In defense of magic shoppes


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Mark Hoover wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

I played DnD based video games from back when frogger made them look like a joke.

I played this game in PnP nearly from the beginning, ... and can tell you...
I kind of want to save your post for posterity; usually the "I'm so old, only I know the right way to play" mentality is masked, rather than explicit.
Well I think it's pretty amusing you are using a video game as the basis for your argument in PnP. That's like claiming a movie "Based" on historical events, IS a historical event.
Movies aren't history? What about JFK? (snark included)

just remember BACK and to the RIGHT! Back and to the right!


Destroyed. *nod* Sure thing.

Have fun arguing about telescopes. I'm sure yours is the best. If, at some point, you'd like to bring this thread back around to get real discussion on your original post about Dungeons and Dragons / Pathfinder and whether Magic Shops should or should not be included in a campaign, I'm sure you'll get more people interested in the thread...it was actually a rather intelligent and interesting discussion point.

Personally, though, your telescope bores me and for as wonderful as you seem to think it is, even you've managed to lose the forest for the trees...you used your telescope as an example...you now seem to believe, by your response to my post and other posts in the thread, that your main point has to do something with your special telescope...or perhaps your fly rod.

I'm not exactly sure which.

As a reminder, this was supposed to be a discussion about magical item shops and their viability within a campaign.

But feel free to continue discussing your telescope, I'm sure someone here cares.

--Illydth

To respond to your edit: I did not ask you a specific question. I used your example of a telescope and gave you a HYPOTHETICAL Situation to express my belief that it is not the physical object of the telescope that gives value but the experiences that that telescope provides you that allows you to stay attached and attracted to it.

It was actually a rather minor point in my response to your position that, instead, you decided to take literally and then respond to directly instead of looking at the broader topic of how your telescope and my theoretical situation applied to your original question of whether magical shops are or are not a good idea within a campaign.

And thus the example became the argument, and why I am now exiting this off topic and entirely useless thread.

Restart it at some point with your original question Dragon, it was a good one...just leave your telescope and fly rod out of it next time....you're a bit too attached to them.


@ Jiggy: seconded. Man, what a bunch of little girls we are (from a guy raising 2 little girls and STILL acts like them himself sometimes...)


LOL.

Back to the regularly scheduled magic shop discussion...

Someone started an excellent thread on how to make a great magic shop for your campaign. I think that's where I'll head now.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

mdt does the best magic seller I have yet seen.

Basically set up like a high class diamond retailer. Separate floors for different classes of items. Armed guards and mages on hand for defense. A retainer required to even access the more expensive sections, with a service fee if you do not purchase anything.

Certainly something I'm going to draw inspiration from in the future.

*blush*

:)

Glad you liked it.


It still amuses me how downright rabid we (as a group) can get when it comes to discussing the finer points of a hobby that we all presumably enjoy.

Illydth- I 100% agree with the point you are making. Personally, I play for the story and interaction and couldn't care less about the numbers behind a specific item.

But, AD- I agree with you also, that it is impossible to ignore the system as written, and like it or not, if you play long enough, you will have to accept the abundance and qualities of such items.

Not to trivialize this thread, but it appears you two are splitting hairs. Can't we all just get along? :)


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
It's an arms race regardless Shallowsoul. As I have pointed out several times now, having magic items of an appropriate level for at least the "big six" is required to be competitive. Magic shops are just a way to acquire them. Since you need them anyway then if the player character can't purchase them then they are at the mercy of the GM arbitrarily distributing them through fiat or through forcing the PC to quest to attain them. So in the end it boils down to a question of who owns the player's character concept and build. The player or the GM. Frankly I don't care to beg my GM to please, please, please drop that +3 shocking longbow that my character needs so much. And in terms of verisimilitude there isn't much that makes me roll my eyes as much as the "amazing coincidence" that the party just happened to find that item the rogue has been whining about for the past three months of game time.

With all due respect -- and I realize that things have gotten a little heated here and there in this thread -- you are pretty much right about all of this, but I don't think that it's quite that simple. Yes, the items do need to be there, but I believe that you are overlooking at least one possibility for delivering them. Or maybe we just have a different standard for verisimilitude (which of course is a very uncertain foundation upon which to be constructing any argument relating to a fantasy RPG).

Fantasy literature is full of examples of cases where a given character can use a given item to accomplish something in chapter X + D (where D > 0) that he/she could not accomplish with that same item in chapter X. Sometimes there is even a scene in chapter X in which the character fails that exact task, just to raise the narrative stakes for the subsequent attempt in chapter X + D. In fact, the pre-cursor game for Pathfinder eventually published some rules for this, but of course the idea had been around before that. So I believe that there is another option (besides shoppes, or implausible drops, or forcing quests, or restricting character options): an item can develop along with the character.

Of course, I run a certain kind of game for a certain kind of player (40-year-olds who happen not to come from a gaming background that prizes optimizing their character builds). They get to develop their characters the way they want, and they do grow quite attached to certain items (which acquire an identity and a history of their own), and the whole evolving item thing makes sense for them because they've seen it / read it a dozen times. It's not exactly RAW, but all it really entails is that their favorite item gets incrementally better at a level-appropriate time, and I drop a correspondingly smaller amount of gold. A case could be made that it is simply a primitive form of altering the game system to shift the power focus from the item to the character, but doing so within the existing game mechanics.

PS
Congratulations on being introduced to TB. Personally, I have no interest in that as an alternative game system, but as a mathematical deconstruction of the game -- to facilitate house-ruling that won't break game balance, given that I don't have access to a team of play-testers -- it is priceless. For example, I spend an inordinate amount of my time customizing monsters. TB doesn't have much material on that, but it does include references to absurdly detailed deconstructions of what contributes to CR. Not that those deconstructions are necessarily perfect, but they do provide detailed guidelines, especially if one accepts a key premise that does appear in TB: the numbers have somewhat more play built into them than one might fear. So even if the CR deconstructions are incorrect in a way that suffers from a consistent mathematical bias (either too strong or too weak), I probably won't imbalance my game too much by using them (as long as I apply my changes judiciously).


I agree with you Meteo 9999. They both have great points and of course different points of view. But I believe it all comes down to the individual groups wants and needs.
Yes, Ye olde Magic Shoppe, is in itself a quandary of sorts. I believe alot of people may be viewing it as, if the town size is so big, then no matter what x,y and z will be available. I don't think that's it necessarily that way, and that's leading people to think there is no work or history to the said items. I don't know, maybe.
Then we have the view point of the ever benevolent DM, that if said PC's need x,y or z then of course those items will just happen to appear in the next 2 or 3 item dumps. That in itself is no different IMO then letting them get what they want.


thejeff wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

I think where we disagree here is you are running games where the PC's are the exception to the rule. If you run your games like that then more power to you but I don't. I don't have 45 magic shops spread out amongst 16 cities for the sole benefit of the PC's. There are more than one wizard, fighter, cleric etc walking around the world. If I were to add a magic shop into my games then it would actually fit into the city as if the PC's never existed. Those shop owners have to make money, they can't sit there with merchandise in their cases waiting on the PC's to show up and buy it. The Ferrari and Leer Jet examples are not good because it's a lot easier, rules wise, for magic items to be created in a fantasy world than Ferraris and Leer Jets are in the real world.

Now because my games run realistically, magic item shops would disrupt things unless I wanted to run a very high magic type of campaign where everyone has some kind of magic item.

Let's discuss magic item creation on top of magic item shops. The items in shops have to come from somewhere, unless you are running a game that doesn't take those things into account and that shopkeeper has that cabinet stocked just for the PC's, so that is partly where your magic item creation comes into play. Shop keepers do rely on other adventurers to bring in the goods but they aren't as reliable as the items being created. Now if you combine the two then you have items coming in by the truckload.

You could have loads of spellcasters who sell their goods to different shops all around the land but at the same time, the shop keepers wouldn't be buying anything unless they had buyers which is where those outside the PC's come in.

Maybe I try to have things too realistic and "living" as I call it but that is how I have fun.

The more of something you put out there, the more common it becomes. Look at calculators, they used to be very expensive but now you can pick one up for a euro at a shop.

So are you actually arguing that...

I'm still working on the over arching analysis of the prices of magic and items and what it means in context of the economic system I outlined in the thread you referenced...

but so far they are holding firm.

I'm guessing this is pretty much where the thread ends -- we've gone over subjective measures, and until I'm done with my analysis it's unlikely anyone else will do anything objective to actually 'prove' that the economic system (and therefore the pathfinder system) 'breaks' by including the magical item sells as they are presented in the system.

I would suggest that "magic shoppes" wouldn't simply sell items, that instead they would be covering much more ground ranging from selling the casting of individual spells to magical components, to actual magical items and probably some alchemical items, familiars and other knick-knacks as well.


See #8

Ultimate Campaign: The Total Game Changer

Thursday, February 7, 2013

If you heard the trumpeting and roar of cheers last week, that was us, as we just sent our first hardcover of 2013, Ultimate Campaign, off to the printer. This is just the beginning of that book's long journey from the realm of electronic files into the real world, but now that it's out of our hands we can start sharing some of the secrets locked away within this guide to greater gaming.

So, without too many spoilers, here are ten tantalizing teasers about Ultimate Campaign to tide you over while it's printing.

10. Do Over! Ready for something different? Wish you hadn't taken that one suboptimal feat at first level? Eager to test out the newest base class? The choices you made yesterday don't have to sour the game you're playing today now that you have complete rules allowing characters to retrain class features, whether they be feats and skill ranks or entire class levels!

9. There's a Table for That. How many siblings does your dwarf character have? What were your parents' professions? What has your alchemist character been up to before you started playing him? What is your relationship to your fellow adventurers? You'll know, because with the background generator, there are tables for all that and much, much, much more.

8. Build a Legend. The downtime system unlocks awesome new challenges for your character to take on between adventures, like creating a headquarters for your adventures, starting a tavern, or even building a castle. With downtime, use your wealth, influence, and magic to shape your game world like never before.

7. You're the Boss. Downtime isn't just about building structures; it's also about building groups. Once you've constructed a temple to your own glory, you're going to need sycophants to staff it. Cults, mercenary companies, thieves guilds, ships crews, and more are ready and awaiting your orders.

6. Alain Is a Jerk. Sutter and I tackle the fiction snippets at the start of each chapter, and this time around you'll love to hate our pompous iconic cavalier.

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F. Wesley Schneider
Editor-in-Chief

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Silver Crusade

ZugZug wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

Magic Item Marts are a blight to a campaign.

Let's look at a few reasons why.

1: They essentially become expensive common items. You might as well go with 4th edition's design and put all magic items in the PHB.

You might as well put magic items into the standard gear column of the PHB and enable themto purchase the items at the start of the campaign.

Edit: It becomes an arms race.

K, I gotta ask.

Do you have a Pathfinder Core Rulebook?
Cause all the Magic Items ARE in there already.

They might not be in the "Standard Gear" column (well, some of them are already), but they are in the Book.

I might be missing your attempt at Sarcasm though. But its hard to translate it sometimes. Especially when you're using it as a Reason to defend why you dislike something.

I own lots of Pathfinder books actually.

The thing is the magic items are in the DM section, chapter 12+, of the book. Paizo decided to cut down on two books so they shoved them all into one. If they were two books then magic items would be in the DMG.

There is no sarcasm. I'm not sure if you own the 4th edition Player's Guide but it contains magic items while the Dungeon Master's Guide does not. The game itself was specifically designed where PC's must have magic items because it is thoroughly built into the system so they moved the items to the player's book.

Silver Crusade

Dorn Of Citadel Adbar wrote:

See #8

Ultimate Campaign: The Total Game Changer

Thursday, February 7, 2013

If you heard the trumpeting and roar of cheers last week, that was us, as we just sent our first hardcover of 2013, Ultimate Campaign, off to the printer. This is just the beginning of that book's long journey from the realm of electronic files into the real world, but now that it's out of our hands we can start sharing some of the secrets locked away within this guide to greater gaming.

So, without too many spoilers, here are ten tantalizing teasers about Ultimate Campaign to tide you over while it's printing.

10. Do Over! Ready for something different? Wish you hadn't taken that one suboptimal feat at first level? Eager to test out the newest base class? The choices you made yesterday don't have to sour the game you're playing today now that you have complete rules allowing characters to retrain class features, whether they be feats and skill ranks or entire class levels!

9. There's a Table for That. How many siblings does your dwarf character have? What were your parents' professions? What has your alchemist character been up to before you started playing him? What is your relationship to your fellow adventurers? You'll know, because with the background generator, there are tables for all that and much, much, much more.

8. Build a Legend. The downtime system unlocks awesome new challenges for your character to take on between adventures, like creating a headquarters for your adventures, starting a tavern, or even building a castle. With downtime, use your wealth, influence, and magic to shape your game world like never before.

7. You're the Boss. Downtime isn't just about building structures; it's also about building groups. Once you've constructed a temple to your own glory, you're going to need sycophants to staff it. Cults, mercenary companies, thieves guilds, ships crews, and more are ready and awaiting your orders.

6. Alain Is a Jerk. Sutter...

Not a lot there that sounds appealing to me. A few things sound okay but I'm not sure about the others.


Charlatans during the crusades used to sell "relics" to pilgrims; some claimed that not only were they holy artifacts but they might also cure disease or blindness - MAGIC SHOPPE!

Modern day wiccans brew and sell mugwort potions for astral travel in small occult shops - MAGIC SHOPPE!

The myth-series by the late great Robert Lynn Asprin had the Bazaar at Deeva where ALL MANNER of magical oddity might be purchased - MAGIC SHOPPE!

In the movie Brave, Merida is led to a witch's home and workshop where she purchases (among other things) a magical cake that turns her mother and brothers into bears - MAGIC SHOPPE!

I'm not saying you HAVE to have a magic shoppe in your game. I'm merely pointing out that variations on this theme have existed for hundreds of years. They might look like anything.

Imagine, for example, you hear tell of a dungeon below a ruined church at the edge of a cow pasture in a tiny village. You head to the village and there meet some interesting NPCs; among them are a noble bard that knows all kinds of legends about the place and sounds like Sean Connery, an expert blacksmith and a peg-legged boy named Wort. The shifty lad never enters the village; instead he stays well away from the other villagers for he's a rapscallion but his little cart always seems to have some useless but mildly-enchanted bauble from the dungeon - you have no idea where he gets them. The blacksmith on the other hand is so good at his craft that with no magic to speak of (skill based item creation feats) he's able to turn Skymetal into a magic weapon. Other adventurers passing through the village stop by his place from time to time to sell old gear; some of this might have some enchantments upon it.

Now that's 2 different magic shoppes that have nothing to do with a mage or in one of them even a shop. It doesn't HAVE to be a catalog you just order from, or a neatly organized shop filled with racks "Swords...aisle 10. Potions...aisle 3. Blue light special: Extend Spell Metamagic Rods: find them in the barrel end-cap on aisle 14."

Or you might have none at all. Players hock gear to mages who pay them and immediately toss the magical loot into a furnace in the basement of their towers to keep the lights on and the heat working. The dwarf who opted out of adventuring so he could spend 99 years honing his amazing skill at crafting axes can hope, at best, to merely churn out masterworks that are then accidentally enchanted in forgotten halls, only to be tossed into that wizard's furnace.

Do what you want with your games; they're yours. Don't criticize others for their beliefs. But just know that, if you WANT to use magic shoppes in your game, you have as many options as you can POSSIBLY imagine.

Dark Archive

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:


Sure, there's some number inflation, but most of the claims of it and the necessity of having these bonus items is overblown. You don't need all six and you don't need to pursue them to the exclusion of other, more flavorful items. Yet that's exactly what you tend to see.

With all due respect, I don't think you are understanding my point.

The bonuses given by the "big six" items are baked into the challenge ratings. If you want to fight "appropriate level" challenges then if you don't have them, you are probably going to lose.

Sure you can redefine the abilities, hit points and combat values of all the highest level monsters in the bestiary, but at that point you may as well write your own game.

If you want to use the rules as written you have to give the PCs the magic items you are complaining about. Magic shops are a means to an end, not the end itself. You are complaining about the end.

IME you can run PF just fine with less magic items, because Pathfinder PCs are tougher and more versatile than their 3E counterparts (not to mention PF monsters and NPCs of their level). For example, roughly half of the 8th level PCs in my group have cloaks and/or rings, and most have +2 gear or equivalent at best (+1 X armor/weapon). In fact, I think the paladin has just MW armor and weapon. Anyway, I often use CR 10-12 encounters (i.e. level +2 to level +4), because they breeze through anything that should in my books be level appropriate (CR +0 or CR +1).

As for magic shops, I don't like them as "magic marts". I'm fine with a large city or metropolis containing some individuals who sell whatever they can get their hands on, but nothing too dangerous or high-level items.

Also, many posters have made comparisons between magic items and modern-day luxury items; however, I think there are a few problems with that. First of all, it's a question of supply and demand, i.e. how many local adventurers, merchants and nobles can afford (and/or are willing to invest in) such items, and how many spellcasters or skilled craftsmen are capable of making them? I can understand that a +1 keen sword might be handy at times, not to mention a bag of holding or a ring of sustenance; however, who (besides wealthy adventurers) would want to pay (for example) thousands of GPs to purchase a horn of blasting? Also, while the creation process ("enchanting an item") is relatively quick, it takes an armorer or weaponsmith a long time to create that MW full plate or greatsword that is to be "enspelled". Likewise with transporting items between towns and countries; caravans regularly carrying magic items would soon be targeted by lots of bandits, evil adventurers and monsters such as dragons (and crafting portals and/or using teleport is costly and time-consuming). If you ask me, comparing modern day income, civilization and production/logistics processes to "pseudo-medieval" fantasy world standards is not very ingenious. I might be able to save enough money to eventually buy a Ferrari, but I don't a medieval citizen making a silver piece per week (or even per day) ever could.

I see low-level scrolls and potions as a far more believable and profitable business concept than magic item shops; they're very easy to produce, and more people can afford them. If a PC desperately wants to buy an item that is not overpowered or outrageously expensive, I might let him/her buy it from a noble/(retired) adventurer NPC, temple or local wizard. Certain cities might feature curiosity/magical item shops, but if someone regularly sells items like vorpal swords or helms of brialliance, he's courting disaster. A powerful and ruthless organization with high-level resources might be able to pull this off, but nobody else (a VERY high level individual with a fearsome and vicious reputation might be an exception).

Anyway, that's my take on this issue...


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Mark Hoover wrote:

Charlatans during the crusades used to sell "relics" to pilgrims; some claimed that not only were they holy artifacts but they might also cure disease or blindness - MAGIC SHOPPE!

Now that's 2 different magic shoppes that have nothing to do with a mage or in one of them even a shop. It doesn't HAVE to be a catalog you just order from, or a neatly organized shop filled with racks "Swords...aisle 10. Potions...aisle 3. Blue light special: Extend Spell Metamagic Rods: find them in the barrel...

thats just the point. Merida coudnt just buy a magic bow there could she? or a wand of cure light wounds?

She told the witch what she wanted, the witch tried to steer her away, but she wanted something. So she got something. Was it custom? did it do precisely what merida wanted? Did her player peruse through a cataloug and expect the thing on the shelf?

It's not the magic shop perse, its the idea players have that if it's written in the book that it can be simply bought with ease at the local witchery.

the "menu" if you will, is the issue. In a Video/MMO there is no DM so the players purchase from a menu (and I can hardly recall ANY and EVERY thing being available exactly when i wanted it, even in modern MMO games),

Players expect/demand the precise item be made available to them to the point of blowing by any obstacle or RPing to get it, reducing the entire transaction to the clerical issue of erasing X gold pieces and penciling in Y item purchased.
This is pretty much the process in MMOs which carried over the expectation of ease to PnP.

Games like that should really just include selectable powers at certain levels (similar to magus or paladin ability), because there is no point to the whole magical item acquisition if it's going to be trivialized into bookkeeping.

At the point I'd be tempted to just say "you get enough treasure to get what you want, take 20 minutes to write down your new items, I m going to eat a burrito"


Dorn Of Citadel Adbar wrote:

I agree with you Meteo 9999. They both have great points and of course different points of view. But I believe it all comes down to the individual groups wants and needs.

Yes, Ye olde Magic Shoppe, is in itself a quandary of sorts. I believe alot of people may be viewing it as, if the town size is so big, then no matter what x,y and z will be available. I don't think that's it necessarily that way, and that's leading people to think there is no work or history to the said items. I don't know, maybe.
Then we have the view point of the ever benevolent DM, that if said PC's need x,y or z then of course those items will just happen to appear in the next 2 or 3 item dumps. That in itself is no different IMO then letting them get what they want.

Gotcha. Well, personally I don't think that any player should EXPECT certain items or conditions based on another game element, and I would hope that a DM wouldn't automatically grant said items.

If you want to include magic shops, then at least recognize that they are additional settings that present opportunity for roleplay. Maybe they don't always have to be routine: enter, look around, haggle, purchase, success. Throw in an attempted robbery, a pile of clearly and similarly-cursed items, or an extra-shifty or difficult shopkeeper that won't sell based on some racial bias or past history with a party member.

In my current game, the DM is running it relatively low-magic, which suits my tastes. Two characters have enchanted (spell-like effects)weapons but nobody has a +1 anything. I assume that if the group can stick together long enough, we may run into some problems down the road. But for the first 5 levels we have played, the DR and such of our enemies has not been overwhelming to the point that we need certain items.

If I could choose, I would rather have the beginning of my game to my liking, and take my chances with an under-powered character/group at the end game. Most groups I've experienced don't stick around that long anyway.


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Pendagast wrote:

It's not the magic shop perse, its the idea players have that if it's written in the book that it can be simply bought with ease at the local witchery.

the "menu" if you will, is the issue. In a Video/MMO there is no DM so the players purchase from a menu (and I can hardly recall ANY and EVERY thing being available exactly when i wanted it, even in modern MMO games),

Players expect/demand the precise item be made available to them to the point of blowing by any obstacle or RPing to get it, reducing the entire transaction to the clerical issue of erasing X gold pieces and penciling in Y item purchased.
This is pretty much the process in MMOs which carried over the expectation of ease to PnP.

Games like that should really just include selectable powers at certain levels (similar to magus or paladin ability), because there is no point to the whole magical item acquisition if it's going to be trivialized into bookkeeping.

At the point I'd be tempted to just say "you get enough treasure to get what you want, take 20 minutes to write down your new items, I m going to eat a burrito"

I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't get this idea that people feel they're entitled to items as if not having easy access to them is the DM "taking them away" as if they have a right to them and its not an awesome privelage to have found one. I'm not even a 30+ y/o guy or one to rant "In my day"..but I don't get this WoW mentality that people are designing their characters around magic items that they "must have" to fufuill their cheesy stat dreams. If I'm gonna do that I might as well go play 4E or download the latest MMORPG.


LOL, an "awesome privilege to have found one."

I think that brilliantly demonstrates the exact difference between player empowerment and GM control.

Thanks kmal2t.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
...but I don't get this WoW mentality that people are designing their characters around magic items that they "must have" to fufuill their cheesy stat dreams.

Me either, but then, I've never seen such a thing happen, so I don't even know if it exists.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Quote:
...but I don't get this WoW mentality that people are designing their characters around magic items that they "must have" to fufuill their cheesy stat dreams.
Me either, but then, I've never seen such a thing happen, so I don't even know if it exists.

I assume it's things like a monk thinking if I don't get an Amulet of Mighty Fists I'm pretty screwed.

I've seen Dex builds assuming they can get an Agile weapon.

Hell, pretty much any martial type assumes they'll be able to pick up at least some powerful weapon of the type they specialize in.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

LOL, an "awesome privilege to have found one."

I think that brilliantly demonstrates the exact difference between player empowerment and GM control.

Thanks kmal2t.

AD, I think you might be taking that quote of of context/over emphasizing it.

He means the idea of entitlement to a specific magic item means to erases the cool factor or discovery/acquisition of the item, reducing it to "just gear" and reducing the game to progression within the theorycraft of my character "must have" this, by this point in a time line and moving on to that by this benchmark, and so on.

it makes it a 'requirement' rather than a bonus; and all though the game may require certain power ups to be successful because of some rotten game design, it certainly doesn't need a character festooned with the latest item in each slot...

If a fighter specializes in Testsubo and goes no where near Tian Xia, long before he finds any magical Tetsubos, I don't think he should feel 'robbed' if he doesnt find a magical one, or goes through ANY effort at all to requisition or acquire one.

Specializinf longsword will get you quicker results of course...


let me just say whether or not you find a magic goodie in a store or a tomb, it is still 'discovery'....

Holy cow Zandar, this shop has a vorpal sword! We should totally buy it, but I dont have anywhere near that cash. Lets ask the cleric if we pool sources we can buy it!

It's still fun.

Mulling through the menu and taking sword X over Sword Y because it is mechanically superior and better buy for the coin, is... stale.

But if you try to prevent that, you have the voices of WoW/MMO calling for your lynching as a bad DM.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Meanwhile, try to get a specific item and you get called entitled.

Fair enough trade I guess.


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Running around killing stuff, on the off hand chance that some cool loot will drop, just is so ... Diablo-ish, don't you think.


Pendagast, no, I think I'm characterizing the attitudes quite precisely.

The general tendency of the anti magic shop contingent is to conflate the expectation of a fairly trivial wondrous item that would likely be a common item created in a world with the attributes of the Pathfinder game, with an "orb of awesomesauce" or some other unique and bizarre magical contraption which would normally never be conceived of by rational mind and thus to say that any expectation of locating any specific magic item is comparable to summoning ones own personal genie on demand.

The game is constructed such that at low levels where a character can afford anything, they typically benefit from common items which are not farfetched at all to expect to find in a magical realm. But for a player to say "I'd like to build a character which will benefit from an amulet of mighty fists" is treated as if the player has bound the GM into utter servitude.

The whole thing is hilarious. Especially when that same crowd then crows about the awesome generosity of GMs granting lowly PCs the rare "privilege" of gaining a magic item that suits their character's concept.

This whole thing is like a Monty Python skit.


No, your wrong, expecting a 'build' to revolve around the access to a certain item is monty python. It's quite literally in the past been called a 'Monty Haul' campaign, for years.

Lets say joe the monk has trouble hitting something, or doing damage or whatever he feels he is lacking.
Let's say the adventuring they are doing has literally come up with nothing better than a +1 silver kama.
Depressing.
a scour of the local wares provider turns up nothing useful as well.

What's a player to do? Demand such an item BE available. Ah yes how satisfying.
that's what I always do when I can find what Im looking for at the store! call the manager and tell them how much their store sucks.

The monk might look for said specific item, seek out a crafter, ask a master at a monastery any number of in game steps maybe taken to get something the character seeks.
Perhaps the other characters can help him, sell off stuff that isn't really helping the party to finance the acquisition or, just find a mage to create something from scratch.

I often get items in an AP that might not be down the alley of the players, sometimes I just make it something else... +1 flaming shortsword that's just going to get sold could easily become +1 flaming amulet of mighty fists.

But oh no that's not good enough because it's not an AGILE amulet....hmmmm ok, you can sell those hand wraps. but it might take you some TIME to find what you are SPECIFICALLY looking for.


Pendagast, a "monte haul" campaign has nothing whatsoever to do with magic shops. It has always meant a campaign where GMs shower PCs with unearned items. You can be a monte hall GM with or without magic shops. In fact I find your assertion that a player characters having access to magic shops being the same as a GM showering them with unearned gifts very revealing.

So, let's examine this monk situation you brought up. Monks are trained Pendagast. They don't spontaneously manifest martial prowess. They are trained by other monks. In a world where magic items are able to be created by anyone who cares to invest the time and gold and has a slightly above average intelligence, "amulets of mighty fists" will exist. And who would know about them? Monks. Especially older monks who have retired from adventuring and are training a new generation of adventurers. So when the young monk is learning how to be a monk, the subject of suitable magic items is likely to come up. In that conversation the older monk is probably going to say "When you can get one, an amulet of mighty fists will be very helpful."

This idea I keep hearing that characters would be utterly ignorant of the existence of suitable magic items for their purposes is simply laughable. They would know what tools will help them just as surely as a soldier knows what they need.

There is some line to be drawn here. As I said a hundred or so posts ago, what we are talking about is the intersection of the GM's domain and the player's domain in the social contract of gaming. The GM owns the world and the player owns the character. Where those two most frequently collide is in the presence or absence of magic items the player's character can benefit from. Magic shops allow the GM to draw that line well in the player's domain, providing the player more options for developing their character the way they want to. Restrictive limitations for magic items draw the line well into the GM's domain, giving the GM total control of what the player's character can obtain. Some GMs argue that they restrict access to magic items for flavor. Some players might even enjoy playing that way.

As a player I've played both ways, and I have to say, in the end, I prefer having more control over my character's options. Which, of course, is why I allow my players that "privilege."


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kmal2t wrote:
Lolz when did RPGs change that they're not GMs game with him having the final say on almost everything? Its his world and his game for him to determine how to not overpower the players and create a challenge. When did players become so entitled that they should get to run wild with whatever they can afford to get whatever they want? I must have missed something.

It is not the GM's game, it's the group's game. The entire group is playing a game. The storyteller is just another player, albeit in a different role than the rest.

I don't know how games are run at your group's table, but at our table, we discuss things like adults. When we have a rules question, the entire group decides what the best course of action is and how we want the game to be run. The GM isn't the final arbitrator on anything. We're a group of adults and we treat each other like adults. And yes, we also rotate GMs and play at different houses depending on the week (sometimes I like to cook dinner for everyone and we play at my house; other times we play at the GM's house).

I've played in a game with a power hungry GM. For nearly 15 years I played at that table. I am tired of being treated like a child. I am not an idiot, and I am tired of having to ask permission to do something with my character. I am tired of having standard rules changed on a whim because the GM thinks it creates too much power for us measly little players.

I will refuse to play at any table where the GM thinks that what they say goes, and that's that. If the GM cannot treat me like an adult and cannot treat me with the standard respect that goes with that, then I will not play at that table.

That's when the game changed. That's when the GM stopped being the be all end all decision maker: when we grew up and started acting like the adults we are.


Pendagast wrote:
Mulling through the menu and taking sword X over Sword Y because it is mechanically superior and better buy for the coin, is... stale.

Car salesmen must love you.


And uhhhh.. I don't know what "traumatic experience" you had bookrat, but the DM being the final decider doesn't mean he has to be the Fuhrer of the game or treat you like a child...you can have an adult conversation where you make a point, but the DM still has final say...no one should be forced to prepare a game (and do all that work) to run a game they don't want to...yes the group should discuss what they want, but the DM is the final decider on what you can have and how the game operates. If you don't like it you don't have to stay and complain that you're being patronized or abused...just go elsewhere.

Otherwise you might as well have the Players gang up on him and say well we want a 40 point buy in and start with Wyrm Dragons as our mounts.


Heh. Fuhrer. That is an apt description of my old GM.

I did finally go elsewhere. It took a long time, because 1) The need for power and control over others in the GM developed slowly over a long time, so it was difficult to see it grow; and 2) they were my friends of nearly 15 years. It's hard to leave old friends. It hurt having to do so.

I have a new group now. They are good people. :)

For me, being the GM is a choice with the knowledge that I will be prepping a lot ahead of time. But that doesn't give me the right to be a dictator over the group. It's a group game and it should be the whole group (GM and the players) who make the decisions. So that means that when the entire group wants to play a 40 point buy game, then that's what they play (and someone will volunteer to be the GM of that game). At the very least, that's how our group plays and that's the way I like it.


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Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Pendagast, a "monte haul" campaign has nothing whatsoever to do with magic shops. It has always meant a campaign where GMs shower PCs with unearned items. You can be a monte hall GM with or without magic shops. In fact I find your assertion that a player characters having access to magic shops being the same as a GM showering them with unearned gifts very revealing.

So, let's examine this monk situation you brought up. Monks are trained Pendagast. They don't spontaneously manifest martial prowess. They are trained by other monks. In a world where magic items are able to be created by anyone who cares to invest the time and gold and has a slightly above average intelligence, "amulets of mighty fists" will exist. And who would know about them? Monks. Especially older monks who have retired from adventuring and are training a new generation of adventurers. So when the young monk is learning how to be a monk, the subject of suitable magic items is likely to come up. In that conversation the older monk is probably going to say "When you can get one, an amulet of mighty fists will be very helpful."

This idea I keep hearing that characters would be utterly ignorant of the existence of suitable magic items for their purposes is simply laughable. They would know what tools will help them just as surely as a soldier knows what they need.

There is some line to be drawn here. As I said a hundred or so posts ago, what we are talking about is the intersection of the GM's domain and the player's domain in the social contract of gaming. The GM owns the world and the player owns the character. Where those two most frequently collide is in the presence or absence of magic items the player's character can benefit from. Magic shops allow the GM to draw that line well in the player's domain, providing the player more options for developing their character the way they want to. Restrictive limitations for magic items draw the line well into the GM's domain, giving the GM total control of what the player's character can...

Really because just the other week i just had a lengthy post v. post with another person on these boards about how characters spontaneously combust in the middle of dungeon into the next level and feats and DO NOT train, and that my thoughts on training, and needing to go train were antiquated and not part of this rules set.

So which is it? Do they train or not?
If they train, that's great, because then they would need to go do that, and yes they could ask questions: "great master, beating my fists on a golem really sucks, what should I do?"
But if they spontaneously combust, then no training, no opportunity to ask said wizened master.
But even if they DID spontaneously combust, the character could still go seek the wizened master, and then ask him. Heck, he might even be able to get one FROM the very monastery.
But it's not necessarily the fault of the magic shop that they just didn't have one laying around, waiting to be bought, or EXACTLY the right one, for that matter.

the monks specific master might not BE a dex based monk, and there for has never had one, in fact until recently NO monks have had them, because AGILE is a more recent enhancement in this game.
for something new to come a long like dervish dance/agile enhancement and then everything under the sun suddenly having them like Elvis stamps is silly.

I did the Dex/wis monk build for quite some time and had to listen to everyone tell me how suboptimal the build was because to be any good you had to have a high strength.

Monty Hall is the man, Monty HAUL specifically refers to all the gucci (and yes un earned) things you are Hauling around. There is nothing wrong with having a character seek out a specific item if it is really that important to him.

Perhaps someone wants to play Perseus and wants to have a Pegasus, a helm of invisibility and a vorpal sword, must they all be available in the same block of the city, because he has the money to buy them?
Is it so wrong it might take him time to get these possessions? Rather than them just being endowed upon him and made instantly available because "it's time" according to the table being referenced?


If all the players are set on a 40 point buy in (or in the case of this thread, high magic and magic shoppes with a buffet of "awesomesauce orbs") and the DM is comfortable with trying that, go for it. If he isn't he shouldn't feel obligated because the players feel its their right to build the most stupendous char they can imagine and are being oppressed if they don't get what they want. It's his time he's spending making it he shouldn't feel guilt-tripped if his players whine for easy access to gear. If I was in that situation when proposing a new game, I'd just abdicate DM to someone else and maybe Player in that game and if I didn't like it go elsewhere.


AD you also seem to think I am arguing against magic shops. Im not. I'm arguing against every and any magic vendor having anything on the menu available.

Maybe fast eddie doesnt have it, but happy helga might.

Perhaps traveling to Vudra will be much more likely for you to find your agile amulet of mighty fists, but it's just not around in cheliax, BUT you happen to find a traveling Vundran mystic who might be able to craft the item you seek, if only you can bring him the 30 gryphon toenail clippings?

nothing wrong with that.


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Again we see both Pendagast and kmal2t assert that being able to purchase a reasonable number of appropriately priced items that specifically work towards a character's concept is the equivalent of a "monte haul" campaign and a "buffet of awesomesauce orbs."

You guys really have it in for players don't you?

I just have this mental image of a player on his knees before you, holding his crude bowl in his hands saying "Please sir, may I have another?" and the rest of the players gasping out loud in shock.

Wow. I sincerely, SINCERELY hope you guys are caught up in a bad case of online debate syndrome and you don't actually GM the way you are talking. Sincerely.


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kmal2t wrote:

If all the players are set on a 40 point buy in (or in the case of this thread, high magic and magic shoppes with a buffet of "awesomesauce orbs") and the DM is comfortable with trying that, go for it. If he isn't he shouldn't feel obligated because the players feel its their right to build the most stupendous char they can imagine and are being oppressed if they don't get what they want. It's his time he's spending making it he shouldn't feel guilt-tripped if his players whine for easy access to gear. If I was in that situation when proposing a new game, I'd just abdicate DM to someone else and maybe Player in that game and if I didn't like it go elsewhere.

stupendous character, plus overly indulgent magic items = uber monsters clashing together with characters of horrific power culminating in a Monty Haul campaign.

Because you really can't do a dang thing if they all have super stats and items.

It really boils down to balance, the +5 sword is a trinket if you throw demi gods at the characters.

what is this campaign doing? if they have a 40 point buy, it's not really going to be different than say a 15 point buy because everything will need to be relative in order to play.

to the point where a 30 strength and a +5 sword will be just as effective as a 16 Strength and a masterwork sword against the right type of enemy.

so if everyone wants to ride around the universe throwing lightening bolts, and thats the game they want to play, yea... sure 40 point buy.Let me know when the campaign is over, Ive never had any fun with those. I played one for two years... I didnt have another gaming group... I was bored to tears but played anyway.
sure there were epic moments, but everything went kursplat so fast it wasn't very challenging.
then when we go bored we started with page 1 in Deities and Demi Gods and killed everything in order.... yay.


Also you could debate what is "earned" and not earned. XP gives you specifically and carefully designed increases to your character to take on new challenges. You earned those new level ups. Items are not a given to advancement like BAB like you should have bracers of defense +5 by level 12

I could however see it that a challening adventure would require you to have certain things to have a chance of survival.


Pendagast and kmal2t (and anyone else who wants to play) let's get beyond the theorycrafting and attempts to rhetorically one-up each other. I'll lay out a situation for you and you tell me how you would actually rule on it. Then we can see how close we are to each other.

I have already described the magic item shops in my game, and how I typically deal with the availability of items. The level 8 party I am GMing recently returned from a fairly long series of encounters away from town and collected some loot, including gold, gems and some magic items. They returned to town and "went shopping". This included heading to the local magic shop.

Now, I know that you two oppose the concept of magic shops. But you've also said that you have ways of granting the odd boon to your players' characters too. So let's just go through what the players asked for and see how you would handle it.

The party came back to town with the following looted magic items they did not want, and attempted to trade or sell them. Due to an impending invasion and their being sent on an urgent mission, they only had one day to resupply. Here is what they had to sell/trade:

+1 flaming longspear
+1 bow
Robe of many things

They also had several thousand gold worth of coins and gems.

They wanted to do the following:

Upgrade a +1 sword to a +2 sword
Purchase an immovable rod
Upgrade plate armor from +1 to +2
Purchase a wand of cure light wounds

How would you respond to those requests?

(EDIT: the town in question is a fairly good sized town, some 15,000 people live in the town's taxable area. It's a major trading center with lots of goods moving through the town on a daily basis.)


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Again we see both Pendagast and kmal2t assert that being able to purchase a reasonable number of appropriately priced items that specifically work towards a character's concept is the equivalent of a "monte haul" campaign and a "buffet of awesomesauce orbs."

You guys really have it in for players don't you?

I just have this mental image of a player on his knees before you, holding his crude bowl in his hands saying "Please sir, may I have another?" and the rest of the players gasping out loud in shock.

Wow. I sincerely, SINCERELY hope you guys are caught up in a bad case of online debate syndrome and you don't actually GM the way you are talking. Sincerely.

Nope. That's how we played pretty much since about 2008 ish. the last big haul magic item campaign we ran was Second Darkness, and the game died because everyone got bored, they had "too much stuff" and things were 'too easy'.

And EVEN THEN there were NO builds 'based' on owning a certain item.

They even managed to pull off robbing a magic shop at one point, well not completely, they interrupted someone else trying it and ultimately got a way with a few things.

AD I play an MMO occasionally which is pretty much set up where you almost HAVE to have a build based on magic items or you get seriously left behind, and even THEN you cant just wander into a magic shop and just buy the thing, MOST of the time it takes hours and hours of play (referred to as grinding) to run the same scenarios over and over again to gather the right ingredients, trade with other players, pay WAY more for the ones you cant find than they are worth (because people know these particular ingredients are popular for the right items) just t get the specific item you want.

That's certainly not set up to just wander in and "buy anything REASONABLE to make your character concept work" now is it?


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Pendagast and kmal2t (and anyone else who wants to play) let's get beyond the theorycrafting and attempts to rhetorically one-up each other. I'll lay out a situation for you and you tell me how you would actually rule on it. Then we can see how close we are to each other.

I have already described the magic item shops in my game, and how I typically deal with the availability of items. The level 8 party I am GMing recently returned from a fairly long series of encounters away from town and collected some loot, including gold, gems and some magic items. They returned to town and "went shopping". This included heading to the local magic shop.

Now, I know that you two oppose the concept of magic shops. But you've also said that you have ways of granting the odd boon to your players' characters too. So let's just go through what the players asked for and see how you would handle it.

The party came back to town with the following looted magic items they did not want, and attempted to trade or sell them. Due to an impending invasion and their being sent on an urgent mission, they only had one day to resupply. Here is what they had to sell/trade:

+1 flaming longspear
+1 bow
Robe of many things

They also had several thousand gold worth of coins and gems.

They wanted to do the following:

Upgrade a +1 sword to a +2 sword
Purchase an immovable rod
Upgrade plate armor from +1 to +2
Purchase a wand of cure light wounds

How would you respond to those requests?

(EDIT: the town in question is a fairly good sized town, some 15,000 people live in the town's taxable area. It's a major trading center with lots of goods moving through the town on a daily basis.)

one more time, im NOT opposed to magic shops.

anyway...one day is rough.
In my campaigns it's easy to sell magic items, everyone wants them they are rare, someone has the money, but not every tom dick and harry.

It would be unlikely they would find a single vendor with enough on hand cash to buy everything they want to sell on hand for cash.

However, looking for the wand of cure light wounds would be best done at the local temple, or possibly if they had alliances with the local military (like cressida croft in CotCT for example).

IF the particular vendor is a crafting type (which I would have had decided ahead of time) It's possible a trade plus some cash could be arranged.
If not, the upgrades might not be able to be gotten with in a day.
the immovable rod also likely might not be available within a day.

Ultimately with in a day, they should be able to unload the items they want to sell (by visiting enough places) place the orders for their upgrades/replacements and get the wand from the clergy/military in town.

I would roll up random magic items available so the vendor MIGHT have a suitable upgrade on hand as well as the temple and military armory. so they would all roll to see what was in stock.
After the proper role play and skill checks it's possible the PCs might come up dry and have to wait longer to get the items they want.
OR they might check the "black market" if anyone of them can make the right connections to see if anything 'Hot' is available. If the skill rolls come out right, I may chose to make the certain item either a) available or b) attainable within the time frame needed, provided the extra cost is covered.
So if the specific items (like the weapon/armor upgrade) were REALLY needed badly and right away, and the PCs were willing to use this route (and pay a lil extra) I would role play them being procured.
However, an upgrade to a sword and armor is likely just a clerical moving forward and not an immediate need, and as such , I'd have them place an order for their request, which would be available soon, so basically the next time they came back.

the immovable rod? If it wasn't randomly available, they would have to place the order for it's crafting or procurement.

So in short, with in one day, the PCs sold their spoils, acquired their wand and placed their orders with the vendor or other allies for the other things.


Pendagast, here's how I ruled.

1. The spear was too expensive for the party to sell it outright in one day. The magic shop just didn't have the cash on hand (or that's what he told them. Perhaps he just didn't want a demon spear in his shop). Instead they ended up (after some role playing and skill checks) at the royal wizard's place who was a collector of rare items. The spear in question was not any old +1 flaming longspear, it was a spear taken from a demon and that made it special enough for the royal wizard to have an interest in it. He happened to have an immovable rod and traded it for the spear. (Now this is a bit of a stretch since the party didn't know they wanted the immovable rod until the wizard made it one of three items he was willing to trade for the spear.)

2. The +1 sword upgrade to +2 was not possible to do in one day. The PC in question used diplomacy on a guard captain who had a +2 sword and managed to trade his +1 sword and an appropriate amount of cash (plus a tip) for the +2 sword. The guard agreed to upgrade to replace his sword. It is worth noting that the guard captain was aware that the party was heading on a dangerous quest and felt that the +2 sword was better going with the party since he could get a replacement (and make a bit of coin) in a couple of days.

3. The armor upgrade simply wasn't possible.

4. The CLW wand was purchased at the magic shop more or less like going to a music store and buying a new guitar.

This is a fairly typical way that magic stuff is handled in our campaigns.


Honestly it sounds EXACTLY the same.

In your case of the immoveable rod, you made it sound like that was something they specifically wanted.
In my case there would have been a magic shop, a temple and possibly the armory with stuff in it available to trade, and I would have had the vendor of the shop pretty much try to push the trades... simply because if she/he hasnt sold the things on hand, new stock will be more likely to move rather than having the same old stuff.

I always let the party roll, and then tell them what's "in the case"


Yeah, I had initially forgotten that they had gotten the rod that way, it was just something I remember them adding to their bag of awesomesauce orbs. But then I remembered that they had initially tried to sell the spear to the wizard and he basically said 'do I look like a merchant?' and instead rummaged around in his room coming back with some stuff including the rod.

THEN the party wanted ANOTHER immovable rod, but there wasn't one available, so they are stuck with a single rod.

I forgot about the robe and the bow, those they were able to sell with no problem.

I wonder about the "no magic shops in my game" people and how they deal with the party selling stuff. If there is enough demand for local people to come running with gold, why isn't there a shop nearby satisfying that obvious demand?

Silver Crusade

I actually see th crux of the whole argument. It's all down to being able to build the type of character you want, magic items and all. Now to be honest, 4th edition D&D is built better for that style of play because it encourages saying no and wishlists. While Pathfinder does expect PCs to get some kind of gear at certain levels, it's not as bad. The charts in the book are based on the monsters scaling with the PCs. I don't always run my games that way because I give out less magic items. I keep the monsters on par with the PCs even if that means throwing lower CR creatures at them.

Another problem I see is too many players reading the "guidelines" section on cities and magic items. Need I remind everyone that those are "guidelines" for DMs who don't want to have to create a ratio of magic items in certain sized cities- more of a quick reference really. Itddoesn't mean that every metropolis you walk into is supposed to have XY and Z because the book gave you some advice.

If you want a custom built PC then you need to sit down with your DM beforehand and find out if it's plausible. Don't walk into a campaign with your build idea expecting it to be catered to.

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