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This question seems to be perennial since the introduction of Ultimate Magic, and to date does not have an official ruling outside of Pathfinder Society Organized Play. To make the the arguement as clear as possible, I have broken it down step by step, and included all the relevent rules, as well as the citation to help you locate the rules. My question is simply this:
Is the arguement below correct?
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Issue: Can you select both the Wildblooded and the Crossblooded Archetypes?
Rules:
You cannot select more than one archetype that modifies the same Class Feature.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.The Class Feature in question here is Bloodline. This should not be conflated to bloodline arcana or bloodline powers.
Class features . . . Bloodlines.Bloodline arcana and bloodline arcana are actually subsets of the Class Feature, Bloodline.
Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities.
The Crossblooded Archetype chooses two Bloodlines, and builds a custom Bloodline by selecting the powers she finds most appealing from each, within the constraints laid out in the Archetype. This ability further grants the bloodline feats, and access to skills, and bloodline arcana from both Bloodlines.
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines. The sorcerer may gain access to the skills, feats, and some of the powers of both bloodlines she is descended from, but at the cost of reduced mental clarity and choice (see Drawbacks).The Wildblooded Archetype alters the Archetype's base Bloodline by replacing at least one bloodline power, and at least one bloodline arcana.
A wildblooded sorcerer has a mutated version of a more common bloodline, with one arcana and at least one bloodline power that are different from those of an unmutated bloodline. When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline, then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline. Use the normal bloodline’s class skill, bonus spells, and bonus feats, and the mutated bloodline’s bloodline arcana. Use the normal bloodline’s bloodline powers, except when the mutated bloodline replaces one of those powers.
Analysis:
It is clear by the plain language found in Ultimate Combat that you may not select two Archetypes that alter the same Class Feature, and that is not contested in any of the various posts on this matter that I have read.The Crossblooded Archetype alters the Bloodline Class Feature. The Crossblooded Sorcerer receives the bloodline arcana of both bloodlines. Thus the bloodline has been altered. The Crossblooded Sorcerer receives access to the feats of both bloodlines. Again, the Bloodline Class Feature has been altered. The Bloodline gains the Class Skills granted by both bloodlines, altering the bloodline. Finally, the Crossblooded Sorcerer gains access to the bloodline powers of both bloodlines, the fourth alteration to the Bloodline Class Feature.
The Wildblooded Archetype specifically and expressly calls out that the Archetype alters the Bloodline by replacing at least one bloodline power and at least one bloodline ability. Note that replacing a subset is an alteration of the Bloodline Class Feature, not removal or replacement of a Class Feature because, as mentioned above, bloodline arcana and bloodline powers are subsets of the Bloodline Class Feature.
Conclusion:
The Crossblooded Archetype alters the Sorcerer's Class Feature, Bloodline.
The Wildblooded Archetype alters the Sorcerer's Class Feature, Bloodline.
Because both Archetypes alter the same Class Feature (Bloodline), and as such the two Archetypes are exclusive of one another.
Please note that you are free to rule however you wish at your own table, and just because the two are incompatible by the rulesl as laid out above, does not mean you cannot rule them compatible at your table. This is a question of rule, not opinion or house rules.
FAQ'd. And for reference, I believe that the argument as presented is correct and that the two are not compatible by RAW. However, as a DM I would entertain a player's request to combine the two and approve it if they had a good character concept based on it and weren't just "trying to get these two abilities which work really well together."
My 2cp - hopefully we can get an official ruling. Though the Paizo guys are busy, so it may take some time.
I don't see a reason why they should not work together.Even if a player wants "those two abilities that work really well togheter" whats the problem?Isn't that the motivation for most optimization and leads to some unconventional builds?
Wildblooded are just bloodlines one can call it an archetype but it clearly isn't.
Wildblooded are just bloodlines one can call it an archetype but it clearly isn't.
I refer you to Page 70, of Ultimate Magic: "WILDBLOODED (ARCHETYPE)"
The all caps is courtesy of the book (Copy.Paste) not me.
Impressive, I just looked it up and....... I'll be damned but you are right.But still,I stated elsewhere that it looks to me that this is just the devs being too lazy to write up completely new bloodlines and instead calling it an archetype and I think I will stick with that assesment.
people deciding to ignore the rules doesn't mean the rules need a FAQ.
(although I guess this concept is persistent enough that it wouldn't hurt to have one)
besides the reasons mentioned, it also isn't legal because cross-blooded is specifically altering the bloodline power sub-set of the bloodline class feature, so that instead of getting the higher level abilities, you can pick a lower-level one that you didn't pick before. totally novel functionality there, over-riding the normal structure of the class feature.
people deciding to ignore the rules doesn't mean the rules need a FAQ.
(although I guess this concept is persistent enough that it wouldn't hurt to have one)
besides the reasons mentioned, it also isn't legal because cross-blooded is specifically altering the bloodline power sub-set of the bloodline class feature, so that instead of getting the higher level abilities, you can pick a lower-level one that you didn't pick before. totally novel functionality there, over-riding the normal structure of the class feature.
Duly noted, so we now have that the Crossblooded alters the Bloodline class feature by:
1) Altering Bloodline Class Skills.2) Altering Bloodline Feats.
3) Altering Bloodline Arcana.
4) Altering Bloodline Spells.
5) Altering selection method for Bloodline Spells.
6) Altering selection method for Bloodline Powers.
All per explanation of the Archetype found on Page Pages 69 and 70 of Ultimate Magic.
Wildblooded alters the Bloodline class feature by:
1) Altering at least one Bloodline Arcana.
2) Altering at least one Bloodline Power.
Both per definition of the Archetype found on Page 70 of Ultimate Magic.
I guess by RAW you're correct.
RAI I'm not so sure. Personally I see no problem allowing it. But if you're the GM and don't want to allow it, then don't.
It all depends on how you view the wild-blooded archetype. You can totally look at it as wild-blooded giving you an alternate version of an existing bloodline (i.e., the wild-blooded arcane bloodline is effectively a completely new bloodline called sage).
Cross-blooded lets you choose two bloodlines and gain abilities from both.
If you look at it that way, they are completely compatible.
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Well, we know that Paizo INTENTIONALLY chose to write up Wildblooded as an Archetype and NOT as Sub-Bloodlines akin to Sub-Domains.
(unless Evil Keebler Elves hyponotized them to do so, and they couldn't change it after the file went to the printer, and they are too ashamed about the Keebler Elf incident to cop to it later)
It's not an issue of laziness, doing that isn't any more difficult, they could have Copy/Pasted some of the relevant text.
So I just don't put any faith in claims that by INTENT Paizo meant for Wildblooded to work like Sub-Domains,
when Paizo intentionally passed on the opportunity to do exactly that.
If you want to say 'I want it to work this way, and that's how I roll in my games', that's GREAT!,
there's plenty of Paizo rules which I may not like and may change wholesale based on my preferences,
but trying to conflate it as some RAW/RAI issue isn't really convincing or demonstrative of 'Rules Questions' credibility.
Straight up: Paizo's INTENT for some things does not always correspond to my DESIRE, (or everybody at Paizo)
but I don't conflate those two things by making specious RAI/RAW (non)arguments in order to leech off of Paizo's aura of authority.
Paizo's developers aren't lazy, evil, or fraternizers of Keebler Elves, they just don't always agree with every preference of mine.
I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. Discipline is the key to conformity and it is important that we learn not to question authority at an early age.
"You can look at it as..." or you can read the rules.
I can look at the Barbarian as a Fighter with Weapon Training.
Does that make that topic approriate for a Rules Questions thread?
A Wildblooded Sorc STILL HAS the normal Sorceror BL, and are still gaining things from it, such as Class Skills and spells,
and any effect applicable to the normal Sorceror Bloodline that you still have, still applies to you.
It's not an issue of laziness, doing that isn't any more difficult, they could have Copy/Pasted some of the relevant text.
So I just don't put any faith in claims that by INTENT Paizo meant for Wildblooded to work like Sub-Domains,
when Paizo intentionally passed on the opportunity to do exactly that.
To be fair, a very simple "This power replaces the [____]" or "This power otherwise functions as and replaces the Sorcerer's Bloodline," like pretty much all other archetypes have would make it extremely clear whether they were meant to be compatible or not.
But... Paizo passed on doing that too, which can just as easily point to the idea that they should stack as your example points to the idea they shouldn't.
Don't get me wrong, I expect that they probably aren't meant to be compatible, but it's just as possible that they are. I can see it as: all Crossblooded does is give you an extra bloodline, while Wildblooded actually makes changes to the bloodline(s). By that logic, it's at least possible for interpretation either way.
Anyway, I FAQ'd this awhile ago when I first read it. Just thought I'd chime in.
(Just as a side topic, if they were compatible, or if I simply allowed them as a GM, I'd actually probably say wildblooded would alter both of your bloodlines, whether you wanted it to or not. Two normal, or two mutated, but no mixing a regular one with a wild one.)
You can't take Archetypes which replace or MODIFY the same class abilities.
Modify implies that only part of the ability is being changed, not the whole of it.
The rule doesn't say 'or modify the same part(s) of the same class ability'.
maybe this rule is evil keebler elf inspired malarky, but it is the rule there is.
i know i've seen james jacobs comment on paizo's general approach to these things,
and their approach is NOT that each and every crunch item / archetype needs to be 100% mix and matchable,
they consider archetypes as already being very special, and if two don't work together, so be it.
now, if that cuts against your sensibilities,
it may be a clue that you might want to houserule something rather than follow Paizo's RAW.
I realize not all archetypes are mixable, and I'm certainly not against that design. Like I said, I'm of the opinion that the two probably don't mix in this case, and it really doesn't bother me.
I'm simply pointing out the reason that I can consider it to be ambiguous, by RAW. Nowhere does Crossblooded specify that it is actually modifying things. You have an expanded list of options to choose from, but they are all pretty much the same as normal. Everything that Wildblooded would MODIFY, as you so kindly capitalized, on a regular bloodline is still available for modification when you've got two bloodlines instead.
That is where I believe the confusion comes from, and why I could see it being interpreted in either way, so I think an official answer to this would be nice. If I don't like the answer, then yeah, I can certainly houserule it, but I really don't have any reason to do so. I'm fine with the RAW in this case, whatever that may be, I just don't think it's as clear as it could be.
as i wrote, it is giving a choice to class features when one wasn't there before. (for BL powers)
it is modifying the arcana feature to grant two arcana.
i mean, would you not consider a fighter archetype that let you apply weapon training to two groups every time it came up to not be an archetype that is modifying the weapon training ability? and thus incompatable with other archetypes that also modify it?
modifications of abilities are not as clearly called out as replacements, this isn't something unique to cross-blooded:
Weapon Training (Ex): As the fighter class feature, but the bonuses only apply when wielding two-handed melee weapons.
no 'this replaces...' statement or an equivalent explicit statement of 'this modifies...'
meaning we are left to apply the logical/dictionary meaning of 'modifies X class feature',whereby if the functionality of X class feature is changed by the archetype, it is modified by the archetype.
if you don't think cross-blooded modifies the arcana or bloodline power abilities, then you should be totally happy with applying the vanilla sorceror rules for arcana and bloodline powers to a cross-blooded sorceror, right? if not, then it is probably modifying those class abilities. the archetype COULD have granted totally new, uniquely named class abilities not replacing anything, and just happening to grant powers granted by the secondary bloodline's arcana/BL powers, which would have been the approach that doesn't modify those class features. but that approach wasn't taken.
Rather than explain the rules again, I will simply ask these questions:
1) Why are you taking the crossblooded archetype? If you want the bloodline powers of just the _______ bloodline, and nothing more, no modifications, why are you taking an archetype?
2) As above, but with wildblooded, if you just want the plain _____ bloodline, why take the archetype to get __________?
if you answer because I want x bloodline power, x arcana, x feat, etc that would not be granted by the bloodline without taking the archetype, then clearly, you want the change, and the change is what makes the two exclusive of one another.
You are the one who does not seem to understand so heres the deal:
Wildlooded Bloodlines are exactly like other Bloodlines this "archetype"
effectively creates new Bloodlines wich are not stronger than the regular ones.There is not more "change" involved if you make a Wildlooded/Bloodline Sorcerer than when making a Bloodline/Bloodline Sorcerer so why even bother insisting on this ruling?
I understand that following a set of rules saves you from having to make decisions but,in this case,it might just be helpful to think about in in a less dogmatic way and not tell other people "youre doing it wrong".
<Not meant as an attack against you, just food for thought.
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You can view the bloodlines however you want at home games. This isn't a discussion about home games. It is a discussion about the actual rules.
The rule for wildblooded, an archetype, explicitly states that the bloodline powers and bloodline arcana are altered. The actual rules call the bloodlines a mutation, which is a change by definition.
Definition of MUTATION
1: a significant and basic alteration : change
So, no matter how you look at the rules, the bloodline CHANGES. the bloodline is the CLASS FEATURE, and the same applies to crossblooded.
Since they BOTH CHANGE BLOODLINE, a class feature, they are exclusive.
The point is to have the RULE understood and formalized for purpose of non-home games. When you go to a con to play, you should know what to expect, for example. When you move from City X to City Y and join their local group, you should know what to expect. Just because the interpretation as written upsets you, or ruffles your feathers, it does not change the fact that it is the rule.
Again, rule however you like at your home table, this is a search for a clarification on the actual rule.
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So how does this mesh up with the rules on the Quingong Monk, which replaces several abilities at will, but stacks with other archetypes that may or may not replace those other abilities?
From what has been said there, so long as you do not use Quingong to change something the other archetype has changed, you're good.
For this, wildblooded changes a bloodline ability, and leaves all the other aspects of the character alone.
The crossblooded gives you 2 bloodline abilities, so changing -one of them- and not the other, would fall under the same limits as the Quingong Monk.
If it's good one way, it's good the other. You can't rule differently for each class.
Lets examine your question by starting in the same place as you always start when examining which archetypes stack, "which class features(s) does this archetype replace or alter.
Step 1: look up Monk in the Pathfinder Core Rule Book, (PP 56 et. seq.) and list the Class Features:
1) Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, 2) AC Bonus, 3) Flurry of Blows, 4) Unarmed Strike, 5) Bonus Feats, 6) Stunning Fist, 7) Evasion, 8) Fast Movement, 9) Maneuver Training, 10) Ki Pool, 11) Slow Fall, 12) High Jump, 13) Purity of Body, 14) Wholeness of Body, 15) Improved Evasion, 16) Diamond Body, 17) Abundant Step, 18) Diamond Soul, 19) Quivering Palm, 20) Timeless Body, 21) Tongue of the Sun and Moon, 22) Empty Body, 23) Perfect Self.
Wow. That is a lot of Class Features. . . 23.
Step 2: look up the Quiggong Monk in Ultimate Magic (pp 51-52) and we read:
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"Ki Power: A qinggong monk can select a . . ." Please note the word CAN.
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Oh, look a new class feature, does it say it replaces or alters anything. . . nope. But it's individual abilities CAN replace, at the players option.
Does this say you must? No. Does it say you shall? No. Does it just wholesale change without any player option (outside of chosing the archetype)? No.
It gives the option. You can choose to say yes or no to each replacement. Each of the Quiggong monk's abilities listed under Ki Powers is permissive, or to put it another way, optional.
You can still, however; run afoul of the rules. For example, if you should chose to play a Flowing Monk (Ultimate Combat, page 58) You lose the option to swap out some abilities because they are replaced by the Flowing Monk Archetype.
Flowing Dodge (Ex): At 3rd level, a f lowing monk gains
a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each enemy adjacent to him,
up to a maximum bonus equal to his Wisdom modifier
(minimum 1). This ability replaces fast movement.
Notice how this ability replaces fast movement? Now you can no longer select any Quiggong ability that also replaces or alters fast movement. Why? Because if you didn't lose that option, then the two archetypes would alter the same class feature, and would therefore be exclusive of one another, just like WIldblooded and Crossblooded sorcerers.
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1) Wildblooded:
Use the normal bloodline’s
class skill, bonus spells, and bonus feats, and the mutated
bloodline’s bloodline arcana. Use the normal bloodline’s
bloodline powers, except when the mutated bloodline
replaces one of those powers.
Is this language permissive or strict? I see no indication of permissive language. It is thus strict. You have no option. You have to replace the bloodline abilities as per the rule.
2) Crossblooded:
Class Skill: A crossblooded sorcerer receives the bonus
class skill from both of her bloodlines. If these are the
same skill, this does not grant any additional benefit.
Note the lack of permissive language yet again. Also notice that Class Skills are a function of the Bloodline Class feature. Bloodline altered.
Bloodline Arcana: A crossblooded sorcerer gains the
bloodline arcana of both her bloodlines.
Again, no permissive language. Again, Bloodline Arcana is a function of Bloodline class feature, Bloodline altered.
Oh, look, yet again, we are in the same place: Class Feature altered. Once again, for the cheap seats, these are exclusive of one another.
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So, to contracict your statement about you can't rule differently for each class. I am not. Quiggong is a permissive, optional, take it or leave it, alteration to almost every feature.
Although the Crossblooded Archetype has some take it or leave it alterations, it also has strict replacements and alterations. Thus, the Quiggong is good with anything, so long as you don't replace features altered or removed by other Archetypes.
The Crossblooded and the Wildblooded still, no matter how many times people complain, whine, or argue, replace or alter the same class feature. If you disagree, please click on FAQ.
I am begging Sean K. Reynolds to weigh in.
the archetype alters bloodline arcana once, allowing it to carry the abilities from two bloodlines!!
and it says if both of the BL grant you the same abilitie they dont stack, you need to choose one of both and it would be silly take the same abilitie because it will grant you no benefits
Arizhel, why did you not bother to post our interpretations in the OP along with yours?
I'm guessing it's because you don't care about finding out the truth of the matter so much as hoping to prove that you're right.
Not cool dude. Not cool at all.
I posted my interpretation, because I have faith in all of you to post your own.
Fair enough (and we did), still I fear the designers may not read much past the opening post. They'll read your (lengthy) argument, then possibly decide that, that's the way it should be without really even considering (or realizing that their are) alternative interpretations of the rules.
Hopefully, that will not be the case at all.
I would also like to know whether it would be allowed. Purely because the wildblooded is more of a bloodline in itself than an actual archetype. For the current time I say they don't stack but do want to be wrong there are some cool things I could do.
This is the typical arguement. If the wildblooded archetype simply gave access to bloodlines, then there would be no issue. In fact, it would probably be easier to clarify the language to allow use than to clarify the language the halts the use.
I'd like to know the answer to this as well. In no place in cross-blooded does it say it replaces or modifies anything. It simply let's you pick and choose from each bloodline similar to gestalt rules. It doesn't modify anything in and of itself. The bloodline arcana bit doesn't modify anything either. They're both the same. They both apply at the same time. Again, nothing is replaced or modified. It's no different than having two stacking bonuses. They neither negate nor depend on each other.
I would also like to know whether it would be allowed. Purely because the wildblooded is more of a bloodline in itself than an actual archetype. For the current time I say they don't stack but do want to be wrong there are some cool things I could do.This is the typical arguement. If the wildblooded archetype simply gave access to bloodlines, then there would be no issue. In fact, it would probably be easier to clarify the language to allow use than to clarify the language the halts the use.Let me ask you a question or two:
If you have one archetype that replaces the 1st level bloodline power, and another archetype that replaces the bloodline class skill.. can you combine the two archetypes?
Likewise if you have an archetype that lets you choose either the normal 1st level bloodline power or another power, can you combine this with the first archetype above that replaces the 1st level bloodline power? This second question is along the lines of the monk archetype precedent.
-James
I was just looking into this for a possible character. As an example: I was looking at possibly taking the Tattooed Sorcerer Archetype, which replaces the first-level bloodline power of whatever bloodline you happened to choose with a tattoo familiar.
In conjunction I was possibly looking at taking the Wildblooded Sage (Arcane) Archetype; this replaces the Arcane Bond provided as the first-level Arcane bloodline power.
The first replaces the first-level bloodline power (note that it does not have to replace Arcane Bond - just whatever is in that first-level slot); the second replaces the specific Arcane Bond ability (which happens to occupy the first-level slot of the bloodline).
Strict RAW, I would probably rule against myself doing this. RAI, I would probably allow it, and consider the individual abilities or slots of the bloodline to be the deciding factor, and not simply an alteration to bloodline period be the bar.
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Maybe this question can be revisited now that the development team is taking a more active approach to quickly resolving rules questions? I got this very situation cropping up in a game which starts next week. :-/
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rai
Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?
No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.
Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.
It doesn't replace the same class feature though. So its entirely possible and reasonable, just not allowed by FAQs now. Weird.
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It doesn't replace the same class feature though. So its entirely possible and reasonable, just not allowed by FAQs now. Weird.The archetype rules don't say "replace," they say "replace or alter." Adding features to something counts as "altering."
Not what I meant actually.
The way I've always seen it as taking crossblooded lets you pick between two bloodlines, taking wild blooded changes the arcana and powers you pick from. I don't see where the overlap is. Which is what I meant in my post, that its weird to see "The answer is no, but its possible to do" and that I don't see where they replace or alter the same thing.
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Official Rules Response
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If a fighter archetype changed the "bravery" class feature so that you also gained the bravery bonus against charm effects as well as fear effects, that is still *altering* the class feature. Even if it let you pick whether you got the bonus against fear or against charms, that is *altering* the class feature.
Crossblooded doesn't just let you pick between two bloodlines: you get the bloodline arcana from *both* bloodlines. It is most definitely an alteration to the standard class feature (which is "pick one bloodline, get its bloodline arcana").
While we're on the subject of over-arching 'one ability' abilities, are Bardic Performances and a Gunslinger's Deed classified as 'one ability' too for the purposes of archetypes? So that replacing a performance or a deed invalidates any other archetype that replaces (or alters!) a performance / deed?
This is a question that's asked somewhat often (although not as often as the wildblooded / crossblooded question).