New stuff because it hit 200k or because It only hit 200k

[LeeSw]

Sorry, but I do have a mistrust of folks asking for my money, even though I have backed many KS campaigns.

The teirs as they starred for PFO, really sucked, IMHO.

A game that expects the faithful to pay a sub fee and still pay MTX, fees, will not sell for 50 to 60 dollars.

More likey 29.99 at release in six months 19.99.
Check the market.

So the 35 dollar Tier is well just bad.

The 100 dollar teir to Beta Test, uses your Sub time?
So you pay 100 to work for them, and then pay more to keep working.

Now we see 200k here is your bonus for hitting this "goal".
This seems like a lie, it looks more like OMG the KS is still lagging,

An idea of a meeting not too long ago, though written with some humor, feels closer to the truth.

The KS is running flat,
Marketting said we would hit 50% in the first week.

Marketting responds, will can get others to beg for us, thus the Reaper letter.

Still a small bump then flat,

Well we can say they hit a "goal", and give them something that will work but what,

......

We can give them a Super Adventure, all claps but the few workers in the back, one raises a hand, but what about the players?

Marketting" the free loaders just want free stuff, this will be enough."

Oh, WizKids called, they want to cross market the Minis, so we will give one out, and another if we reach higher level, because every one like free minis, we can not lose.

One last question from the small free loaders, why release a major KS for a funded Project at Chirstmas???

In the name of my Idol, "You're Fired".
But I do not work for Marketing,
You will by EoB, then you are SOL, ASAP!

It may not of happened, this may have been the plan the whole time, but I feel that this whole KS was dreamed up in Marketing with spread sheets and the idea, the fans would back no matter how bad the value, and now they are saying these extras were planned to save face.

The value is still bad for the normal player, why does a group need 4-8 copies of the same adventure, that only the GM will have a use for?

The flip mats are nice, but again how many copies are needed in a group?

Oh and if these are quick fixes for the KS, what will they do later in the game?

Those who played EQ know Smeedly the Great Liar of Sony, and all know the damage he did to the game. I do not want to see another in PFO.

PFO might be great, but the KS is not, and the unfolding as it goes seems worse not better.

I hope the powers that be wake up and start filling in the blanks with the truth, for if they will lie to get your money, why should they ever stop.

Lee
Flame if you will, but please stop and think before you do, yes I am guessing at some things, but I bet you will be as well.
The base KS was a bad value, was it a mistake, or an attempt to get a lot of money for no value in return, no one but Paizo can truly know.
I would of felt much more trusting if they would have said, we feel the need for more Value and Rewards so here are some.
Not when things are going slow, a letter from others asking support and then new extras that we're planned all along.

[Laschoni]

I personally felt like I was getting the value when the Emerald Spire and related products were added.

But I definitely think there needs to be alternatives to the current hierarchy of rewards. Spending more money for more copies is not for everyone.

[Valkenr]

@Lee

Is it worth me taking the effort to try and decipher your post and respond? Are you here to just spout off your uninformed opinion? Or be part of a serious discussion?

[DemonGrinder]

I contributed at $100 before the recent adds because I felt it was worth it. I'm satisfied to get in the early release 9 months before open release for pre-paying for that game time now. Seems like a fair deal to me.

To be honest, I've never really understood the gripe on $15/month for a service like this. It's less than Netflix, a movie with popcorn and a soda, an average meal out. You could barely get 2-3 drinks at a bar for that, depending on location, of course. It's cheap entertainment, all things concerned, IMHO.

[Shifty]

DemonGrinder wrote:

I contributed at $100 before the recent adds because I felt it was worth it. I'm satisfied to get in the early release 9 months before open release for pre-paying for that game time now. Seems like a fair deal to me

On a side note, is the BETA time a period of gameplay they expect you to also be paying for, or only after the game opens to the general public?

[Valkenr]

Shifty wrote:

DemonGrinder wrote:

I contributed at $100 before the recent adds because I felt it was worth it. I'm satisfied to get in the early release 9 months before open release for pre-paying for that game time now. Seems like a fair deal to me

On a side note, is the BETA time a period of gameplay they expect you to also be paying for, or only after the game opens to the general public?

Yes you pay during the 'beta', I'm not getting further into why, because it has been said way to many times, read the blog. This is not your usual beta period.

[TigerDave]

To chime in with Valkenr, "Beta" is really more of a "slow-admittance release". The game is supposed to be release-quality when the beta starts (with the same pitfalls that every single MMO I've ever played had at release as well) but with limited entrance. Kind of makes sense: Instead of 20,000 people all crowding the "entrance" area and trying to make heads/tails of the game, you admit the first 5,000. In a month, they should be moved out, so here comes the next 5,000, etc.

Consider it less of "I'm paying to beta test?" into more of a "I'm paying to get exclusive early entry to the game."

Got my entrance fee locked down day one, within the first 500. I'm looking forward to having a great time!

[Swordborn]

I strongly suspect it's because "it ONLY hit 200k", not that I can blame them. I'd like to see this succeed as well, and it's unfortunate that it's so expensive (though again, I understand the reasoning) to get early access.

More and more, video games are bleeding people for premium content. I was extremely pleased with Mechwarrior online - where despite those who pre-purchased receiving open beta access, anyone with a free account could petition for admission to the closed beta (and got in 1-2 months earlier than the doors were thrown open for everyone that paid, I might add). I wish we could see something like this with PFO, it'd help out those of us who scraped together to afford the basic $35 tier during a holiday season (*cough*).

I say this from the perspective of a heavily indebted student though, so my perspective will more than likely change with time.

[DeciusBrutus]

OP: I would like to engage you on your opinions, but I can't tell whether you are expressing an opinion or simply your feelings. For the record, I share some displeasure and confusion at the marketing strategy; if it wasn't for the long lead times required to get things like recolors of minis approved, I would be convinced that they were added after the KS was announced. If I believed that there were rewards being added that weren't planned in the original $1m figure, I would doubt that the $1m figure would be adequate for the project (since the rewards budget comes off of the top).

However, the Goblin Commando on Dog recolor would take more time that had elapsed since the funding dropped off; therefore I conclude that at least that image was in the pipeline before the KS launched.

[Kakafika]

LeeSw wrote:

Flame if you will, but please stop and think before you do, yes I am guessing at some things, but I bet you will be as well.

You'd lose that bet. I'd be hard pressed to find somebody more ill-informed.

Thread specifically detailing and asking for feedback regarding PFO's payment system, posted by the Ryan Dancey

Latest blogpost specifically addressing what the PFO 'beta' will entail

xevious573 and others have a great breakdown of what value the different levels of pledges get you, if anybody is interested

If you read those links, anybody that is interested in the MMO (so long as they don't mind the typical bugginess in any MMO public release) and anybody interested in any portion of the PnP materials has a pretty good economic reason to contribute to the kickstarter. Even moreso if either of those groups place value on exclusivity or enjoy both the MMO and PnP.

Thanks for your post, though. I hope people read far enough along to see mine to get more information =)

[Steve Geddes]

I dont care what the strategy was. I'm going to get a paizo-written megadungeon which will be cool. They're going to get their MMO accelerated which will also be cool. Those who dont want to pledge to the kickstarter (for whatever reason) will get their game earlier, but without the advantage of being guaranteed an entrance early.

Who's losing? :)

[Ryan Dancey]

@LeeSW I'm just curious: Why the effort? You've posted these same criticisms on several different forums, and in several threads on this forum.

Why?

[Kain Darkwind]

I was supporting the Kickstarter before it was offering a single product I was interested in. (Beyond further success for Paizo, which has become an actual incentive for me over time.)

The megadungeon will absolutely get me to throw the hundred buck Print Pack extra at them, as it is something I actually would buy. Your post seems mostly negativity wrapped in gibberish.

[Shifty]

Kakafika wrote:

Some links!

Thanks for those, they were MUCH more informative than whats in the KS page, makes a lot more sense now.

[Midnighter]

If you don't see value in what is being offered, don't spend the money. GW is not forcing anyone to contribute to the Kickstarter. Posting inarticulate, uninformed conspiracy theories only makes you look, well, inarticulate and uninformed.

[Berik]

I have no idea when it was planned to be revealed, but it could certainly be the case that the miniatures and Emerald Spire were just announced now since the KS seemed to be lagging a bit. Or maybe it was a fluid thing that could be introduced at several points depending on what sort of trajectory the KS was taking. But even if any of that was the case why is it a bad thing? Once you have new information you adjust your plans, that's a sensible approach to a situation.

Personally I don't actually think that Pathfinder Online sounds like a game that I want to play. But Paizo obviously feel it will resonate with their fans and want to support it, so good on them. In some ways I'm a little disappointed that it took fundraising for Pathfinder Online to make the mega-dungeon that I've long wanted. But it's made me look at Pathfinder Online again after giving up my interest in it some time ago. I'm at least thinking about backing now when that was pretty much zero chance a couple of days ago.

[Zombieneighbours]

I have never once known paizo, or goblinworks to make announcements half-cocked.

A project like emerald spire needs a lot of planning to fit into paizos production calender. I very much doubt that they came up with the idea and announced it because the goblinworks kickstarter was performing "badly". Their just hasn't been time.

That said, I don't doubt for a second that at the planning stage of the kickstarter, GoblinWworks and Paizo didn't conclude that a project like emerald spire might be useful in getting the project to completion, and that the decision about when it was announced was made based upon the kickstarters performance, but their is nothing wrong with that. I want the project to succeed after all.

[Valkenr]

GW said they would be announcing more rewards, and details as the kickstarter grew.

[Zombieneighbours]

Valkenr wrote:

GW said they would be announcing more rewards, and details as the kickstarter grew.

As any well planned kickstarter does.

[LeeSw]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

@LeeSW I'm just curious: Why the effort? You've posted these same criticisms on several different forums, and in several threads on this forum.

Why?

Because, I really do think the game will sell within 3 months of release for 29.99 or less.

If not at release, for 39.99.

So the value is a lot less, than most KS projects.
Also I posted here and direct to the KS, so the other forums must be other folks.

To me this is the worst gaming KS since Ogre, 100+ for cardboard minis, bah.

It has gotten better, with the extra offers, but the 35 tier was bad.

As you can see I did support the tech demo, as I thought the project had merit,

But the game tiers seem really poor return.

So that is why, Ryan.

So if you have more to offer do it now, show me the whole deal, if it has value I will buy in.

But please do not say here Is a hidden goal,
After saying real objects were so hard to offer, now minis pop up. Ones WizKids were making anyway, cool, but why hold back stuff to get backers.

Holding back backs the tiers messy, hard to tell what you are getting. As once started you can not change them.

As a person of Marketing you know perception is greater than reality, so why even do things that make it look shady?

You asked,
Lee

[AvenaOats]

@Lee - I think I can say I'm very well informed on crowd funding and the value in this Kickstarter is very good - just higher than other kickstarters for the initial tiers. But that is explained by the fact it is a mmorpg - and a mmorpg I have been looking for for some time.

You have to realise it is up to each individual to access risk of projects for eg 2/3's of video-game projects on Kickstarter are delayed; around 40% of projects never do not become backed. If you are happy to back initially, and see your pledge gain add-ons or wait and see what the add-ons are or not pledge: It's your discretion. To argue the project should be run a certain way that fits your thinking preferences is simple nonsense. What matters is your risk assessment of the core pitch, the additional value of more backers or saving your cash for a different project to back or otherwise. It may not be how I would run a Kickstarter, but it's not my project nor would I assume to lecture how to run it.

Interestingly, as a mmorpg player, these pathfinder additions excite my interest in PnP which I have not been involved in in a long time. To each to their own.

I don't understand why you feel maligned and the need to broadcast that in the above OP fashion & style? I hope to see a successful KS campaign, please respect the backers who are happy to back and have already done so. I hope you can see some reasons to smile even if it's not for you. Peace out.

[Ryan Dancey]

"LeeSw wrote:

Because, I really do think the game will sell within 3 months of release for 29.99 or less.

So what?

Kickstarter is not a store. It is a way to get a creative project funded. Part of what your pledge does is make the project happen (or in our case happen bigger better and faster, which means with less risk that it doesn't happen).

We haven't set an SRP on the client. Who knows what the market will bear in the future when it's time to sell it. You may have an opinion, and I may have an opinion. I've sold MMOs to hundreds of thousands of buyers. Have you sold any to anyone? Maybe my opinion is better formed than yours. Or maybe not. But we haven't made any commitments so who cares?

You, as a backer of a Kickstarter get value from helping something come into existence that might not otherwise exist. You help change the way MMOs are made, not just ours, but those of other people who might also not want to do one the traditional (guaranteed to fail) way.

It is like backing your local public radio or tv station. They're going to broadcast if an individual listener pledges to support them or not, but the collective result of ENOUGH people supporting them is that they continue to function. In return, if YOU back them they give you a coffee mug, or a 3 Tenors CD, or a Prarie Home Companion DVD. The "gift" doesn't match the value of the pledge it is just a way of saying "thank you, without your support we couldn't function".

That's an intangible value of every dollar pledged. It does not have a cash value.

But that's not my question. My question is why are you spending so much effort to run down the project? If you don't like it, or don't think the reward tiers are a good value, don't back it. But you've spent several days shouting your issues into the Internet.

If you succeed in tuning people away, and our Kickstarter doesn't get funded then we have to brainstorm our next move. You get no benefit. If people ignore you, which they mostly seem to be doing in the various places I've seen you post your complaints, you have wasted a lot of time. You get no benefit.

So there obviously must be a benefit you perceive for all that effort I can't see. I'm asking you to tell me what that benefit is.

Why?

[Kakafika]

Shifty wrote:

Kakafika wrote:

Some links!

Thanks for those, they were MUCH more informative than whats in the KS page, makes a lot more sense now.

I'm really glad to hear that helped you out, Shifty!

I've seen you make several posts in various threads asking questions about the game and the kickstarter. Thanks for your patience and for your persistence in finding answers and clarifications!

It has taken us a few days, but many members of the community and dev team have been making an effort to bring important information (most of which we have been familiar with for months) back to the forefront so newcomers can find those important development points.

I don't blame anybody for not having the right information to make real criticisms of the game, it is tough to find it after all; I just hope they forgive the community for some sometimes less-than-patient responses and continue to seek out the information they need :)

[Arlock Blackwind]

First off I do not incourage arguments, flaming, or any part of taking sides of an argument that belittles someone but.

Go Ryan.

We trust you to do what is right. I missed out on the first kicksterter by days and I Plan to invest in the new one to now show suport. I know from a bystanders point of view both marketing and making a game is no easy task. it is only easier when you have good material but it is never a guarantee. Maybe the video could have shown a little more. maybe their could have been more promices and information on the second KS but we trust this to be a ground shatering game none the less. Even if the second kickstarter fails I will still be here to support and argue opinions with Andius, Blaeringr, and all my other nemesis.

LeeSw your concerns are yes valid, I am hopeing you are just worried and need reassurance but this is a bit much. No one can foretell the furture. Not even the great flying spaghetti monster. You just need to have faith that what you have taken part of is something that makes a good impression to the community outside this forum. it may not sell for 39.99 or even 29.99 but because of what it represents I would gladly pay 79.99 for it. How many other people would say that I cannot know for sure but again this just means I need to trust Ryan to do whats right with GW.

[Shane LeRose]

People want value. As it stands this KS began with a cool million needed while offering little comparative value. LeeSw's questions are legitimate and are the same questions many non-Fans have asked me when I pitched the KS to them.

Now we're having things added as if they were stretch goals without even meeting the minimum goal. From an outside perspective it doesn't inspire confidence. You have my money and I appreciate the extra's, but convincing my friends to join a game that charges monthly, especially when none of them actively play MMO's anymore, is a trial. I'm not a salesman for a reason.

People tend to view KS as a way of getting a good price on a product before its release. Some folks have taken the time to do the maths on all the benefits involved, there is value in getting all the toys together. The problem is, not everyone wants a super dungeon or early entry in a game they think will still be buggy (I've read your blog, but before I did so I thought I'd be participating in a buggy beta). This game needs players, not DM's. Maybe some incentives that appeal to players is what's needed. I don't know. I only have one KS made and it failed. All I have are concerns, not answers.

[Nihimon]

As someone who very much wants to play PFO with my wife as soon as possible in Early Enrollment, I thought there was exceptional value at the $175 level. That's not to say people shouldn't voice their concerns; I'm just offering my own perspective as part of the mix.

[Kakafika]

@Shane

Here is my maths at the opening day of the Kickstarter and why I pledged immediately:

If the game costs $39.99 at release (give or take $10) and a sub costs $15/month (we know this is the case), then the $100 dollar level gets me $75-$95 of what I would have paid for anyway.

The extras that were announced on the first day were:

In-game: New Player Pack
In-game: Alliance Pack
Soundtrack
PDF/e-book Crusader Road novel
Goblin Squad membership
32-page PDF sourcebook of Fort Indomitable
32-page behind-the-scenes PDF

Even if I didn't get any enjoyment out of that stuff, I would still find the extra $5-$25 a great value to be able to start playing about a year before anybody else, not to mention the ability to continue giving feedback to direct the devs on what to work on next. The extra month of subscription time they added along with all the physical rewards really make me feel like I'm getting a good deal now.

There are plenty of posts like what I did here breaking down the 'value' of different pledges (please read the links in my post above).

Most of the people that have had concerns with the 'value' have missed key points of the different pledge levels, sometimes because specific information takes a few minutes to find it.

[TheDarklord]

I to backed straight away, I can't wait to get stuck into the early enrolment! :-D

Keep up the good work GW, this will definitely be a success!

Daniel.