a 10, I've only saved 4 creation points.
Yeah, that's true. But having 3 important/high stats, two stats at 10, and an utter dump stat isn't that bad and not that out of line w/ other classes. Giving full BAB and re-instating access to the Improved Natural Attack feat also helps make up for not being able to pour everything into a single uber stat that affects attack and damage on top of other things, too.
My fixes are also likely not quite enough (especially considering I would be buffing all noncasters to some degree -- though not always combat-wise, such as with the Fighter -- so merely matching the current versions of said classes isn't quite good enough in the end), so there's that. I'd have to see how it works in a game or two before I went further. I also think fixing tumble (which I have houserules for already) helps a lot, especially given the Rushing Torrent feature.
As one of the original proposers of the con ac thing, i have already made some mention of its success in this thread (i referenced it as the shaolin, to differentiate from your monk suggestions) i have had a great deal of success with it. I would link it but i am restricted to my phone at the moment.
That's OK, but I don't think the con AC thing is where Paizo would go simply because it changes the emphasis of the stats too much. What happens when you put that on a high dex/wis build with low con to have high AC? Suddenly they suck.
With regard to the use of the AoMF, consider that even if it had a cap of +10 on total enchantment+abilities, requiring it for UAS boosts still represents a net loss of total overall effectiveness for the monk.
Where any other martial grabs a weapon and enhances it, the UAS monk grabs an AoMF. Problem is, the AoMF takes the neck slot. Now whatever magic effect they could have nabbed via the neck slot is no longer available to them.
Or, put another way, the slots are:
Armor: suits of armor.
Belts: belts and girdles.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.
Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.
Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.
Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.
Headband: headbands and phylacteries.
Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, and scarabs.
Ring (up to two): rings.
Shield: shields.
Shoulders: capes and cloaks.
Wrist: bracelets and bracers.
A monk cannot make use of the Armor slot and still retain most of his monk abilities and the UAS monk cannot make use of the Weapon slot. Overall magical item slots are two fewer than any other class. The WIS-to-AC and Monk-level-based-bonus-to-AC are intended to offset the loss of the Armor slot, but contribute in part to MAD. Requiring the AoMF to offset the loss of the Weapon slot just moves the missing slot to the Neck.
Providing the monk a built in level based bonus to enhancement for UAS at least offsets the *need* for the AoMF, though it still is required if you want additional effects.
Pretty much my thinking too.
How about the wrist slot then? Without armor a Monk is going to rely on Bracers of Armor to make up the lack. Having Mage Armor cast on you is great, but that's the same as having Greater Magic Weapon cast on you.
I think the problem is you are trying to fix a problem with the item by fixing the Monk. Any other class can grab one weapon and enchant it up to +10 for 200,000gp. The Monk should, somehow, be able to do the same for his unarmed attacks. Except that Paizo sees Flurry of Blows as equal to Two-Weapon Fighting, and that requires twice as many enchanted weapons for twice the cost.
Having Ki Strike add an enhancement bonus up to +5 would work in the sense that if you had an AoMF with +5 worth of special abilities you get a total of +10, but the total cost is only 100,000gp for that. Plus it is kind of clunky if you find an AoMF with actual bonuses to hit and damage on it. Those basically become worthless for a Monk, which is not good for an item that is so expensive.
How about the wrist slot then? Without armor a Monk is going to rely on Bracers of Armor to make up the lack. Having Mage Armor cast on you is great, but that's the same as having Greater Magic Weapon cast on you.
I agree, I don't like to build a class that depends on buffs from another class just to stay in the game. It really highlights weakness rather than strength.
I'm guessing that you are saying that the monk is losing the wrist slot to compensate for armour, and I agree, it's another restriction other classes largely do not have.
I think the problem is you are trying to fix a problem with the item by fixing the Monk. Any other class can grab one weapon and enchant it up to +10 for 200,000gp. The Monk should, somehow, be able to do the same for his unarmed attacks. Except that Paizo sees Flurry of Blows as equal to Two-Weapon Fighting, and that requires twice as many enchanted weapons for twice the cost.
The problem is, you can't fix the item problem with an item because that will make the old AoMF redundant, and Paizo do not want to do that. They don't want to make it better, either, because that makes monsters, animal companions, and wild-shaped druids even better.
Hence the only way to fix it is through adding abilities to the monk himself, every other door is closed.
Having Ki Strike add an enhancement bonus up to +5 would work in the sense that if you had an AoMF with +5 worth of special abilities you get a total of +10, but the total cost is only 100,000gp for that. Plus it is kind of clunky if you find an AoMF with actual bonuses to hit and damage on it. Those basically become worthless for a Monk, which is not good for an item that is so expensive.
I don't see either as a problem, actually. In the first instance, having a 'free' weapon (or half a weapon, kind of) is hardly broken (or the bladebound magus would be broken, and the soulknife - which although it isn't core got tested hard and didn't break the game).
In the second, them's the breaks. If you want a +3 sword and already have Improved Critical then a +1 keen flaming sword is wasting some properties...but it's what you found, so use it or sell it and hope to have the cash to buy a better one, your choice. The possibility of finding gear that isn't exactly what you want is the same for any character.
That's OK, but I don't think the con AC thing is where Paizo would go simply because it changes the emphasis of the stats too much. What happens when you put that on a high dex/wis build with low con to have high AC? Suddenly they suck.
what happens when you put wis to hit on a high str build? that's what most currently viable monk builds are right now. At least that's what i've seen based on the posts anyway. truth is I don't expect any new class features to hit the monk via errata. this was just me using an alternate option to what everyone else was doing (wis to hit is the most common one i've seen). I do like your monk houserules though, I even stole a feature from your mystic monk. if anyone wants to steal ideas for me as well for their own monk the thread for it is here for it is here, please leave comments in that thread as to prevent any further derail here. Thank you, and thank you to dabbler for many good ideas.
what happens when you put wis to hit on a high str build?That's OK, but I don't think the con AC thing is where Paizo would go simply because it changes the emphasis of the stats too much. What happens when you put that on a high dex/wis build with low con to have high AC? Suddenly they suck.
Nothing, they don't use wisdom regardless, they can use wisdom instead of strength. If you swap the AC bonus from Wis to Con, though, that effects existing builds a lot, unless you make it an option.
that's what most currently viable monk builds are right now. At least that's what i've seen based on the posts anyway. truth is I don't expect any new class features to hit the monk via errata. this was just me using an alternate option to what everyone else was doing (wis to hit is the most common one i've seen).
The reason I went wis-to-hit was that it didn't nerf strength builds, as strength is still desirable for damage output. If you really want to hurt things, it is still the way to go - it's just not the only way to go with wis-to-hit - you can balance the monk a little better in the stats.
I do like your monk houserules though, I even stole a feature from your mystic monk. if anyone wants to steal ideas for me as well for their own monk the thread for it is here for it is here, please leave comments in that thread as to prevent any further derail here. Thank you, and thank you to dabbler for many good ideas.
And thank you too!
Ah i see, i interpreted it as mandatory.
Nope, I wanted to leave existing monk designs as untouched (and still viable) as I could.
Another session last night, and this one was one in which the monk could shine to an extend. Taking on this section of the adventure's BBEGs (you will note I avoid spoilers) the party raided a factory and found themselves faces with two possible entryways, one of which would take some tricky navigating. The monk and rogue took this one, with one wizard in spell support. The Cleric acted as anchor at the base of the two entryways, and the fighter and another wizard took the other means in, which was a little more difficult but effectively took their foe in a pincer-move.
The monk's mobility meant he could get through his arena, and avoid the pitfalls, while still have sufficient melee strength to deal with the enemies he faced. Again, the crucial factor I think was Wis-to-hit: it just gives him that little bit of an edge.
That isn;t to say he and the fighter both didn't get injured, they did - but the damage was of a nature and extent they could both deal with equally well, as both could play to their strengths.
Another update from the last session. It was largely investigative, but involved an attack by a mob. Again, this was playing to the monk's strengths as he suffered no penalties to attacking to subdue, and the changes I made served to keep him slightly more effective this way as he beat the stuffing out of several commoners and a mob ringleader without risking killing them.
At the end of the day, the party levelled up, and our monk gained High Jump as his next qingong power.
Keep updating, I'm really interested in your monk fixes.
I will do, although we will be taking a break from this game in a few weeks time. I'm pleased with how things have worked so far, I've plugged the numbers into some DPR calculations for monks from another thread and they are not brokenly good - they reach fighter ball-park, but they don't beat it.
Another session and another source of frustration again. In an encounter on the fly I provided some extra loot to bring the party up to something approaching their WBL targets - they should be at around 16K, in reality only two are and the rest are far behind.
I randomly rolled a pair of butterfly swords as part of said loot...ideal for a monk, right? Wrong, of course, butterfly swords are not weapons monks are automatically proficient in. Endlessly frustrating...note to self that making monks proficient in monk weapons is hardly game-breaking.
On another note, the monk proved very able in kicking doors in, thansk to the DR/Hardness bypass ability, now ignoring the first 6 points of DR. He's only as good at it as the party fighter, but he's still good at it!
I sort of instinctively make monks proficient with all monk weapons. One potential and speculative suggestion: Instead of WIS replacing STR or DEX to hit, make them stack. BUT instead of it all coming at once, limit it to Monk Level. This makes the class less frontloaded, and doesn't reduce the effectiveness of any of the stats that the class is still dependent on.
It's speculative, and it's late, so that idea might be horrible.
The problem that that creates is that a monk will still need to be very MAD if the game starts at level 1. Besides, WIS replacing STR or DEX to hit I don't think would be particularly bad, assuming there's some restriction, such as only with monk weapons, or only while unarmored, since that prevents it from being a Mandatory Cleric/Druid/other Wis-character dip.
I agree. I have looked at other bonuses, and stacking wisdom with strength or dexterity gives too much opportunity to take the monk in the opposite direction. If it's level related, it needs to be a flat bonus. If it's not, then stat replaces stat.
The wisdom to hit I envisage only applies to monk weapons and unarmed strikes. I'd seriously make the monk proficient with all monk weapons as well. It makes no sense that an unarmed fighter archetype has access to monk weapons a monk does not have access to.
I'd seriously make the monk proficient with all monk weapons as well. It makes no sense that an unarmed fighter archetype has access to monk weapons a monk does not have access to.
I'd agree to grant monks access to all martial monk weapons, for that reason, but I think the later exotic monk weapons should still require a feat, since they don't seem like things that should be available off the bat to every monk
I'd seriously make the monk proficient with all monk weapons as well. It makes no sense that an unarmed fighter archetype has access to monk weapons a monk does not have access to.I'd agree to grant monks access to all martial monk weapons, for that reason, but I think the later exotic monk weapons should still require a feat, since they don't seem like things that should be available off the bat to every monk
I'd agree, if they conferred any particular advantage, but very few do. The emei piercers, for example, do not do much other than minimal piercing damage. Exotic weapon proficiency should really be reserved for weapons that are unusual even for monks, or that convey a clear advantage.
Another session, and this one became quite interesting as the enemy the party faced was just the kind that I was considering when I made my changes. A high AC, DR-equipped above-CR level monster, in this case a huge air elemental.
My thinking in these changes was that the monk should be effective against the target, not brilliantly so but sufficient for it to take notice.
In this case, the air elemental attacked the party, first targeting the halfling wizard in it's whirlwind form. As the halfling was right next to the monk, he unleashed a flurry and hit it once (high AC made it tough to hit all the same). Thanks to his DR-bypass, he inflicted some actual damage too.
The party fighter then steamed in with his Large greatclub on a prepared action, and dished at least twice as much in spite of the DR, and did the same again on his action. The air elemental zipped off with the halfling and flipped him over a 100' waterfall. Wisely, the little feller had prepped fly and withheld his action to cast while in ballistic trajectory, and ducked out of sight.
When the air elemental spun back to deliver another attack, the monk was 20' away, and used a ki-point to zip straight in and full-attack again. Again, only one hit but the damage was not insignificant. Again, the party fighter steamed in with a two-handed blow that delivered twice as much, and this time the air-elemental went down.
Overall, I was pleased with the encounter. The elemental had selected targets at random, and the two party warrior's objective was to try and protect the party. The monk ticked both of the boxes I was looking to tick:
First, his DR-bypass meant that he delivered damage, not attempts at damage. The damage he delivered was not huge, he was doing 1d8+3 compared to the Power Attacking fighter who dished an average 25 damage per hit, but because of that bypass all the damage was delivered. Even with equal attack bonuses, the monk would have dealt less damage - at best, with an equal strength damage bonus and the DR-bypass, he would only have matched the damage delivered by the fighter. So damage output was not overblown, but he was able to successfully deliver damage.
Second, the swift-action movement was helpful, it gave the monk mobility enough to get around the party and be there for the party ,members that needed support. Even with a full move-and-flurry action, he wasn't beating the fighter's charge-and-hit for accuracy or damage, but he able to get there and take significant action to draw the target's attention. Thanks to the damage he was able to inflict, the air-elemental went down a round earlier than it otherwise would have.
The problem with the MoMS is that it gives up too much and gains too little. Without flurry of blows it's offensively even weaker than a normal monk, and being able to blend styles, while nice, is not much of an advantage given (as your rightly point out) the feat investment required - frankly, I'd have given the standard monk the style feats as class feats and let them blend any styles without penalty or restriction. Instead the MoMS archetype is perfect for a fighter to dip two levels, gain two style feats, and then go on to gain more through his own class feats and be even better at unarmed combat than a standard monk (he can already beat a standard monk at it, now he can do it better). He doesn't care about losing flurry of blows, and he has full BAB.
It really is as if the MoMS were custom-made to be a dip-class for other classes to then out-monk the monk, making the monk even less unique and even less powerful by comparison with other classes.
I'm only looking at basic tweaks here on the core monk - although I do consider the impact on the wider ranging monk archetypes, they aren't my priority right now.
If most of the MoMS features of blending styles was simply added to the core monk as a feature of monks and styles, and monks could take styles with their bonus feats if they meet the prerequisites, I think that would be the easiest 'fix'.
Really? I don't consider it often primarily because the traditional monk is NOT a hulking mass of muscle, at least to my mind. To me the monk is about being wise and fast, not big and strong. Snake Style is the one that I consider indispensable: Every time you are missed (and a monk should have good AC with d8 hit dice) you get an AoO...can't fault it.
I don't have an issue with strength based monks, I would just like an effective alternative. That's one reason I went for the wis-to-hit concept, it moves emphasis away from strength.
The true beauty of Snake Style is that you can also use a Sense Motive check as AC and with what should already be a high Wisdom this can be a very significant AC even at first level. I'm currently playing a 4th level MoMS. His base AC is 17 and his SM is 13 which gives lots of room for a high roll and setting up the AoO.
I always thought there were implications for a sort of energy based warrior in the MoMS. With emphasis on ki powers like ray attacks and defensive styles to buff your defenses. I could be totally off base there though.
sorry, still mainly operating in the current rules mindset without hte wisdom to hit or anything.
a zen archer great dex wise, but if you want to do damage in melee, STR or go home. to a extent this holds true even with your changes, however, with your changes your still getting damage thru cuz of your DR bypass changes.
its why i dont make good rogues/assassins. they rely on dex, and at the end of the day, dead is what you want. thats STR's job.
I agree, and that's what I don't like. The worst thing is that there ARE options other than strength to damage, but they are either unavailable to the monk (like going duelist) or cost him more than they cost other classes (because of that d***ed AoMF +5 cap).
This is part of the reason I think wis to damage isnt a bad way to go. but the only way not to make this even a more appealing level dip for wis based characters is to either provide it as a scaling bonus similar to monks AC bonus, or provide restrictions to how it functions like monks runspeed increase.
I know damage isnt everything, but imo its the easiest and best thing. maneuvers are fun but do not scale well enough, and really as a martial class that leaves damage since imo as a 8hd class its not gonna tank for entire games well.
Agreed. However, while my monk may lose out somewhat on strength to damage thanks to Wis-to-hit, in return he gets up to +5 to hit and damage from the enhancement gain and if he buys one up to +5 of properties off an AoMF.
I'd leave wis-to-damage out of it, save maybe as a weapon property the same as is with Dexterity to damage.
I always thought there were implications for a sort of energy based warrior in the MoMS. With emphasis on ki powers like ray attacks and defensive styles to buff your defenses. I could be totally off base there though.
Don't you mean the Qingong monk? I agree, though, that ki-manipulation should have more options.
The true beauty of Snake Style is that you can also use a Sense Motive check as AC and with what should already be a high Wisdom this can be a very significant AC even at first level. I'm currently playing a 4th level MoMS. His base AC is 17 and his SM is 13 which gives lots of room for a high roll and setting up the AoO.
The hidden boost is using Sense Motive to confirm critical hits. Get a '20' on your last attack of the sequence? No problem, your Sense Motive skill is off the scale...
Awesome Dabbler. I look forward to more of this.
Thank you!
OK, last night's session involved several skirmishes with rust monsters, an Erinyes, a Flesh Golem, and a double-team of a mimmic and a mummy. The rust monsters, well the monk was able to tackle them without getting worried about losing his gear. However, his damage output was and is still low, and he contributed to one kill, while the party fighter - while he got damage armour - contributed to the other two.
Against the Erinyes, the monk really couldn't do much at first when it appeared above a bridge. His main contribution was getting the rest of the party over said bridge (it required an Acrobatics check, he used rope and an 'aid another' action to help the cleric and fighter - both had awful Acrobatics checks - across) while the Erinyes was blinded and flying around out of reach of the party. When it finally got unblinded it was very annoyed and rushed into the attack as the party dodged indoors. Now the monk was able to use Deflect Arrows (he was the last inside) and fight when the devil followed them inside.
Again, he wasn't able to do awesome damage, but his DR bypass meant that he contributed (how significantly next to the Bull's Strength-enhanced fighter dishing an average 25 damage per hit is another matter).
Third encounter was with the flesh golem. Using High Jump the monk tumbled past it to give the fighter and the rogue flanking. That and his DR-bypass again meant that he was contributing, although he certainly didn't dominate. Immediately following this the rogue went and opened the Mummy's casket, and the fighter had to rush in and save him. Meanwhile the Mimmic got the drop on the cleric and the monk had to use some alchemical solvent on his sword to chop the mimmic up.
All around, the monk made useful contributions and not just in combat, but didn't dominate the latter by any means; without the changes he would have made the non-combat contributions, but wouldn't have done much in the fights, which is frustrating when you are meant to be a combat class. This is just where I want the monk to be: able to add something to the fight, but not dominating, and still making out-of-combat contributions.
I honestly forget quingong is an archetype of its own sometimes...
Yeah thats definitely an option, but I was referencing the elemental fist and elemental stances that add wisdom to damage. It at least allows for some interesting elemental combo's... I wonder how those stances interact when you mash them up, do you think you add elemental damage from each energy type equal to your wisdom modifier?
I'm not aware of any stances, feats, or archetypes that add Wisdom to damage at all, but my knowledge of the archetypes and feats is not encyclopaedic.
The reason I would not go for wisdom-to-damage as well as to-hit is that it overloads the attribute, and makes the monk way to attractive a dip for a martial-minded divine caster.
I ran a comparison by applying the changes to a dex-based monk character that I played a while back (re-working that character to maximise Wisdom instead, obviously). The enhancement bonus meant I could tone-down the AoMF level, and use the cash to get better stat enhancers. With maximised dexterity and agile +3 AoMF, the character turned out 2d8+11 at +23 to hit max on a flurry. With my changes, and maximised wisdom instead of dexterity, I toned down the amulet to being a holy AoMF and used the cash to improve the physical stat enhancement to improve strength, so that character turned out 2d8+8+2d6 at +24 to hit. That's more than enough improvement given the added effect of the DR-bypass, and given that the latter character was able to discard the feats Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers and take others instead - if I'd taken Weapon Focus, then I'd have improved to +25 to hit. This character also has more ki, and higher DC for saves against their abilities.
the elemental styles like marid let you add wisdom to your elemental fist damage. If stacking the elemental damage stances allowed your elemental fist to do multiple energy types, it would make for a decent skirmisher I think.
the elemental styles like marid let you add wisdom to your elemental fist damage. If stacking the elemental damage stances allowed your elemental fist to do multiple energy types, it would make for a decent skirmisher I think.
Oh when combined with elemental fist, yes. Sorry, missed that bit. Thing is that's stacking with elemental damage, which can be good...but there's a reason most people take a +1 to hit and damage over elemental damage. Even with a very high wisdom your modifier is usually still going to be single digits unless you are very high level, and many creatures have resistance or outright immunity to elemental damage. It is a nice little bonus on the wis-to-hit line, I agree, but it's not a substantive difference.
i so want to playtest DEX>damage WIS>hit for monks. could make them good switch hitters as well.
sadly i dont play enough pathfinder to be able to really playtest.
I honestly don't think it's a change that would carry much benefit. The idea is to decrease MAD, but that increases MAD. At best monks would skip wisdom for higher dexterity, take Weapon Finesse and not have to buy the agile weapon property. Maximising wisdom then just loses you damage and saves you a feat.
oh for sure. I am not actually arguing against your changes, I was just sort of musing about MoMS and their effectiveness as a single class.
...not very?
Well, not dump wisdom, but it would be secondary stat instead of a primary. Which is exactly where it is right now, which reduces the effectiveness of ki and the monk's abilities.
Thing is you can already hinge things on dexterity, you just get the agile property on an AoMF and take the Weapon Finesse feat. This does reduce MAD slightly, from needing three high stats to two high stats, a feat, and a weapon property. Your suggestion removes the need for the weapon property, but it's still a major limitation.
I did look at the dexterity route for balancing the monk initially, but opted against it because of the number of str high/dex low monk builds out there. I don't want to invalidate str-based monks, I just want a viable option to them.