Oddly enough, I've seen the cops here in Finland arrest you the first time you commit a crime.
They don't care if you're male or female. Of course, they'll be less nice to you if you aren't white.
That being said, the experiences of say a young man who is sexually or physically abused by a parent or other adult, saying that it isn't comparable is a bit of a stretch to me. Is it as common? Probably not. But it's still just as heinous.Yeah, that's just as hideous as when it happens to a women. My point wasn't that abuse to women is worse, though, and I'm sorry for the confusion - abuse to either gender, especially at a young age, is worthy of Barbarian style rage.
The point I was attempting to make is that there is still a level of unfairness built into the system. A woman has to commit a crime, once, in self defence to be arrested - a man has to do the same thing, in a drunken rage, repeatedly before he's arrested.
We have nothing comparable to the law literally being against us.
Equally bad, in many cases, social opinion is against women. A woman who cheats is much more likely to be shamed than a man. A women who wants a divorce, especially in religious families, is more likely to be shunned. A woman who sleeps with multiple partners is a slut, worthy of condemnation - a man who does it is a stud, worthy of respect. And I've already talked about victim blaming in rape.
And the same goes for games. If a women expresses her opinion, there's a dozen reasons to shut her down - she's on her rag, she's over sensitive, she doesn't get gaming - but if a man expresses an opinion, there's basically one - he's wrong. er.
The social opinion issue works both ways.
Emotionally sensitive men are immediately mocked as being "gay", and there was one case of a bunch of girls stripping a boy naked and taking pictures of him. No police were involved, but if it had been a bunch of teenage guys taking a slightly younger woman's clothing off, those guys would have gotten the **** beaten out of them before they were thrown into the car in handcuffs. Half the comments on the case were "Lucky guy but didn't like it? Must have been gay" or something equally moronic.
(And finally, this story has a happy ending... which is to say, when the PCs finally did get to take this guy down, they had a great knock-down drag-out boss fight that ended with high-fives over the...
That is often fun for players. Being able to take down somebody who really annoyed you. Be it by stealing items of theirs, insults, etc. That sounds like it was handled well by everybody by being honest and direct. The ideal might of been to discuss it beforehand, but that is something I forget to do myself a lot of the time.
But being able to pause the game when a player looks uncomfortable and asking them directly is the sign of a good GM. I can't tell you how many times I've been a part of a game if people were just honest about stuff it would of really helped. Often times I wish I had been more direct with people.
Douglas. Part of the problem is that discussions are a give and take. When you claim a person has a privilege that they can not see or detect, and therefor can not argue that they do not possess it becomes impossible to have a discussion.
Instead it usually devolves into anger and name calling. It's not "I'm a white guy and my life is hard." so much is "all of our lives are hard" and how can we make them better. Painting one group with a broad brush alienates and angers many of them. What I and others are trying to say is "Yes, we understand, and we agree. But you're not the only victim of the current power structure." Everybody has been a victim of a person in power, or of society's expectations or thoughts of them in one way or another.
The reason why it upsets me is that we should be allies in this, not enemies. But people toss around buzzwords and labels without a care, and then wonder why they get blowback on the issue. There are some that might disagree on the principle of the issue, but needlessly swelling their ranks by being unnecessarily confrontational only makes it worse.
This is entirely moot. This board is not a democracy or a free speech zone; it's Paizo's. Jessica (of Paizo) said unless it deals with sexism in the gaming industry, take it elsewhere. It doesn't matter if your points are accurate, articulate, incisive, or anything else. Off-topic to the thread means take it elsewhere.
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This thread was less painful than I expected it would be. Jessica and others have posted some really good links about privilege, and I really encourage people to read them and dwell on the concept a little.
I just want to underscore the fact that discussing and admitting privilege is not:
a) trying to undermine any of your hard work or experiences;
b) claiming that someone is better than you because they are "worse off" than you;
c) claiming that it's your fault;
d) universally applicable; or
e) meant to make you feel guilt or shame for being who you are.
It's fundamentally just a tool to help you understand where other people are coming from, and why some people struggle with "invisible monsters" in some parts of their life and others do not.
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On the topic of women in gaming, I think that Paizo is doing a great job, and has been increasingly improving as time goes by.* Art is very much the biggest problematic area, and a big part of that is because the artists themselves don't see a problem with what they're doing, and the monthly cycle doesn't allow for fixing things like "boob armor" and pin-up poses, etc.
The biggest thing I note about often being the only woman in a gaming group is that the guys very often talk over me. Women are socialised to allow this to happen, and it pisses me off that I let it go so often, but I'm usually persistent enough to continue afterwards anyway. But I am sure many women are not nearly as good at this. If you notice your women players being talked over too often, I really encourage you to try and help them out a bit.
Luckily I haven't experienced very many problems at the gaming table, largely because I am almost always the GM. The only problematic time I had was when a guy a con event was trying to hit on me by going on and on about how optimized his vampire god-knows-what character was and constantly interrupting the game to talk to me specifically about it. (We were even on opposite sides of the table!) This, of course, is much more about someone being utterly clueless about signs of "I am not interested" and how exactly you go about attracting women...
* The Advanced Race Guide was a step backwards, though. Sorry Paizo, you had way too many animal-races-with-huge-boobs for my taste.
About the game industry, I really really hope this year's E3 is better. :(
Compared to the video gaming industry and comics industry, the traditionally male oriented tabletop RPG industry is ( at least since third edition ) a paragon of equality. So, good luck with that.
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Everytime I saw this thread I didn't have a chance to read through or respond, and I've only been able to skim through now (and really I should be doing my morning exercise routine)... but to frustratingly backtrack and respond to the OP...
(And thanks for posting that article by the way!)
So, how do we make our tables friendly for female gamers, as well as everyone else?
To reframe the "don't be a jerk" advice. If you don't know the woman well and don't know how she'd react, think about the remark you're about to make. Imagine another guy making the same remark to your mother or sister. Do you picture yourself yelling at if not punching the guy? Then don't say it.
To cover some stuff not mentioned:
1) The ironic one: do not presume to speak for a woman or all women, especially if you're not a woman yourself. (But no one can really speak for all women, it's not like we have meetings and vote for a spokesperson.) But what I'm getting at is, myself, personally, I find it really irritating when people start to speak for me when I haven't asked for assistance, and I've noticed people do that more to me and other women than for men.
2) This is a specifically gamer thing that I've noticed. It is anecdotal, totally admittedly anecdotal up front, but I've seen it happen often, and I feel it's worth mentioning. Just take it with the grain of salt that it's anecdotal:
There is a veteran male (or several) at the table and a newb female (or someone the veteran male assumes is newb). The newb female either
a) is hesitating about what she should do, because she can't decide between certain options (but has either not asked for help or only asked the GM for guidance)
b) decisively states an action, normally one that is fine, but may not be seen by the vets as optimal or at least not helping their characters the most.
The vet gamer(s) BOMBARDS the the female player with "advice" that is unasked for, loudly and insistently, and essentially tries to bully her into an action he thinks she should take, rather than the one she is inclined to. If multiple male gamers tend toward this behavior, they practically verbally dogpile on her to give her (sometimes conflicting advice), and will not let up on her until either she or the GM has to yell (and I do mean yell) at them to stop, unless she only takes the action THEY prescribe for her. If they do get called to task, they whimper and whine, "I was only trying to help" (often followed with more justifications for why she should take the action they want her to take).
I've seen three different outcomes here:
1) The girl snaps, yells, asserts herself, and the "advice givers" back off. This is the least frequent response.
2) The girl snaps, yells, the guys get defensive, and she leaves--and especially if she is a new gamer, she never comes back to gaming.
3) The girl gets cowed, gives in, and on her turn, just looks up and asks, "What do you think I should do?" and doesn't dare come up with ideas on her own. This sadly is the most frequent result. Sometimes I hear people complain about specifically female players who "don't know the rules" or "always just ask others what to do" and I have to wonder if at least sometimes this is the reason why.
I have seen this happen. A lot. It's happened to me (as a veteran gamer myself, with the guys in question being new to me and then assuming I am new because I am a girl). It's happened to my friends. I've seen a husband do it to his wife, who was in fact an equally experienced gamer as he, just she was new to the specific system (that same guy also did it to me when he also knew I was experienced, and I joyfully proved his "advice" wrong on several occasions. His favorite advice was to constantly harangue that the female players' characters to stand in the back while the male characters fought, even though my and his wife's character were both equipped to do well at melee). I cannot ever recall a situation where the veteran in question was female and the newb male. I have seen even a male and female in the same group, both new, but only the newb female gets bombarded with "advice" while the male is left alone or only is offered advice.
I want to note that the specific behavior is a loud-voice, domineering, talking-without-listening-or-letting-anyone-else-speak kind of "advice" giving. All gamers can get "enthusiastic" about offering advice, but this particular action goes over into bullying, especially because when it happens, the gamer doing it doesn't give up until the girl gives in and does as he says.
I will absolutely warrant it is easy as a veteran gamer, a female one at that, to offer advice nonstop to new players, sometimes unsolicited. I'm in a gaming group where I am easily the most experienced with Pathfinder and I find myself saying stuff like, "Are you sure you don't want to prepare that spell instead?" And I have to stop myself, to let the people play like they want to. If I'm asked advice on rules, that's different. But I try to ask questions, and I especially try to shut up in combat. If I see a really obvious mistake being made, I will point out only, "You know if you go that way, you'll provoke an AOO, right?" and let them figure the rest out. I don't berate my fellow players for taking an action differently than I would (at least I hope I don't, and I'd hope I'd get called on it if I did). I don't stay on them constantly and yell until they do an action I want them to. I've not seen other female players stand over a new player, male or female, and yell until they take an action they think the other player should take. And I've played with a lot of female players--many of the groups I've played in had a lot of women in them. I have seen male players do this, and often. (Though the ones I have I tend not to play with anymore.)
So I don't know what it is, and I don't know why I've only seen guys do this. I know I'm taking a risk by mentioning it, because it is specifically pegging out guys doing a frustrating behavior, and maybe it isn't only guys that do it, in fairness. It is my personal experience.
But to anyone inclined toward this behavior: stop "helping." You're not. It is in fact the number one behavior I've seen in my groups that drives a would-be female gamer away from the hobby.
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Much of my gaming experience comes from a local gaming club that is at least 50% female and most of the worst sexual comments and character actions come from females. Including insulting notions of what men think like. I have almost no notion of anti-female gamer behavour because to me female gamers are just gamers.
Probably to avoid anyone going "See, I told you all men are privileged!" here, which I can see happening.
The alternative version of that statement would be "See, I told you all men are scum!!" which is sort of related.
I think abused boys have it WORSE, we have not only the same pain but cannot share it or dare show it. A woman who has been hurt will be handled with gentleness and infinite understanding. We get treated like we failed as men for letting it happen.
I don't think I can follow you there. I'd say it's often about the same lack of understanding and compassion about things that happen to them. In individual circumstances it might tilt one way or the other, but in reality it is probably an equal fumbling by all involved.
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Steve, questioning things is great! You should question everything everyone says. But I really hope that we can give you the evidence you need to convince yourself that privilege is a real thing and has real impacts on life.
I think a post above talked about individual v.s. sociological level of privilege, and that's key to remember, Steve.
You as an individual may have had a horrible life; if so, I am truly sorry for this and hope that things have (or will) get better for you.
Men on the whole have better experiences in life than women; this is evidenced by various factors that have been mentioned ad nauseum in this thread so I won't return to them again. This is not to say that individual men don't have worse experiences than most, or that in specific circumstances a man may be disadvantaged in comparison to a woman (e.g., showing emotion). But when we talk about privilege we're talking about a much wider scale than that.
This is what I mean by "privilege is not universally applicable". You have a number of different privileges as an individual and they all intertwine with each other in different circumstances.
For example, I'm a white, able-bodied, middle-class, queer, cis gendered woman. In some cases I am disadvantaged; for example, getting pre-judged in my degree program as a computer scientist for being a woman, or being stared at when I walk down the street holding hands with my girlfriend. (This is a pretty good depiction of what it's like.) Or just not being able to marry her.
However, in other cases I'm privileged. For example, I haven't had to deal with the many problems that come with being poor, I don't experience any kind of gender dysphoria, and I have the benefit of seeing role models of my ethnicity in pretty much every single book, show, and movie I have ever seen.
You might be male--which gives you a lot of privileges--but you also might have other disadvantages that makes your life harder in certain aspects than someone who does not have that disadvantage. I can't speak for yourself, but the examples I've illuminated about me might give you a clue to what I'm talking about here.
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And how does your story relate to the topic? I mean, I can surely find some account of a woman terrorizing her husband in Saudi Arabia, but does that mean that Saudi women aren't discriminated or that men have it worse there?Missed you Mr. Bag.
No. Obviously not. But then again it's also a fundamentalist religious monarchy. It's not real awesome for anybody who isn't a member of the privileged class. Which surprisingly, does not include every man in the country.
Dissidents tend to get disappeared by security forces, freedoms are severely curtailed, etc.
So, why are reports from the US government, UN and human rights NGOs calling out discrimination against women there? In SA, a woman can't drive a car. It's not because of the government being non-democratic, it's because of a long cultural tradition of treating women as inferior beings.
In fact, there are non-democratic countries that respect women's rights far better than some democratic states do.
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You as an individual may have had a horrible life; if so, I am truly sorry for this and hope that things have (or will) get better for you.
Nah, it isn't that awful at all. Plenty of people have it worse. Got an honest job and enough to eat and a place to sleep and some books and a computer with an internet connection. Good friends, the weekly game. Life is pretty good, all told. Some of my friends ain't so lucky.
Men on the whole have better experiences in life than women; this is evidenced by various factors that have been mentioned ad nauseum in this thread so I won't return to them again. This is not to say that individual men don't have worse experiences than most, or that in specific circumstances a man may be disadvantaged in comparison to a woman (e.g., showing emotion). But when we talk about privilege we're talking about a much wider scale than that.
That..seems extremely debatable. I can't really follow you there. The idea that men on the whole have better experiences in life than women. It's far too specific to a person and what they want out of life. Men are also less likely to bring up issues (see how few men go to the doctor when they really should.) There is a pride in 'grinning and bearing it' and 'paying your dues'. And so on. Without some sort of...objective way of measuring a large pool of people about happiness and contentment and getting them to actually be honest about it?
This is another leap that I can't follow at the moment.
This is what I mean by "privilege is not universally applicable". You have a number of different privileges as an individual and they all intertwine with each other in different circumstances.
For example, I'm a white, able-bodied, middle-class, queer, cis gendered woman. In some cases I am disadvantaged; for example, getting pre-judged in my degree program as a computer scientist for being a woman, or being stared at when I walk down the street holding hands with my girlfriend. (This is a pretty good depiction of what it's like.) Or just not being able to marry her..
See, that sucks. Anybody who does that is downright ignorant for thinking you can't be a good computer programmer just because of your sex. But then again people prejudge me for my manner of dress and my accent, thinking I'm not intelligent because of the drawl. I do get a lot of stares because I'm a hick who rides a bicycle in a car town, but it's probably not the same. It's wrong that you are not able to marry her in the state in which you reside, in my personal opinion. Two consenting adults should be able to make whatever contract between one another they so choose (which is what marriage really is.)
I've had people honk their horns, throw stuff at me, etc. It's not staring, but it kinda sucks to be riding on a sidewalk and have some SUV blast their horn right next to you as they speed by. Some people are just plain ignorant and will act like fools to any and everybody, is how I see it.
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That..seems extremely debatable. I can't really follow you there. The idea that men on the whole have better experiences in life than women. It's far too specific to a person and what they want out of life. Men are also less likely to bring up issues (see how few men go to the doctor when they really should.) There is a pride in 'grinning and bearing it' and 'paying your dues'. And so on. Without some sort of...objective way of measuring a large pool of people about happiness and contentment and getting them to actually be honest about it?
This is another leap that I can't follow at the moment.
I don't really want to go into this too deeply (because fundamentally this isn't what the thread is about), but many things have been mentioned already, including:
- women being treated like objects, especially sex objects (cat-calling, "compliments" out of nowhere);
- much higher likelihood of being raped (and being blamed for it);
- our bodies being treated like public property (abortion laws);
- the wage gap, which I believe still shows that women earn something like 75% of what men do in the same industry on average;
- the lack of women in high prestige positions such as CEOs and politicians (and I do not buy the line that women just don't want to do these kinds of jobs);
- socialisation that teaches us to be demure, not speak up over men, be submissive, etc.
There's plenty more. They're just a few that come off the top of my head.
These things affect pretty much ALL women. I find it difficult to imagine a woman that is happy with these things being real, identifiable facts. (Obviously, some people may differ on certain aspects, individualism, yada yada.)
This is not to say men don't have problems. But a lot of the root of men's problems are entirely because there is a stigma around being female. For example, the "grin and bear it" thing is the MANLY thing to do... because only women are allowed to express emotions, pain, and suffering. Thus, showing that is bad because being a woman is bad.
It's wrong that you are not able to marry her in the state in which you reside, in my personal opinion. Two consenting adults should be able to make whatever contract between one another they so choose (which is what marriage really is.)
I'm Australian, actually. ;) North American privilege!!11! :P (a joke, if that wasn't clear.)
- women being treated like objects, especially sex objects (cat-calling, "compliments" out of nowhere);
- much higher likelihood of being raped (and being blamed for it);
- our bodies being treated like public property (abortion laws);
- the wage gap, which I believe still shows that women earn something like 75% of what men do in the same industry on average;
- the lack of women in high prestige positions such as CEOs and politicians (and I do not buy the line that women just don't want to do these kinds of jobs);
- socialisation that teaches us to be demure, not speak up over men, be submissive, etc.
While I agree on men having problems (and being happy that's not being overlooked), I wanted to point out a few observations of my own. However, my intent is not to say that you are wrong, but to merely present another perspective here.
- Men can be objectified, and are EXPECTED to look exceptional (though same goes for ladies).
- If a guy gets raped, he will never be able to show his face in public if he says anything about it. Nobody would ever take him seriously.
- Yeah, I've got nothing to add. Those laws are up s*** creek.
- (Nothing to add)
- (See above)
- Men can get pretty inconsistent teachings from their parents (or other role models) on how to generally behave, or then are just expected to be dominant. Then they end up ridiculed if they cannot live up to this standard, which is pretty much my experience with that and with many things "manly" in nature.
All in all, women get the shorter end of the stick more often, there's no denying that.
Though now I wonder that despite my stance of wanting full gender equality, how many are going to think I'm a misogynist just for this post...
I don't really want to go into this too deeply (because fundamentally this isn't what the thread is about), but many things have been mentioned already, including:
- women being treated like objects, especially sex objects (cat-calling, "compliments" out of nowhere);
That would be uncomfortable. Then again, I ain't exactly a looker so I don't know if it happens to men or not.
- much higher likelihood of being raped (and being blamed for it)
Probably true. Then again men are more likely to suffer a violent death. Dying or being assaulted or anything all sounds bad to me though.
our bodies being treated like public property (abortion laws)
That does suck. I'm not a fan of that at all.
the wage gap, which I believe still shows that women earn something like 75% of what men do in the same industry on average;
Agreed. That is a real shortfall. Hopefully that will start to be redressed more and more as women get into higher earning positions as time goes on and better access to higher ed in all areas, This is the best point in this whole argument about privilege. Men do often take much more riskier jobs, but that probably does not make up for the difference. Part of it is also probably a disproportionate burden falling on women to raise children, and that hampering career growth.
The lack of women in high prestige positions such as CEOs and politicians (and I do not buy the line that women just don't want to do these kinds of jobs)
Nor would I, the same being true for a lot of math and science jobs for women. It is a legacy thing, society is painfully slow to change. It takes so long to bubble up to the top. Hopefully that will start to change soon. I'm ready for a female president if she's capable, and have been for awhile.
socialisation that teaches us to be demure, not speak up over men, be submissive, etc.
Ugh. I'd like a woman to be a partner in our endeavors, and always speak her mind and be self-reliant. I hate nothing more than to have a female character in a movie twist her ankle and fall over or a female character in a video game be useless eyecandy. Then again, most big budget stuff is so afraid of change that they go with the most standard formula possible to minimize risk. Independent or lower budget games/movies can justify the risk of getting outside of that comfort zone.
This is not to say men don't have problems. But a lot of the root of men's problems are entirely because there is a stigma around being female. For example, the "grin and bear it" thing is the MANLY thing to do... because only women are allowed to express emotions, pain, and suffering. Thus, showing that is bad because being a woman is bad.
That's actually a very good point that I hadn't considered. Made me sit back and think for a looong moment. That is certainly quite possible, then again it may just for breaking the standard gender stereotype. I'll have to mull that over before I feel like I can answer that.
I'm Australian, actually. ;) North American privilege!!11! :P (a joke, if that wasn't clear.)
Haha! Should come over here. We have gay marriage in a few states, Hopefully more soon. Then again people do need to push that sort of change everywhere.
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- Men can be objectified, and are EXPECTED to look exceptional (though same goes for ladies).
Women face this far, far more than men do, and the "But it's just a compliment!" line is all-too-common. Although I entirely agree that it is problematic for anyone.
If a guy gets raped, he will never be able to show his face in public if he says anything about it. Nobody would ever take him seriously.
Agreed, this is terrible. Rape is terrible, horrible, and disgusting, and I wish it would be eradicated from the world RIGHT NOW. NOBODY should be treated like shit when they get violated. I do not deny male victims of rape any level of seriousness and believe they should get as best treatment and support as we can provide for them.
However, statistically speaking women are much more likely to be raped (the 1 in 5 statistic is positively cringe-worthy), victim blaming for women is absolutely rampant, and it pervades the way women are socialised a whole lot more. See also, the whole walking alone and getting mugged v.s. getting raped thing. See also, the way we're taught to analyse every single interaction with men to make sure we're going to be safe.
Men can get pretty inconsistent teachings from their parents (or other role models) on how to generally behave, or then are just expected to be dominant. Then they end up ridiculed if they cannot live up to this standard, which is pretty much my experience with that and with many things "manly" in nature.
The patriarchy is so dumb. It hurts men so much, and yet it's typically reinforced by straight white men in power positions. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could live without fear of discrimination for not fitting the mould of what's "masculine" or "feminine"?
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That's actually a very good point that I hadn't considered. Made me sit back and think for a looong moment. That is certainly quite possible, then again it may just for breaking the standard gender stereotype. I'll have to mull that over before I feel like I can answer that.
And so the evil worm of feminism wriggles its way into your brain at last! Hahah! *twirls evil, pasted-on moustache*
Just another thought to add fuel to the fire: Women can actually break the gender stereotypes far more easily and "acceptably" than men can. We "man up", we wear men's clothes, we work men's careers, we speak like men, act like men without too many problems. (Provided you don't look too much like a man or a bull-dyke lesbian, of course. Sigh.)
But what happens when a man acts like a woman? Whether that's wearing a skirt or showing emotions or admitting pain or being submissive or ANYTHING, they are immediately jumped on for being girly or gay. I can't think of many things that are stereotypically "female" that are generally "okay" for men to do. Can you?
Haha! Should come over here. We have gay marriage in a few states, Hopefully more soon. Then again people do need to push that sort of change everywhere.
Luckily my girlfriend is Canadian, so when we're done with our educations we can run off there together. I just hope that my country wakes up to itself and legalises the damn thing sooner.
- Men can be objectified, and are EXPECTED to look exceptional (though same goes for ladies).Women face this far, far more than men do, and the "But it's just a compliment!" line is all-too-common. Although I entirely agree that it is problematic for anyone.
If a guy gets raped, he will never be able to show his face in public if he says anything about it. Nobody would ever take him seriously.Agreed, this is terrible. Rape is terrible, horrible, and disgusting, and I wish it would be eradicated from the world RIGHT NOW. NOBODY should be treated like s$!* when they get violated. I do not deny male victims of rape any level of seriousness and believe they should get as best treatment and support as we can provide for them.
However, statistically speaking women are much more likely to be raped (the 1 in 5 statistic is positively cringe-worthy), victim blaming for women is absolutely rampant, and it pervades the way women are socialised a whole lot more. See also, the whole walking alone and getting mugged v.s. getting raped thing. See also, the way we're taught to analyse every single interaction with men to make sure we're going to be safe.
Men can get pretty inconsistent teachings from their parents (or other role models) on how to generally behave, or then are just expected to be dominant. Then they end up ridiculed if they cannot live up to this standard, which is pretty much my experience with that and with many things "manly" in nature.The patriarchy is so dumb. It hurts men so much, and yet it's typically reinforced by straight white men in power positions. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could live without fear of discrimination for not fitting the mould of what's "masculine" or "feminine"?
Hey, I'd prefer that kind of world. I'd also want to add in that people didn't judge others by their sexual orientation, potential fetishes, religion (hell, I get death threats from the one I was "born" into) and many other things that just make us different. Then again, I've become pessimistic enough to think that we'll probably achieve this equality when we're all dead as dirt.
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And so the evil worm of feminism wriggles its way into your brain at last! Hahah! *twirls evil, pasted-on moustache*
Hah! Maybe. Then again it is close to my 9am bedtime, so it could just be me wearing down. Glad to hear, I am sorta envious of some things about Canada, but not others. Things like that being one.
On a serious note, it does give me a lot to consider. Just to say, engagement like this is infinitely more effective than labels and stuff and pointing and blaming for convincing people. Most people I've found are open to having their minds changed or to at least hearing you out if stuff is presented in a reasonable and calm manner. Some people you're just not going to convince no matter what. But some of us are willing to listen. Although I'm not convinced about this Patriarchy bit, more that it's just an Oligarchy.
Hey, I'd prefer that kind of world. I'd also want to add in that people didn't judge others by their sexual orientation, potential fetishes, religion (hell, I get death threats from the one I was "born" into) and many other things that just make us different. Then again, I've become pessimistic enough to think that we'll probably achieve this equality when we're all dead as dirt.
I hear you on that. Some of it is just people being ignorant. That is going to go on for perpetuity. It's just a thing we humans tend to do, a whole us v them dynamic to make ourselves feel a part of a group. Often it's not so much that we don't like the other group, just disliking them gives us a reason to be with our own group. The first two tribes of humanity probably chucked spears at each other just because they were different.
Society is increasingly fracturing into smaller and smaller subcultures more and more isolated from one another with fewer and fewer shared experiences. I doubt we will ever see some sort of broad based equality because we're just not well programmed for it. If it's not gender it's race, if it's not race it's nationality, if it's not race it's religion. We have a tribal mentality that is incredibly hard to shake...
Man I need to stop rambling. Night.
But you know what isn't sexist against men? The game industry. I'm hard-pressed to think of an industry that caters more to straight men.
I don't know if its something about the game industry itself or if its just a function of the vast male majority. I know bowling night sounds different on guys night. The all male construction crew I was on would have made Tosh.0 blush.
If this is the case the solution is more women involved in gaming. Of course thats a catch 22...
It's enthusiastically, defiantly, and often militantly misogynistic. Which is what this thread is about. I did an interview about what it's like to be a woman in the game industry, which currently is an experience that includes, for most of us (at least most of us who have worked at large game companies): harassment, dismissal, gender policing, outright objectification, and so on. And the person who started this thread asked how to make women feel more comfortable in game environments.
If you want to change whats going on in these neanderthal skulls of ours you have to know whats going on in these neanderthal skulls of ours.
You knowyou're being harassed because harassment is defined as something you don't like. If i witness something at work or at a gaming table I might think its harassment, but I'm not going to make waves unless I know. I can't know unless you tell me. This goes for a lesser extent to the harasser-they're probably clueless, not malicious. (there are exceptions though. You apparently ran into one of these. Are cattle prods legal in your state?)
Yes, we can be that clueless.
Guys tend to talk over each other. The more forceful one usually keeps going when that happens. If you have a predominantly male group that interaction becomes the default for the group. It has the effect of shutting you out if you're not used to it, but that isn't the intent.
I can't see a perfect solution here. I'm pessimistic about the ability of a communications class to change a lifetime of learned subconscious behavior. I've been told that talking over the guys can come with its own set of problems. Telling the guys to remember they're talking to a woman and not just talk over them the same way they would with a guy verges into the dreaded area of special treatment- you got your friend to notice it and change it, but making it a more official HR policy can be problematic.
For example one of your suggestions was to was to offer to walk a lady to her car after the game. Thats problematic on a few levels.
1) The implication that someone needs special protection from a guy because they're female could easily be seen as misogynistic.
2) My motives could easily be misinterpreted
3) The other players might be scarier than the random stranger standing in the parking lot.
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This may be too personal, so bear with me.
I'm a very privileged white guy. I happen to have an amazing wife whom I adore, who I was able to talk into Pathfinder as a way to spend more time with her. Initially, I was guilty of many of the sins that have been enumerated above- telling her what to do, how to react, what to play, where to go, how to build her character, under the auspices of "guidance" and "advice." She didn't seem to be enjoying herself very much, and I anguished over how I could make her happier and enjoy the game more.
It wasn't an unusual thing for me to do something like that- when she was unhappy, I felt it was sort of my duty, as the privileged white guy, as the provider husband, as the alpha male, to see to it that I fixed her. Sometimes she'd have trouble with her work, or with her friends or her family, she'd be upset or anxious or emotional, and I would set up nights trying to think about how I could fix her problems.
Then I figured something out- I can't. They aren't MY problems. They're her problems. And so I set about trying to take a very novel (for me) approach- I would stay out of her way for the most part. I would listen when she talked, but I wouldn't offer advice unsolicited. I would be supportive of whatever she wanted to do, and try to help her achieve her goals to the best of her ability, but I wouldn't make myself responsible for her successes or failures. Her happiness is her business- all I could do was try and support her in her quest for it. I'll be damned if we weren't both happier for it.
I applied this also to our Pathfinder relationship. She grew a lot as a player, and started having a lot more fun. She learned a lot more about the rules, became more self-sufficient as a player, and has even expressed interest in GMing. I'm very proud of how she's doing, because I know it's all her development.
I try to apply this same stratagem now to all players at the Pathfinder Lodge where I attend games- I listen, I offer advice when asked (trying to cut down on the unsolicited "guidance"), and I generally try to stay out of the way. I think this advice is equally good for both male and female gamers, but can be especially difficult for folks like me who want to help others- especially new female gamers.
DM_aka_Dudemiester has the crux of it- Be Excellent to Each Other. Knowing when to volunteer to help, and knowing when to shut up, sit down, and let the person play through their character, make their own mistakes, enjoy their own creative triumphs, are equally important.
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For example one of your suggestions was to was to offer to walk a lady to her car after the game. Thats problematic on a few levels.
1) The implication that someone needs special protection from a guy because they're female could easily be seen as misogynistic.
2) My motives could easily be misinterpreted
3) The other players might be scarier than the random stranger standing in the parking lot.
For a situation like that, context, tone, and reaction are key.
If you say, "Hey, it's getting dark, can I walk you to your car?" It is a question. It gives control to the person who answers the question. Being a question, it is not inherently hateful (and someone who sees it that way has their own problem, which you have to recognize probably ultimately has little to do with you). If someone does take offense, you can in fact point out, "Just asking. You don't want to, that's cool. Have a good night." That reaffirms that you're offering to be helpful, you are not implying anything insensitive.
If the woman asked says, "No thank you," then that is your turn to accept it and walk away. It doesn't matter whether she doesn't want you to bother, or you think she thinks you're hitting on her, or whether it's an assessment of the others in the group.
If you say, "No, really, I have to walk you to your car," then you're taking agency away from her. Then it becomes an issue of sexism. Then she has a right to be angry, because it's gone from a polite offer many women would in fact take up, to something that is about YOU (you feeling you MUST walk her to her car) not her.
One time, a stranger--not just a man, a man I'd never seen before--walked up to me when I was carrying a large box. I will note I was walking at a brisk pace and not visibly struggling with the box. He approached me and said, "That's too heavy for you, let me take that." And then he proceeded to try to take the box out of my hands, without my permission. "I got it," I snapped, resenting both that the man assumed I was not strong enough to carry the box (I was) and that a stranger was trying to take my personal property from me. "I was just being chivalrous," he whined as I walked away.
But he wasn't being chivalrous. He was being invasive and rude and making blatantly wrong assumptions about me. The key was -- he didn't ask and he invaded my space without permission. That is not chivalry, it is trying to exert power over me, a perceived weak being.
Another time, recently, I was carrying two large bags, one of which was heavy, and I was struggling a little to move at a decent pace in a situation where I needed to. A male friend of mine said, "Hey, can I carry that bag for you a little while? It looks like it's causing you some trouble." I said, "Sure," and handed him the bag with a big thank you. This was different, because he asked and he put the decision in my hands. It is also because he was observing me and saw that I was struggling, not making assumptions.
There is no harm in asking--and again, if offense is taken by a question, then that's an issue she has, not you. And more often than not, as long as help is offered and asked about, but NOT ASSUMED or FORCED, then it's no big deal.
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This thread fascinates as often as it horrifies. As strange a garden as I have ever seen.
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Getting back on topic, I actually had a question for Jessica Price with regard to Sexism in the Gaming Industry:
Do you find the tabletop/pen-and-paper gaming industry to be better when it comes to dealing with issues of sexism versus the electronic gaming industry? Or are they about the same overall? And when I say "sexism" I am referring both to the inner workings of the company/employee interrelationship as well as what they produce. Do you feel that electronic gaming companies are getting better, or are they staying about the same? And I understand if it is hard to give any specific examples without breaching confidentiality or provoking a slander/libel action.
The reason that I ask is that while I am pretty well entrenched in the local gaming community, I am utterly ignorant when it comes to matters of the industry that actually produces these games for us and informs the gaming culture as a whole, whether it be computer games, pen-and-paper games, card games, etc. What I mean by "informing the gaming culture" can mean things as simple as memorable characters. For example, I cannot recall off the top of my head a female character from a recent video game that I found to be particularly compelling, with the sole exception of Alyx Vance from Half Life 2. However, as memorable as she was, she was still an NPC. Meanwhile, I can think of a half dozen iconic female characters from Pathfinder that I find immensely interesting (actually, more interesting and compelling than most of the male characters except for Seltyiel). They are made all the better because whether you are a man or woman, you can actually play these characters, and they do not have to be relegated to background characters or support characters.
Because from the article and interview I read, it seems that the electronic gaming company you worked for was woefully backwards when it came to dealing with issues of sexual harassment, whereas Paizo doesn't seem to have any significant occurences of that happening (and if it did, it looks like Paizo would immediately move to rectify the matter rather than brush it under the rug). That is not to say that a gaming company in which some form of sexism occurs is necessarily going to produce games that have ill-defined female characters, or vice-versa. But it is so nice to see a company that has progressive gender-relations policy also producing games where both male and female characters are so well-written.
I just deleted a long post, but suffice it to say that I think Jessica's comments have been pretty much spot-on, and I've gotten a lot out of the thread. However, I've also been a bit depressed reading some of the condescending "advice" being thrown around by others.
I'm a short dude named Goldman... but I don't need a tall Christian to suggest for me that people remove all size penalties to Strength from the game, and that grappling should never take place in the game, and that being lost in the desert can never be used in the game, and that all currency and jewelry should be removed from the game, or you'll offend the short and Jewish demographics (who are underpriveleged in the religion and height areas, if not in the gender one). Because I don't actually mind those elements in general, and I can speak for myself if they're being used inappropriately. Just as the female players I know have all been perfectly capable of speaking up for themselves when they became annoyed at something -- we've seen that in this thread, too.
It's a very, very good thing to point out privilege and how it personally has impacted you. I find it somewhat less useful for people who are ashamed of their own privilege in one area to tell everyone else what to do about it in order to help the people who are affected.
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So, if I can summarize how this thread has gone:
OP: Hey, Jessica did this interview and wow, some of it was kind of disturbing. How do we help? How do we make sure our gaming environments are friendly to women?
A poster: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? We're mistreated in other areas of life!
Some female posters: <share some experiences>
Some male posters: Yikes, that stuff is awful. Let's not do that. Here are some questions we have/challenges we face/experiences we've had in gaming groups with women. How do we work together to all have fun?
Some other male posters: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? HOW DO WE MAKE THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT US?
Me: <bunch of stuff about making gaming environments friendly> Also, derailment is a form of silencing. Please don't do it.
Some male posters: <textbook derailment> BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? Also, we're not privileged because our lives have not been easy and it's offensive to be told we're privileged.
Some other posters: <valiant attempts to get the thread back on topic> So yes, how do we make gaming environments--
Some male posters: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? Stop telling us to take it to a different thread! WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT MEN'S CHALLENGES!
Me: <wins Derailment Bingo> <headdesks>
Here's the thing: I wouldn't have done that interview with a gaming publication, since I don't have a death wish. And heaven bless the Paizo community, because as frustrated as I may get by the privilege blinders of some of the guys here, I'm 95% confident I won't get the "I found your home address, b****" emails I've gotten in other communities, which is part of the reason I'm here engaging at all, whereas I wouldn't engage with, say, the Kotakim.
I believe there are enough people here who want to make their gaming spaces friendly for people who are different from the average player that it's a worthwhile conversation to have. I think it's an important conversation to have.
But I am still frustrated that even here, we can't have that conversation without immediate attempts to shut it down/silence it by derailing.
I think RPGs have largely avoided a lot of the misogyny that infects the video game industry, but they still have a lot of baggage inherited from their early days, and since women are a minority among RPG players, they can still be experienced as hostile or unwelcoming to women (as evidenced by the stories some of the people in this thread -- both male and female -- have shared).
And I've gotten PMed by people (men, actually, if that matters) who wanted to talk about and get advice about making their gaming environments more friendly, and are pretty frustrated that we can't have that conversation without the WHAT ABOUT THE MEN crowd insisting that we talk about their struggles outside of gaming instead. And I'm sad that people who read the original topic and were interested and happy to read about the subject are instead finding a thread rehashing 999 identical conversations on numerous gaming sites that happen every time people try to talk about fixing some of the problems faced by women in gaming. It's incredibly wearying.
So, I'm going to finish my breakfast, get to work, and clean up the thread a bit. If you want to talk about how society is sexist against men, take it to the Off-Topic forum with the other political conversations.
We're going to have an on-topic conversation here about the questions the OP posed. If you want to have a different conversation, you can do that! You can do that in a different thread.
For those who have asked me specific questions related to the topic, thank you, and I'll attend to your questions shortly. :-)
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One topic that has had some good conversation around it has been "how to ensure a welcoming environment at the table".
Make things fun for everyone and people won't want to leave. Seems pretty logical.
Are there any things that can be done to attract women or other underrepresented groups to the hobby? How can this be fostered at the hobby shop or comic book store?
Andy
Deathquaker: Your suggestions are good, but still too far from fool proof for me to try. Context and tone that I think mean one thing can seem to mean something completely different to women.
Cheers, Jessica. I appreciate your bringing this topic to light and for your re-rails. Also kudos to SKR and Paizo's general stance.
OK. I removed some posts that took the thread down tangents that had nothing to do with gaming, and posts that responded to them. (Not all of them, because this thread was quite a tangle, but I think most of them.)
This doesn't mean that all the posts were bad, that the people posting them were wrong or bad people or whatever -- it just means that they felt, in my admittedly subjective opinion, like posts that would cause a reader who was reading this thread to get answers to the questions asked in the original post to decide that this thread wasn't about that discussion and stop reading. (That includes some discussions of privilege, class, the treatment of men in various non-game-related contexts, etc.)
If you believe I removed a post that was an essential part of the discussion on how to make gaming environments more friendly toward women, please PM me and we'll chat about it.
Carry on!
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A group that asks itself how it can be more friendly to female gamers is already pretty much at the destination because it reflects upon itself.
Most female unfriendly groups do everything to avoid reflecting upon themselves because then they would see that most of their "ideals" and rituals (like trash talking, a fixation on "combat" or the notion that you must "earn" something by endless boring repetition) are just a hollow facade for insecurities and traumas.