They also get Uncanny Dodge and trap sense as a little extra something...
Ah, of course. I mixed up the abilities name... -.-'.
As a very quick band-aid, what if fighter bonus feats ignored prerequisites, like the ranger combat style ones? That wouldn't fix the fighter by a long shot, but would sure take the sting out of those long feat chains.
I would not want to be the guy who has to go through all of the combat feats and decide which ones you can select at which levels. It would take forever and a day! *chuckles* Still, it would be a nice patch to the Fighter.
The Talented fighter is also pretty cool. And quite flexible.
Also what I like to do is give the fighter only simple armor proficiency and then give them 4 bonus feats.
As a very quick band-aid, what if fighter bonus feats ignored prerequisites, like the ranger combat style ones? That wouldn't fix the fighter by a long shot, but would sure take the sting out of those long feat chains.
If you could set levels at which they could take them (similar to rogue talents or rage powers) then it would be okay. Some feats come too late but they definitely shouldn't be available at 1st level (a great example in core would be Greater Vital Strike :P).
Well, my complain is not about power, it is about fun. takin the same 5 rage powers oven and over again is boring.
It would be bad if fighter have 5 feat that are just plain superior to the other to the poin of being must have, that would be boring too. I mean, even taking power attack always is boring but at least is just just one feat.
If the Devs tink the beast totem+superstition is balanced as they see the game then it would be great if the print more rage power at the same power level. (just to have more variety)
Well the fighter has to take weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization just to keep up with the other full BAB classes. That is 4 feats. And As pointed out by others Iron will is pretty mandatory.
The Barbarian have some powers that is clearly better than others , but that doesn’t make the other powers bad or less fun. The fact is that even if there are powers that are less uber there are so many powers that are just plain fun. And having the ability to pick great powers isn’t bad, is it? I mean would the players be more happy if the devs would remove “the 5 rage powers” you refer to?
We had a Elemental Kin barbarian in our last Campaign (so no, you don't have to play a Invulnerable Rager). He didn’t have any of the big 5, Powers but he did have: Elemental Rage (Lesser), Elemental Rage , Knockdown, Strength Surge.
His Feats: PA, Cleave, Improved crit, Iron Will, Combat reflexes and Raging Vitality. (Cleave can actuallt be useful even at higher level. Especially if you have to move more than 5 feat and only get one attack)
He was awesome and could trip just about anything and elemental rage helped a lot. 1d6 (and 2d6 1 round) elemental damage of your choice is on average 3,5 damage on every single hit (or average +7 damage on every single the first full attack). That is almost equivalent to weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization. Sure Elemental rage powers are useless when you face creatures with immunities or resistance, but they are great when you don’t and even greater when they grant raider effects or/and when you face creatures with vulnerability.
Also, rage powers are for barbs only, so they got an air of mysticism and exclusiveness that feats lack.
Point is the rage powers are a smorgasbord that offers everything, not just numerical bonuses.
As for feat chains, I had bard (Arcane duelist) with the step up feat chain. So other classes can pick feat chains and have more candy.
I't would be cool to see a Barbarian with Knockdown, Strength Surge and trip feat chain. With Roused Anger he can use Strength Surge twice per encounter. An enlarged barbarian could probably trip anything that can be tripped.
I have some worries when it comes to suggestions to improve the fighter. Is there a hidden agenda that is all about making sure that the fighter can dump int, wis, char and have just as much dex as needed.
Some of the things I’ve seen so far:
Scaling feats: Didn’t we just say that more feats don’t solve the problem if the fighter still doesn’t get access to some really cool fighter only feats? Is it all about maxing out damage and defense even more or do you actually want to build a fighter with a little flavor? No, you don’t want flavor or versatility, you want superman, don’t you?
Ignore prereqs and acrobatics as a class skill is that all about putting everything into str and just leaving dex on 10 or 12?
Perception, Sense motive and heal as class skill and good will saves and mechanics that let fighter rerole will saves, is that all about being able to dump wisdom? Also, there is a feat that lets you pick two more class skills bases on wis, int or char. Scaling feats would mean that you could pick such feats , so what is the problem?
And why should fighter get Acrobatics as a class skill when even the ranger doesn’t get it? ;Make far more sense the ranger gets it.
Why should fighter get more skills when Cavalier/Samurai only get four and they NEED to invest in handle animal and ride which leaves them with 2 skills per level.
And isn’t it obvious that most skills are pretty bad once you start reaching higher levels. Perception and UMD are always nice so are some knowledge skills, but the rogue pretty much proves that skills pretty much suck at higher levels and some even at lower. So is this really all about the fighter being able to have 7 int and still being able to max out perception and UMD (and possibly sense motive or acrobatics). More skill and Ignore prereqs. Let’s be honest. Isn’t that all about dumping int? Seriously, you don’t want to role play and take bluff or Disguise as skills and boost int to 12 and get 5 skills per level.
And why should fighters get perception as a class skill? I wouldn’t mind it, but why? Cavalier/Samurai doesn’t get it and thematically it makes far more sense that they get it.
And why should fighters get sense motive as a class skill? I do think it kind of make sense, but I wonder why? Is it only so that others can’t feint them in battle?
Why is crappy will saves such a big problem if you are a fighter, but not a problem if you are a ranger or Cavalier and it is apparently not a problem if you are a barbarian that is hit with a spell before she is in rage. In fact the rogue is actually the class with the worst god save in the game and she is the one that is supposed to deal with deadly traps.
Ability to fly, see invisibility and wipe out armies? Are you kidding?
And if the fighter get all this candy, where would that leave the monk, Cavalier/Samurai or even to the ranger?
…….
BTW, I want a better, more versatile, dynamic, and fun fighter regardless of what you just read above.
• I want some good fighter ONLY feats.
• I want some non-hitting-people problem-solving schticks.
• I want them to be more self-sufficient.
• I want them to have something exclusive, something sexy and something cool that only fighters get.
• I want less feat taxes. As pointed out by Lemmy "Feats are all Fighters have". So why tax them?
• I have to pay a feat tax I want that feat chain to let the fighter do something amazing, not just improving what they already can do.
To be kinda fair, not very many Rage Powers are better than Feats.
Just enough to tide you over through all 20 levels and have a couple-three leftover you might have wanted.
This is My main problem with barbarians. I can build many fighter and the only common feat is power attack (and/or improved critical) and those build would be very diferent and far from subotpimal for the class.
A barbarian without Superstition + Beast totem is just doing it wrong, really wrong...
but the barbarian have other cool rage powers? yes, you could ignore those two rage power chains and you could build an interesting (even strong) character but he/she would be far inferior to the main barbarian build.
To be fair, even if you consider thosechains to be absolutely must-have Rage Powers, they are just 5 Rage Powers (Beast Totem chain + Superstition + Spell Sunder are the only imperative ones, the other are just gravy...) That's just half the amount of Rage Powers you get... Especially when you consider the feat Extra Rage Power. So even if pursue those two Rage Power chains, you still have a lot of them to use. And unlike feats, most Rage Powers scale with level [n]and[/n] do something cool and/or unique.
If Fighters had 5 feat that were incredibly awesome, scaled with level and allowed them to do cool stuff such as move and full attack or break magic, then they could use their other feats to do cool stuff, it wouldn't be so much of a problem...
Unfortunately, Fighters too often have to invest again and again in the same feat just to keep it relevant.
e.g.: TWF, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus, Improved [Combat Maneuver], etc...Well, my complain is not about power, it is about fun. takin the same 5 rage powers oven and over again is boring.
It would be bad if fighter have 5 feat that are just plain superior to the other to the poin of being must have, that would be boring too. I mean, even taking power attack always is boring but...
most fighters get WF,GWF, both specializations and power attack. Those are 5 feats too. But tget are so bland that nobody notices them, they arent a build
and iron will.
and iron will.
True. The difference with barbs, is that rage powers DO cool things. And so, getting 5 powers is a build. It makes your barb different, and when everybody takes those feats, they look like clones.
FIghters also get the same 5 feats. But they are bland and boring, and nobidy notices those. These are powers that "run in tge background", like those windows processes tgat nobody is aware of
I have some worries when it comes to suggestions to improve the fighter. Is there a hidden agenda that is all about making sure that the fighter can dump int, wis, char and have just as much dex as needed.
Some of the things I’ve seen so far:
Scaling feats
Ignore prereqs.
All good saves or at least good will saves and goo fort saves.
Some power similar to Barbarianss Clear mind or Samurai’s Resolve.
Better set of class skills: Including adding at least: Perception, Sense motive and Acrobatics. possibly even heal.
More skills per level: at least 4 skills per level
More fighter only feats.
Ability to bonus swap feat more often – even once or more per day.
Cooler feats:
Ability to fly
Ability to see invisibility
Ability to walk on water
Ability to self heal
Ability to move and full attack.
Ability to move across the battle field and full attack any part during the move. Scaling feats: Didn’t we just say that more feats don’t solve the problem if the fighter still doesn’t get access to some really cool fighter only feats? Is it all about maxing out damage and defense even more or do you actually want to build a fighter with a little flavor? No, you don’t want flavor or versatility, you want superman, don’t you?
Ignore prereqs and acrobatics as a class skill is that all about putting everything into str and just leaving dex on 10 or 12?
Perception, Sense motive and heal as class skill and good will saves and mechanics that let fighter rerole will saves, is that all about being able to dump wisdom? Also, there is a feat that lets you pick two more class skills bases on wis, int or char. Scaling feats would mean that you could pick such feats , so what is the problem?
And why should fighter get Acrobatics as a class skill when even the ranger doesn’t get it? ;Make far more sense the ranger gets it.
Why should fighter get more skills when Cavalier/Samurai only get four and they NEED to invest in handle animal and ride which...
Pretty much have to agree with Zark on most of this stuff.
(The only thing I'd say differently is "scaling feats" are not a 'Broken Fighter' fix, they're a 'Broken Feats' fix. Feats and spells need a major overhaul - unfortunately they'll never get one, at least not officially.)But I wanted to especially emphasize two things: Why should a Fighter get a good Will save and Perception as a class skill?
For people who are making this argument, really stop and think about it: Are you arguing this because it fits the Fighter class, or is it really just because Will is the best save and it's rough not to have a high one, and Perception is the best skill and technically everyone wants to have it at high values?
The fighter class spends it's time learning different fighting techniques, learning to be more comfortable in their armor, learning a wider variety of weaponry, and learning how to ignore and fight through the things that would scare others.
What it doesn't spend a lot of time doing is practicing shrugging off mental effects or scouting for minor details.
Now, I think every class needs at least 2 more skills per level, and I do think the Fighter skill list could/should be expanded. But Perception, honestly, doesn't fit.
And for saves, there's a much better argument for having Reflexes come up to 'good' before Will ever would.
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I'll give fighters better ref instead of better will. A fighter should dodge breath weapons better than a wizard, but should be easier to enchant or deceive with ilusions
They should be inmune to fear, or extremely resistant to it. Much more than a bard or a sorcerer. Bravery is not enough
Monks spend long hours honing not only their bodies, but their minds as well. We're talking hours of prayer and meditation.
Soldiers (Fighters) simply cannot be compared to Monks if you wanna talk about Will scores.
As for Perception, not every soldier is as astute as the next. In fact, I believe a popular trope is the guard sleeping at his post, no?
Besides, it's a skill that can be checked untrained, and anyone can put ranks into it. But the job description is simply not one that focuses overly much on non-combat attention to detail - it's too busy learning how to fight.
(For what it's worth, I don't think there's a very good reason Alchemists, Gunslingers, or Inquisitors should have it either. If it were up to me, they'd lose it from their lists.)
Monks spend long hours honing not only their bodies, but their minds as well. We're talking hours of prayer and meditation.
Soldiers (Fighters) simply cannot be compared to Monks if you wanna talk about Will scores.As for Perception, not every soldier is as astute as the next. In fact, I believe a popular trope is the guard sleeping at his post, no?
see? That's the problen with fighters being called fighters. If tgey were called "incredibly powerful martial hero" or "chuck norris in full plate" people wouldn't insist in making them bland, boring, mundane and pityful because of the comparison with the sleepy guard in the city gates or the infantry mook that die in droves
As for Perception, not every soldier is as astute as the next. In fact, I believe a popular trope is the guard sleeping at his post, no?
I fully agree that not every soldier is as astute as the next.
However, the chump who fulfills the trope of the slacker sleeping at his guard post is typically a Warrior, not an elite Fighter.
And the chump who fills the trope would probably get Perception as a class skill, because it's the most important part of their job (and failed to put any ranks into it, hence why he/she isn't noticing anything).
Fighters aren't typically guards. They're not typically lookouts. They're not typically trap-finders.
Having ranks in the Perception skill and having extra special training in specifically noticing fine details are entirely different things.
see? That's the problen with fighters being called fighters. If tgey were called "incredibly powerful martial hero" or "chuck norris in full plate" people wouldn't insist in making them bland, boring, mundane and pityful because of the comparison with the sleepy guard in the city gates or the infantry mook that die in drovesMonks spend long hours honing not only their bodies, but their minds as well. We're talking hours of prayer and meditation.
Soldiers (Fighters) simply cannot be compared to Monks if you wanna talk about Will scores.As for Perception, not every soldier is as astute as the next. In fact, I believe a popular trope is the guard sleeping at his post, no?
People attach fluff with a class sometimes. I don't see why a fighter can't be undisciplined or have a good reflex or fortitude. Maybe my fighter was trained as a skirmisher or had martial training from a zen master, maybe he was raised in the forest and trained in the calm tranquility like a monk. Maybe he spends an hour every morning while the casters prepare practicing with his sword through routines.
Anyways, he would appreciate a second good save because having just fort as a good save with few ways to bolster it but sacrificing his class features for poor bonuses(feats). It might also bring fighters closer to those old days when they had all good saves, but I'm not particularly familiar with that edition.
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I'd like to not use "that guy who falls asleep on watch" as a poster-child Fighter, tbh.
Fighters aren't typically guards. They're not typically lookouts.
Um, who said? And compared to what other Perception-possessing classes who typically are? Monks? Barbarians?
And the chump who fills the trope would probably get Perception as a class skill, because it's the most important part of their job (and failed to put any ranks into it, hence why he/she isn't noticing anything).
Fighters aren't typically guards. They're not typically lookouts. They're not typically trap-finders.
Having ranks in the Perception skill and having extra special training in specifically noticing fine details are entirely different things.
I would think the standard US marine is harder to ambush than the standard bishop.
However, the problem is still the name. "Fighters" arent specially good finding things. "Uber heores with martial flavor" and "medieval chuck norris", however, are. So was Achilles or Ulyses. The problem is tge name. People compare fighters with sleepy guards. They should have a name that inspire the vision of Beoeulf, King Arthur or Jamie Lannister. Not some grumpy militia guy who get ambushed by goblins.
You can't fix fighters until you dump tgeir names. Look at what a rogue could be when it's called Ninja.
The argument being made here for fighters is so utterly generic that it can be made for literally every class.
At that point, it's exactly what I was talking about: You're arguing because the skill is too good, not because the class type is defined as being good at it.
To answer the question posed to me:
First thought would be Ranger or Rogue.
Second thought would be Druid or Barbarian.
Third thought would be a companion (animal or otherwise) or a spell, such as Alarm.
After that, it's all meta-gaming (ie: "Okay, who has Perception really high and a good Wis bonus? Tim does? Okay, Tim's character is on watch." [aka - Nothing to do with class flavor]).
I would think the standard US marine is harder to ambush than the standard bishop.
Two points about this: Your "standard US marine" is basically a grunt. They get ambushed all the time. (They're not special forces - and Rangers sound a little closer to that role than Fighters do.)
Also, Clerics (ie: standard bishop) doesn't get Perception as a class skill either. Arguing that Fighters are worse at a non-class-skill than Clerics are at the same non-class-skill has nothing to do with the Fighter's strengths/weaknesses. It's off topic.
So what are fighters to you then Neo? Are they grunts that are meant to be slaughtered with no special training?
Edit: They have 2+ skill points so they aren't skilled, they have D10 HD so they aren't extra durable, they have the same proficiencies as every other (full BAB)martial, and they have one of the worst skill list. You would hope they would have class features to cover for this, but they really don't get much. So what are they supposed to be?
Perception is the best skill and technically everyone wants to have it at high values?
In PF, Perception for Adventurers is like Concentration for Casters in 3.x.
You may as well give everyone who doesn't have it a cane and a seeing eye dog.
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So what are fighters to you then Neo? Are they grunts that are meant to be slaughtered with no special training?
Edit: They have 2+ skill points so they aren't skilled, they have D10 HD so they aren't extra durable, they have the same proficiencies as every other (full BAB)martial, and they have one of the worst skill list. You would hope they would have class features to cover for this, but they really don't get much. So what are they supposed to be?
It's quite clear that for a lot of people they are grunts that get ambushed and die in droves and city guards that get splept in the watch.
HEnce why I defend a change of name. Let's call them "martial heroes" or "uberwarriors" or "legendary combatants" or "chuck norris". Anything that allow them to stop being like the poor fat guy that earns some coppers guarding tge city walls
The easy answer to that (since you're already evaluating every feat) is to automatically scale those feats with level. Obviously, it's already been mentioned in thread, but if Greater Vital Strike didn't exist and Vital Strike automatically gave you extra damage at BAB +6, +11, and +16, you'd have less to worry about.
:)
Exactly what I did in my home game.
Frank and K went that route with the Tomes stuff as well.
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Sigh.... Just because you have a certain profession doesnt mean you are good at every aspect of that profession. Also just because a particular skill is useful for your profession doesnt mean they train you in that skill as part of your profession.
The great thing about RPGs is the versatility you have. If you want your fighter to be particularly observant then make the character that way. Give him a high wisdom, put a rank in perception and choose a trait that makes perception a class skill. You are gravely misguided if you think all fighters are observant.
I am a Marine and trust me not every grunt is observant. I have known many and disciplined many Marines who have fallen asleep or been lax in their firewatch duties.
The Pathfinder traits give you the ability to determine some specialties that your character has that another in his class does not. I can use heirloom weapon to give my Wizard the ability to wield a Bastard sword. That is much more realistic than me saying all wizards should be able to use a sword! Traits and feats give you the ability to customize ypur character.
Trust me, my favorite dwarven fighter is not the most observant fellow, nor should he be. His focus is on combat.... and jewelry!
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The problem here is that the fighter is not a grunt. The fighter is a player and players are supposed to be better than the average. The fighter is the hero that astounds with skill and toughness. Its like suggesting that Achilles be the town guard instead of sacking a city almost single handed.
Battle Oracles get Perception as a class skill, you know, because being aware of your surroundings is one of those things that help you on a battlefield.
Fighters don't get perception as a class skill because, you know, being aware of your surroundings isn't important for someone on a battlefield.
The Pathfinder traits give you the ability to determine some specialties that your character has that another in his class does not. I can use heirloom weapon to give my Wizard the ability to wield a Bastard sword. That is much more realistic than me saying all wizards should be able to use a sword! Traits and feats give you the ability to customize ypur character.
There are some things traits shouldn't have to be used for though. For a long time there was no trait to give you perception as a class skill. My favorite traits are the ones that do more than give you class skills, they are the ones that define your character or change the way a skill works or do something special(more than numbers!). Class skills should show a wide variance for what the class should be good at, and a fighter makes a terrible town guard or lookout, or even adventurer. The guy walks right into traps!
edit: I should note that a bastard sword is an exotic weapon, and heirloom weapon doesn't allow you to take those.
The Pathfinder traits give you the ability to determine some specialties that your character has that another in his class does not. I can use heirloom weapon to give my Wizard the ability to wield a Bastard sword. That is much more realistic than me saying all wizards should be able to use a sword! Traits and feats give you the ability to customize ypur character.There are some things traits shouldn't have to be used for though. For a long time there was no trait to give you perception as a class skill. My favorite traits are the ones that do more than give you class skills, they are the ones that define your character or change the way a skill works or do something special(more than numbers!). Class skills should show a wide variance for what the class should be good at, and a fighter makes a terrible town guard or lookout, or even adventurer. The guy walks right into traps!
edit: I should note that a bastard sword is an exotic weapon, and heirloom weapon doesn't allow you to take those.
Eyes and Ears of the City (Abadar) was in the APG, and thus has existed as long as traits have.
I've never had a character who worshipped Abadar though. You'd think a trait about being a guard would be available to everyone who is a guard... Its a pretty awful trait for a RAW game. They added more later. Again though, traits don't really defend the fighter, especially for something he arguably should already have.
In order to use a trait to get perception as a class skill in PF "Core" you have to worship one specific deity.
If you expand it outside of core, your character has to be a guide in a specific nation's jungles or a Dwarf or Goblin.
Battle Oracles get Perception as a class skill, you know, because being aware of your surroundings is one of those things that help you on a battlefield.
Fighters don't get perception as a class skill because, you know, being aware of your surroundings isn't important for someone on a battlefield.
The above is what you're saying.
Below is what I'm taking away from it:[Insert any class at all] should get Perception as a class skill, you know, because being aware of your surroundings is one of those things that help you [insert any time/place ever].
Below is what I'm taking away from it:
[Insert any class at all] should get Perception as a class skill, you know, because being aware of your surroundings is one of those things that help you [insert any time/place ever].
That's not what he said at all, that's inferring something else. Its not saying wizards or sorcerers or oracles of lore should get it. It is however saying its great for those martial guys who represent those fighters on the battlefield, like oracle of battle or fighter. Or not, depends on which half your reading.
You never told me what you think fighters are supposed to be btw.
Battle Oracles get Perception as a class skill, you know, because being aware of your surroundings is one of those things that help you on a battlefield.
Fighters don't get perception as a class skill because, you know, being aware of your surroundings isn't important for someone on a battlefield.
The above is what you're saying.
Below is what I'm taking away from it:
[Insert any class at all] should get Perception as a class skill, you know, because being aware of your surroundings is one of those things that help you [insert any time/place ever].
Well, I'd hope that what you would take from it is that the reason a battle oracle gets Perception as a class skill (while other Oracles do not) is that it's an important skill for their intended niche of being a skilled warrior/leader on the battlefield.
I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. I wasn't trying to infer that you said something that you didn't.
My point was simply... well, a restating of what I already said several times.
There is an argument to be made for every skill in this game to apply to every class in this game. That, however, shouldn't mean that every class should get every skill as a class skill.
(As for battlefield perception, c'mon. RAW you can't see anything at any significant distance. 1000ft isn't that far for a commander trying to keep track of battlefield movements, but it's gonna add a +100 to your Perception DC - Class skill or not, you won't be making that check. So honestly I have no idea why an Oracle of Battle has the skill.)
So obviously no one deserves perception, especially not the people up front and perceiving. Understood! However, what is the fighter good for then? He isn't keeping watch, so he's obviously not around to guard things.
I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. I wasn't trying to infer that you said something that you didn't.
My point was simply... well, a restating of what I already said several times.There is an argument to be made for every skill in this game to apply to every class in this game. That, however, shouldn't mean that every class should get every skill as a class skill.
I see it the otger way around. That's a reason for every class being able to take every class as class skill.
I like what 5th edition suggests. It splits skills from class. And make it a sepparate package.
A fighter with the Soldier package could have, say, Ride, survival, proffesion soldier and intimidate, fir example. While a fighter with the Knight package could have Know Nobilittly, diplomacy, Ride and Handle animal (same abilities than a cleric with knight package, such a templar). A fighter with the thug package (a scoundrel) would have different skills than a fighter with the Religious package (a zealot or crusader) or with the Healer package (a combat medic). A rogue or wizard could have the same packages, with a very different flavor
So obviously no one deserves perception, especially not the people up front and perceiving. Understood! However, what is the fighter good for then? He isn't keeping watch, so he's obviously not around to guard things.
Clearly Perception needs to not be a skill anymore, and everyone gets to see everything every time forever.
Or, tie it to every character like concentration checks, level plus WIS.
Clearly Perception needs to not be a skill anymore, and everyone gets to see everything every time forever.
Or, tie it to every character like concentration checks, level plus WIS.
Actually that's both a nerf and a buff, depending on who you are. The guy who had the skill points to put into it, made it class skill, and bought magic items would hate losing it(diamond mind from 3.5 is much different in pathfinder), and the guy who didn't have anything put into it would gain a lot(fighter). It would certainly put characters on a more even level. I'm not particularly sure how I would like to see it handled, but a change might be nice since it feels like everyone needs to devote themselves to it.
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To the thing with the one bad save, and the dissent on what a second good save for fighters could be:
Why not make it customizable? Each fighter picks his 2 good saves. Get the fluff you want, match your saves to it.
I also strongly agree that the fighter could do with at least 4 skill points per level. Also add 2 additional class skills that each fighter can choose.
So obviously no one deserves perception, especially not the people up front and perceiving. Understood! However, what is the fighter good for then? He isn't keeping watch, so he's obviously not around to guard things.Clearly Perception needs to not be a skill anymore, and everyone gets to see everything every time forever.
Or, tie it to every character like concentration checks, level plus WIS.
I rather like that idea as well, just because perception is too much of a must-have as it is. That was part of the rationale for getting rid of concentration: just like every caster wants to be able to cast under pressure, every single adventurer wants to have basic situational awareness.
On the subject of saves, I do think it's a shame Pathfinder only has the option of good saves and bad saves. If there was some sort of medium-progression save that Fighters could use for Reflex and Will, that would fit them just about perfectly IMO.
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problem is fighter doesnt have a clear role aside from...well...being good at fighting.
being good at fighting isnt will saves, it isnt perception. its fighting.
I completely disagree. Many skills have good uses in combat. Bluff and Sense Motive for feinting, Perception to avoid ambushes, Acrobatics to move without provoking AoO, Intimidate to demoralize your opponents, Knowledge(Whatever) to identify your enemy's weaknesses, etc.
And saves? They're all about combat! How do you resist the poison in the tip of the enemy archer's arrows? How do you evade you fireballs? How do youa void being paralyzed or mind-controlled? Fighting is not just about swing your sword really hard, it's about surviving whatever your opponent throws at you. This is something devs failed to understand when creating Fighters for 3.X and PF. They always give Fighter bigger numbers and forget to add versatility and suvivability against anything that's slightly different from you standard physical attack.
Personally, I give Fighters good Fort and Reflex (they're physical paragons, after all) and make Bravery scale a bit faster and apply against charm and compulsion effects as well. Fighters become immune to fear by 10th level and then immune to charm and compulsion at 20th.
what you are asking is a more defined role for a fighter...which i think they could use at this point.
Agreed.
Fighters, as they currently are, form a rather stupid group of people. They are warriors who refuse to learn how to use magic but also refuse to learn anything other than hitting things really hard (they have zero class features not devoted to combat and gain the lowest possible amount of skills)If you refuse to use magic AND you refuse to learn mundane skills as well... Sorry, you deserve to suck.