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Reposting this here so discussion can be moved out of GM threads--
I've gotten to the bottom of it in an old thread. Basically, daylight has a special clause, so let's look at it without daylight for a moment:
Any darkness spell requires a higher level light spell to both beat it and continue to shine light. So to shine through a darkness, you need a 3rd spell level or heightened higher light spell (such as clerical continual flame) while shining through deeper darkness requires a 4th spell level or heightened higher light spell (requires heighten in other words).
Daylight has a special escape clause that says that areas of overlapping daylight and deeper darkness return to prevailing condition, which means that technically heightening daylight is useless (continual flame is a better bet).
So here's the Venn Diagram:
Prevailing Bright Light--Darkness puts you to normal light unless there is a 3rd level or higher light spell present, in which case bright light. Deeper Darkness puts you to dim light unless there is a daylight or any 4th level or higher light spell present, in which case bright light.
Prevailing Normal Light--Darkness puts you to dim light unless there is a 3rd level or higher light spell present, in which case normal light or whatever the light spell gives, whichever is better. Deeper Darkness puts you to darkness unless there is a daylight, in which case it goes back to normal light, or any 4th level or higher light spell present, in which case it goes to normal light or the light spell, whichever is better.
Prevailing Dim Light--Darkness puts you to darkness unless there is a 3rd level or higher light spell present, in which case dim light or whatever the light spell gives, whichever is better. Deeper Darkness puts you to supernatural darkness unless there is a daylight, in which case it goes back to dim light, or any 4th level or higher light spell present, in which case it goes to dim light or the light spell, whichever is better.
Prevailing Darkness--Darkness doesn't change the light level, but it does prevent nonmagical light sources from helping unless there is a 3rd level or higher light spell present, in which case whatever the light spell gives. Deeper Darkness puts you to supernatural darkness unless there is a daylight, in which case it goes back to regular darkness, or any 4th level or higher light spell present, in which case it goes to the light spell.
Other fun facts--light spells and darkness spells can be used to counterspell or dispel others of the same or lower level if you can target the object that is the target of the other spell (usually by touching it).
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Daylight has a special escape clause that says that areas of overlapping daylight and deeper darkness return to prevailing condition, which means that technically heightening daylight is useless (continual flame is a better bet).
"Technically" has me confused here. I see no reason why a heightened (to lvl 4) daylight would not defeat a deeper darkness spell, as per the very last sentence in the daylight descriptor.
Or is this a RAI-RAW argument?
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Daylight has a special escape clause that says that areas of overlapping daylight and deeper darkness return to prevailing condition, which means that technically heightening daylight is useless (continual flame is a better bet)."Technically" has me confused here. I see no reason why a heightened (to lvl 4) daylight would not defeat a deeper darkness spell, as per the very last sentence in the daylight descriptor.
Or is this a RAI-RAW argument?
Counter and dispels is not the same as suppresses. It means you can ready an action to counterspell or even just dispel the other effect, as long as you have range (range is touch). It's in the last fun fact paragraph.
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Counter and dispels is not the same as suppresses. It means you can ready an action to counterspell or even just dispel the other effect, as long as you have range (range is touch). It's in the lats fun fact.
That's not the source of my confusion.
Three scenarios:
1. deeper darkness is cast (L3), and daylight (L3) is cast outside, then brought in to dark zone (venn diagram). My understanding: they cancel each other and we go to prevailing light source.
2. deeper darkness is cast (L3), and heightened continual flame (L4) is cast outside, then brought in to dark zone (venn diagram). My understanding: continual flame prevails.
3. deeper darkness is cast (L3), and heightened continual flame (L3) is cast outside, then brought in to dark zone (venn diagram). My understanding: daylight prevails.
What I'm reading from your post above is I am wrong (which is fine) in scenario 3 and the outcome is the same as scenario 1.
Bonus scenario:
1. daylight is cast (L3), and heightened deeper darkness (L4) is cast outside, then brought in to daylight zone (venn diagram). Outcome is same as scenario 1 above?
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Counter and dispels is not the same as suppresses. It means you can ready an action to counterspell or even just dispel the other effect, as long as you have range (range is touch). It's in the lats fun fact.That's not the source of my confusion.
Three scenarios:
1. deeper darkness is cast (L3), and daylight (L3) is cast outside, then brought in to dark zone (venn diagram). My understanding: they cancel each other and we go to prevailing light source.
2. deeper darkness is cast (L3), and heightened continual flame (L4) is cast outside, then brought in to dark zone (venn diagram). My understanding: continual flame prevails.
3. deeper darkness is cast (L3), and heightened continual flame (L3) is cast outside, then brought in to dark zone (venn diagram). My understanding: daylight prevails.What I'm reading from your post above is I am wrong (which is fine) in scenario 3 and the outcome is the same as scenario 1.
Daylight is super special because it interacts in a different way with darkness than any other spell.
1) Yes, in the area of overlap, the spells cancel out and we return to the prevailing light source. This is true no matter how much the two spells are heightened. (This covers the bonus you added in)
2) Yes. In the area of overlap, the continual flame shines normally and the deeper darkness is just ignored.
3) Deeper darkness prevails. You need a higher level light spell to act like in situation 2, and only daylight does the funky thing where they cancel in the overlap.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Counter and dispels is not the same as suppresses. It means you can ready an action to counterspell or even just dispel the other effect, as long as you have range (range is touch). It's in the last fun fact paragraph.Daylight has a special escape clause that says that areas of overlapping daylight and deeper darkness return to prevailing condition, which means that technically heightening daylight is useless (continual flame is a better bet)."Technically" has me confused here. I see no reason why a heightened (to lvl 4) daylight would not defeat a deeper darkness spell, as per the very last sentence in the daylight descriptor.
Or is this a RAI-RAW argument?
Related thread in need of more FAQ flags: LINK
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3) Deeper darkness prevails. You need a higher level light spell to act like in situation 2, and only daylight does the funky thing where they cancel in the overlap.
There was a typo in my post (should have said "heightened daylight (L4)") but I think my question was answered anyway.
I agree by RAW this is how it should work now. However, I'm not sure that is how it was intended. I don't see why daylight was intended to work differently.
Good to know tho!
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Daylight doesn't seem to negate deeper darknesses ability to shut off other light sources.
Ambient light conditions isn't defined: ie, is it with torches or without them if you're underground?
I swear, i'm going to level my sorcerer till he can cast a heightened continual flame to 4th level, and then slow his play just so he can meet more people and hand out more light rocks.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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My understanding is that "ambient light conditions" are the natural conditions that existed before there were any characters in the area. So, lumenescent lichen and a burning torch may generate the same level of light, but the lichen is an anbient condition, while the torch was brought into the room by a character.
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I swear, i'm going to level my sorcerer till he can cast a heightened continual flame to 4th level, and then slow his play just so he can meet more people and hand out more light rocks.
We have a Cleric in GA that does just that. I think two of my characters now have dull gray ioun stones with lvl 4 continual flames cast on them (one of them a level 5 continual flame!)
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Daylight doesn't seem to negate deeper darknesses ability to shut off other light sources.
Ambient light conditions isn't defined: ie, is it with torches or without them if you're underground?
I swear, i'm going to level my sorcerer till he can cast a heightened continual flame to 4th level, and then slow his play just so he can meet more people and hand out more light rocks.
It says the two of them are "temporarily negated" in the overlap. So torches and sunrod would be OK.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So is heightened continual flame the ace up your sleeve that beats any darkness/deeper darkness? Provided that they aren't heightened themselves, of course.
Yep. There's also the 8th-level cleric Sun Domain ability, but that's less like an ace up your sleeve and more like walking around with both middle fingers extended.
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My understanding is that "ambient light conditions" are the natural conditions that existed before there were any characters in the area. So, luminescent lichen and a burning torch may generate the same level of light, but the lichen is an ambient condition, while the torch was brought into the room by a character.
I'm usually willing to suspend my disbelief, but this could break for me. The moss works if it started there, but not if the druid rolls in a boulder full of the stuff....
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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My understanding is that "ambient light conditions" are the natural conditions that existed before there were any characters in the area. So, lumenescent lichen and a burning torch may generate the same level of light, but the lichen is an anbient condition, while the torch was brought into the room by a character.
I used to take the "whatever the scenario says the light level is before they get there" approach as well. Then I got to an encounter where the "scenario light" and the "PC light" were ALL from torches. I couldn't bring myself to have some torches give light and some not. :/
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I, on the other hand, had no problem with some torches giving light and some not; the way I interpreted the rules about a darkness spell suppressing light from non-magical light sources was that this ability of the darkness spell would only affect light sources within the area of the darkness spell; the "prevailing light" would be whatever light was cast by torches, sunrods, glowing lichens, etc., outside the darkness spell's area of effect.
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My understanding is that "ambient light conditions" are the natural conditions that existed before there were any characters in the area. So, luminescent lichen and a burning torch may generate the same level of light, but the lichen is an ambient condition, while the torch was brought into the room by a character.I'm usually willing to suspend my disbelief, but this could break for me. The moss works if it started there, but not if the druid rolls in a boulder full of the stuff....
And what happens if I then take the Lichen out of the room. Does this change the ambient lighting? If it does, why does removing a light source change the ambient lighting but bringing one in doesn't. This is completely illogical to me.
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My understanding is that "ambient light conditions" are the natural conditions that existed before there were any characters in the area. So, luminescent lichen and a burning torch may generate the same level of light, but the lichen is an ambient condition, while the torch was brought into the room by a character.I'm usually willing to suspend my disbelief, but this could break for me. The moss works if it started there, but not if the druid rolls in a boulder full of the stuff....
Ambient Light is "natural" or "non-magical" light.
It is whatever the light conditions were prior to, or during the advent of magical light/darkness being cast.
If you turn the lights on in your house, the ambient light in your house is light. The ambient light wouldn't be, dim light but I turned the lights on.
Defining manufactured light or "brought in" light as different from "natural" or ambient light adds a level of complexity to this very confusing situation that isn't necessary (nor do I think correct.)
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I still think that ambient light is the light cast by (non-magical) light sources which are themselves outside the darkness spell's area of effect.
We know what the spell does to this; it lowers the illumination level by one or more steps. But the darkness spell does more than that for light sources that are with it's area of effect; rather than just lowering their contribution to the illumination it totally suppresses them.
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I swear, i'm going to level my sorcerer till he can cast a heightened continual flame to 4th level, and then slow his play just so he can meet more people and hand out more light rocks.We have a Cleric in GA that does just that. I think two of my characters now have dull gray ioun stones with lvl 4 continual flames cast on them (one of them a level 5 continual flame!)
Remember that you cannot give things to another character outside of a scenario. So, you could issue out powerful ioun torches in a game, but for others to have them later, they have to buy them, or buy the spellcasting from an NPC.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Remember that you cannot give things to another character outside of a scenario. So, you could issue out powerful ioun torches in a game, but for others to have them later, they have to buy them, or buy the spellcasting from an NPC.I swear, i'm going to level my sorcerer till he can cast a heightened continual flame to 4th level, and then slow his play just so he can meet more people and hand out more light rocks.We have a Cleric in GA that does just that. I think two of my characters now have dull gray ioun stones with lvl 4 continual flames cast on them (one of them a level 5 continual flame!)well... not quite.
you can have the spell cast by a party member, and you can have one Continual Flame spell cast on an item and retain it. check out some of the other Continual Flame threads...
Hm. Do I detect a ripple in the water? Is this something that needs to be smoothed out? I imagine there was once a reason for the "spells end at the end of the scenario" clause. Perhaps this was the reason?
I ask this because, frankly, the idea that there's a dude out there casting a heightened continual light spell at 5th level for everyone makes me cringe. Another piece of the "arms race" I guess...
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Remember that you cannot give things to another character outside of a scenario. So, you could issue out powerful ioun torches in a game, but for others to have them later, they have to buy them, or buy the spellcasting from an NPC.I swear, i'm going to level my sorcerer till he can cast a heightened continual flame to 4th level, and then slow his play just so he can meet more people and hand out more light rocks.We have a Cleric in GA that does just that. I think two of my characters now have dull gray ioun stones with lvl 4 continual flames cast on them (one of them a level 5 continual flame!)well... not quite.
you can have the spell cast by a party member, and you can have one Continual Flame spell cast on an item and retain it. check out some of the other Continual Flame threads...Hm. Do I detect a ripple in the water? Is this something that needs to be smoothed out? I imagine there was once a reason for the "spells end at the end of the scenario" clause. Perhaps this was the reason?
I ask this because, frankly, the idea that there's a dude out there casting a heightened continual light spell at 5th level for everyone makes me cringe. Another piece of the "arms race" I guess...
Don't worry--it'll get dispelled before long, and then that'll be that unless they find that guy again.
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In the Blackros Matrimony, the ceremony takes place during the day, inside of a tent. Our DM ruled that the prevailing light would be dim as would be expected inside a tent during day. Since the torches were non-magical, he said they don't affect the light conditions.
This was a bummer as deeper darkness makes dim light supernaturally dark, so all of our tieflings and aasimars were screwed. Are you guys saying he did it right, or he should have counted the torches and started at normal light before applying deeper darkness.
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** spoiler omitted **
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We had a gunslinger fire a flare round at the roof and he allowed the tent to burn over a number of rounds, but we were pretty beat up by then. Doesn't really matter though as we won out in the end.
As for slashing, the combat takes place in the center of the map and the tent is quite high. Furthermore, the Shadow Demon is content to stay in one spot and sling illusory spells at people. You may allow your characters to create holes, or cut them some slack by having the fleeing wedding guests do it for them, but it's by no means a round one solution.
It just chapped me a bit as I was blind as a human despite sexy Darkvision.
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** spoiler omitted **
You mentioned tieflings. Whoever is a tiefling (may or may not be you) can take the Fiend Sight feat twice and just flat out see in magical darkness with no range limit at all. It's pretty potent, though the cost is also high (even getting the 120 foot darkvision and low-light for the first feat is pretty good though).
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Just wanted to confirm I ran this correctly the other evening.
Cavern: ambient light level--darkness
Party arrives with Ioun Torch (Continual Flame).
BBEG cast deeper darkness. This suppresses the Ioun Torch and lowers light level into supernatural darkness.
Party casts Daylight. Where Daylight and Deeper Darkness intersect, it reverts to the ambient level of normal darkness (as Ioun Torch still supressed by the Deeper Darkness).
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Just wanted to confirm I ran this correctly the other evening.
Cavern: ambient light level--darkness
Party arrives with Ioun Torch (Continual Flame).
BBEG cast deeper darkness. This suppresses the Ioun Torch and lowers light level into supernatural darkness.
Party casts Daylight. Where Daylight and Deeper Darkness intersect, it reverts to the ambient level of normal darkness (as Ioun Torch still supressed by the Deeper Darkness).
This is perfectly correct. If they had a sunrod, torch, or other mundane light source, they would have been able to use it in the overlap.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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This is perfectly correct. If they had a sunrod, torch, or other mundane light source, they would have been able to use it in the overlap.
Just to make sure I'm following you correctly:
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
So you're saying that in the daylight/deeper darkness overlap area, only the first sentence of the above passage is negated, while the second sentence remains in effect?
If so, why?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is perfectly correct. If they had a sunrod, torch, or other mundane light source, they would have been able to use it in the overlap.Just to make sure I'm following you correctly:
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.So you're saying that in the daylight/deeper darkness overlap area, only the first sentence of the above passage is negated, while the second sentence remains in effect?
If so, why?
Jiggy,
I read it as the two spells are negating each other in the overlap, so the mundane light source works.
If not, you get silliness like this:
Room 1: Lit with torches on the walls, light level dim.
Bad guy tosses deeper darkness dropping it to supernatural dark.
Good guy tosses oil of daylight negating the deeper darkness bringing the light back to dim, the light generated by the torches.
Room 2: Exact same room, but no torches. light level dark.
Bad guy tosses deeper darkness dropping it to supernatural dark.
Good guy tosses oil of daylight negating the deeper darkness bringing the light back to dark.
Good guy lights the torches, why are they different than the torches in room 1?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy,
I read it as the two spells are negating each other in the overlap, so the mundane light source works.
Okay, then why did the PCs' existing magical light source (from SammyT's story) not work?
The question is not "Why would nonmagical light sources work?"
It's also not "Why wouldn't magical light sources work?"
The question is "Why would nonmagical light sources work at the same time that magical ones are being supressed?"
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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yeah... supress both or don't supress both. Judges who do one and not the other are looking to inconvenience the players, but not kill them. Playing for a "funnier game", I guess.
I was gonna guess that maybe the "Daylight and torches" plan worked in older editions. Is that not the case?
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I read it as the two spells are negating each other in the overlap, so the mundane light source works.
Thats probably the intent but the raw only remembered to to have daylight negate the lowered light level of the deeper darkness, not its ability to shut off the light.
Heightened dancing lights ftw!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I wasn't addressing the light spell in my examples above, but it goes back, to me, to the deeper darkness negating magic of the light spell. Just like a bucket full of golf balls with light on them won't negate one darkness spell.
Taking the line to its silliest extreme, casting deeper darkness outside, at noon, (brightly lit) will either a) plunge the area of the spell into supernatural darkness (the sun being a 'non-magical' light source) or b)will do nothing at all (the sun likely being a 'higher level' source of light than a 4th level spell).
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Which question?
The only one I asked.
The one about how in SammyT's situation, the PCs' magical light source continued to be supressed within the "negation zone" at the same time that nonmagical light sources would resume functioning.
Deeper darkness supresses both magical AND nonmagical light sources, so when daylight is doing its negation thing, why are we negating only ONE of those suppressions instead of either both or neither?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Which question?The only one I asked.
The one about how in SammyT's situation, the PCs' magical light source continued to be supressed within the "negation zone" at the same time that nonmagical light sources would resume functioning.
Deeper darkness supresses both magical AND nonmagical light sources, so when daylight is doing its negation thing, why are we negating only ONE of those suppressions instead of either both or neither?
Well since I answered that one, I wasn't sure.
So you're in a glass room, at noon, and you toss deeper darkness. Does it make the room pitch black? Is it still pitch black if someone brings in daylight?
Now you're out on a plain, same thing.
Clearly it needs to be rewritten to be clearer.