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What would be the best uses for shadow conjuration and shadow evocation?
My witch has the Shadow patron and just gained shadow conjuration as a bonus spell. I am starting to look into what spells qualify for it and develop ideas of my own but I wanted to hear what has worked well for others and the advice they have.
For those who are going to just discourage me from using these spells, I respect your opinion but I ask that you keep it to yourself. I am aware of how the spell works and the limitations. I am willing to deal with the limitations to have more versatility and options. I also have the benefits of being able to debuff enemies to set them up for the spells as well as decently high spell DCs. I thank you for your friendly intentions to discourage a fellow pathfinder from making what you feel is a wrong choice.
For shadow conjuration, the obvious use is to summon monsters with the summon monster spells but there is also mad monkey from the summoning side of things as a fun choice. On the creation side of the spell I noticed that spiked pit is an option, which opens up some good possibilities as well. I also see that stinking cloud qualifies, and while that is a witch spell, casting it with shadow conjuration would free up my 3rd level spell slots.
I haven't really looked into shadow evocation as I won't have it for a couple of levels. Still, it would be nice to hear ideas and opinions on how to use it.
this is relevant to my interests.
Dotting for future reference.
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Being as I'm about to start a Shadowcaster, I think I'll join this little chat.
My thoughts: Replicating summons, as a rule, isn't a great idea with shadow spells, because even if the target believes the illusion, the monsters still have one-fifth of their normal hit points. So they'll take about as many hits as your average Minor Image of a summon before going down.
There's a whole bunch of creation spells you can copy that do battlefield control- having Shadow Conjuration lets you choose the one that's right for your current battlefield and not catch your friends. Spiked Pit is good, but also look at Aqueous Orb and the various "cloud" spells, like Ash Storm and Sleet Storm.
I'll advice you to ask your DM about his understanding of the illusion school. Specifically on his stance on a very specific topic.
Can an illusionist chose to fail his willsave on his own illusions, thereby experiencing them fully.
Or
Can he not, thereby being forced to always disbelieve his own illusions.
If your DM rules that you can elect to fail your will-save on your own illusions, great. If not however, I'll advice you to never ever use shadowconjuration to make a monster in the interest of buffing/healing yourself, as you'll only recieve 20% of the effect.
I may have more ideas later, so I'll keep an eye on this thread. For now though, that is it.
Cheers
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Here are some spells I've gotten good use of simulating with the shadow line of spells (some are conjuration, some evocation):
phantom steed
forcecage
major creation
minor creation
gust of wind
wall of force
To really make your GM's head explode, ask what happens if you use greater shadow evocation to replicate contingency.
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Ordered by level:
Conjuration(Creation), Sorc/Wiz 0-3
- Acid Splash
- Drench
- Grease
- Mage Armor
- Obscuring Mist
- Unseen Servant
- Stumble Gap
- Corrosive Touch
- Icicle Dagger
- Web Bolt
- Stone Shield
- Acid Arrow
- Fog Cloud
- Glitterdust
- Web
- Arrow Eruption
- Create Pit
- Slipstream
- Stone Call
- Cushioning Bands
- Web Shelter
- Fiery Shuriken
- Reloading Hands
- Phantom Steed
- Sepia Snake Sigil
- Sleet Storm
- Stinking Cloud
- Aqueous Orb
- Spiked Pit
- Ash Storm
- Ablative Barrier
- Pellet Blast
- Phantom Driver
- Gloomblind Bolts
Conjuration(Summoning), Sorc/Wiz 0-3
- Summon Monster I
- Summon Minor Monster
- Abundant Ammunition
- Summon Monster II
- Summon Swarm
- Mount, Communal
- Summon Monster III
- Mad Monkeys
- Rain of Frogs
- Summon Totem Creature
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Ordered by level:
Evocation Sorc/Wiz 0-4
- Dancing Lights
- Flare
- Light
- Ray of Frost
- Spark
- Breeze
- Penumbra
- Scoop
- Burning Hands
- Floating Disk
- Magic Missile
- Shocking Grasp
- Flare Burst
- Hydraulic Push
- Touch Of Combustion
- Continual Flame
- Darkness
- Flaming Sphere
- Gust of Wind
- Scorching Ray
- Shatter
- Burning Gaze
- Elemental Touch
- Fire Breath
- Defensive Shock
- Frigid Touch
- Protective Penumbra
- Burning Arc
- Fire Sneeze
- Frost Fall
- Pilfering Hand
- Ricochet Shot
- Spontaneous Immolation
- Gusting Sphere
- Daylight
- Fireball
- Lightning Bolt
- Tiny Hut
- Wind Wall
- Heatstroke
- Campfire Wall
- Draconic Reservoir
- Elemental Aura
- Hydraulic Torrent
- Pain Strike
- Twilight Knife
- Distracting Cacophony
- Force Punch
- Sheet Lightning
- Battering Blast
- Vengeful Comets
- Chain of Perdition
- Night of Blades
- Call the Void
- Firestream
- Fire Shield
- Ice Storm
- Resilient Sphere
- Shout
- Wall of Fire
- Wall of Ice
- Agonize
- Emergency Force Sphere
- Ball Lightning
- Detonate
- Dragon's Breath
- River of Wind
- Vitriolic Mist
- Volcanic Storm
- Telekinetic Charge
(Thank you d20pfsrd.com for your spell sheets!)
For the conjuration, looks like Phantom Steed, Spiked Pit, Stinking Cloud, Web Shelter, Aqueous Orb.
For the evocation, Emergency Force Sphere, Tiny Hut, Wall of Fire/Ice, Resilient Sphere, Hyrdaulic Torrent, Daylight (the last one being ironic...).
(oh, useful link)
Pellet Blast looks rather interesting - overcoming DR with an illusion...
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Yes, the GM allows people to choose to fail saves if they wish, even if doing so is harmful.
Thanks for the list Tangaroa! That is very, very helpful.
I had missed the fact that there isn't a material component and that the casting time is always a standard action. That is going to make life easier indeed.
I also hadn't realized yet that the duration is set by the spell you are mimicing.
What all that in mind, here are a few questions:
- I noticed mage armor is available and wondered if someone attacking you even benefit from a save. Would they even get a save if they attacked me?
- I am guessing glitterdust would have a 20% chance of failing if the subjects made their save against it. However, it seems like only the blindness effect would be subject to the 20%, as the glittery substance is seen by everyone else. Thoughts?
- If a spell gave concealment and you disbelieved it, would you be unaffected by the concealment?
mage armor is available and wondered if someone attacking you even benefit from a save. Would they even get a save if they attacked me?They'd only get a save when trying to hit you. Before then there's no interaction between the enemy and your illusion.
- I am guessing glitterdust would have a 20% chance of failing if the subjects made their save against it.No, it would have a 20% chance of succeeding, and an 80% chance of failing.
it seems like only the blindness effect would be subject to the 20%, as the glittery substance is seen by everyone else. Thoughts?It's odd to have different effects of the spell react differently to making the save, but it's not unheard off.
If a spell gave concealment and you disbelieved it, would you be unaffected by the concealment?
Correct.
Dotting for reference
One of the best things, I find, is the added versatility.
If you memorize shadow conjuration, you effectively have ALL the spells above ready to go. So you can decide what you need on the fly
In practice, this is incredibly useful.
Yeah, the real strength of these is obvious: versatility. For a sorcerer it's a whole bunch of spells known, and for a wizard/witch it's like one slot that's spontaneous. It's the kind of spell you would never not prepare, because no one has immunity to it, and it can cover combat, utility, mobility, or a variety of other things. As for what to actually use it for? Whatever spell you wish you had prepared but don't. Keep those lists by your side and decide quickly what you need to achieve.
EDIT: This also effectively heightens all of those spells to the level of the shadow spell you're using to imitate them.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Some spells are not really worth mimicing. Acid arrow for example is better when cast normally as the addition of a save and spell resistance from the shadow version hurts it. I am going to have to look at the full list to find others like this.
Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm are nice options: if you can arrange for a special keyword that lets your allies know it's an illusion, then you end up with a version of Stinking Cloud/Sleet Storm that only affects your enemies, which is nice.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm are nice options: if you can arrange for a special keyword that lets your allies know it's an illusion, then you end up with a version of Stinking Cloud/Sleet Storm that only affects your enemies, which is nice.
We actually use the spell message a great deal, and it would be perfect for just the purpose you propose. It would be great to benefit from those spells without being hurt by them as well!
Just found this thread again, after having read it while "under construction" last year and I must say, I see shadow conjuration as nice tool for adding many spells normally not available to bard's, too.
Anything I overlooked?
Ruyan.
I also have been giving shadow conjuration a second look for my air elementalist wizard, and for me the thing that's most attractive is that it's a work-around for the spells denied me by my opposed school. The list of earth spells I have to use two slots to cast includes some conjuration spells that are painful to lose: grease, glitterdust, stinking cloud, stone call, and the pit line. If I prepared shadow conjuration, though, I could cast *any* of them on the fly, and with a higher DC to boot. That strikes me as a reasonable trade-off!
long as you keep your DCs high, the double-save scare doesnt come up much.
the shadow evocation and conjuration docs in the guide to the guides sticky have MATHS to help assuage some fears.