Is Power Attack or Piranah Strike a better option?
So when this cat ninja reaches +11 BAB, what is his full attack option?That's my question. Optimally whats my best case scenario?
BAB applies to iterative attacks on manufactured weapons only. So, if you're wielding a sword, with a BAB of +11, you can make three attacks at +11/+6/+1. Mixing with natural attacks lets you throw your natural attacks into the mix too, but they count as secondary natural weapons, regardless of their normal designation (so they'll always be at BAB -5, and adding 1/2 strength on damage). You also can't make a natural attack with the same limb that is wielding a weapon.
So, a character that has 2 claws and a bite, just as an example, with a BAB of +11 can:
Make 2 claw attacks, and a bite, all at +11 and dealing full strength damage.
Use a one-handed weapon for +11/+6/+1, adding full strength damage, and make a claw attack with the other hand and a bite, both of them at +6 and adding half strength on damage.
Obviously there's a lot of other combinations that could be done too, but hopefully that should illustrate things more or less?
So for this catfolk, until you get iterative attacks, you might be better off using claws for two attacks at full BAB.
Once you have iteratives, you could use one melee weapon and do +6/+1/+1, with the extra +1 being the claw in the other hand.
At +11, you can do +11/+6/+6/+1 (again the claw, being the extra +6). If you only used the claws, you would instead have +11/+11.
If you want to TWF, you'd not be making use of any claws (unless you somehow got extra arms), but could do the usual TWFing type of thing. Say, +9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1 (I think?).
I believe that should all be more or less accurate, though I might certainly be off on something.
Is Power Attack or Piranah Strike a better option?
Depends on if you're going Dex or Str focused. If you plan on weapon finesse, it's probably easier to pick up Piranha Strike (they pretty much do the same thing).
That said, if you want to TWF, you'll probably be using a light weapon in your off-hand. That's gonna have a -1/+1 exchange in hit and damage, which is not the greatest. Also, as a 3/4 BAB class, you might find yourself having difficulty hitting regularly, more so if you drop your to-hit for a bit of extra damage.
The good thing about ninjas is that their sneak attack can help out in the case of adding damage. By the time your BAB is high enough to add +4 or +8 damage from power attack/piranha strike (depending on if you're using a light or one-handed weapon), you will already be adding 8d6 sneak attack damage if circumstance permits, without the to-hit penalty.
So, they might be useful for adding a bit of extra damage, but they will have a tradeoff in your odds to actually land blows too.
Dark thank you!! You clarified a whole lot of things for me!! Much appreciated!
Right, but not until I can get them. Until that point it's just the two. That's more where I was confused. When TWF and all that stuff come into play.
I was crossing that with the natural attacks bab and iterative attacks. So mostly I was hung up on when to take what.
Hey Dark
Thanks for the explanation. Where in RAW do you read that? I would like to read it myself.
thanks
Primarily, it comes from the natural attack rules in the Bestiary, under Universal Monster Rules.
Natural Attacks: [snip]
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
There's more to the section including specifically what Primary and Secondary means for natural attacks, but that's the most relevant. You can check out the rest in the link above ^
That´s a good explanation Darkwolf!
Yeah it was super helpful!
So here's my next question.
So if I get the Claw Blades, they make my natural claw attacks count as light slashing weapons.
So in theory I should get iterative attacks. Do I get separate sets per claw attack?
And how much is twf going to effect this?
IIRC: It makes them into Manufactured Weapons and you lose the Natural Weapon benefits. Meaning to attack fully with them you need TWF feats.
That's what I figured.
But I get iteratives for each claw correct?
You get iterative attacks. If you want both claws you need TWF, ITWF, & GTWF Feats.
Makes sense, that was my understanding.
Thanks Aza!
Thanks all of you for helping me figure this out!! Was an outstanding help!
Wow, this is a pretty interesting thread, given that my current backup character is a ninja. Too bad I came into things pretty late.
BerserkerRed, it's sounding like your best option is to go with natural attacks until you get iterative attacks, then take TWF and acquire some claws.
Earlier in the thread you asked about the deadly claw rogue talent. I think you get that anyway- ninjas get poison use at level 1. Swing it by your DM. I'm not sure what RAW says about poison and natural attacks. You'll definitely want to do it when you get claws though. In fact, you may want to take the Rogue Talent: Swift Poison if you want to capitalize on that. (You'd want the alchemy skill and possibly the Master Alchemist feat to take full advantage.)
Something to keep in mind- ninja is a 3/4 BAB class. You'll have a bit of trouble hitting things, so the -2 TWF won't always be a good idea. That said, vanishing trick means you'll be getting a few rounds of flatfooted AC every day, so swing away. And nothing says you *have* to use both claws on a high AC opponent.
In building my ninja, I ran into feat/trick constraints pretty quick. You pretty much want to build your ninja with two things in mind. (Example- TWF and stealth, with classic infiltration techniques in mind. Or TWF and cool ki tricks, with versatility in mind.) Either way, you're going to have devote at least a couple feats/tricks to improving your weapon's to-hit. This is where those claws will be nice, because by the time you need them you should (hopefully) be able to swing making them masterwork at a minimum.
Also, I'd recommend maxing UMD and acquiring a wand of (insert low level touch spell here) reasonably quick. This gives you a range option, and a good way to get a (vanished) sneak attack against opponents with high AC.
For my character, I decided to spend a trick on getting the Minor Magic Rogue Talent and getting a 3/day ray of frost attack. But that had more to do with RP choices than optimization. (He's the long-lost brother of a ray blasting sorc, so 'it runs in the family.')
Being a dex based build, you want weapon finesse and improve initiative (because you REALLY want to go first, right?). If you decide to use weapon training as a feat instead of a trick (and I'd recommend it if you can fit it in), you're going to run out of feats pretty quick. In fact...
1: Feat- Weapon Finesse (Claws)
2: Trick- Vanishing Trick (Make sure you can GET that sneak attack before you increase the damage on it)
3: Feat- Improved Initiative (Also, spend a trait on +2 Init)
4: Trick- Vicious Claws
5: Feat- Weapon Focus (Claws)
6: Trick- ???
7: Feat- ???
8: Trick- ???
^Iterative Attacks kick in, have your claws ready
9: Feat- Two Weapon Fighting
10: Trick- Invisible Blade (Um... yeah)
11: Feat- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
So really, you have one feat (level 7) and 2 tricks (6 and 8) to spend on something that's not TWF oriented. You could go...
Poisoner
...6- Rogue Talent: Swift Poison
...7- Master Alchemist
...8- Rogue Talent: Lasting Poison
Ki tricks
...6- Forgotten Trick
...7- Extra Ki
...8- Rogue Talent: Ki Pool (can you *do* this? Otherwise it's whatever ki trick you like most)
Pure Combat
...6- Combat Trick (Combat Reflexes)
...7- Catfolk Racial Feat: Black Cat (Re-rolls are awesome)
...8- Rogue Talent: Assault Leader (when you miss, a flanking ally makes a single attack)
Stealth/Hidden Weapons
...6- Hidden Weapons
...7- Quick Draw (check with GM about Hidden Weapons synergy)
...8- Fast Stealth / Rogue Talent: Underhanded
Focus on Sneak Attacks
...6- Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak (all 1's rolled become 2's)
...7- Gang Up (if 2 fighter types) / Teamwork feat? (There are some sweet ones)
...8- Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense / RT: Befuddling Strike
Social Skills
...6- Rogue Talent: Charmer (Diplomacy) / Honeyed Words (Same, but Bluff)
...7- Plenty of social/disguise feats to choose from
...8- Rogue Talent: Coax Information (Party Face- good with either in 6) / Trick: Sudden Disguise (Infiltration Specialist- take HW in 6)
Something Else
...6- ???
...7- ???
...8- ???
Needless to say, there's tons you could do. I really like the catfolk racial feat Claw Pounce but it would mean using your level 7 feat on Nimble Striker (useless for you unless you hold initiative to charge immediately after your group's primary fighter does) and keeping the sprinter racial trait instead of taking the climber trait (which is better, IMO). On the other hand, if you go the 'pure combat' route and work out charging strategies with your group then it would be totally viable. That'd put Claw Pounce as your level 16 feat, as you'd meet the last prereq (BAB +10) at level 15. Dang, that's a long wait.
Regardless, you're going to want to make heavy use of acrobatics to get to a flanking position, and possibly be the party face. You know, all the standard Rogue stuff.
Anyway, I hope this has given you a few more ideas.
-Myst
That actually gives me a whole helluva lot to think about!! Thank you so much!!
My original intent was to do the Claw Pounce set up. But, if I take the Claw Blades to get iteratives, do I lose the ability to take Claw Pounce, being that it requires claws in order to make the attack?
Hmmm... not sure.
My impulse would be to say "technically... going strictly by RAW... yes." But as a DM I'd let it go.
On the other hand, these claws were pretty much built for the catfolk, so you'd think they'd get some kind of racial adaptation/familiarity with them.
I'd swing it by your GM.
Had some additional thoughts about pounce after I posted that, and I'm wondering if that feat isn't something of a trap for your build. I mean, the soonest you can get it is level 16. (Are you sure your game is going to last that long?) By the time you're that far along, you'll have so much ninja stuff and magic gear that "running up to a person and full attacking him" would probably be sub-optimal. I know with my character, I'll be taking him down the "ninja are to be unseen" route. (Then again, I'm opting not to go TWF so...)
Seems kind of a bummer to wait for so long just to get a feat that probably won't be your best option by then.
Anyway, please post your full character and planned advancement when you have him. Doing all that work on possibilities for yours made me reconsider some choices for my own. I can always use more comparison and inspiration.
Awesome, thanks for the input. That's kind of what I was figuring on doing.
Will do!!
So I basically planned on taking your advice for the most part.
1: Feat- Weapon Finesse (Claws)
2: Trick- Vanishing Trick
3: Feat- Improved Initiative
4: Trick- Vicious Claws
5: Feat- Weapon Focus (Claws)
6: Trick - Fast Stealth
7: Feat - Nimble Striker
8: Trick - Shadow Clone
9: Feat- Two Weapon Fighting
10: Trick- Invisible Blade
11: Feat- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12: Trick - Assassinate
13: Feat - Disorienting Maneuvers
14: Trick - Advanced Rogue - Crippling Strike
15: Feat - Claw Pounce (Does this let me get all my iteratives? It says I get a full attack with my claws, I would think yes, in which case it's more viable)
16: Trick - Forgotten Trick
17: Feat - Black Cat
18: Trick - Ghost Step
19: Feat - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
20: Trick - Shadow Split
So I haven't 100% decided on the order just yet but that's what I'm looking at.
Holy Crap you are waiting for Assassinate!?!?
So switch Assasinate with Invisible Blade? Thought for sure stealth would make Assasinate better.
Cant get Assasinate until 10 though.
So switch Assasinate with Invisible Blade? Thought for sure stealth would make Assasinate better.
Cant get Assasinate until 10 though.
My immediate impulse was to say "Invisible blade is the must-take of level 10" but I suppose there are a few times when you'd choose something else. Are you envisioning your character as an assassin? (If you are, I'll point out the Assassin PrC class has a mechanically different assassinate technique, and it may be better to multiclass.)
Invisible blade will help you more often in general battle than assassinate will. That said, Assassinate is pretty neat and I'd totally take it as a level 12 trick. You might want to fit evasion in there somewhere too if you can find anything you're not sure on keeping.
Yeah, Claw Pounce's "full attack" means you get all your iteratives with both hands. I'd double check with the GM that the metal claws can be used like natural attack claws with that feature, but otherwise you're good.
Your feats look solid. Level 13 is your post-10 flex spot, and you might choose to switch something else in when you get close to it, but I see no problems with disorienting maneuvers.
I think that by the time you get to high level you'll be reconsidering some of your late ninja trick picks. Shadow split is fun, but it's more 'avoid a battle' type misdirection than anything else. By the time you're high level, you'll be able to do the same thing with UMD and a magic wand of Major Image. Forgotten trick is cool (I'm using it on my guy), but it only applies to 'normal' (below level 10) tricks, not 'master' (level 10+) tricks. You'd be able to do a lot through magic items by the time you get up to 16.
I'd push Ghost Step to 16, and use 18 and 20 to choose the two most mouthwatering Rogue Talents if none of the other Master Tricks have a strong pull for you.
It seems like his preferred battle tactics are going to be:
1. Win Initiative
2. Shoot an initial volley with a bow/wand
(Or: If the party fighter has a high Init, hold action and go to 3b.)
3a. Use invisibility trick to keep pelting from the sidelines
3b. Drop/pocket the range weapon and follow the charging fighter using acrobatics to keep you safe from AoO
4. Flank and full attack
Or...
1. Lose initiative or make a perception roll and know the bad guy is there in advance
2. Invisibility trick and sneak behind someone
3. Full attack, get your sneak attack damage, and pray the Fighter is charging to your rescue because now you're alone in melee combat
(Obviously, some party tactics discussions are going to be required before you start risking your hide.)
What are you choosing for traits? I'll repeat my recommendation for a +2 initiative as one of them. How do you envision this character acting outside of battle? What are his skills?
I like the Ninja Assassinate better than the Assassin version, as it requires 3 rounds and Ninja's only requires 1.
I think I might switch DM for Evasion, like you mentioned probably serve me better.
I'll probably drop Forgotten Trick like you said, that late in the game yeah probably not going to help so much.
I'll also re-look at Shadow Split.
I chose the +2 to Initiative like you mentioned. I'm also taking the one that gives you +1 to Will save as it's pretty horrible right now.
Most of the time outside combat he's the sneaky assassin type and basically picks up some of the Rogue assignments, like picking locks.
So high Acrobatics, Stealth, Disable Device, standard stuff.
Ninja's Assassinate is superior to Assassin's Death Attack.
Looks good.
Evasion is a Master Ninja Trick, not a feat. You can still replace disorienting maneuvers for it, but you'll do it by taking the Extra Rogue Talent feat. (There's a Rogue Talent that lets you take a Ninja Trick instead. Circuitous, but it gets the job done.)
Turning to the role play part of the character, Cat Folk is going to be interesting. That race is almost begging for a 'female sex kitten' personality that makes lots of double entendres and purrs. (Eartha Kit, anyone?) On the male catfolk side, you could go with a standard cat personality (regal/disdainful alternating with sneaky/playful in unpredictable turns).
Lots of RP potential there.
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I think the unarmed combat mastery ninja tricks are being underrated here. Getting Imp UAS & monk lvl -4 uas dmg progression can be useful, especially when using your claws to do the unarmed strikes in order to get those d8 sneak attacks from the Vicious Claws trick. Or mixing regular Unarmed strikes with d6 sneak attacks, followed by claw attacks as secondary nat weapon attacks with d8 sneaks on them.
The thought had occurred to me, but I wasn't sure if you could use natural weapons as an unarmed attack. Plus, the character is going to be getting claws at level 8. Are they a monk weapon?
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The thought had occurred to me, but I wasn't sure if you could use natural weapons as an unarmed attack. Plus, the character is going to be getting claws at level 8. Are they a monk weapon?
The claws would not be monk weapons, as I understand it.
Since you're a ninja, most of your damage is coming from sneak attacks. Uins claws as secondary attacks in addition to your regular attacks gives you more opportunities to sneak attack. Putting claw blades on may not be the best option, since it changes them from natural attacks to manufactured weapon attacks. AOMF to enchant your Unarmed + natural attacks may be a better option for you. That way you can full attack, & add your two claw attacks on the end for more sneak attacks. With the recent rulling that one can UAS with the same limb more than once, if your gm lets you do unarmed strikes with your claws, you get the enhanced unarmed strike dmg from unarmed combat mastery, & the d8 sneak attacks from using claws. If not, you're still in good shape.
That would work. It's a completely different build (involving multiclassing) but it'd work.
I guess the only thing I'd be wary of is that an Amulet of Mighty Fists is so gosh-darn expensive.
I had thought of the UAS set up. But it seemed like opening another can of worms that I just wasn't ready for lol.
but that doesn't mean it doesn't warrent a good looking at. Thanks for clarifying some of my missgivings though! You answered a lot of questions I had about that.
The other drawback for that is multiclassing which I wasn't super sure I wanted to do.
Also, maybe, 14 - Ghost Step, 16 - Evasion, 18 - Crippling Strike?
Well personally, I'd leave it at 14- Ghost Step, 16- Evasion, 18 & 20- I'll decide when I get there.
Trying to look at the really high levels from level 1 is a generally bad idea unless you've got a couple characters worth of experience in level 15 to 20 games. The game plays differently as you increase in level. There are big shifts in ability as the party wizard reaches certain levels. Whose to say what you'll value by the time you get there?
You've got 1 to 15 sorted. You're good. :)
LOL very valid point. Thanks Mystic for all the insight, you've been a huge help!
I am pretty sure you do not need to take weapon finesse (claws) just weapon finesse and it applies to all finessable weapons. If I am wrong we have been using it wrong for years. Also are claws viable for weapon finesse? The claw blades would (as they are light weapons) but I don't know about natural attacks.
Yeah Weapon Finesse does work for Nat Weapons. I belive it says in the description of Weapon Finesse.
Also, you are correct you don't need to designate the weapon like weapon focus. It auto applies to all light/natural weapons.