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Can we get a FAQ entry as to which exact type of attack hooves on a horse animal companion count after it gets combat trained at level four? My head about exploded when I tried to find an answer, due to the plethora of opinions and the general confusion about the topic. The best semi-official answer was an unofficial FAQ entry by James Jacobs from 2009.
To summarize:
- Under the druid animal companion entry on page 54 CRB, the horses hooves are listed as secondary attacks.
- At 4th level, the horse companion automatically gets combat training (same page CRB).
- Combat training under the Handle Animal skill, page 98 CRB, does not list anything special about attack types for a horse.
- However the horse entry in the bestiary, page 177, says that the hoof attacks transform into primary attacks when the horse receives combat training.
There has been a lot of back and forth about the topic in the past, in a plethora of threads. Should that not be officially clarified after so many years, especially since horse companions should be some of the most common animal companions for at least the Cavalier and Samurai classes?
It would of course be lovely if Sean or Jason could pass by and give an official answer, but barring that lots of people pressing the "FAQ" button would also be nice. ;)
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I fail to see the problem:
Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.
Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.
So the horse lose the docile SQ when he get the combat training.
Exactly what people is saying that invalidate this?
Basically, the idea of the "against" people is that, since the horse animal companion is an animal companion and not a bestiary horse, they never had the docile trait and thus cannot lose it. So the hooves stay as secondary attacks ( as they are listed under the horse animal companion entry ), since the combat training entry under Handle Animal doesn't explicitly say that a horses hooves get to be primary attacks.
I disagree, but it should be made explicit by the developers.
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Basically, the idea of the "against" people is that, since the horse animal companion is an animal companion and not a bestiary horse, they never had the docile trait and thus cannot lose it. So the hooves stay as secondary attacks ( as they are listed under the horse animal companion entry ), since the combat training entry under Handle Animal doesn't explicitly say that a horses hooves get to be primary attacks.
I disagree, but it should be made explicit by the developers.
Diego Rossi scratch his head.
It that is the line of reasoning I suppose they need they the imprimatur from a Dev.
The best semi-official answer was an unofficial FAQ entry by James Jacobs from 2009.But this post explains it perfectly. What question do you have after he clarified it? Everything he said is in the rules already btw.
As much as James makes sense ( most of the times ) in what he writes in regards to the rules, his utterings have no "official" weight, in fact what he said has oftentimes been overruled by Sean and Jason. For example, James also said in the past that combat training a horse gives it light armor proficiency, which later on was clarified as not being so by Sean in an official FAQ entry.
Thus I think that officially clearing up this last problem for what should be one of the most common animal companions would be highly beneficial.
Yeah, pretty much. I'd hope Sean takes a look at this thread, the topic actually crop up about every half year or so.
I'll bump this thread once, to hopefully gather another few FAQ clicks, so that a dev might take a look at the topic and jot it down for future clarification. ^^
I find it interesting that a PC could purchase a combat trained heavy horse for 300gp (which has both a bite and hooves as primary attacks), but there's debate about whether or not a PC's animal companion horse, at level 4 mind you, should or should not use its hooves as primary attacks. I get that things should be official, and people want a dev level ruling, but if I were the GM dealing with this, I'd simply say, "of course the hooves are primary attacks." In fact, I would encourage any player that had a druid with a horse companion to take the time necessary, and attempt the rolls necessary, to make their horse combat trained at 1st level. Heck, I might even just let them take 20 and write it off as them taking all the time necessary, before actually adventuring, to make sure they were ready for whatever might come at them. Unless you're a pacifist druid, you're going to want that horse combat trained. I mean, you're an adventurer dangit! Your horse needs to be a capable ally, not some nag on a leash.
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On a related note,
The Druid horse AC gains Combat training at 4th level as its improvement feature. Does the packet of tricks in Combat Training count against its total number of tricks known like a cavalier's horse, or is it a complete set of bonus tricks in addition to the normal ones? Or is it just supposed to be an upgrade for the hooves regardless of what tricks your companion knows so far?
The bonus tricks entry under Druid says:
Bonus Tricks: The value given in this column is the total number of “bonus” tricks that the animal knows in addition to any that the druid might choose to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill for more details on how to teach an animal tricks). [...] and they don't count against the normal limit of tricks known by the animal. The druid selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can't be changed.
Even for an AC the rules refer to the Handle Animal section, where it says:
Train an Animal for a General Purpose:[...]If the package includes more than three tricks, the animal must have an Intelligence score of 2 or higher.
Which is true for Combat Training (but might be irrelevant, since the AC gains these set of tricks by evolving for what no other precedent exists.
with
Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. [...]The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.
Emphasis mine.
Which does apply, since the entry quoted above specifically refers to the skill Handle Animal in the first place.
TL;DR?
Yes, the six tricks gained by gaining Combat Training do count against the total tricks known.
On a side note I have yet to see a druid with an AC which might serve as mount who hasn't taught/given his AC the relevant tricks in the first place but your mileage and style of pla might vary, of course.
Ruyan.
I find it interesting that a PC could purchase a combat trained heavy horse for 300gp (which has both a bite and hooves as primary attacks), but there's debate about whether or not a PC's animal companion horse, at level 4 mind you, should or should not use its hooves as primary attacks. I get that things should be official, and people want a dev level ruling, but if I were the GM dealing with this, I'd simply say, "of course the hooves are primary attacks." In fact, I would encourage any player that had a druid with a horse companion to take the time necessary, and attempt the rolls necessary, to make their horse combat trained at 1st level. Heck, I might even just let them take 20 and write it off as them taking all the time necessary, before actually adventuring, to make sure they were ready for whatever might come at them. Unless you're a pacifist druid, you're going to want that horse combat trained. I mean, you're an adventurer dangit! Your horse needs to be a capable ally, not some nag on a leash.
My GM for the group where I am playing a Ranger ( with the plan of taking Boon Companion at level 5 ) already said that he also thinks that the animal companions attacks qualify as primary after getting combat training. But I thought the question worthwhile after combing the board for threads pertaining to the problem and finding many contradicting opinions.
I would really like the whole Bite/Hoof attack problem resolved for regular horses not just Animal Companions.
From what I have been reading it boils down to two camps.
Camp 1:
A Light Horse that is combat trained has primary hoof attacks due to docile being removed.
A Heavy Horse that is combat trained has primary Bite and primary hoof attacks due to docile being removed.
Camp 2:
A Light Horse that is combat trained has primary hoof attacks due to docile being removed.
A Heavy Horse that is combat trained has a primary bite attack and secondary hoof attacks. The logic is that without Docile hooves are still secondary attacks because the horse has a bite attack. A creature with more than one type of attack cannot convert a secondary attack type to a primary attack type.
I cannot full decide which one is correct although I am leaning towards Camp 2.
- Gauss
Edit: As an aside, I find it interesting that a FAQ entry completely contradicts the Bestiary statement that animals gain armor proficiency when trained for war (without editing the bestiary statement on bestiary p307).
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An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Low-light vision.
Alignment: Always neutral.
Treasure: None.
Proficient with its natural weapons only. A non-combative herbivore treats its natural weapons as secondary attacks. Such attacks are made with a –5 penalty on the creature's attack rolls, and the animal receives only 1/2 its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment.
Proficient with no armor unless trained for war. (See FAQs and Handle Animal Skill.)
Animals breathe, eat, and sleep.
The bolded part is what convinced me they are primary. If it helps hero lab agrees. Taken from the prd, but I believe it's in the bestiary.
5' reach is the default reach even for large creatures. If the monster has a larger reach it is explicitly mentioned.
Ruyan.
A non-combative herbivore treats its natural weapons as secondary attacks. [...] The bolded part is what convinced me they are primary. If it helps hero lab agrees.
For rules questions HeroLab cannot be considered official, so whatever they state/have implemented is irrelevant to RAW. *shrugs*
Sorry, but I don't get that? You state the rules, where it says non-combative herbivores treat their attacks as secondary and conclude that ACs treat theirs as primary?
Could you explain your conclusion in more detail?
Ruyan.
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I hate to bring up my own topic again, but it appears from the FAQ button at the top that the question was answered in the FAQ.
Um, where? I looked at the CRB FAQ, at the Bestiary FAQ and at the CRB and Bestiary errata. I downloaded the last version of the CRB. Nowhere is this topic addressed.
Could a developer clarify, please?
It says this is answered in faq, anyone know how i can find the answer there ?
It says this is answered in faq, anyone know how i can find the answer there ?
Q: I was trying to stat up a horse animal companion when I realized under druid animal companions, the advanced horse section says special ability: war trained (see Bestiary). I looked, but did not see anything. What exactly is this referring to in the bestiary?
A: (James Jacobs 11/25/09) War trained is actually detailed under the description of the Handle Animal skill. Of course, there it's called "Combat Training. " It's one of the "general purpose" trainings you can give an animal. Horses in particular gain a special benefit once they're combat trained-their hooves are from that point treated as primary weapons, not secondary ones. [Source]
That isn't in the FAQ.