I keep looking at the Magus class and I just don't know. It's tantalizing but I am not sure if I want to take the leap.
Can anyone tell me what it is they really like about the Magus, both from a roleplaying perspective and playability perspective?
It's broken.
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From a role playing perspective I just flat out like battle mages. (not the 3.5 class but the concept.) Always have. I like the idea of someone that is flexable and feel if I was in a world like this I would not devote myself completely to melee or magic but split the two. The whole don't put all your eggs in one basket thing.
From a playability stand point they are good at what they do. Single target damage. But it is not all they can do. They don't shine in any other area as much but they have good skill points from being int based caster, They can keep themselves going well with vampiric touch and infernal healing. They can do very well as a stealth C even without it as a class skill if you go with a dex build. High dex., Silken armor meaning no skill check penalty and invis spells all work well together.
I am sure there is more versatility I am forgetting to mention but ohh well.
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It's broken.
Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that spout this nonsense. Any full caster is by far more powerful then magus.
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I keep looking at the Magus class and I just don't know. It's tantalizing but I am not sure if I want to take the leap.
Can anyone tell me what it is they really like about the Magus, both from a roleplaying perspective and playability perspective?
Roleplaying: You've got a true arcane caster/fighter character who can take some hits and dish out plenty of damage, which really fits in between the classic mage and fighter ideas quite nicely.
Playability: Seriously, this class is amazing if you know how to build it. Focus on using melee touch spells like shocking grasp along with your full attack actions to just seriously mess up enemies. Remember that when you use Spell Combat, you get to cast a spell and still make a full attack action, and if that spell includes a touch attack (like shocking grasp) you get to make an additional melee attack with your weapon (after 2nd level, anyway) which is just awesome. Stack that up with haste (from a party member or from yourself at higher levels), and you're getting a spell and 3 attacks AND a spell every round at level 2! Important note: you don't get a ton of spells per day, so the wand wielder magus arcana can go a long way to helping you get those spells off every round, though they won't do as much damage as your own spells.
While wand wielder is pretty good for buff spells and still attacking damage spells from a wand are just trash. A better investment is level on pearls of power. Yes its only one more spell per day but its unlimited use so the investment is compounded ever time you buy another one.
750 gp wand. 50 uses then gone
1000 gp pearl 1 use a day forever.
I have a BlackBlade Kensi Magus (lvl4) right now in a homebrew game. He is awesome. Like Stome said, Magus is for the people that wanted to play the Gish type character (EK would be the other path). As a Magus you can step up into nearly any roll the party needs. My group has a Monk Zen archer, Gunslinger Pistolero, and a ninja. I end up filling the front line roll with spells like shield. I also have the arcane caster skills that I bring to the group.
While you will never compete with a full caster you can fill the roll of battle field control. Archtypes are spread out that you can really make some interesting concepts. Do you have anything particular you wanted to know?
The entire point of the Magus is crit-fishing. Nobody can burst damage like they can--critting with an intensified Shocking Grasp is crazy.
They're not overpowered, though--they totally rely on the crits, and well, 3/4 of the time, you don't crit.
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Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that spout this nonsense. Any full caster is by far more powerful then magus.It's broken.
Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that they can't see the reality of the situation.
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Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that they can't see the reality of the situation.Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that spout this nonsense. Any full caster is by far more powerful then magus.It's broken.
Sorry to break this to you but the only thing they do very well is single target damage. Single target damage can never be game breaking. Why? Because killing through damage is in fact the least effective way to win. Save or Suck/die is the most effective way followed by battlefield control.
High melee damage while fun is always sub-par. The only time it looks bad is in single enemy encounters and well that's the DM's mistake not a balance problem. Never do single target encounters.
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Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that they can't see the reality of the situation.Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that spout this nonsense. Any full caster is by far more powerful then magus.It's broken.
It kind of seems like you're the only one who sees this reality--I think that, by definition, makes it insanity. ;)
Ok, seriously, though, can you expand upon what you think is so broken? Why are they broken?
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Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that they can't see the reality of the situation.Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that spout this nonsense. Any full caster is by far more powerful then magus.It's broken.
Not a wizard? Not a problem.
Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that they can't see the reality of the situation.Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that spout this nonsense. Any full caster is by far more powerful then magus.It's broken.
It kind of seems like you're the only one who sees this reality--I think that, by definition, makes it insanity. ;)
Ok, seriously, though, can you expand upon what you think is so broken? Why are they broken?
Meleers can't have nice things.
The Magus is great because it's the fighter/wizard gish, without having to put in a lot of extra work to get a decent build, and without going through that whole period where you're a lousy fighter, and a lousy wizard, and you don't have enough synergy between them yet.
Also, unlike many of the gish base classes produced by WotC over the course of 3.5, it's coherent, viable, and has decent access to useful non-combat magic. It feels like the sort of fighter/wizard who would actually exist. And I happen to like 6-level casters, just for icing on the cake.
I do wish it had been designed a bit differently, to not favor high crit range weapons over high crit multiplier weapons, just so there wasn't so much of a One True Way feel to the Dervish Dancer build.
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I agree, Phelan. The other problem with Magi, which keeps me from playing one, is that your Concentration check is really low unless you make yourself even more unlikely to hit things (as a 3/4 BAB class!) and stuff.
I think I'll rebuild my Staff Magus to have more Int someday, because I really want to give the class a chance.
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It's broken.
If you think it's broken you have no idea how to build a good fighter.
just saying...
You should see me with a keen falchion.
Keen Katana or scimitar for a Magus for that matter
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Be nice everyone :)
High melee damage while fun is always sub-par. The only time it looks bad is in single enemy encounters and well that's the DM's mistake not a balance problem. Never do single target encounters.
I should get my friend to post his fighter (bowman) build.. he can out-damage anyone at the table with that build..
or the Oracle/Paladin I run with.. his saves are dumb, AC stupid, and has ungodly lay on hands.. and he can out damage my Magus at a drop of a hat with ONE spell (I deal double damage paladin "I win" spell)
High melee damage while fun is always sub-par. The only time it looks bad is in single enemy encounters and well that's the DM's mistake not a balance problem. Never do single target encounters.
I should get my friend to post his fighter (bowman) build.. he can out-damage anyone at the table with that build..
or the Oracle/Paladin I run with.. his saves are dumb, AC stupid, and has ungodly lay on hands.. and he can out damage my Magus at a drop of a hat with ONE spell (I deal double damage paladin "I win" spell)
Sounds like he socketed plenty of paladin-only +WIN gems to max out his holy eye-lasers.
High melee damage while fun is always sub-par. The only time it looks bad is in single enemy encounters and well that's the DM's mistake not a balance problem. Never do single target encounters.
I should get my friend to post his fighter (bowman) build.. he can out-damage anyone at the table with that build..
or the Oracle/Paladin I run with.. his saves are dumb, AC stupid, and has ungodly lay on hands.. and he can out damage my Magus at a drop of a hat with ONE spell (I deal double damage paladin "I win" spell)
That's nice and I am sure its a solid build but its still just damage. Which puts him in the same place as Magus. (for the record I never said they are the best damage nor am i the one claiming them to be broken. I am well aware there are builds that out damage Magus.)
The thing is damage no matter how much is still sub-par. Even if you can kill one target in a round.
Even at low levels. One glitterdust spell that lands well wins the encounter. It does not matter who goes in and puts out some damage numbers to mop it up. The glitterdust won the encounter the moment it was cast. One standard actions. This and things like it is why damage is always sub-par.
Don;t get me wrong I love Magus and never play full casters because I find winning like this to be dull as hell but it does not change the facts.
Roleplay wise, like others have said you have someone who is split between combat and wizardry. All the roleplay lure you have for a wizard, or a fighter can be there. My magus in a kingmaker game is a character motivated by the fact that he was dismissed from his warriors guild because he 'cheated' by unintentionally using magic in a fight when hard pressed. You can really play the black sheep up with a magus if they are not particularly common in your world, because wizards would look down on them as brutes, and martials would see them as snooty wizard types who 'cheat' when fighting.
Mechanically, I mean, its pretty straight forward right? The magus is one of the most elegantly designed fighter/mage combinations i've seen in 20 years of gaming. Spell combat is a really smooth way to handle it, and the magus is among the best in the game at 'spike' damage. Meaning that they can do a lot of damage or have alot of impact with spells and effects by expending resources (spells and arcane pool points) that are limited over the course of the day. Over multi encounter days they will have to be more concervative. But when you really really need it dead and dont care how much it costs you (particularly if its vulnerable to crits with spell strike and shocking grasp) its one of the best in the business.
Why I love the Magus...
1)I adore being able to zap big damage by channeling thru a sword, the image of that in my mind delights me.
2) You can hit bigger then most but you need to be extremely careful tactically because you cannot take a hit quite as well, this appeals to my playstyle.
3) Seriously have you taken a look at the spell list? Unbeleivably good! and there's allot of fun shenanigans to be had with spell recall.
4) If you're smart you can heal yourself ok, stealth with the rogue without pissing him off, throw some battlefield control spells down and swing in on the front like a fighter- very few characters can pull thsi off (cleric I suppose.)
5) This is another matter of personal opinion but the stat spread has all my favorites, Int-Dex-Con with Wis-Str-Cha being not as important/dumpable.
OP: I like the magus because of his innate ability to make action economy his b1tch. No one can do as much as a magus can in a single round (excepting time stop users).
Everyone else: Please ignore the second post. It is clearly troll's bait.
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I was a HUGE Duskblade fan in 3.5, but the class was too limited in scope. I could only do the "Quick True Strike -> Full Power Attack ->
Shocking Grasp Arcane Channel" combo so many times before my DM wanted to throw the book at me, lol.
In my opinion, the Magus takes the general idea of the Duskblade, cleans it up, and adds a ton of new options. This class is one of the few things about Pathfinder I REALLY like, so it must be good!
Besides crit-fishing, Magi are also exceptional at combat maneuvers. True Strike + Spell Combat = win. Bonus points if you're doing one-handed reach, such as a Whip or a small Glaive on a medium character.
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From what I can see, there is basically one build that is head-and-shoulders ahead of all the others - shocking grasp. True, you can go STR or DEX, but in the end that's just so much better than any other possibilities.
Then the tactics of that build suffer from the same lack of diverse effective options. Nine out of ten rounds of battle, you have one awesome choice as to what to do (cast and hit with dat grasp), and then some other seriously not as good ones.
Shocking grasp is a good spell, but you don't have to build around that one tactic to be effective.
You could choose to build an effective general purpose melee combatant. Use lots of self buffs to boost both offense and defense.
@Ravingdork- Summoners break the action economy much harder as do druids and most wizards. I have a summoner with a +9 inittiative without improved init and regularly take somewhere around 9-12 actions at 6th level, I'd love to see a magus build do the same.
@Sarcastro- Vampire touch is an option aside from shocking grasp, Grease to disarm + unseen servant to keep disarmed, Black tenticles around mid-level, and that's just off the top of my head. YEs shocking grasp is extremely effective but it is not end all be all of a magus.
@Serisan- though you could not use truestrike with a menuever per truestrike's description. IF there's a way around that do tell.
Generally crit-fishing is something I forgot to mention, Magus is only spellcasting class that can crit a spell without rolling a Nat 20! With rapier/scimitar and keen this comes up allot!
Most of the time the magus is allot like a rogue, glass cannon against single target but you can do battlefield control ect.
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Most of the time the magus is allot like a rogue, glass cannon against single target but you can do battlefield control ect.
i wouldnt call a d10 + an ac of 22+ (at first level) and potentially a 4d6 +(str+1)(at first level) slap across the face at a +8(or more) to hit (at first level)
a glass cannon.
more like a resource dependent BBEG one shotter.
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Most of the time the magus is allot like a rogue, glass cannon against single target but you can do battlefield control ect.i wouldnt call a d10 + an ac of 22+ (at first level) and potentially a 4d6 +(str+1)(at first level) slap across the face at a +8(or more) to hit (at first level)
a glass cannon.
more like a resource dependent BBEG one shotter.
When someone is making their Magus completely ignoring the rules of the game, they're broken.
No. Just stop. You have no idea what you're talking about.
@Ravingdork- Summoners break the action economy much harder as do druids and most wizards. I have a summoner with a +9 inittiative without improved init and regularly take somewhere around 9-12 actions at 6th level, I'd love to see a magus build do the same.
Though this is true, it has no bearing on what I said above. I specifically said "No one can do as much as a magus can in a single round"--as in "no one person." Summoner's and similar characters do break action economy (in a way), but they don't do it alone. They have to rely on their summoned monsters and companion creatures. But a magus? A magus is so badass he can do it all by his lonesome!
I like the magus because:
- I enjoy playing chars that can hit enemies with a stick (some of that sticks might be pointy or have an edge)
- I realized that magic can do things a mundane can't and it can do other things better then a mundane can.
Combine that and one possible answer is the magus.
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I'm not a fan. Well, I'm also a contrarian, and it's hard to tell where one begins and the other ends...
From what I can see, there is basically one build that is head-and-shoulders ahead of all the others - shocking grasp. True, you can go STR or DEX, but in the end that's just so much better than any other possibilities.
Then the tactics of that build suffer from the same lack of diverse effective options. Nine out of ten rounds of battle, you have one awesome choice as to what to do (cast and hit with dat grasp), and then some other seriously not as good ones.
Of course, what isn't to my taste is clearly to other people's, as mounted paladins and archers have the same paucity of choice issues, and they don't suffer from a lack of fans. I will note, however, that unlike those builds the entire magus class suffers from this problem (which I acknowledge may only be a problem to me).
To be fair, I've never played a magus or even built one; I've only watched them played.
Well, I will say my experience playing a magus is much different then yours. Even at lower levels I find that I am doing alot more in combat then just shocking grasp. I would often be casting defensive and offensive buffs, and sometimes control spells. One of the great things about the magus is you can use spell combat to buff and still get in an attack, really handy if you didnt have time prior to combat to buff up (which seems to me to happen fairly regularly in most adventures i've played in). Not to mention that using control spells or save or lose spells are just as effective for a magus as they are for the wizard or sorceror. Spells like grease or web are great for covering your back when fighting multiple enemies, or just tangling up foes to make them easier to hit.
As for shocking grasp being so prevalant, that is honestly something of a failing of paizo in my opinion. They are a little over cautious with their attempts to avoid spell overlap, so there is only 1 scaling by level touch attack damage spell, shocking grasp. If you use 3rd party material or 3.5 material, you will end up with a lot more then just the one spell that fills the role of a 1st level damage spell that scales well.
@Ravingdork- Summoners break the action economy much harder as do druids and most wizards. I have a summoner with a +9 inittiative without improved init and regularly take somewhere around 9-12 actions at 6th level, I'd love to see a magus build do the same.
@Sarcastro- Vampire touch is an option aside from shocking grasp, Grease to disarm + unseen servant to keep disarmed, Black tenticles around mid-level, and that's just off the top of my head. YEs shocking grasp is extremely effective but it is not end all be all of a magus.
@Serisan- though you could not use truestrike with a menuever per truestrike's description. IF there's a way around that do tell.
Generally crit-fishing is something I forgot to mention, Magus is only spellcasting class that can crit a spell without rolling a Nat 20! With rapier/scimitar and keen this comes up allot!
Most of the time the magus is allot like a rogue, glass cannon against single target but you can do battlefield control ect.
School divination; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, F (small wooden replica of an archery target)
Range personal
Target you
Duration see text
You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
It is.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Yep I concede that's pretty cut and dry. Could have sworn there was a stipulation against callshots and special manuevers but that could have been 3.5 rather than PF...
@Ravingdork- gotcha, breaking action economy to me means taking more actions than you should be able to earlier than you might otherwise be able to. For example I consider the summoner's cycling trick (let previous round summons attack, resummon they disappear new summons attack) to be a fairly nasty action economy breaker.
@Sidekick- Glass cannons don't have good hitpoints, wasn't commenting on defense w/d8 hit dice and often only a moderate Con score (most magus builds go Dex or Stre then Int then Con) due to some MAD issues that magus can be kinda squishy! You can gear or buff your way to better HP but you only get so much wealth to spread around. Bear in mind these guys eat attacks of op like crazy for casting into melee.
@Seranov- You were talking to sidekick right?
I like idea of a magus. What ever the GM throws after you you have a chance of having a solution. Spellcasters means options...
And then you get to be in melee. Personally i like having to look at my HP an having to figure out if I need flee or if i can stay in the fight..
And when I stay - will the next hit kill me? Played a 3.5 blaster - for severals levels i left most fight with more temp HP than I started with... It was effecient - but not as fun a frontline fighter - that what I like about the magus.
Fighters, barbarians - means I'm good at one thing - the magus can take a knowledge check an adapt. Choose the right energy type for his weapon, cast the right spell... OPTIONS gotta love them!
Funky Badger, care to elaborate on your experience playing a skirnir? I have a strong feeling that it could be a popular archetype if it had the kind of attention that kensai or hexcrafters get.
Oh, and I was writing a Guide to the Skirnir (mostly to force myself to examine its possibilities) but lost steam. A little inspiration to get me back on track could do me good!
Thanks.
"Everyone else: Please ignore the second post. It is clearly troll's bait."
- it need to be said - thanks
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@Anyone that thinks Magus are OP
1) Look at Wizard for allot more options, look at Druid and Cleric for melee worthy full casters, say what now?
2) Remember all the attacks of Op these guys eat it is allot.
3) If you keep moving up catagories on armor you have to rebuy armor twice which is an expensive slot.
4) MAD problems, especially on low point buys.
5) Overconfidence- this kills most the most Magus, you have just enough HP and AC to think you beloong up front, you don't you should skirmish tactically let the barb and fighter eat damage they like it!