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For those of you who have seen the Hobbit, how would you make Azog the Defiler? I was thinking a orc barbarian with the mounted fury and savage warrior archetypes with some levels of mammoth rider to get a giant wolf (warg) to ride. Anyone have any better ideas? What would his big mace equate to? An earthbreaker, heavy mace, morningstar?
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Free Hand Fighter
HEYYYYOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Leadership can get you a big-ass warg and orcish mooks.
yea there is nothing 'special' about the wargs, they are just worgs.
goblins and orcs have been riding these things foreva. That's like asking how to get your fighter a horse?
Edit: however, as a big bad leader type... beast rider cavalier would work.
Dont see him as a barbarian just because he's an orc. Havent seen him go berserks or rage or anything. I think he'd do fine as a ranger was well.
I second the Beast Rider suggestion.
& I haven't seen the movie just read the Book.
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Azog is a corpse in the book, before the book begins.
Azog is a corpse in the book, before the book begins.
I beleive he started the War of the Dwarves and Orcs which resulted in the near extermination of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains. Iirc, Bolg, "Son of Azog", is the Goblin / Orc leader in The Hobbit at the Battle of Five Armies. I haven't seen the movie yet although I have plans to do so...
Azog Dies before the beginning of "The Hobbit" Bolg is the leader of the goblin army in the battle of the five armies, and yes he is the son of Azog.
Yes, yes, Azog's actual story is in print. The OP is refering to the movie, which has a new story that works better on film. Try to play nice.
we know, I was referring to Azaleas, who said he agreed with my recommendation of beast rider, but that he only read the book, to which I commented azog in the book is dead. I found it funny how he is agreeing to a beastrider with only book knowledge, because the character is dead and never rides anything in the book.
The move character exudes special qualities and powers, other than a certain look.
He is powerful and charismatic, so he's likely more than just a chief orc with the ride skill.
But not that you can't run it that way, depends on the power of the PCs.
In the context of the actually movie.
There are a few PC classes in Thorins Company. But not all the dwarves are 'adventurers' Balin states "what are we but tinkers, toy makers ......" And thorn states "a few of us are warriors" Something Also said by Fili.
Fili, Kili, Thorin and Dwalin all come off as PC classed dwarves.
However what are they 10 point buy? Maybe with Thorin a 15 point buy being of "the line of durin"
Not the world shattering tough guys of yore.
In THAT setting? Azog can easily be a Orc Chief with the Ride skill and a cool looking worg.
20 point buy, 6 characters in a party? You'll want him to be more than 23 hp.
So it's all relative.
But I vote for The beastrider if you are looking for a powerful protagonist, as he isnt shown to rage in any of the battle footage.
I was meaning it as: "I haven't seen the movie yet so my opinion might not be worth anything."
Do you need him for a Protagonist(hero) or Antagonist(villian)?
Thorin's Group would mostly be a PC Fighter(Thorin), a PC Wizard/Sorcerer (Gandalf), a PC Rogue(Bilbo) all with Heroic NPC Stats and then NPC Warrior & Expert Dwarves with Basic NPC stats.
in the movie, Dwalin, fili and kili are clearly fighters and/or rangers. If you saw Dwalin you might think barbarian.... They are a bit more than the book.
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Azog the Defiler? I've been calling him "Orc on a Spork."
Well, Azog would be worthy of being PC classed and tough, given as his reputation starts with facing down the best of the line of Durin in battle at Moria. He's also tough enough to keep that rabble of orcs in line even when injured.
But did anyone else notice the patterned scars on his body?
Scarred Barbarian perhaps.
having scars doesn't make him a barbarian. Could be ritual scars like the half orc racial trait giving him +1 to all saves.
He's not a barbarian, even when he's pissed he doesn't go into rage and leap into the fury of battle.
The cavalier tactician abilities seem closer to what he's doing.
Facing down the line of during doesn't necessarily make him anything more than an orc chief either.
Have to put it into context. All those Dwarves don't have PC classes.
Thror could have been a 4th level aristocrat. Be heading him wouldn't be a massive feat.
If Erebor what chocked full of PC classed dwarves, that would have been a bad place for smaug to just wonder into.
That stems to the logic that most of those dwarves were non exceptional. like Balin states, "Tinkers and Toymakers"
Thorin is a fighter or ranger of some sort, a natural leader and capable. But destroying the line of Durin might not necessarily be any harder than destroying the line of baggins...
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Okaty, time to back up a bit.
First off, unless you change the universe expectations, what you really are going for is an NPC that will fill the same role, with a similar style as the original inspiration.
That said, Azog was set up to be a great enemy that was a terrible foe to any who faced him. A BBEG at its most basic.
The Line of Durin was set up to be the best of the Dwarven Race, even in the limited space of the film. Durin being the mythical Ancestor of the Dwarves and the Line of Durin, as heroes among them.
In a Pathfinder environment, i feel that the best way to build a foe to evoke that same sort of feeling is to put them on par with the PC's and maybe a bit above. To me that means PC levels.
You can calibrate your game to whatever you like, but the thing is, if we focus on what it MUST BE, rather than what it CAN be, I do not feel that we will keep the same sense of awe that made the character appealing in the first place.
I like the Scarred rager personally, because the Barbarian makes for a decent chasis to create a durable foe, and the Scarred Rager seems to fit the personality of Azog well. Ranger Fighter And even Cavalier could work, bu as those were stated, i decided to add to the options presented.
I would say Azog would be equal level to the PCs with PC WBL. He would also be supported by an Honor Guard of Orc Elites.
After a certain level Beast Riders can get a Large Wolf... At least I am pretty sure you can. Or house rule it to be a Dire Wolf.
Wield a Maul(Earth Breaker) mocked up as a Mace.
Is this as a Player or GM?
In it's setting, middle earth, these creatures were all basically weak.
The best of the dwarves or the best of the orcs doesn't make them kick azz heroes.
As written Azog is NOT the BBEG. That's Smaug. He's a terrorist that chases commoner dwarves through the forests.
Thorin and company has always been a band of bumbling dwarves, escorted by a few PCs classes, In the case of the movie, Fili, Kili, Dwalin and Thorin qualify as actual "Warriors" as Thorin put it. In the book, even Fili and kili had no combat skill of note.
Balin becomes "LORD OF MORIA" after this film, look at him, no earth shaker.... he's just a dwarf.
In the book Azog was already dead, and his son Bolg lead the goblin army in the battle of the 5 armies.
In this rendition of the film, Azog takes the place of Bolg, and several other 'nameless goblins'. Information about Azog as told by balin in the movie (never makes it to the book) is taking from the silmarillion and unfinished tales.
So there is no reason to assume Azog has any specific strength other than being an orc chief with possibly an advanced template.
Maybe he's just got a few levels of warrior?
It all depends on what you want to do, are you trying to make this an antagonist for a party of pathfinder PCs of 6th or 7th level?
Or are you trying to create the power level as in is in the book.
Regular old goblins in pathfinder ride goblin dogs or wolves with out any special abilities to do so.
No reason why an orc can't use ride to hop on a worg.
They are evil and intelligent, they can talk to the orc and agree to let him ride, just using something simple like diplomacy.
Thorin trounced Azog during the battle outside the gates of Moria, but loses easily toward the end of unexpected journey? Why?
Thorin wasn't a match for Azogs Warg, (advanced template worg?) on foot, Azog would have lost his other arm.
Gandalf, Thorin and Company were not running from orcs, they were running from orcs riding wargs.
The orcs/goblins are slain fairly easily, seeming to suggest the power level of the "PCs" in this case doesn't match the Worg ally that Azog is mounted on.
In pathfinder the worg is not large enough for an orc to ride, and the dire wolf isnt smart.
So it's clear the Middle Earth WARG is something different.
Perhaps a large, advanced worg would make Azogs mount something thorin couldnt take on.
Also, the battle of the five armies takes place 140 years after Azog is slain (lead by Bolg of course)
Assuming that time line and Azog is not slain (obviously) 140 years would be a LONG time to gain a few levels?
While Thorin has been trying to see to the needs of his people and wandering the wild ultimately landing in the blue mountains and busying himself setting up a new society, maybe Azog has passed thorin in Levels?
So Thorin, a level 2-3 fighter maybe, who was easily Azogs match 140 years ago, is now dealing with no normal orc anymore, but an Orc with 4 levels of Beast Rider ;by 4th level Azog could trade out a normal mount for a large sized wolf mount like this Warg, by using a dire wolf as the mount and then adding the companion powers in.
So there would be the two ways to do it, but in no way is Azog, in the movies, a high level PC classed villain, a 4th level beast rider is a huge stretch at that.
After a certain level Beast Riders can get a Large Wolf... At least I am pretty sure you can. Or house rule it to be a Dire Wolf.
Wield a Maul(Earth Breaker) mocked up as a Mace.
Is this as a Player or GM?
Azog isn't wielding anything overly scary there, he's just got a flanged mace, I'd like to see him TWF with mace and spork tho!
Middle Earth Wargs are more like Winter Wolf Wargs.
Also it should be noted that Middle Earth Goblins are basically weak Orcs.
Well Winter wolves have abilities Wargs dont have, so it's easier to build up a dire wolf or worg, than build down a winter wolf.
goblins are a small race in DnD/Pathfinder. Slightly smaller than dwarves, all purposely based on the hobbit for scale and purposes.
There were no Orcs in the hobbit, just goblins. So goblins riding worgs would have been easy since worgs are medium.
Orcs were orginally supposed to be called hobgoblins, but before publishing, JRR Tolkien realized the "Hob" meant smaller, not larger, when he was researching the name 'hobbit' for his shire folk. thus the larger version of goblins, came to be called orcs.
Originally it is based on Nordic Myths. In which Orcs, Goblins, Hobbit, Dwarves, and Elves all are referenced at least in one myth.
In Gaulic/Nordic "Hob" means Minor or Lesser.
In his Setting Goblins are basically a offshoot of Orcs and were a little smaller than the Dwarves.
Ironically, D&D originally changed Hobbit to Halfling and made Goblins small simply to avoid getting sued by J.R.R. Tolkien's Estate nothing more. Even more so since the reason why Tolkien named the Orcs as Goblins in the Hobbit because they were the lesser orcs and no higher orcs.
tolkien didnt own and had no rights to goblins, so wasnt the subject of the suit. Hobbits and ents were.
Goblins were mentioned as well as Tolkien's Estate held the rights to that depiction of them.
Just as WotC only hold the rights to the specific combination of the Beholder and Mind Flayer Names with their 3.5 Stat Blocks. You could literally keep the stat block but switch the names around and WotC is SoL in a Law Suit.
well im not sure what JRR tolkien's estate thought they had on goblins, since it easily predates them, like dwarves and elves and dragons. I do think you are mistaken, since i recently read through the documents relating to that specifically looking for the difference between orcs and goblins and fell upon all that lawsuit information.
Wargs, were changed to Worgs.
Ents to Treants
Hobbits to halflings
but there was little else Tolkiens estate could do, it was a frivolous lawsuit from the start, they received no monies, just settled on changing names. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
More people read hobbit/LoTR because of DnD than the other way around.... The tolkien clan was foolish to mess with that.
They technically have no claim on those either as they are from Nordic, Gaulic, and even Russian origin.
Heck, how can WotC even claim Beholder and the stuff they claim as it was named and referenced in a Book published under the OGL.
And which version of the Lawsuit? The First, Second, or Third? So far the Third is the only one easily found as it was the only one they actually followed up on.
Cory, I am uncertain what level your party is currently at. If you are close to level 7 then you should have no trouble with the wolf being large. The mount is equal to an animal companion. This means that at level 7 the wolf will become large and the cavalier should have no trouble teaching it the mount trick so that he can ride it.
Hope this helps
what are you going to make his 'spork' tho? A permanently attached cestus?
Hook Hand?
Or a Transformative Hook Hand!
I would call it a modified spike gauntlet personally.
throwing around PC levels like nothing else exists here. There is a reason for NPC classes and monster HD.
The dwarves in the movie seem pretty capable, against what? Goblins.
IF you had 13 level two fighters in a band of dwarves, some of them being higher level? WHY would they run from the Wargs and orcs when they are approaching rivendell?
Why do they run from them at the end of the movies and hide in trees?
Wargs are clearly specifically powerful, but in on foot battle, these dwarves didn't flee goblins/orcs. In fact the mash them nearly all the time.
So, As stated, the dwarves talking in Bag End, most ARE NOT warriors, but miners, tinkers and toy makers, a quote from Balin. Thorin says there are a few warriors amoung us.
So right there, you know you don't have a band of PC classed dwarves above level 1.
10 PB experts, maybe a warrior or two, and possibly even a commoner in there.
the only Dwarves of some note that have any 'heroic' abilities and classes are, like I mentioned earlier, Fili, Kili, Thorin and Dwalin... and like I said there might be a warrior or two among them.
This is not a band of tough guys, In fact in the book and earlier movies they didn't even HAVe weapons, with the exception of a few knives setting off from bag end!
Which is primarily why they get tooled by the the Trolls, initially.
Speaking of "Trolls" the creatures they fight in the book/movie are not pathfinder trolls or with three of them they would all have been dead.
IS there a monster like that that turns to stone in daylight? I dont think so.
The closest they seem to me would be three ogres.
I would think had they all been at least 2nd level fighters, with some rangers in there and a 4th level fighter?? Those "TRolls" would have been down rather quickly.
which brings us back to their obvious power levels being quite low. As has been unilaterally established since anyone in DnD has been trying to make or theorize of Tolkien characters in DnD.
With that (re)established, you have to put Azog in a relationship compared to their power level, if he was galavanting around as a 4th level Beast Rider with 2nd level rangers as his men, all the dwarves in that group (tinkers and toymakers) would be dead long before they got to smaugs Lair.
Which means, Azog himself isn't all that powerful.
To put in perspective, Gimli/Aragorn/Legolas don't see Wargs or orcs as much threat at all traveling across middle earth in much less numbers than the dwarves are.
Experts for most with one or two warriors. Then a Wizard/Sorcerer, a Rogue, and a Fighter.
But were looking for an "Azog" that will fill the same role when instead of the Company of Thorin, you have the Party of PC's
Time to scale up accordingly else he will not be credible in his role as recurring baddie.
a party of PC's of what level? with that argument we can just build a 20th level Azog.
IF you want Azog to be the baddie, there is a time when orcs stop being scary, and stop appearing as enemies of note, and are forever cast to the background, like trees and stones....
Not trying to build the witch king here.... it's an orc chief, riding a wolf of some kind.
IF we are talking higher level PC's we aren't talking about building Azog, we are now talking about a completely different antagonist.
Experts for most with one or two warriors. Then a Wizard/Sorcerer, a Rogue, and a Fighter.
I just returned from watching this 10 minutes ago...in 3d this time (gives me a head ache)
It's interesting, in the goblin caves, there are several dwarves that are kept in the middle with the dwarves of note either in front or behind, during their escape.
It's the same dwarves that are the "guards" that Ive already noted. Thorin, Dwalin, Fili, Kili, there also seems to be 'something' about gloin and biffur occasionally (warriors?)
Bombur is the cook (expert) and Balin seems to know history, and cartography/geography (an expert who would make an excellent spellless bard actually)
there was so much movement during the troll fight and in 3d it was really hard to see who was doing what.... the young one i think maybe nori? The one with the slingshot? He's worthless, Commoner.
But again, in the troll fight it was basically the same aforementioned dwarves that are doing the actual battle with the rest of them scrambling about.
I see a few scenes now that lend to Dwalin perhaps being a barbarian, he has two 'surges' once in the goblin caves and once at the end battle against Azog and his minions before they escape on eagles.
Balin also refers to Azog when he recalls the battle where Thror is beheaded as a 'Giant'.
Watching him closely through out the film, that appears to be true, he is quite a bit bigger (head and shoulders) the the other orcs, and tremendous, comparatively to goblins.
Azogs Warg is only marginally larger than the others, so Azog couldnt be a size category larger, or his Warg would need to be huge.
In the battle where the dwarves flee the Warg Riders just before arriving at Rivendell, 15 of them (including Bilbo and Gandalf) Flee 15 assailants (Wargs and Orc riders)
This should have been a even battle if they were all at least 2nd level fighters.
After they escape.
10 Elves (one of them being elrond although he isn't seen in the actual battle) kill or drive off the 15 baddies, easily....
I've always fancied Elrond as a Bard (mainly because he was influenced heavily by his tutelage under Gil Galad which was one of the influences for the original bard class in 1e)
But my main "Bard feeling" for Elrond was always his identification of the swords Orcrist and Glamdring. (of course it's possible he's old enough to have recognized them by sight, in theory)
A band of 'normal elves' would probably have had a better chance against the orcs due to a bards inspirations during the battle (perhaps why we don't see elrond fight because he is shouting encouragements and blowing his horn- instrument?)
Elrond is likely somewhere in the 6-9th level range. Possibly 10th. but much more likely 6th, to be honest.
Elf warriors, boosted by a higher level bard leader, killing off orcs the dwarves ran from makes sense mechanically.
So we have:
Thorin level 3 fighter
Fili Level 1 ranger
Kili Level 1 ranger
Dwalin level 2 barbarian
Balin level 3 expert
Ori Level 2 expert
Dori Level 2 Expert
Nori Level 1 commoner
Oin Level 1 Warrior
Gloin Level 1 Warrior
Biffur Level 1 Expert
Boffur Level 1 Expert
Bombur Level 1 Expert
Bilbo level 1 Rogue
Gandalf Level 6 Staff Magus
Who couldn't fight off 5 orcs and ten dire wolves
That were defeated by 1 6th level bard and 9 level 1 warrior elves.
Still think Azog = a level 4 or higher cavalier?
@Pendagast: I agree with you.
And now I want to build a campaign with those characters as pregens...
But isn't it said that the Elves were the Elite Forest Guard or something? or am I thinking of something from his other books?
If they are I would say they would be Warrior 2 or Fighter 1( with a few Fighter 2) Elves.
Well what does 'elite' mean.
think about what is said in the white council, although Jackson makes up this scene and it doesn't happen in the book, it's a theme through out Tolkiens World, The era of big bads is gone... there has been 400 years of peace, there are no super powerful heroes to fend off enemies.
With Elrond at level 6 and Gandalf at level 6.... hmmmm really? Level 2 elf fighters? what have they done to get to level 2, eat lots of leaves and berries?
The "elite" can simply be the best Elrond has chosen, meaning perhaps they all have a Dex score of 14 or higher (giving them +2 to hit with the bow)? maybe they all have a good ride skill as well?
the 147th Massacheusetts 'elite' marched out of Boston to do battle with Stone wall Jackson during the civil war, what made them 'elite'? Their commander had sprung his own money to buy them rifles, instead of muskets, and spent time training them in bayonet combat, and therefore earned the title 'elite', even thou not one of them had ever fired a shot in anger, let alone had been a professional soldier.
By Elite it is referring to the best Elven Warriors he has access to.
Apparently the Forest Guard is a unit that hunts down anything that threatens Elven Land and protects the Forests.
They aren't referenced by name in the Book but in the edition I have access to it states they are the best he has access to. In another book that provides background for Middle Earth it references that the Forest Guard were trained as if they were to go to war in the next second and had the best equipment available.
So I would say Masterwork Equipment and Elite Array with most being Fighter 1 with 1 or 2 Fighter 2 Leaders.
This is why I am saying a few level 2. The Leaders were probably older and better trained.
Remember the only difference between a Warrior 1 and Fighter 1 is a single Feat.
Your forgetting that in Middle Earth elves are immortal. Most of these "Elite" guard had fought not only against Sauron the first time he was defeated but also likely fought by Feanor's side during the events of The Silmarillion. Not to mention the huge amounts of power Elrond, Galadrial, and Gandalf each possessed based on bearing the three elvish rings. The elves and Gandalf were all more interested in peace than showing how powerful they were. IMHO this is why they hide their power rather than use it.
Gandalf is so far beyond a level 6 wizard the idea is foolish (after all he single handed brings a Balrog low).
Actually, Level 6 fits him during the Hobbit...
During LotR he would probably be just at 8th level and would be 10th after becoming Gandalf The White.
Also Elrond is technically a Half-Elven.
I think the LotR d20 supplement (the open wiki based setting actually set up by a Member of the Tolkien Estate. Yeah I know right.) had Gandalf as a Level 5 Sorcerer during the Hobbit. LotR Saga was: Grey: 7 White: 10
Perhaps Gandalf is a level 8 caster when he faces the balrog in LoTR. I think that perhaps middle earth levels do not translate directly to Galorion levels. For instance I believe that a balor is as near to a direct copy of a balrog as can be attained in Pathfinders. This puts Gandalf a CR7 = balor CR20.
I understand your statement and where you are coming from on Gandalf being x level. I just think the source of that information missed the mark.
Edit: Also Gandalf would probably be either a Solar or Planetar in disguise.
Actually He is more of an Illumian from 3.5...
And the Balrog for 3.5/d20 was CR9...
I will take your word for it then. I did not start until 3.75. Also a character reaching level 10 to 12 in Galorion will be among the most powerful beings on the planet.
My perspective was that Gandalf must be considered powerful enough to not be taken lightly for the setting he is in.
Not certain how we got from an orc to balors though :)
Free Hand Fighter
HEYYYYOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
LMAO..
SO, this thread has pretty much turned into "Pendagast and Azaelas Fayth's Extremely Limited Shared Vision of Middle-Earth"....okay.