Sash of the War Champion+No levels in Fighter


Rules Questions


6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

This has been discussed in my group many a times, but we still haven't come to a decision, and I can't find any threads that have a definitive answer, so I create this thread for the purposes of trying to get an FAQ thread going.

Anyways...
If a Character has no levels of Fighter, and puts on a Sash of the War Champion, does he increase his effective Fighter level to 4 for the purposes of Bravery and Armor Training? what about Robes of Arcane Heritage? Or Silver Smite Bracelets? Necklace of Ki Serenity?

Or does that same Character have to have at least 1 level in said Class to gain the benefits of said item? Monks Robes are another similar item, but they specifically say"If the character has no levels in Monk, they're treated as a 5th level monk for the purposes of their unarmed damage and AC bonus", while none of the other items call that out. and yet the APG says "Any creature can use a wondrous item(unless specified otherwise in the description, such as requiring a particular class feature)", yet none of the 1st 4 items listed say they require a class feature in their description, only that they increase your effective level in that class for the purposes of those class features.

It's my understanding from that wording that the former argument would be correct based on what I have seen so far, and is supplemented by a few items that actually require certain class features, such as the Ring of Revelation, Boots of Friendly Terrain, Bracelet of Mercy, and the Helm of Fearsome Mien.

I've presented as much info as I can think of right now to try and have this properly, feel free to contribute, but for now, I press the FAQ button.


Quote:
...have to have at least 1 level in said Class to gain the benefits of said item...

This. You don't have the class features to increase. So you can use it, i.e. wear it, it just doesn't do anything.

You probably actually need the class features to, so you would need to be at least a third level fighter to make full use of the sash. This part, however, I am only 90% sure of.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It is my understanding that because items such as the Monk's Robes and Bane Baldric specifically state that characters with no levels in the class gain the features of a character with level X in that class, items that specify a class feature affected without saying that characters of any class can use them can't be used by classes without the feature. I think there was also a clarification on the Bane Baldric that stated you can't improve an ability you don't have.

However, you are correct that the general rule seems to imply otherwise, and there are also items that specifically state they only work for members of a specific class (or characters with a class feature), so the argument could work in the opposite direction.

Consistency/clarification would be nice.


Weirdo wrote:

It is my understanding that because items such as the Monk's Robes and Bane Baldric specifically state that characters with no levels in the class gain the features of a character with level X in that class, items that specify a class feature affected without saying that characters of any class can use them can't be used by classes without the feature. I think there was also a clarification on the Bane Baldric that stated you can't improve an ability you don't have.

However, you are correct that the general rule seems to imply otherwise, and there are also items that specifically state they only work for members of a specific class (or characters with a class feature), so the argument could work in the opposite direction.

Consistency/clarification would be nice.

I would assume that they left the extra text out of each of those items since then it would take up more space in a book that has a limited page content. Then again I could be wrong, so for now I wait in hope for some official clarification.

Scarab Sages

Robes of Arcane Heritage and Sash of the War Champion won't do anything for you because they enhance class features you don't have (unless you actually already have a bloodline or the armor training and bravery class features). I could see there being some cause for discussion on the Sash, but the Robes specifically affect level-based bloodline powers and effects, they won't give you a bloodline.


Ssalarn wrote:
Robes of Arcane Heritage and Sash of the War Champion won't do anything for you because they enhance class features you don't have (unless you actually already have a bloodline or the armor training and bravery class features). I could see there being some cause for discussion on the Sash, but the Robes specifically affect level-based bloodline powers and effects, they won't give you a bloodline.

The Monk's Robe also increases class features I don't have. It treats me as a 5th level monk for the purposes of my Unarmed Damage and AC bonus. The Sash of the war Champion should then treat me as a 4th level Fighter for the purposes of Bravery and Armor Training. The Robes I can understand, since you have to choose a bloodline upon taking your 1st level of Sorcerer, but the other items should function like the Monk's Robe.


The Monk's robe works that way because it says it does.

Ssalarn is right. The Sash of the War Champion won't do anything for you if you don't have any levels in Fighter. You don't have 0 levels of Fighter either, you have no levels of fighter. You can see that logic at work here.


Martiln wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Robes of Arcane Heritage and Sash of the War Champion won't do anything for you because they enhance class features you don't have (unless you actually already have a bloodline or the armor training and bravery class features). I could see there being some cause for discussion on the Sash, but the Robes specifically affect level-based bloodline powers and effects, they won't give you a bloodline.
The Monk's Robe also increases class features I don't have. It treats me as a 5th level monk for the purposes of my Unarmed Damage and AC bonus.

The Monk's Robe does that because it specifically says it does.

You can argue that the Sash of the War Champion should say that, but it doesn't, so it doesn't work that way.

Scarab Sages

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Cheapy wrote:

The Monk's robe works that way because it says it does.

Ssalarn is right. The Sash of the War Champion won't do anything for you if you don't have any levels in Fighter. You don't have 0 levels of Fighter either, you have no levels of fighter. You can see that logic at work here.

I can't believe Cheapy posted the words "Ssalarn is right" and it took me a whole day to notice. This is almost as great as that time JJ jumped in and had my back when AD called me a fanboy.

... I feel so... I don't know...

Now all I need to do is catch Shallowsoul and Malachi saying someone else was right and they were wrong and I......

Probably won't have a reason to live anymore.......

J/K!

Are there any other examples of items other than monk's robes that actually say they give you access to a class feature you don't already have to have?


I think it do not and should work for characters without fighter levels.

Liberty's Edge

I disagree. I think that since the item does not say that it works when worn by a fighter, it works for anyone.

However, this question is marked as answered in the errata, but I cannot find a reference in the errata. Can someone please point me toward the official answer?


Smite Makes Right wrote:

I disagree. I think that since the item does not say that it works when worn by a fighter, it works for anyone.

However, this question is marked as answered in the errata, but I cannot find a reference in the errata. Can someone please point me toward the official answer?

awesome... basically, they looked at the title and assumed what they wrote already covered it (since the item's name was in the FAQ).

There is nothing in the errata, but there is in the FAQ. I think they refer to :

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9ni3

It doesn't answer the question at all, but rather stipulates what they apply to.

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