PFS Monk Concern

[tcharleschapman]

Hello Everyone,

I'm trying to select my new character for a PFS game on Saturday. He will start at Level 3 because I am using GM credit for the first two level-ups.

I have a concern. I want this monk to be a helpful member of any party but I want him to be exceptional and not just a fighter without big weapons. My solution was a dex-based Maneuver Master as detailed here.

Dex-Based Maneuver Master Monk:

Monk, Maneuver Master - Dex
Male Human (Tian-Shu) Monk (Maneuver Master) 3
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 13 (+4 Dex)
hp 27 (3d8+9)
Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee Masterwork Kama +7 (1d6/x2) and
Masterwork Shortsword +7 (1d6/19-20/x2) and
Unarmed strike +6 (1d6/x2)
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Statistics
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Str 11, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +2; CMB +7 (+9 Grappling, +9 Tripping); CMD 19 (21 vs. Grapple, 21 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 14), Weapon Finesse
Traits Reactionary, Suspicious
Skills Acrobatics +10 (+14 jump), Climb +6, Perception +9, Sense Motive +10
Languages Common, Tien
SQ ac bonus +3, fast movement (+10'), flurry of maneuvers (1 maneuver, -2), maneuver defense, maneuver training, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike (1d6)
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Feat Progression:
1 - Agile Maneuvers
1H - Weapon Finesse
1M - Improved Trip
2M - Improved Grapple
3 - Combat Reflexes
5 - Ki Throw
6M - Greater Trip
7 - Snake Style
9 - Snake Sidewind
10M - Greater Grapple
11 - Snake Fang

My long-term goal is that he will be a monster tripper and grappler. The Snake Style is purely to take advantage of a high Dex and use combat reflexes and to get piercing damage option.

As you can see, though, this character never will get much in the line of damage bonuses. My question for the community is, if you showed up to a PFS game, and this character was there knocking everyone down or taking out an NPC by grappling them, would you appreciate them being there or just consider them a table nuisance because they didn't deal any damage?

[Chaotic Fighter]

You pin someone then they're not a threat and you team mates can finish him without issue. You'll be helping whether they like the way you do it or not is something you'll have to see for yourself.

[Imbicatus]

Personally, I would pick one maneuver and master it instead of using multiple different ones. If I were going to focus on tripping, I'd go halfling underfoot adept, flowing monk, or lore warden fighter with a reach weapon. If I were going to focus on grappling, Tetori or unarmed fighter. Maneuver Master is good for a dip, but I really don't think it is a good choice for someone who is staying pure monk.

[Calybos1]

It's odd, I see this a lot in PFS games: the tripping monk. It's practically an archetype of its own.

We even had one monk who refused to take an action in combat if the bad guys were already prone: "Sorry, all I do is trip. Ever."

[Chaotic Fighter]

Unarmed fighter wins at grappling.

[Imbicatus]

Chaotic Fighter wrote:

Unarmed fighter wins at grappling.

Tetori is just as good. They don't get the DR in a grapple, but they do get grab and constrict, and can grapple incorporeal creatures. They also can block a wizard escaping via teleport.

[tcharleschapman]

Imbicatus wrote:

Personally, I would pick one maneuver and master it instead of using multiple different ones.

I thought about one maneuver, but I wanted flexibility. I picked tripping over grappling to start because I can use that, with flurry of maneuvers, on a group of weak enemies to knock them down and then they provoke every time they stand up, or they can stay down there and take a -4 to hit and an effective -4 to AC, which is a brutal debuff. This seemed like a good ability to have with a party. The grappling then comes in very handy with weak CMD/CMB classes (spellcasters mainly) to knock them out for the fight.

Again, it comes back to what will a party of strangers appreciate. Yes, I could win at grappling, but knock out the BBEG and allowing no one else to join in seems a little mean.

On my side, this build also buffs up acrobatics, which will be useful for a flank-buddy and battlefield controller. It also allows a point spread that is less MAD as strength is not an issue allowing more boosting of Wisdom and Constitution.

Thanks for the feedback, though. I have been...grappling with this problem for over a day now. If it was a homegame I would just do it and let the character pass on to the afterlife if they weren't working. But, since it is PFS, I can't scrap the character and start over so, with the time already put into it, I want it to be something that will be useful and playable over the course of 27 gaming sessions.

[Thalin]

Agile Amulet; eventually get one, as you'll be able to trip them, then vicious stomp AND get an improved trip AOO.

Trip builds "get there" with damage; but yes, they are very useful. And disregard what they say; truthfully with Manuever Master there are 3 manuevers I use a lot: Trip (general-purpose), Grapple (vs Spellcasters; require 10+your CMB + Spell level to cast ANYTHING) and Dirty Trick (you can do it as part of your manuever master, basically blind someone; it's REALLY good). I even disarm on occasion; though I'm never planning to take this to "Improved", as it is mostly good at low levels.

Also, grapple is much more useful at high level, where you cannot trip huge creatures, flying creatures, etc.

On Snake Style > You'll need to get that agile amulet to really use this effectively. It's an unarmed, damage based attack only.

I only am planning to take "Trip" to the greater level. Right now my dirty trick provokes.

Are you sold on staying Manuever Master? Because the Lore Warden / Manuever Master Combo build is pretty strictly better; lots more feats, and all the relevant parts of Manuever Master. At level 5 I have 9 feats, a +17 to grapple, +16 to trip, and +14 to everything else.

Also, a Tengu version of this can have 6 trip attacks @ 7th level. Just saying. Hooray for Tengu :).

[tcharleschapman]

Thalin, thanks for that Agile Amulet recommendation. Didn't know about it. That is a bit of a game changer.

I also like the dirty trick maneuver. I keep forgetting those exist.

I checked out that Lore Warden and, while neat, it lacks the skill points, saving throws, and other interesting aspects that keep pulling me to the monk. That bonus to ALL combat maneuvers is huge, but not what I am looking for. I was trying to create a kind of Judo build which would benefit from the Trip, Grapple, and Stunning Fist parts as well as increased mobility and acrobatics. Really, the Lore Warden would be better for straight Combat Maneuvers, but there is so much more I would like to do with my character.

On a side note, if I pin an NPC, can I still inflict Damage to them? Also, can they attack while pinned or can they only attempt to break the pin?

Also, with a Dex-based buid, if I grappled the target successfully on the previous turn, then they failed their escape attempt, I get a +5 to maintain. But, being grappled I take a -4 to Dexterity. Does this penalty apply to my grapple check still?

Lastly, as a Maneuver Master you can make multiple Maneuvers in a round. If I can make two maneuvers in a round, can I choose both of them to be grapple to cause damage? Do they both have to succeed to cause damage? And, if I do not maintain the grapple, is the grapple broken?

[tcharleschapman]

And Tengu is tempting for the double-bonus to two important stats, but that is hard to argue against the bonus feat, extra skill point, and no penalty to Con.

[Thalin]

It actually has the same skill points (+2 points that go to an int base skill). But you can still do it with Manuever master alone.

Top purchase has to be the Red Ioun Stone slotted into a Wayfinder; this will give you +2 to all CMB / CMD as well (on top of the +1 AC), and is 5250 GP. You should be able to buy one by level 4ish.

For questions:

*On a side note, if I pin an NPC, can I still inflict Damage to them? Also, can they attack while pinned or can they only attempt to break the pin?

Can't attack while pin, can only attempt to break or roll 10+your CMB + Spell level to cast spells with verbal-only components. You can do damage, but at that point you usually rope them off, or drag them so your entire party gets AOOs on them.

*Also, with a Dex-based buid, if I grappled the target successfully on the previous turn, then they failed their escape attempt, I get a +5 to maintain. But, being grappled I take a -4 to Dexterity. Does this penalty apply to my grapple check still?

Yes, -4 to dex is -4 to dex. It sucks.

*Lastly, as a Maneuver Master you can make multiple Maneuvers in a round. If I can make two maneuvers in a round, can I choose both of them to be grapple to cause damage? Do they both have to succeed to cause damage? And, if I do not maintain the grapple, is the grapple broken?

No for two reasons. First, you cannot do a flurry of manuevers while in a grapple; you can just maintain the grapple and do things that are strictly legal in maintenance of a grapple. Second, until 8th level only your "free" manuever can be one that takes a standard action; you cannot tie it to a second grapple (or a blind, for instance). You can combine it with a trip or disarm. It is nice that, as a straight MM, you will eventually be able to do 2 grapples in a turn.

[tcharleschapman]

Excellent! This is all extremely helpful.

I'll look into the Red Ioun Stone in the Wayfinder.

Skill points: Yeah, but the "has to be Int-based" does not help the skills I want.

Is there a better Style Feat chain or other feats that might benefit me better for this build? Snake sounded like it would work to me. However, I don't put Vicious Stomp anywhere in the build.

[Thalin]

Most people will say Crane is better for this build; with Crane, the first two feats aren't a waste, your AC will be amazing, and once per turn you get a free attack that can BE an AOO. It does take one extra feat (but that feat also requires an AOO). For your part, you will probably find it better to just take Greater Grapple (get that CMB up), Enhanced Ki Throw, and Vicious Stomp; that will essentially let you do 3 "AOOs" every time you trip someone (Vicious Stomp / Improved Trip / Spend a Ki via Enhanced Ki Throw) that aren't reliant on them attacking you.

[tcharleschapman]

Thanks!