Witches SUCK! (or not)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Because that particular argument really doesn't belong in this thread, I thought I'd start a new one.

Personally, I've been playing one from level 2 to level 12 (so far), and I've been having a great deal of fun with the class, though I will freely admit it's short of ULTIMATE COSMIC POWAAH compared to the Wizard.

And now, for the dissent:

Grayfeather wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:


... you've never played a witch, have you.

No, because i mentioned its an awful class. You don't have to eat poo to know its not going to taste good. I've seen other try and fail.

RumpinRufus wrote:
Witch is an amazing class, .. Evil Eye, Slumber, and Misfortune are all amazing abilities, and you can use them all day, every day.

So can a wizard, cleric, druid, most every other class. We dont need to do it all day cause round 3 everyones laying on the ground. Thanks for playing.

RumpinRufus wrote:
Funny you mention getting two domains and specialist, because those are exactly the things that are kneecapped by going Mystic Theurge. The Mystic Theurge gains spellcasting levels only for spells, not for these class abilities.

Riiighht, but they still have them. The witch has none. Swift action teleport at 1st level, yes please. Domains that let me make someone take the lessor of two d20 rolls and my allies take the better, sure I'll take that. And i get to channel energy? Awesome.

Quote:
But go Witch instead? For what, a few low DC hexes and a piss-poor spell list (no Heal, Harm, Time stop, Wish, etc etc

...

I don't think you can stack the Witch spell list to either wizard or cleric. I put it on par with the magus list. This means you've got on par healing with cleric without the channel or true res. The offensive spells arent that offensive that drops off quick. Limited buffing spells but thats offset with some nice debuffs that in some cases are better. But the big bread and butter high level list is gutted, theres very little left. This means but 11th level you're obsolete and by 15th you're flat out useless. If your familiar gets killed you're likewise useless. Its like they started with a cleric, stripped his spell list down, took away channel, domains, weapon/armor profs, gave him a bad save and BAB then said "but heres some very limited hexes and a pet that will one-shot you. Enjoy that".

Yes some of the advanced hexes aren't bad but they are nearly word for word rips from spells wizards and clerics are getting on top of their other spells. Wow you can summon a 18 HD outsider, I got that in a feat (True Name) and my buddy the conjurer got a perma-MS9 pet.

If you're the 7th player in a party that can be overlooked and its maybe fun as a flavor or maybe in a single player setup but in a 4 to 5 player party its literally the worst class.

MT on the other hand is extremely versatile for a slight power trade off. This stacked with spell synergy means he can cast three spells in round 1 stacked with spell perfection for almost certain spell penetration and high DC. I think you have to seriously look at that and say how it that not a great option if not OP.

You don't have to get all emotional about your pick, the facts are the facts. You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.

Greyfeather somehow seems to have gotten the impression that if a witch's familiar dies, they immediately lose all spellcasting ability. Not sure where that came from, and the rules don't support it.


AndIMustMask wrote:
Arbane the Terrible wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
i hear the hostelling (sp?) enchant for armor makes people with familiars' lives much easier once they can afford to get it.
That might help - personally, I just chose a rat who could stay in a pocket where nobody's tempted to take potshots at it.
ah, the old pocketfrog trick. i thought they can still get maimed by AoE spells aimed at you.

Sure - if you fail your save. My GM was somewhat lenient about then allowing the familiar their save, and they get Evasion. (Also, we use hero points - I've spent quite a few protecting my furry spellbook.)


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Witches don't need an uber spell list. Their hexes are vicious, and work very well. The witch in my PbP is 8th level right now, and pwns enemies regularly.

It almost takes the fun out of it. BOOM! Roll twice and take the lowest! Adios.

He rarely bothers to cast spells.


Hahaha oh wow.

Guess he's never heard of Fortune/Misfortune, or Evil Eye, or pretty much any of the other Hexes.


Rynjin wrote:

Hahaha oh wow.

Guess he's never heard of Fortune/Misfortune, or Evil Eye, or pretty much any of the other Hexes.

He's never read the spell list, or the patrons list either. Because clearly, Witches never get any good control spells ever, right?

He's stated, several times in fact, that Witches don't get Heal or Harm.

ORLY? Advanced Player's Guide page: 72

Spoiler:
7th-Level Witch Spellsarcane sight (greater), chain
lightning, control weather, cure moderate wounds (mass),
harm, heal, hold person (mass), inf lict moderate wounds (mass),
insanity, instant summons, phase door, plane shift, power word
blind, regenerate, scrying (greater), summon monster VII,
symbol of stunning, symbol of weakness, teleport (greater),
teleport object, vision, waves of exhaustion.

I'm deeply amused by this guy's existence, to be honest.


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Incidentally, if you're worried about your familiar's death, play a LN witch and get an Arbiter. Those things are darn hard to kill.


To be perfectly frank, the appeal the Witch has to me has nothing to do with their relative power level compared to wizards.

Prehensile Hair, Child Scent, and a hut with chicken legs. If I could I would play a game where all the classes had abilities as fun as those.


The hut is definitely a selling point.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Ward is better protection than most familiars and animal companions get. And wizards and clerics have more support and playtesting under them. I think witches are fun and powerful. Plus, I've always thought the "x class has no chance" line was kind of silly. People think rogues are worthless, but I have players here who will own any encounter you throw at them with a bard, a rogue, a commoner, and a small child. The game is complicated enough you can develop anything you can think of into a fun, tactically meaningful option.

And low-DC hexes? Do people who play witches dump Intelligence? No wonder they think they suck!


Witch is a well conceived, well designed, well executed class. It has a flavor distinct from other classes, and its comparable in power level to any of the other full spellcasters.

I especially like the way combining unlimited hexes with vancian spellcasting juxtaposes the streamlined table performance of a sorcerer with the flexibility of a wizard. The witch also provides an excellent full spellcaster option for player groups with a strong tendencies toward making only martial characters, because they can cover the most important spellcasting duties of both an arcane and divine caster.

Dark Archive

I've been dying to play a Scarred Witch Doctor, but haven't yet gotten the chance.

In the RotRL game I was running, we had a Tiefling Witch who just glared at f$#$ing everything and generally was a hoot to have in the party. His fox familiar spent most of its time trying to eat goblin throats.


Witch is actually right on par with the wizard in bab and spell/day progression. Depending on patron you can get wish or time stop. Scar is amazing. Retribution is awesome.

Want to f&*+ over a wizard? Misfortune followed by the Nightmares hex. It has no ending if you fail. The duration of the underlying spell is instantaneous and a single failure prevents arcane casters from preparing spells for 24 hours. This means a level 10 witch can shut down a level 20 wizard.

What's a wizard without spells? A sad, sad old man.

Familiars? Go bonded witch and you get an extra guaranteed spell per day. The ring version just happens to include an anti-magic field. Oh snap!

Or better yet! Get the Summon Spirit hex and gate in any 18 HD class character you damn well please. You don't need wish. You summon lesser beings to do that dirty work for you. Haha.

Liberty's Edge

You guys made me read the witches guide on here and I gotta say for never playing them they look amazing for field control I dont know why people think this class sucks anyone that reads the class and thinks about it will find they are straight awesome My next game I am going to make myself one just so I can try them out.

Ok on a side note you guys may shot me for I think there battle control is alot like the 4th bards.(please dont organize a angry mob on me for comparing 4th ed crap to PF awesomeness.)


The problem with the Witch spell list (barring a few patrons) is that it contains only two protection spells: Mage Armor and (Greater) False Life. It also has few spells that can deal with incorporeal creatures. In my eyes, that limits the choice of patrons significantly.

Silver Crusade

I actually hate witches but in no way do I think they are weak.

Liberty's Edge

from my reading the there hex's handle incorporeal?


You know most of the time I hate the use of this word but could this guy sound like any more of a munchkin?

When I read this what I see is "Witch don't break game easy like Wiz do!"

Trying to waste the effort to show this guy the usefulness of a Witch is pointless. He clearly can't grasp it.

-Edit- And since when is Harm a good spell? Its a touch attack with a save.. Double fail (or partial fail) spells are not good to start with but its just damage.. Even for a blast spell its sub-par as its single target touch range.

It has really only one use. Against something with Evasion and is somehow immune to all the better control spells and SoR/D spells. That can't really be that often.


Oh, witch in my campaign sucks quite a lot. Oh, wait. The messageboards are intended to be PG-13...

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

[i]Harm[/] is a great spell. As you say, it helps handle evasion characters. It also finishes combats quickly. Need a guaranteed 40 damage? At minimum CL, harm will provide that. If you optimize the spell at all, you have a shot at over a hundred damage to anything that needs to die this round. And with s witch caster, you can impact your target's save.

Witches were made for control and they rock at it.

Sovereign Court

"Love and Tolerance"

Witches are a perfectly viable class. Quite powerful and fun, doing a good job of being a different arcane spell caster from the wizard. Filling that roll as a kind of hybrid arcane with a bit of divine tht some players look for in a class.

Don't get too ruffled by people who have their mind set a particular way.


Witches tend to shut down BBEGs much easier than wizards, in my table experience.


Frankly, the only reason anyone would think Witches suck is because they have a Duke Nukem mentality that every class needs to be able to put out a high amount of damage in order to be useful.

Sovereign Court

I played on witch to LVL 7 and Loved her. Sadly the DM left and never got to play her again. Easily one of my favorite characters and possibly class.

Playing a witch in a homebrew and she is tiefling. I love her also. if it where not for her hexing the enemies, we would all be dead. She is only level 2 and with Hex, Extra hex, she is a hexing machine with the ability to do minor healing. While she is not a toe to toe person and tried to stay as far away from a fight, she helps the party a lot.

Yeah I love my witches.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some say Witches can use their talents for good.

I say burn them all!

;)

Dark Archive

Witches suck? Pffft HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh I've had so much fun ruining everything. I've prevented fatal blows and have allowed for my allies to provide fatal blows in return.

Also, one of the GM's in society has a death wish on my witch. Because Alchemists aren't any more ridiculous.

Digital Products Assistant

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Removed some inappropriate posts and back and forth. Creating a thread just to argue with or to single other posters out is not OK. If you would like to discuss something with a specific poster, you could try the private message system. Thread locked.

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