Goblin Squad Member
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Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?
I think it depends on what the repercussions of being allied with those factions are. At the very least, it should be something that needs level 2 or higher to use, as per the example of using Hellknight armor in the design blog. If being a member of that faction means that you are attacked on sight in certain areas, then I think it would be a good control. If it only means you need to do a few extra quests for NPCs, then it's essentially meaningless except for the opportunity cost of loosing out on things other factions may offer.
Note the reason I've been harping on this topic so much....and I'm NOT even planning on playing an Assassin, I'm going to be one of those goody-two-shoes LG straight up melee fighters....
Is that I want to try to promote other forms of game-play and meaningfull conflict beside the same old boring vanilla "my to hit, vs your AC, see who can drop who's hit points to 0 first" that MMO's and games have been stuck with for decades now. PFO has the perfect opportunity to break out of that box and advance meaningfull game-play and meaningfull conflict that fall outside of that axis.
Assassination is one of the things that is actualy a perfect fit for game-play along a different axis...because it really is intended (under it's real usage) to perform an entirely different function. I'd hate to see it, along with so many other things reduced to some sub-factor of who can knock who's hit points down to zero first.
There are so many other interesting axis of game-play and conflict availble to be explored. YMMV.
I'm not going to play an assassin either, but for much the same reason, I support where your going with your posts. Rather then have yet another game where the assassin is some form of hybrid boring fighter, why not rethink the whole assassination concept and make it fun for both the assassin and the victim. (I believe that is possible, but a lot of preconceived notions will have to be overcome).
I like the idea of pitting the assassin against the targets security systems and perception/preparations. Being a fan of Stephen Brust's Jhereg <sp?> books, his main character, an assassin, goes into great detail setting up his attack on the target. Observation, disguise, subterfuge, all sorts of things go into a successful assassination. I would be cool to bring that into the PFO assassins setup. I think it could be done without taking up inordinate amounts do development time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is a general, generic 'assassin trick' or tricks that allows them to do their job, then no. Give the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men allied/trained assassins options for other cool replacement tricks. But an assassin should be able to operate without the blessing of the other organizations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?
I'm not sure how much of a limitation it is, without knowing what the perks are from other factions that they're giving up, and (as Imbicatus said) what the implications are of being aligned with that faction.
Moreover, as I mentioned to Nihimon earlier, it's hard to know if a limitation is really a balancing factor without knowing what it's balancing against. How powerful/versitile the ability is would affect my judgement on whether a limitation was a good fit or not. We don't really know what you guys are cooking up in terms of "cool assassin tricks".
Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?
Ditto to what the others are saying.... I would think that so long as the requirements preclude a player from joining multiple factions, that only those who really want to be assassins would bother. Personally I would make the conditions and requirements pretty tough, especially if the assassin tricks are really cool ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?
Well I remember reading about the origins of Assassin, in fact wiki: Assassin has a useful summary and the ingredients of that were more or less:
- Specialist Training (both physical and learned ie languages/culture, disguise)
- self-sacrifice
- high profile targets and ideally as publicly explicit show of assassination as possible for maximum political fear.
- Affiliation to an order with some sort of religious purpose and loose nexus of branches of this order distributed geographically
- Sometimes the fear of assassination was enough
- The assassin would often embed themselves for a long time in the actual culture.
- Mostly use a curved knife sometimes with poison
- Possibly addicted to "hashish" from hemp with their spiritual leader promising paradise, no doubt for a successful mission - though this is pure conjecture.
In game,
- obviously avatars come back from the dead, so higher penalties for being assassinated to the character?
- frequency of assassination attempts needs to be proportional to the penalties applied?
- The number of assassins who take this role imo should be lower, therefore more restrictions and more elite. IE Assassins only (in above) go for high profile figures such as leaders (political, general, religious) not common people.
- Tieing assassins to a particular religious order or other with a very narrow agenda fuelled by assassination services could fit the previous?
- Agree with GrumpyMel/Valandur, more a case of an activated assassin being able to slip into a security area and past guards and strike a blow that perhaps knocks out the settlement's "spirit or morale" rating maximally while killing the target?
- Some measures to create an arms race between the assassin and the security against assassins, so that assassins need to keep training/xp in this role with the most elite the most dangerous/costly?
=
I can't say whether the limitation would bother an assassin player or not, but the dedication to this path and the use of alts and so forth would seem to be a possible requirement. Ideally the affiliation with these npc factions would be secret and if found out, booted from settlement etc - so you have an assassin who has spent time in a settlement of months then suddenly outing as an assassin and obviously being booted from the settlement (alignment shift)?? So the real affiliation is the above NPC assassin factions (the true masters)?
Edit: This quote from the wiki particularly stuck out:
Spending most of his days at Alamut working on religious works and doctrines for his Order, Sabbah was never to leave his fortress again in his lifetime. He had established a secret society of deadly assassins, which was built in a hierarchical format. Below Sabbah, the Grand Headmaster of the Order, were those known as "Greater Propagandists", followed by the normal "Propagandists", the Rafiqs ("Companions"), and the Lasiqs ("Adherents"). It was the Lasiqs who were trained to become some of the most feared assassins, or as they were called, "Fida'i" (self-sacrificing agent), in the known world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being, that certainly is possible....I'm just having trouble understanding why PC death outside of combat is such a hangup to people in an environment where death is expected to happen so frequently and comes at so little cost?You're mischaracterizing the opposition. No one is opposed to assassins killing people. There's opposition to the thought that this one thing should run counter to several stated design goals. There is opposition to people losing a combat encounter they don't know they're in. No matter how much you insist otherwise, it's combat. One player initiates an attack on another player. If the victem loses the encounter, he suffers death and all the penalties associated with it, PLUS extra penalties for being assassinated. Your only argument for "it's not combat" seems to be that the victim isn't aware he's being attacked.
This seems true. From the VERY LITTLE we know about assassination, it is:
A contract against one player that ends with the death of that player and that death carries the normal consequences for that player + some others (bind point severing).I think assassination as a form of sabotage against a settlement is a great idea, and we've kicked that idea around before and I think it had some support. The suggestion that the character's effects on the settlement be affected is interesting to me. This would focus assassination on characters with leadership skills, which might be desirable, but I think there might be more reasons to call a hit on somebody (that pesky merchant that is about to start on the leg of his trade route that ends in massive undercutting in one of your markets). So maybe that can be one aspect or a choice made when the contract is put out.
If assassination were changed such that the assassin 'observed' the mark for several days until the job was 'completed,' after which there was a chance the target would die in 3 days from poisoned tea (based on the skills of each party), and then it affected "political/economic instability through fear, panic, loss of faith in an organization, political or economic entity and disruption of it's organizational structure, chain of authority and decision making capabilities," then yes, assassination is much different than combat. But assassination has so far been described as above. That description of an assassination is also one example of many diverse forms of assassination.
EDIT: I think a big problem is that the main consequence of assassination IRL and in fiction, death of an important leader (which leads to widespread fear and/or infighting in the power vacuum) doesn't map very well to the game (no permanent death means no power vacuum and no direct loss of leadership). Also, much like in real life, being 1-shot sucks =P
I think we can keep to GW's goal of keeping players in control of their character by not having extreme CC, stunlocking, massive instant crit damage, and chances of instant death, while still providing assassins an alpha-strike advantage if they put the typical assassin's diligence in and take time to observe and prepare for the attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Much of what the assassin does is reach the target where the target believes he is safe.
Perhaps the peculiar power of the assassin should be that if he can reach the walls of a settlement he can force an one-on-one engagement with his target, even though the victim is supposedly safe within that settlement.
Once he has the victim in combat they can fight uninterrupted, using whatever powers they have earned.
Perhaps the game spawns a combat pit and both appear within it until one or the other either dies or surrenders.
Provide an opportunity for the victim to try and buy the assassin off.
I REALLY like Being's idea of abstracting it out such that the assassin can pull the target into a 1v1 combat encounter. Surely, an assassin will surveil the mark in order to know how to best exploit his weaknesses and will prepare him/herself to do so, which seems in keeping with the trope.
The length of time the target is stuck in the 1v1 situation with the assassin can be adjusted by the skills trained by the assassin and those trained by the target. There can also be various buffs or debuffs applied based on each character's training. The conditions for successfully 'fleeing' the encounter for the target could change based on a skill and counter-skill.
The target then at least has a chance of fighting back or fleeing. I like this idea too because it could be set up such that an assassin could choose skills that specialize in assassinating either targets that typically flee (straight merchants or leaders) or targets that would stand and fight (combat-oriented characters) by getting skills that reduce the ability to flee or reduce the ability to use combat abilities.
At the end of the encounter, either the two are placed back into the world where they were and combat or fleeing continues, but now is subject to the scrutiny of nearby players (with the assassin having the attacker flag, of course), or, if successful, the assassin comes back into the world stealthed (where that stealth bonus from the "Assassin" flag comes in handy).
This seems to me to give the assassin the ability to have an alpha-strike and even get away cleanly, but also subjects the assassin to surveil the target for combat weaknesses and ideal locations to make the strike. Also, the 'passivity' on the part of the target is almost a non-issue, as it is almost no more passive than a typical combat encounter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This seems true. From the VERY LITTLE we know about assassination, it is:
A contract against one player that ends with the death of that player and that death carries the normal consequences for that player + some others (bind point severing).
Actually, it's not quite that. What we know is two part:
a) There exists an assassination contract you can take out for the death of someone.b) you can flag yourself as an assassin, with the attendant bonuses and penalties and, if you kill the target, they die and also probably lose a bindpoint.
We do not know if you have to be flagged assassin to take an assassination contract.
If assassination were changed such that the assassin 'observed' the mark for several days until the job was 'completed,' after which there was a chance the target would die in 3 days from poisoned tea (based on the skills of each party), and then it affected...
The problem is that this is still a situation where the assassin plays against the server, and if he wins, the target dies.
The fundamental problem with assassination, or pickpocketing, or similar skills is that the victim doesn't find out he's playing until the contest is over.
I REALLY like Being's idea of abstracting it out such that the assassin can pull the target into a 1v1 combat encounter. Surely, an assassin will surveil the mark in order to know how to best exploit his weaknesses and will prepare him/herself to do so, which seems in keeping with the trope.
The length of time the target is stuck in the 1v1 situation with the assassin can be adjusted by the skills trained by the assassin and those trained by the target. There can also be various buffs or debuffs applied based on each character's training. The conditions for successfully 'fleeing' the encounter for the target could change based on a skill and counter-skill.
The target then at least has a chance of fighting back or fleeing. I like this idea too because it could be set up such that an assassin could choose skills that specialize in assassinating either targets that typically flee (straight merchants or leaders) or targets that would stand and fight (combat-oriented characters) by getting skills that reduce the ability to flee or reduce the ability to use combat abilities.
At the end of the encounter, either the two are placed back into the world where they were and combat or fleeing continues, but now is subject to the scrutiny of nearby players (with the assassin having the attacker flag, of course), or, if successful, the assassin comes back into the world stealthed (where that stealth bonus from the "Assassin" flag comes in handy).
This seems to me to give the assassin the ability to have an alpha-strike and even get away cleanly, but also subjects the assassin to surveil the target for combat weaknesses and ideal locations to make the strike. Also, the 'passivity' on the part of the target is almost a non-issue, as it is almost no more passive than a typical combat encounter.
How would something like this work if the target has bodyguards? If I'm a merchant and have any reason at all to think an assassin is after me, I'll be hiring a few. Also, if someone gets pulled into one of these 1v1s, he's going to call out on teamspeak or something similar where he was, and have a gang of his buddies waiting for them to reappear. If the stealth is good enough that the crowd can't pierce it, they can still rain AoEs down through the area to catch the assassin in the blast. It really seems to introduce as many problems as it solves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In game,
- obviously avatars come back from the dead, so higher penalties for being assassinated to the character?
- frequency of assassination attempts needs to be proportional to the penalties applied?
- The number of assassins who take this role imo should be lower, therefore more restrictions and more elite. IE Assassins only (in above) go for high profile figures such as leaders (political, general, religious) not common people.
- Tieing assassins to a particular religious order or other with a very narrow agenda fuelled by assassination services could fit the previous?
- Agree with GrumpyMel/Valandur, more a case of an activated assassin being able to slip into a security area and past guards and strike a blow that perhaps...
The problem is, you can't code for things like frequency of assassination attempts, or number of assassins, or for things like a player-run settlement kicking the assassin out if discovered. All you can do is adjust the capabilities and the costs to aquire them to try to adjust these things indirectly. At the end of the day, no matter what you intend an ability to be used for or how you intend it to be used, you can't control that. You can only control what the mechanic you put into the game is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fundamental problem with assassination, or pickpocketing, or similar skills is that the victim doesn't find out he's playing until the contest is over.
Ignoring the particular implementation details of it for now, would it alter your perspective if the victim were first engaged in some kind of contest where player decisions and character skill were important?
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would something like this work if the target has bodyguards?
My impulsive answer is that the assassin should find his little trap has backfired, and he now faces any bodyguards that were with the target at the time, whereupon his primary mission changes to escape.
One of those Ooopsy moments we all cherish so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If assassination were changed such that the assassin 'observed' the mark for several days until the job was 'completed,' after which there was a chance the target would die in 3 days from poisoned tea (based on the skills of each party), and then it affected...The problem is that this is still a situation where the assassin plays against the server, and if he wins, the target dies.
The fundamental problem with assassination, or pickpocketing, or similar skills is that the victim doesn't find out he's playing until the contest is over.
Personally, I agree.
How would something like this work if the target has bodyguards? If I'm a merchant and have any reason at all to think an assassin is after me, I'll be hiring a few. Also, if someone gets pulled into one of these 1v1s, he's going to call out on teamspeak or something similar where he was, and have a gang of his buddies waiting for them to reappear. If the stealth is good enough that the crowd can't pierce it, they can still rain AoEs down through the area to catch the assassin in the blast. It really seems to introduce as many problems as it solves.I REALLY like Being's idea of abstracting it out such that the assassin can pull the target into a 1v1 combat encounter. Surely, an assassin will surveil the mark in order to know how to best exploit his weaknesses and will prepare him/herself to do so, which seems in keeping with the trope.
The length of time the target is stuck in the 1v1 situation with the assassin can be adjusted by the skills trained by the assassin and those trained by the target. There can also be various buffs or debuffs applied based on each character's training. The conditions for successfully 'fleeing' the encounter for the target could change based on a skill and counter-skill.
The target then at least has a chance of fighting back or fleeing. I like this idea too because it could be set up such that an assassin could choose skills that specialize in assassinating either targets that typically flee (straight merchants or leaders) or targets that would stand and fight (combat-oriented characters) by getting skills that reduce the ability to flee or reduce the ability to use combat abilities.
At the end of the encounter, either the two are placed back into the world where they were and combat or fleeing continues, but now is subject to the scrutiny of nearby players (with the assassin having the attacker flag, of course), or, if successful, the assassin comes back into the world stealthed (where that stealth bonus from the "Assassin" flag comes in handy).
This seems to me to give the assassin the ability to have an alpha-strike and even get away cleanly, but also subjects the assassin to surveil the target for combat weaknesses and ideal locations to make the strike. Also, the 'passivity' on the part of the target is almost a non-issue, as it is almost no more passive than a typical combat encounter.
I think we can come up with some relatively simple solutions, and I don't even think some of these are problems, but features.
--Hiring some bodyguards to follow you around to defend you in the case where an assassin fails in his alpha strike or avenge you in the case where he succeeds seems like a legit strategy.
--If somebody is subject to an assassination, they could certainly sit in a teamspeak with persons that he/she hopes are nearby and can help him respond to an attack. In my mind, the whole encounter will last perhaps 30-120 seconds, however, which seems to reduce this particular issue.
--Perhaps, the outcome of the abstraction of the alpha-strike into a combat encounter simply determines whether or not the alpha-strike was successful. If not, both parties re-enter the world with their current combat status. If it is successful, the target's husk appears and the assassin appears in stealth in the same condition as he was in when he started the encounter.
These problems are easily countered by an assassin putting in the due-diligence that gives him the best chance of success (knowing the target has no fire resist so he equips flaming daggers, waiting for the target's bodyguards to log off, waiting for the target to be in a relatively remote area so he can't call out on teamspeak, etc), which is an expectation of the trope.
Also, the assassin can make the decision of whether he wants to initiate the encounter when he is standing next to the target so that if/when he fails to kill the target in the encounter he has a greater chance of being able to finish him off in the world, or if he's sure of success or worried about reprisal, initiate it from a distance (out-of-the-way place or a balcony in a tavern) so that he has a better chance of evading reprisal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is, you can't code for things like frequency of assassination attempts, or number of assassins, or for things like a player-run settlement kicking the assassin out if discovered. All you can do is adjust the capabilities and the costs to aquire them to try to adjust these things indirectly. At the end of the day, no matter what you intend an ability to be used for or how you intend it to be used, you can't control that. You can only control what the mechanic you put into the game is.In game,
- obviously avatars come back from the dead, so higher penalties for being assassinated to the character?
- frequency of assassination attempts needs to be proportional to the penalties applied?
- The number of assassins who take this role imo should be lower, therefore more restrictions and more elite. IE Assassins only (in above) go for high profile figures such as leaders (political, general, religious) not common people.
- Tieing assassins to a particular religious order or other with a very narrow agenda fuelled by assassination services could fit the previous?
- Agree with GrumpyMel/Valandur, more a case of an activated assassin being able to slip into a security area and past guards and strike a blow that perhaps...
Atm, the current assassination description is for perhaps an acolyte lowest level assassin - ie in regular combat to increase the chance of crit/severing a thread/bind point via flag.
So this level of assassin could be open to membership but with narrow alignment requirements. A higher rung up the assassin scale, might then be proportional to the number of assassin temples or something or indeed to the number of settlements and only open via this frequency, leading to the assassin option of going after leaders and the like to damage politically for eg? When this discreases, the hierarchy chooses who remains higher level and who only accepts the acolyte flags (ie training level)? The acolyte level could then be fierce competition to have most success to be awarded or considered awarded for the higher levels ie using the names from history "chief propagandist" equivalent? So just as much internal scheming in assassins as anywhere else, possibly with break away or rival factions too, to further muddy the waters?
On another note, I could just see alts as being prime material for assassins, going about their settlement business and surrepticiously sneaking off to the assassin's temple for training... And if/when discovered... another alt on it's way?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the stealth is good enough that the crowd can't pierce it, they can still rain AoEs down through the area to catch the assassin in the blast.
Well, if Friendly Fire is in the game for AoEs, they they will kill the person they are guarding. Also, if there is only tab targeting and no reticule targeting, then you likely wouldn't be able to target them at all if you can't see them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fundamental problem with assassination, or pickpocketing, or similar skills is that the victim doesn't find out he's playing until the contest is over.Ignoring the particular implementation details of it for now, would it alter your perspective if the victim were first engaged in some kind of contest where player decisions and character skill were important?
That is exactly what I was trying to express, Nihimon.
On that point, you know it might not be entirely out of line to inform the target when a contract was put out (or accepted) on them. It still doesn't tell them exactly when, where or who....but it gives them enough info to know there is a contest happening.
It's also something that one often see's as a plot device in fiction...e.g "Pssst....Hey Vinnie...I thought you should knows, you got a contract put out on you. Remember, you didn't here nothin from me."
You could maybe even tie it to some sort of "street-wise" skill or feat. Another reason for people to train in skills that are not directly tied to combat and make them and diversification important....which I always consider a good thing. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being, Kakafika
The issue with bodyguards is as follows: You have to have some way to identify to the server that you're guarding a target, meaning a flag of some sort. Which then introduces the possibility that the assassin sneaks into the room while the target talks to his eight heads of security who, for whatever reason (they don't know an assassin is coming, for example) don't have that particular flag up this second. So the assassin pulls his target into this oubliette and ninjaganks him, ostensibly right in front of his eight security chiefs, but none of them can do anything because the server didn't know they were flagged.
A better approach (if we really want to instance this) would be to pull everyone in a small area around the target in with them. Say, everyone within ten feet. This still gives an attentive assassin the opportunity to catch the target out of reach of anyone who can help. I still don't think this makes much sense, but if I were compelled down this route, it's probably how I'd set it up.
If somebody is subject to an assassination, they could certainly sit in a teamspeak with persons that he/she hopes are nearby and can help him respond to an attack. In my mind, the whole encounter will last perhaps 30-120 seconds, however, which seems to reduce this particular issue.
Even thirty seconds is a long time. Unless the assassin manages to catch his target outside of town, alone, odds are pretty good he'll have help waiting for him when he reappears.
@Imbicatus
As far as friendly fire, the person on TS can easily say whether he's coming out alive or not. If he's coming out alive, then presumably the assassin is visible (since he's now engaged in combat stealth would be very difficult). If he's not coming out alive, then friendly fire isn't much of a concern.
@Avena
It's probably the fact I haven't slept in three days, but I was unable to parse that. I'm sorry. Maybe you can rephrase?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ignoring the particular implementation details of it for now, would it alter your perspective if the victim were first engaged in some kind of contest where player decisions and character skill were important?
That is exactly what I was trying to express, Nihimon.
On that point, you know it might not be entirely out of line to inform the target when a contract was put out (or accepted) on them. It still doesn't tell them exactly when, where or who....but it gives them enough info to know there is a contest happening.
It's also something that one often see's as a plot device in fiction...e.g "Pssst....Hey Vinnie...I thought you should knows, you got a contract put out on you. Remember, you didn't here nothin from me."
You could maybe even tie it to some sort of "street-wise" skill or feat. Another reason for people to train in skills that are not directly tied to combat and make them and diversification important....which I always consider a good thing. YMMV.
Having some sort of notice that someone's accepted a contract on them isn't good, but it would at least be better, it would at least allow them to turtle up. I'm assuming assassination contracts should have a similar expiration time to bounty contracts? IE, once you take the contract, you have 24 hours to complete it or it lapses and has to be issued again? Hiding out waiting to randomly fall over dead isn't fun.
Also, then you just have the person logging online long enough to queue up whatever they need for the next X duration and logging off to play an alt who isn't about to drop dead without warning. Makes assassinating them pretty difficult, unless you can assassinate someone who isn't online. Which is sort of an uber dick move when you assassinate someone who hasn't logged in in a week to even get the message he's targeted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having some sort of notice that someone's accepted a contract on them isn't good...That is exactly what I was trying to express, Nihimon.Ignoring the particular implementation details of it for now, would it alter your perspective if the victim were first engaged in some kind of contest where player decisions and character skill were important?
I was not suggesting a notification.
I was suggesting an actual "combat" that takes place between the Assassin and the Victim, but that uses special rules and special skills.
The problem with the "arena assassination" is that it means nowhere is safe for the target. Now, I've heard Bluddwolf saying that's how it should be. I disagree.
A target taking shelter in his friend's settlement should be safer than a target who doesn't even know he's got a mark on his head. If he hires a bodyguard (say, me) to protect him, I want to be able to actively do so. If the assassin can force his target to fight alone, why would the target bother trying to get help at all?
On the flip side, I can always just kill anybody with the Assassin flag who comes near the boss. Assuming the flag will be visible. And will the assassin be able to force the "instance" while being attacked? I'm thinking not.
And if he isn't able, all somebody has to do to avoid getting Instanced is make sure he's surrounded by people--which is exactly what the "arena assassination" is supposed to counter.
If the "instance" can't be used except when it's not needed, is there really much point in designing it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was not suggesting a notification.
I was suggesting an actual "combat" that takes place between the Assassin and the Victim, but that uses special rules and special skills.
Well, let's consider what something like that should look like. My thoughts:
A) Above all, it needs to be fun, not some obnoxious, gimmicky minigame (I don't think the devs are likely to put something like that anyway, but it still needs to be said). By this, I mean it shouldn't be something like hitting buttons as they scroll rapidly across the screen, or some other sort of quick-time event. This would be running counter to the intent to avoid twitchy combat.
B) The victim should not have to spend as much time and XP on "Don't get assassinated" skills as the assassin does on assassin skills. Having a chance to survive should not be predicated on having counter-assassin as your primary focus. Some expenditure is rational, but "not getting assassinated" is not a character's full time job.
C) Having bodyguards should provide an advantage of some sort in the encounter. Ideally it should also involve the bodyguards. This raises the issues I mentioned earlier about specifically being flagged bodyguard vice being mid-conversation with the target and unflagged, so again, maybe it involves everyone in 5-10' of the target, and they can choose to either help the target or the assassin. Gives the opportunity for cooperative assassinations, or guard betrayals?
D) It shouldn't be one&done or a one-shot affair, both sides should be actively involved somehow. But it should still be relatively quick. The idea is to avoid a protracted 2-5 minute fight while reinforcements come running.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Avena
It's probably the fact I haven't slept in three days, but I was unable to parse that. I'm sorry. Maybe you can rephrase?
Probably me, thinking out loud format/stream of consciousness:
1. Assassin flagging = Assassin acolyte level 1 (combat level)
2. Higher level Assassin (Master, Grand Master) options that target settlement moral index or other suitable development measure atst as a contract on a LEADER/Prominent settlement figure. (political level)
3. "Higher level" option is available only to a limited number of assassins proportional to some current, relevant game measure, eg number of settlements or temples of asssassins or any combination. To keep the frequency in check of number of assassins that can be planning a political assassination.
4. Higher level option requires an assassin character to be a member of said settlement for a number of months (simulate embedding) - before the target is open for the kill. Adding further discussion: Possibly the target is made away they are targetted at that time?
ie flagging for combat is just a short game, but the political use of assassination of a leader (and damage to the settlement's index) a long game such as spies.
It's an idea to fit in with the historical idea of assassination - not being merely a successfully executed murder for a price, but also for political/religious influence weapon of war.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having some sort of notice that someone's accepted a contract on them isn't good...That is exactly what I was trying to express, Nihimon.Ignoring the particular implementation details of it for now, would it alter your perspective if the victim were first engaged in some kind of contest where player decisions and character skill were important?
I was not suggesting a notification.
I was suggesting an actual "combat" that takes place between the Assassin and the Victim, but that uses special rules and special skills.
Mechanicaly, I was thinking something like this....
Step1: Assassin needs to get into close proximity to target. If the target is staying in a settlement that the Assassin doesn't normaly have access to, this can be a chore unto itself.
Step2: The Assassin needs to execute the "Prep" move. This requires the Assassin to stay in close proximity to the target for 30 seconds while he's preparing the attempt. Assassin clicks the button to Prep and a 30 second timer ticks down at the end of that timer, the "finnishing" move becomes availble.
Step3: The Assassin executes the "Finnishing" move. Which is a 3 second (or whatever, short time) segment at the end of which the attempt is actualy made.
Now, during either Step2 or Step3 if the victem goes "combat ready" or gets too far away from the Assassin the current move is interrupted.
During Step2: Every person in close vicinity to the Assassin, including the victem, gets a skill check (probably perception or something like that), maybe more then one...to notice the Assassin "prepping" and if they choose they can "finger" him which breaks the timer and reveals the Assassin and PvP flags him. If in a settlement or the victem hired NPC bodyguards, these would get a check as well.
During Step3: The victem gets a skill check (probably perception) against the Assassin, if the succeed...all of the stuff in Step2 happens to the Assassin plus the Assassin gets a strong (but short) combat debuff as thier target surprises them and they get caught in the middle of a move.
Now active play things that modify the attempt....asside from not staying in one place too long and having lots of friendly eyes around you, which obviously makes attempts much harder.... being engaged in something that takes alot of concentration (e.g. crafting, scribing a spell) makes it tougher to spot an attempt, night time makes it tougher to spot an attempt, being seated or prone makes it tougher to spot an attempt, atmospherics like rain or fog makes it tougher to spot an attempt. Actively searching (e.g. action "Search") makes it easier to spot an attempt (or perhaps gives you an extra chance to notice). Being BEHIND the target makes an attempt tougher to spot.
There's lots of conditional modifiers you can put into this to effect it.
So the active gameplay for a target is:
- Keep lots of freindly eyes around you.
- Hire body-guards
- Don't stay in one place too long.
- Occasionaly you (or a bodyguard) do an active "Search" of a surrounding.
- Keep your back to a wall.
The active gameplay for the assassin is:
- Get to where your target is in the first place.
- Find a way to approach your target when no one else is around
- Pick a time when your target is distracted, sitting or lying down.
- Approach the target from BEHIND
- Find an opportunity when your target is going to remain stationary or won't be moving quickly.
I'm sure we can think of some applicable other factors as well. That's active game-play.....passive game-play involves assassin skill vs target (or bodyguards) skill.
I also reiterate that I don't think target notification (if they've invested in a skill/feat) is a bad thing.
Sure the target could just log out and avoid playing for a day until the contract ran out...but that achieves functionaly the same thing assassination would...denying them the full use of thier skills to postively effect the game world. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And all that still leaves the player unable to react to the attempt until it has failed. That's like saying "Putting on armor and sticking around with some friends" is all you need for combat to be fair, with no ability to fight back until the server has decided the opponent can't kill you.
That still boils down to "I'm sitting here doing my thing. Oh, now I'm dead. What the heck just happened?" Which is almost never fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dario, I agree with all your points. I would add:
B) I would want the target to balance anti-assassination skills with assassination-worthy skills, and with likely risk factors.
C) I could easily see skills that would activate nearby allies as bodyguards.
D) Absolutely, there should be a back and forth between both parties, with many factors coming into play. I would suggest that activating nearby allies should have to be done immediately, or that only allies who are nearby when the encounter starts should be eligible. It should be possible for the Assassin to be present in the Settlement and able to engage his target in a way that it doesn't matter how many allies come pouring in after the encounter starts. What happens during the encounter should fully determine the Assassin's success and his ability to escape undetected.
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Goblin Squad Member
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D) Absolutely, there should be a back and forth between both parties, with many factors coming into play. I would suggest that activating nearby allies should have to be done immediately, or that only allies who are nearby when the encounter starts should be eligible. It should be possible for the Assassin to be present in the Settlement and able to engage his target in a way that it doesn't matter how many allies come pouring in after the encounter starts. What happens during the encounter should fully determine the Assassin's success and his ability to escape undetected.
I actually have concerns about this one. This is going back to the assassin's oubliette that was suggested earlier and has the same problems. If more people can make it to the encounter in time, they should be able to contribute. Particularly against the escape portion. If successfully gibbing the target is the determiner of whether you escape cleanly, it takes a large amount of risk out of the equation for the assassin. Once somebody goes down is when everything goes on high alert and it's most dangerous for the murderer.
Edit to add: Yes, this puts the assassin at a disadvantage. Frankly, he should be. If the assassin is successful, the target suffers death effects plus assassination effects. If unsuccessful, the assassin only suffers death effects. Higher payout should mean higher risk. Not to mention that if both die, the assassin is still the one who achieved the win condition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@GrumpyMel, I'm seeing something much less dependent on passive skill checks. I'm imagining a system where the target can learn specific countermeasures that are easier for the target to get good at than for the Assassin to overcome. So, a good Assassin would have to be really good at handling a large variety of countermeasures, while a potential target might only train up a few, and might not even max those few out.
The "encounter" I'm imagining would do absolutely nothing to reveal the location or identify of the Assassin. Simple checks like a /who list in the Settlement would not list the Assassin. When the encounter begins, the target would begin using his skills (perhaps there's a special anti-Assassin hotbar that automatically gets invoked) and is directly engaging the Assassin, who's also using his skills. The presence of nearby allies would only be meaningful if the target had trained skills that utilized them, and perhaps those bodyguard's anti-Assassin skills could be brought into play. The outcome of this encounter would directly determine the effects as well as how cleanly the Assassin escapes.
So, it's not like a special case of sneaking up and backstabbing someone. It's an entirely different type of encounter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If more people can make it to the encounter in time, they should be able to contribute.
The Encounter isn't occurring in real time. I'm imagining skills that represent countermeasures that the target always takes. It's difficult to describe in forum posts, but a simple example would be an Assassin using a "Poisoned Food" skill that the target counters with "Food Taster". The Food Taster isn't walking up and quickly tasting food at that point in real time; instead, the encounter is measuring how well-prepared the target is. It is essentially all happening in the split-second when the Assassin strikes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't need any sort of mini-game...or instanced combat. You just need oppossed skill checks....and a set of conditions that heavly modify those checks or allow them to occur in the first place. It's ok for the actual "kill" to be one-shot because all the game-play takes place BEFORE it....just like whittling someone down to 1 hit point.
It's all about the assassin creating the conditions and the target avoiding the conditions where a successfull attempt is likely....
Like getting someone isolated, in a location you control, distracted and not paying attention to thier surroundings. Forgetting to look around, forgetting to worry about whats behind them, not moving around....maybe busy with some task....not thinking about moving.
Maybe you try to pay someone off to help you get them into a setting like that.
For the target, it's about being aware of the things that make you unsafe...and the things you can do to avoid them....and figuring out who you can trust....
"I know it was you, Fredo..."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then what are the consequences to the assassin if he fails? How close does he have to be to the target to begin this encounter?
I would want the Assassin to have to succeed at a number of stages prior to ever getting the opportunity to engage the target in the encounter system I've described. He might be discovered or be forced to retreat at any of those points.
I would want the Assassin to have to expend significant resources to attempt the Assassination, so that the payoff for completing the Contract would be necessary to recoup those losses. Repeatedly failing an attempt should be very costly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@GrumpyMel, I largely agree with you, but really don't want to see a situation where having effective anti-Assassin counter-measures requires constant vigilance from the player. Let the player develop the appropriate skills that model that vigilance, and use them in an encounter.
At the same time, I'm fine with a meta-game that allows a really good Assassin to capitalize on the knowledge that his target just went AFK...
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Goblin Squad Member
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And all that still leaves the player unable to react to the attempt until it has failed. That's like saying "Putting on armor and sticking around with some friends" is all you need for combat to be fair, with no ability to fight back until the server has decided the opponent can't kill you.
That still boils down to "I'm sitting here doing my thing. Oh, now I'm dead. What the heck just happened?" Which is almost never fun.
You are being PROACTIVE about your own security by engaging in SAFE and avoiding UNSAFE behaviors. It's the same sort of thing that decides whether the merchant wagon gets robbed or makes it through safely....or frankly whether you are a successfull merchant or a bad one. All the game-play happens up front in the preperations you make.
You don't need any kind of "ding.....our encounter has now begun....please go to your respective corners". It's a SPY vs SPY game...the game-play is you taking counter-measures to make sure you CAN be successfull in spotting the SPY when he makes his attempt.
So yes...that's the whole point...you are NOT being REACTIVE, you are being PROACTIVE in your game-play....just like you are when you are playing a successfull merchant.
The notification of contract...is what can serve as your "GAME ON", if you like. Are you still going to be wondering "what the heck just happened?" If you are told "Mr. Smith there will be an attempt on your life within the next 24 hours." ...and 3 hours later you walk into a dark deserted ally by yourself because you got a note saying that a "Friend" wanted to meet you there, and you forgot to bother to look around while you were there?
If I did that in any sort of PnP Campaign I ever played in...I can assure you I wouldn't be thinking how unfair it was I just got one-shotted....I'd be thinking...how could I possibly have fallen for something like that?
How would something like this work if the target has bodyguards?My impulsive answer is that the assassin should find his little trap has backfired, and he now faces any bodyguards that were with the target at the time, whereupon his primary mission changes to escape.
One of those Ooopsy moments we all cherish so.
Personally, were I an Assassin who had been observing a target for days, I would surely know about the guards and would prepare for them. How would I do that? Well I would just poison them with some type of debilitating poison that incapacitates the guards. Once the poison began to work, I would initiate my attack on the target.
Hopefully poison, or even some device would be available to help the assassin in this respect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are being PROACTIVE about your own security by engaging in SAFE and avoiding UNSAFE behaviors. It's the same sort of thing that decides whether the merchant wagon gets robbed or makes it through safely....or frankly whether you are a successfull merchant or a bad one. All the game-play happens up front in the preperations you make.
That sounds fine, but there has to be something that qualifies as "safe behaviour" with which to protect oneself which doesn't boil down to simply not playing the game (literally or practically).
I'm assuming assassination contracts should have a similar expiration time to bounty contracts? IE, once you take the contract, you have 24 hours to complete it or it lapses and has to be issued again? Hiding out waiting to randomly fall over dead isn't fun.
I don't think an assassination contract should expire in 24 hours. If I'm an assassin and accept a contract to take put someone half way across the map, I would want time to get there, study everything from entrances/exits to the settlement to the targets habits and normal day to day activities. 24 hours just isn't enough time to plan out an assassination that has a chance to succeed. Otherwise I may as well run right up and try to melee the target in front of everyone.
I'm ok with the restrictions and such, but you've got to give the assassin the opportunity to plan out their attack. Likely most wont take much time, but if I were to be an assassin, I would. I'm glad I wasn't planning on playing one actually, the way it's going, it looks like it wouldn't be much fun, hopefully it pays excellently!
Edit: what might help is to hear how the Devs had assassinations, and assassins laid out. It might give some insight into what's possible and what direction they were aiming..?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?
That sounds exactly like the kind of benefit allies of NPC factions should have as an exclusive ability.
So long as not e every assassin NPC group has a strong agenda that any assassin might object to, it wouldn't bother me, but I don't intend to have an assassin main.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The fundamental problem with assassination, or pickpocketing, or similar skills is that the victim doesn't find out he's playing until the contest is over.Ignoring the particular implementation details of it for now, would it alter your perspective if the victim were first engaged in some kind of contest where player decisions and character skill were important?
Or even if the target was told when the contract was accepted.
EDIT: I'm not sure how to handle cases of the target remaining logged out. If the benefit of having a victim assassinated was similar to the benefit of them logging out for the duration, the issue solves itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?
I was under the impression that you would have to be of evil alignment to even train Assassin skills. This in itself is a limiting factor.
But, to be honest, I don't think even these limitations will handle the worries of some when it comes to PVP. This holds particularly true for stealth intitiated or non consensual Open World PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen,
Don't you think, given time, everyone will eventually have quite a few powerful abilities that we normally associate with certain classes?
I would expect that everyone will have a self healing ability for example. I'd expect the same to be true for stealth, back stabbing, fire ball, invisibility, etc etc
I agree, eventually everyone will have some powerful abilities, but what is really over the top and what isnt. Being able to pull a target into an instance for 1v1... thats over the top. Having a massive bonus and your target getting a penalty just for having an assassination contract, thats over the top too.
I know a "fighter" will be pretty powerful. But there are limits to that power, that everyone else can have, no matter the alignment.
I dont know, I guess you can over balance a game either.
The PVP itself does not bother me one bit, I plan to PVP extremely often.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was under the impression that you would have to be of evil alignment to even train Assassin skills. This in itself is a limiting factor.
That is actually a really good point Bluddwolf. To compare the assassin with a class just as powerful, the Paladin - their only requirement to train skills is to be Lawful Good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was under the impression that you would have to be of evil alignment to even train Assassin skills. This in itself is a limiting factor.That is actually a really good point Bluddwolf. To compare the assassin with a class just as powerful, the Paladin - their only requirement to train skills is to be Lawful Good.
I would also safely assume that if you don't maintain your eveil alignment, you will lose access to your Assassination skills, much in the same way as the Paladin does for not maintaining Lawful Good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you shouldn't be able to build a high DPS character. What people are objecting to is the one-shot, or "dead before you know it" high DPS. The devs have stated an intent to avoid spike damage. It's been suggested that the way to reconcile that with the traditional "debilitating first wound" is to incorporate a system of debuffs and/or buffs. Yes, it means you don't get to kill them without them ever knowing you're there, but it preserves the meaningful alpha strike as a game changer. Maybe the assassin's strike applies two critical hit debuffs. Maybe it reduces their stamina by 25-50%. Maybe it's got a poison on it that causes them to use a tier lower on their attack roll from their blurred vision. There are a lot of ways to still perserve the brutal first strike that don't involve a massive damaage spike.
I know there has been a lot of posts since this (the tyranny of me being on the wrong end of the world means I can't respond quickly sometimes), but I just want to say I absolutely agree with you. The last thing I want to see is a one shot killer. Even a multi-shot killer like the thief in Guildwars 2, where if you don't reacting in ~2 seconds, you're dead is a horrendous balancing issue.
I do like the debuff idea with an assassin strike though. Coupled with sneak attack, there is still going to be a chunk of damage (though not overboard) and some serious debilitating effect on the victim. Just hope the victim isn't a Pally that cleansing everything and whoops on you with their smite evil ability :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?
Does this preclude the assassin from being part of other player based factions?
It does sound like it would force the assassin to remain aloof from other factions and thus make the contracted killing a more viable mechanic (as opposed to just getting a buddy to fulfill it).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?Does this preclude the assassin from being part of other player based factions?
It does sound like it would force the assassin to remain aloof from other factions and thus make the contracted killing a more viable mechanic (as opposed to just getting a buddy to fulfill it).
Not under my current understanding of the NPC alliances. You can only be party to one of them, but it doesn't interfere with your ability to join PC settlements and charter companies
I would also safely assume that if you don't maintain your eveil alignment, you will lose access to your Assassination skills, much in the same way as the Paladin does for not maintaining Lawful Good.I was under the impression that you would have to be of evil alignment to even train Assassin skills. This in itself is a limiting factor.That is actually a really good point Bluddwolf. To compare the assassin with a class just as powerful, the Paladin - their only requirement to train skills is to be Lawful Good.
I'm against any system that forces one to "maintain" an evil alignment.
"Whoops, you helped that old lady across the street. You no longer know how to cut a guy's throat."|
Goblin Squad Member
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I'm against any system that forces one to "maintain" an evil alignment.
"Whoops, you helped that old lady across the street. You no longer know how to cut a guy's throat."
This would be inconsistent with having certain abilities tied to alignment then. If I have to be a certain alignment to train a skill, it stands to reason I have to be that alignment to use it.
So you can help that old lady across the street, and deliver her into the waiting arms of a horde of zombies hungry for her brain.
Seriously though, it is exactly like the Paladin. You should lose the use of the skill if you don't maintain the prerequisite alignment that you needed to train it.
This does really open up a can of worms for an MMO being designed for players to play for years. We might end up having quite a number of skill that are dormant because we shifted in alignment.
I don't mean to derail my own thread, but this is a different discussion deserving its own.
Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?
It would depend entirely on how much this limits people from having access to other things and how difficult it is to achieve an alliance with these groups. Maybe also what the repercussions are of joining such a group.
I am really not a big fan of anyone in a game being able to one shot(or even having an unstoppable combo) anybody. Anyone who did high level PvP in WoW knows just how UNFUN going up against a rogue is... unless you're the rogue. Between their stealth, crowd control and crazy burst it was nearly impossible for most classes to 1v1 a skilled rogue who got the drop on you. That's what most people are concerned about. Unfortunately, it's also what most of the people who want assassins to be stronger WANT, or at least that's what I'm gathering. Some people have advocated minigames, some of which sound ok, honestly.
Anyhow, if the high end assassin tricks are super awesome then gaining access to them should be super hard. The skill prerequisites should be obnoxious, and the alignment/reputation/faction requirements should be just as difficult to obtain AND maintain. Basically, if you want to be a crazy awesome assassin then it should require you to dedicate your character to doing that.
The other side of the coin would be ridiculous super ninja powers. Also, perhaps put a limit(maybe based on the server population?) where only a certain number of players could gain access to the very coolest stuff. The original AD&D Assassin class required you to kill an assassin ranked on the next higher tier before you could level up and gain the next level of awesomeness. Maybe a similar system in PFO?
Basically, I don't think most people will mind terribly if .01%(or less) of the server's population can be assassins of the highest level. At least I won't. If 20% of the population can kill you anytime, anywhere, with no warning and little chance to do anything about it... well, I don't think a lot of people will want to play a game like that. Heck, even 5% would probably be way too many.
This being said, it should be just as difficult to be/stay a paladin, an antipaladin or any other class that requires a particular alignment. Assassins are just a bigger concern, because of the ramifications of being able to one shot/unstoppable combo an opponent to death.