Lead Designer
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Hey there Everyone,
Development on the Mythic Adventures rules is continuing here at the office and I thought I would take a moment to give all of you an update before many of use disappear from the offices for the Christmas break. Please feel free to use the following changes as part of your Mythic playtest, but make sure to note that you are using the updated rules in any feedback you might post so that we can easily tell if you are up to date.
1. All of the following rules changes have to do with the base mythic abilities common to all characters. There are other changes being made, but for this update, we are focusing on a few broader issues.
2. The following changes, by necessity, impact various other parts of the document. To keep things simple, we are not posting those changes. Most of them are self explanatory at this point.
3. There is NOT a revised version of the pdf. These changes are not in that document. At this time, there is no plan to update the pdf.
The rules changes are summarized below. Thanks again for playtesting. See you on the boards.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
The following changes alter pages 4 through 6 of the playtest pdf.
1. Gaining Tiers: We have removed lesser trials from the rules at this time, shifting them instead to a system of GM-focused guidelines for rewarding mythic characters during play. They are no longer part of the advancement system for mythic characters. Now, when a character performs a suitably mythic act (subject to GM discretion), he is rewarded with one use of mythic power.
2. Base Mythic Abilities: The following changes have been made to a number of mythic base abilities. The levels at which you gain these abilities has not been changed. The surge ability is gained at 1st level, along with mythic power.
Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to 3 plus your mythic tier. This power is used by a number of different abilities gained by mythic characters.
Surge (Su): You can call upon your mythic power to overcome difficult challenges. You can expend one daily use of mythic power to increase any d20 roll you just made by rolling 1d6 and adding it to the results. Using this ability is an immediate action that is taken after the original roll is made and the results are revealed. This can change the outcome of the roll. The bonus gained by using this ability increases by one die size at 4th tier and every 3 tiers thereafter to a maximum bonus of 1d12.
Amazing Initiative (Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. In addition, on your turn, you can expend one use of mythic power as a free action to take an additional standard action during your turn. You cannot use this ability more than once per round.
Mythic Saves (Ex): At 5th tier, whenever you succeed at a saving throw against a spell or special ability, you suffer no effect as long as that ability did not come from a mythic source, such as a mythic creature or character. If you fail such a saving throw, you take the full effects as normal. If the spell comes from a mythic source, you treat the results of any saving throw required by the spell or special ability as normal.
Unstoppable (Ex): At 8th tier, you can expend one use of mythic power as a free action to immediately end any one of the following conditions that is affecting you: bleed, blind, confused, cowering, dazed, dazzled, deafened, entangled, exhausted, fascinated, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, shaken, sickened, staggered, or stunned. All other conditions and effects remain, even those caused by the same spell or effect that caused the selected condition. Using this ability can be done at the start of your turn even if a condition would prevent you from acting.
3. The Mythic Flaw ability has been moved to the GM section of the book. GM's now have a choice as to whether or not mythic characters in there game have a flaw. Such a flaw is decided by the GM, using the existing flaws as guidance.
Thanks again for participating in the Mythic Adventures playtest. We here on the design team hope you have a happy holidays.
Jason, those all are very good changes addressing some of the problems we have identified during this playtest.
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Design Manager
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I should note that we are very seriously considering changing the uses of mythic power to 3 + twice your mythic tier. The current formula is a little limiting.
Jason
That makes sense. I think the initial system's uses were more closely aligned to a total similar to 3 + 2x Mythic Tier than 3 + MT. Particularly at lower tiers where you could be adding in a +6 or better from your primary stat.
The problem with 3 + twice your mythic tier is instead of a linear increase in power, it now goes exponential. At tier 10, instead of 13 you have 23 mythic power points to use. If you are worried about providing more power points at lower levels, you should consider 5 + mythic tier.
So what do we do with Dual Focus? My wizard has it but with these rules, it'd be useless.
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I'm rather disappointed by the Amazing Initiative change. I was hoping you'd keep it balanced between martial and caster classes, but as it stands, you just gave a major boost to casters who get more use out of standard actions than martials do. There will, of course, be exceptions, like a Vital Strike character could now make 2 Vital Strikes in a round. I also pity the GM that has a 19th level Two-Handed Fighter Archetype in his party. But other than those two, you'll be seeing casters firing off two spells a around, and 3 spells a round at higher levels. Just for example, a Quickened Mythic Fireball followed by a Chain Lightning and another Chain Lightning just for kicks could easily demoralize or possibly even kill a party or BBEG and his minions.
So what do we do with Dual Focus? My wizard has it but with these rules, it'd be useless.Time to retrain?
That is really disappointing.
I'm rather disappointed by the Amazing Initiative change. I was hoping you'd keep it balanced between martial and caster classes, but as it stands, you just gave a major boost to casters who get more use out of standard actions than martials do. There will, of course, be exceptions, like a Vital Strike character could now make 2 Vital Strikes in a round. I also pity the GM that has a 19th level Two-Handed Fighter Archetype in his party. But other than those two, you'll be seeing casters firing off two spells a around, and 3 spells a round at higher levels. Just for example, a Quickened Mythic Fireball followed by a Chain Lightning and another Chain Lightning just for kicks could easily demoralize or possibly even kill a party or BBEG and his minions.
Technically it's still the same turn so you can't cast again. Remember you can only cast once per round. So it's actually better for martial classes.
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Isn't there a rule in place that you can't cast more than one spell a turn, other than swift/immediate action ones?
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round.
Is that a flat rule, or is it due to only having one standard action per round?
I guess that determines how much it affects casters.
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Lead Designer
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At the current time, this change does remove the value from Dual Focus. If you go with these changes, you should pick another feat.
As for the Amazing Initiative change, and how it relates to spellcasters, we are actually doing a lot to give martial focus characters a lot more options in their path abilities to balance out the cool things they can do. Of course, you will have to wait on that info. I may try and post up some pieces in early January.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Agreed. 3 + Mythic Tier seems very mediocre. I like the other stuff, I guess, but the uselessness of Dual Focus is a real kick to the balls of my Muscle Wizard.
I'm rather disappointed by the Amazing Initiative change. I was hoping you'd keep it balanced between martial and caster classes, but as it stands, you just gave a major boost to casters who get more use out of standard actions than martials do. There will, of course, be exceptions, like a Vital Strike character could now make 2 Vital Strikes in a round. I also pity the GM that has a 19th level Two-Handed Fighter Archetype in his party. But other than those two, you'll be seeing casters firing off two spells a around, and 3 spells a round at higher levels. Just for example, a Quickened Mythic Fireball followed by a Chain Lightning and another Chain Lightning just for kicks could easily demoralize or possibly even kill a party or BBEG and his minions.
Took the words right out of my mouth! I was thinking the exact same thing.
So what do we do with Dual Focus? My wizard has it but with these rules, it'd be useless.
I'd like an official answer to this as well.
I should note that we are very seriously considering changing the uses of mythic power to 3 + twice your mythic tier. The current formula is a little limiting.
Perhaps both of these could be solved like so:
You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to 3 plus your mythic tier plus your mythic ability score's bonus.
This would be more in keeping with things such as domain, bloodline, and school powers, while also honoring the new mechanic of tiers adding to various things.
EDIT: Ninja'd while I was waiting several minutes for my post to go thru.
So what do we do with Dual Focus? My wizard has it but with these rules, it'd be useless.I'd like an official answer to this as well.
He already said we pretty much pick a different feat.
So does this mean you can cast a second spell when you use Amazing Initiative for an extra standard action?
Yes, I know. I got ninja'd but that doesn't change my suggestion.
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Design Manager
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So what do we do with Dual Focus? My wizard has it but with these rules, it'd be useless.I'd like an official answer to this as well.
He already said we pretty much pick a different feat.
So does this mean you can cast a second spell when you use Amazing Initiative for an extra standard action?
It would be nice for some clarification. Maybe we should take it to another thread to discuss whether the line that says "A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round." was supposed to be indicative of an understood ruling that you can't normally cast more than one spell in a round, or if it's just extraneous text tied into the fact that you normally only have 1 standard action per round.
The problem with 3 + twice your mythic tier is instead of a linear increase in power, it now goes exponential. At tier 10, instead of 13 you have 23 mythic power points to use. If you are worried about providing more power points at lower levels, you should consider 5 + mythic tier.
Nope. Still linear.
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The problem with 3 + twice your mythic tier is instead of a linear increase in power, it now goes exponential. At tier 10, instead of 13 you have 23 mythic power points to use. If you are worried about providing more power points at lower levels, you should consider 5 + mythic tier.Nope. Still linear.
Indeed. a + bx is as linear as it gets...
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Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,
There is some text, in the sections that talk about casting quickened or swift spells, that notes that you are limited to only casting one spell per round (calling such spells out as an exception). As of this time, lets stick with that rule and say that amazing initiative does not let you cast an extra spell. We can clarify the language to work that way it is intended later.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Hey there folks,
There is some text, in the sections that talk about casting quickened or swift spells, that notes that you are limited to only casting one spell per round (calling such spells out as an exception). As of this time, lets stick with that rule and say that amazing initiative does not let you cast an extra spell. We can clarify the language to work that way it is intended later.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
So how does that effect using Hero Points to get an extra action to cast a spell?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The new mythic saves is great...if you don't already have evasion or stalwart abilities. Considering that inquisitors are already limited in how and when they can use mythic powers due to the swift action economy, and at higher levels they gain the stalwart ability at 11th level, this makes mythic inquisitors even less exciting than other characters. My 17th level inquisitor I'm playtesting with also has a ring of evasion, so mythic saves would do nothing for him at all.
EDIT: I'd rather see mythic powers (especially default ones that all characters get) not duplicate existing abilities that PCs can gain, to prevent situations like this where a mythic power doesn't actually do something. All of the default mythic powers that all characters get should be something cool that any character would look forward to getting.
Perhaps a way to fix this would be something like "if you already have evasion or stalwart, you instead take half damage even if you fail your save against a non-mythic source". This still has overlap with improved evasion, but it's a step in the right direction.
I'm disappointed in the change to Amazing Initiative, it was fine before. But the rest are pretty good.
The new mythic saves is great...if you don't already have evasion or stalwart abilities. Considering that inquisitors are already limited in how and when they can use mythic powers due to the swift action economy, and at higher levels they gain the stalwart ability at 11th level, this makes mythic inquisitors even less exciting than other characters. My 17th level inquisitor I'm playtesting with also has a ring of evasion, so mythic saves would do nothing for him at all.
EDIT: I'd rather see mythic powers (especially default ones that all characters get) not duplicate existing abilities that PCs can gain, to prevent situations like this where a mythic power doesn't actually do something. All of the default mythic powers that all characters get should be something cool that any character would look forward to getting.
Perhaps a way to fix this would be something like "if you already have evasion or stalwart, you instead take half damage even if you fail your save against a non-mythic source". This still has overlap with improved evasion, but it's a step in the right direction.
Don't forget that Mythic Saves apply to all kinds of saves, not just Reflex. So people with Evasion still get an advantage against mythic enemies.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Don't forget that Mythic Saves apply to all kinds of saves, not just Reflex. So people with Evasion still get an advantage against mythic enemies.The new mythic saves is great...if you don't already have evasion or stalwart abilities. Considering that inquisitors are already limited in how and when they can use mythic powers due to the swift action economy, and at higher levels they gain the stalwart ability at 11th level, this makes mythic inquisitors even less exciting than other characters. My 17th level inquisitor I'm playtesting with also has a ring of evasion, so mythic saves would do nothing for him at all.
EDIT: I'd rather see mythic powers (especially default ones that all characters get) not duplicate existing abilities that PCs can gain, to prevent situations like this where a mythic power doesn't actually do something. All of the default mythic powers that all characters get should be something cool that any character would look forward to getting.
Perhaps a way to fix this would be something like "if you already have evasion or stalwart, you instead take half damage even if you fail your save against a non-mythic source". This still has overlap with improved evasion, but it's a step in the right direction.
I know, but if you have evasion, then mythic saves isn't as cool as if you don't have evasion. If you have stalwart (evasion for Fort and Will saves), then the same applies. If you have both, then mythic saves actually does nothing.
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Amazing Initiative: Glad to see the change to Amazing Initiative — generally I don't like abilities that make fights a foregone conclusion. Clarifying the no double-casting rule also should help to constrain rocket-tag too [hopefully].
Daily Uses: I'd still like to see 3+ability score bonus+tier considered as the formula for determining a character's daily uses of mythic power. IMO it would mesh better with established rules than 3+2x.
Mythic Saves: Like Joel, I'm not wild about giving away class abilities. However at least stalwart and evasion would still be applicable against mythic opponents...
What about monsters with Mythic Ranks...are they given 3+MR uses as well?
Thanks for the update Jason. We're going to round out the year with our own mythic playtest, so we'll see how these work out.
Hey there folks,
There is some text, in the sections that talk about casting quickened or swift spells, that notes that you are limited to only casting one spell per round (calling such spells out as an exception). As of this time, lets stick with that rule and say that amazing initiative does not let you cast an extra spell. We can clarify the language to work that way it is intended later.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Then what exactly is good for to a pure caster class? This screws the ability heavly in favor to martial class. And that would not be fair.
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Then what exactly is good for to a pure caster class? This screws the ability heavly in favor to martial class. And that would not be fair.
That's not really true. I can't count how many different ways a spellcaster can completely screw over a martial character with one spell, much less two or three.
1. Gaining Tiers: We have removed lesser trials from the rules at this time
Yay! These had playtested poorly for us so far.
Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to 3 plus your mythic tier. This power is used by a number of different abilities gained by mythic characters.
Neutral! (It is probably wise to divorce mythic power from the ability score. On the other hand, the results of this particular formula seem at first glance to be remarkably low at all tiers).
Surge (Su): You can call upon your mythic power to overcome difficult challenges. You can expend one daily use of mythic power to increase any d20 roll you just made by rolling 1d6 and adding it to the results. Using this ability is an immediate action that is taken after the original roll is made and the results are revealed. This can change the outcome of the roll. The bonus gained by using this ability increases by one die size at 4th tier and every 3 tiers thereafter to a maximum bonus of 1d12.
Neutral! I can't tell what changed here other than the name.
Amazing Initiative (Ex): standard action
*long silence, single manly fighter tear* :(
Mythic Saves (Ex): At 5th tier, whenever you succeed at a saving throw against a spell or special ability, you suffer no effect as long as that ability did not come from a mythic source, such as a mythic creature or character. If you fail such a saving throw, you take the full effects as normal. If the spell comes from a mythic source, you treat the results of any saving throw required by the spell or special ability as normal.
Not quite Yay, but this seems positive! And makes the Mythic Iron Will and such a bit more useful, I guess (though I would love to see those have some sort of effect against mythic foes).
Unstoppable (Ex): At 8th tier, you can expend one use of mythic power as a free action to immediately end any one of the following conditions that is affecting you: bleed, blind, confused, cowering, dazed, dazzled, deafened, entangled, exhausted, fascinated, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, shaken, sickened, staggered, or stunned. All other conditions and effects remain, even those caused by the same spell or effect that caused the selected condition. Using this ability can be done at the start of your turn even if a condition would prevent you from acting.
Okay!
3. The Mythic Flaw ability has been moved to the GM section of the book. GM's now have a choice as to whether or not mythic characters in there game have a flaw. Such a flaw is decided by the GM, using the existing flaws as guidance.
Yay! Hated these in playtest.
Overall verdict - somewhere between okay and yay! Although to be honest seeing martials nerfed and casters not on the amazing init thing (going with Jason's note that they will clarify the language to allow this) is the direct opposite of the direction I hoped things would go, since caster powers have seemed way sexier to me already compared to all but a few martial or skill powers. Sad to see things go in that direction, and hopefully there is some real meat to the martial powers mentioned to offset that. But other than that this seems like things are going in the right direction.
And honestly, wouldn't be too put out if the extra standard allowed neither spellcasting nor attacking, and was limited to things like activating a command word item, drinking a potion, and such. The sort of thing that would be cool but that I rarely see people willing to give up a full attack for.
That might be a complicated thing to write rules for though, and this document has a lot of complicated rules already.
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Design Manager
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Then what exactly is good for to a pure caster class? This screws the ability heavly in favor to martial class. And that would not be fair.That's not really true. I can't count how many different ways a spellcaster can completely screw over a martial character with one spell, much less two or three.
Not to mention they can still use that standard action for activating wands, staffs, or other items, or for using their school / bloodline / domain / mystery / hex abilities.
Although to be honest seeing martials nerfed and casters not on the amazing init thing (going with Jason's note that they will clarify the language to allow this) is the direct opposite of the direction I hoped things would go, since caster powers have seemed way sexier to me already compared to all but a few martial or skill powers.
I don't really see the change to Amazing Initiative as nerfing one class over another. Casters don't get another spell and fighters don't get another full attack, but Fighters can still make a swing and casters can still activate their class abilities.
One question though, could a martial character use his extra standard action to charge? He does meet the limited to only one standard action requirement, but it's still in the same round he took a full set of turns...
Although to be honest seeing martials nerfed and casters not on the amazing init thing (going with Jason's note that they will clarify the language to allow this) is the direct opposite of the direction I hoped things would go, since caster powers have seemed way sexier to me already compared to all but a few martial or skill powers.I don't really see the change to Amazing Initiative as nerfing one class over another. Casters don't get another spell and fighters don't get another full attack, but Fighters can still make a swing and casters can still activate their class abilities.
Did I parse Jason's post differently than you? When I saw "go with the one spell per round sort-of-rule for now, but we'll clarify it to work the way it is supposed to later" I assumed this meant that the final intention was to be able to cast spells with this action. And his other post about how they were going to give martial characters some other stuff to make up for it... no, I'm pretty sure I parsed it right.
One question though, could a martial character use his extra standard action to charge? He does meet the limited to only one standard action requirement, but it's still in the same round he took a full set of turns...
I'm hoping the answer to that is going to be "no." Having an ADDITIONAL BONUS action is not the same as being LIMITED IN actions.
One question though, could a martial character use his extra standard action to charge? He does meet the limited to only one standard action requirement, but it's still in the same round he took a full set of turns...I'm hoping the answer to that is going to be "no." Having an ADDITIONAL BONUS action is not the same as being LIMITED IN actions.
This seems like a straightforward and common-sense interpretation of the rules. Who are you and what have you done with Ravingdork?
Not gonna lie, I think a fighter can get a good benefit from amazing initiative, he can now move AND do a full round action, any and all fighters can make a benefit from it
That's what Fleet Charge is for, except it's both better and lower tier ;)
Vital Strike is a fair point I suppose. I play a high level fighter with a lot of iterative attacks so I rarely think of that feat as something beneficial to use, but it could be of use at other levels.
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Design Manager
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This seems like a straightforward and common-sense interpretation of the rules. Who are you and what have you done with Ravingdork?One question though, could a martial character use his extra standard action to charge? He does meet the limited to only one standard action requirement, but it's still in the same round he took a full set of turns...I'm hoping the answer to that is going to be "no." Having an ADDITIONAL BONUS action is not the same as being LIMITED IN actions.
Lol, I thought the same thing when I read RD's response!
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Did I parse Jason's post differently than you? When I saw "go with the one spell per round sort-of-rule for now, but we'll clarify it to work the way it is supposed to later" I assumed this meant that the final intention was to be able to cast spells with this action. And his other post about how they were going to give martial characters some other stuff to make up for it... no, I'm pretty sure I parsed it right.
We can clarify the language to work that way it is intended later.
It's hard to say due to the typo in his post. Is it supposed to read "the way it is intended" or "that way as it is intended"?
- If it is "that way as it is intended", then that would imply upholding the 1-spell-per-round rule.
- If it is "the way it is intended", then that would imply the intention is to allow the casting of a spell via the standard action.
My gut tells me that the intention is to NOT allow the casting of an extra spell though, otherwise there would be little point in saying, "let's stick with that rule" if he wanted us to playtest it in a way that allows a spell to be cast with the standard action.
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Lead Designer
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Folks...
Lets not parse language too much here.
We are trying to decide which way this should go, and I dont think we need a lengthy argument on the pros and cons of each (since we are pretty aware of them). In any case, once we decide, we will clear up the language on this.
For now... lets assume you cannot use your standard to cast another spell. If you want two spells, both the archmage and heirophant have an ability that allows them to get another spell cast in the round.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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Design Manager
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One question though, could a martial character use his extra standard action to charge? He does meet the limited to only one standard action requirement, but it's still in the same round he took a full set of turns...I'm hoping the answer to that is going to be "no." Having an ADDITIONAL BONUS action is not the same as being LIMITED IN actions.
You know, I reread charge and noticed that it says "If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn" so a fighter wouldn't be able to charge with just the extra standard action under any reading of the rules. He's still on his same turn and so the limit exception doesn't apply.
Excuse typos? This is the Internet, Sir!
Get well soon!
And please excuse my typos there..
I am getting over a rather nasty chest cold.
Jason
:)
Perhaps you should add disease immunity as a mythic ability ;)