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My biggest problem is that a tech demo produced in 2012 looks not that much better than World of Warcraft pre-alpha videos. Not to mention that it's coming out in FOUR YEARS.
MMO is a dying genre. WoW still keeps strong, but only because he was #1 for a long period of years. Almost every other MMO went F2P (SW:TOR, recently) because they were losing subscribers drastically and that's basically the sign that it's doing badly. And all that because they don't offer anything new.
Now, Pathfinder Online will come out in 2016 and they haven't offered us anything never before seen. What I see is combination of WoW and EVE. While the premise is intresting, I don't believe it will be that good in four years.
So, they have a company that never made any other games, terrible release scheldue, no novel ideas, this is their second Kickstarter project for the same thing... Golarion is the only setting I play in PnP for the past 3-4 years and I can't see myself even glancing at this game.
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I did fund the original, I have no interest in the new kickstarter. To change my mind? I'm probably with you, if there were a pnp book that I could add to my shelf, i'd at least consider it.
Goblin Squad Member
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@Toadkiller Dog, that post is so incredibly uninformed that I can't even choose where to start correcting it.By all means, go ahead.
Personally, I'd think they should try something smaller, like a single player rpg, perhaps an adaptation of one of the adventure paths or something similar to that.
That would be entirely outside the realm and experience of the current development team, as well as the concepts. Ryan and Mark's primary experiences, are in making MMORPGs, working with community aspects of games etc... Ryan saw a demand for a game of the type they are making (sandbox MMORPG in which the players are the primary content for other players) and chose to fulfill it, and decided that the pathfinder universe was the best licensing deal to make to accomplish the goal. If for some reason paizo were not equally excited about the idea, odds are Ryan would be working on making the game+
If a company who's experience was in single player RPGs etc... were to approach Paizo requesting licensing to make a single player RPG, I do not believe this deal will have much bearing on it. Goblinworks opting to make an MMO, has no impact on a company who's experience is in single player RPGs, would be accepted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My biggest problem is that a tech demo produced in 2012 looks not that much better than World of Warcraft pre-alpha videos. Not to mention that it's coming out in FOUR YEARS.
MMO is a dying genre. WoW still keeps strong, but only because he was #1 for a long period of years. Almost every other MMO went F2P (SW:TOR, recently) because they were losing subscribers drastically and that's basically the sign that it's doing badly. And all that because they don't offer anything new.
Now, Pathfinder Online will come out in 2016 and they haven't offered us anything never before seen. What I see is combination of WoW and EVE. While the premise is intresting, I don't believe it will be that good in four years.
So, they have a company that never made any other games, terrible release scheldue, no novel ideas, this is their second Kickstarter project for the same thing... Golarion is the only setting I play in PnP for the past 3-4 years and I can't see myself even glancing at this game.
Not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll take a moment to answer your post.
A pre-alpha trailer is far different than a technology demo. That would be like taking a look at what Goblinworks has produced by next year this time. Secondly, Blizzard was a long established company with 3 games already in it's franchise, all of the art, sound and manpower assets at their disposal. That video was from far farther into their development cycle than PFO, please adjust your expectations accordingly.
"According to the analysts, worldwide spending on MMOs will top $12 billion this year, and that's not all: The companies also predict that this number will increase to a whopping $17.5 billion in 2015." See com/trend-reports/mmo-trend-report/ and http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/report-global-mmo-spending-to-top-1 2-billion-in-2012/ . I agree that SWTOR Warhammer, Rifts is that they tried very little new. I played all of these theme-park WoW-clones that offered very little new.
But PFO will be one of a very small but much anticipated genre of MMO; Sandbox. The most successful of the Sandbox MMOs being EVE online. Sandboxes are unique that instead of designing a large ammount of linear content for the players to visit it gives the players a large degree of control of resources in the world and allows player interaction to be the main feature. Very few games have been able to even launch that attempt to do this in a non-space setting. If you want to see an example of a bad attempt, see Mortal Online.
If you want to see why you should be excited about PFO, my advice isn't to look at what has been done so far. Not to diminish the tech demon, it was nice for what it is, but it didn't really blow me away either. What should draw you to this game is the passion that the Goblinworks staff have poured out for the game, even this early in the development. Happy meat is good meat and Passionate developers equals juicy game. Another mark for innovation comes from the Crowdforging aspect, no other game has had players and backers have this level of imput on the growing project. Its a process and journey that will no doubt be very fun.
As far as not liking the release schedule... I'm wondering what you think would be better? Do you want the game next month and empty? Goblinworks has outlined what is a very reasonable plan for development and launch. Even if they Kickstarter only just passes, they will release by 2016. Production on WoW began in 1999, which means they made their game in more time than Goblinworks is asking to make PFO, its hardly unreasonable.
As far as your lack of faith in Goblinworks and confusion about the Kickstarters... The first Kickstarter was for a technology demo to show to investors in order to generate interest for PFO. The second Kickstarter is for the game itself. The fact that the first kickstarter blew it's target away and the second one is rising quickly, you'd think a person who likes pathfinder would be inspired by that... but you're not and infact the opposite.
If you don't like how things have gone so far, despite the reality being very positive and quite inspiring, maybe this isn't the place for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those saying this game has no original ideas I would encourage you to read the GW blog again. Off the top of my head I can list:
1. A bounty system where you can choose who is allowed to collect on it.
2. A contract system that allows alignment shift based off player interactions.
3. Unit formation. A PVP system designed for major battles where marching in formation and working together gives massive benefits.
None of these features have been seen before in any MMO I am aware of, and the third is sure to really distinguish this game from any existing MMO.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm not sure the graphics on a game like this need to be Crysis 3 level. Content, features, stability and fun to me are much more important than how pretty are the sprites on the screen.
As for anyone with reservations the option to not back this second Kickstarter is a viable one. Like other posters have said, just wait until general release and see if it interests you at that point. For people like me this is a great opportunity to get in on the ground floor and help shape the experience. My favorite MMORPG was the pre-CU SWG and that was a sandbox, skill-based game with high complexity. I'm hoping this recreates that same type of experience.
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Why I think this game will fail:
Most people I know play D&D (aka Pathfinder) to play a character through an epic fantasy story. I realize that people play RPGs for a variety of reasons, so am not trying to point out "bad-wrong-fun", but I am generalizing. Most of the game revolves around leveling and storytelling. NONE of the game revolves around PvP...it is not remotely a part of Pathfinder's structure or language. How much of PO revolves around PvP? Nearly all of it?
Now the fantasy PvP element will surely appeal to some (but now you are subdividing the people who would be intersted in a "Pathfinder game" at all even further - A fraction of a fraction). I was very excited when I heard about PO until I heard about the player pvp driven sandbox elements and my interest dropped to zero. I will never play a pvp focused game. They tend to be havens for jerk-griefers. So far what I have heard about PO has zero in common with the Pathfinder game that I play outside of wrapping the game in a "Golarion skin".
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe things will change. Maybe I need to do more reseach on the current state of PO. Maybe when I see the PvP elements in place it will all "work". But I am beyond skeptical. Definately in the CONCERNED catagory.
I hope I am wrong, because an awesome Pathfinder game would be just that....awesome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I watched the technology demo, the one thing that got me was the combat seemed pretty stiff. Then, I thought to myself, this is really early in the process and hope things will change. The one good thing as crowdforgers, we can hopefully influence that. I would like to see a more fluid combat system. The rules for pathfinder are supposed to give framework to a representation of real combat situations. The demo looked like it was following the rules more than mimicing real life. I think there can be a good balance between realism and keeping true to the core prinicples in Pathfinder.
I am excited to be a part of the process and shape how the game will look. I have beta tested a lot of MMORPGs and have played D&D for a long time. The level of involvement that this process promises really appeals to me since I am passionate about the subject. I plan to wait and see how things develop and try to add my input to make a great game.
I wouldn't say I'm underwhelmed, but I am concerned.
First, the Kickstarter... I think it will make funding, but I don't expect it to blow the goal out of the water. This means few/no stretch goals, which means no crescendo of funding at the tail end and can mean a drop off late. I really hope there are 20,000+ people ready to back this as it gets more press. The next few days will be pretty critical, if it can keep the momentum it has now going, then this concern will start to evaporate.
Secondly, what we get for $100 edition. I see it as a Digital Collector's Edition with 2 extra months of gameplay. I put the value on something like that at about $80. This means I'm pledging an extra $20 to get in early. I'm ok with that (obviously, or I wouldn't have pledged so early), but it does mean that I don't feel like I'm getting a bargain.
Thirdly, I'm concerned with the early enrollment. Three, maybe four races. Limited but stable gameplay. I'm paying a premium to get a less polished game experience, and in return I've got an iota of influence on the game. It's better than no influence, but I already see that my chosen race in the first crowdfunding experiment is losing out... being able to give feedback is great, but having your feedback be on the losing side is less cool.
Fourthly, I'm concerned with the subscription plans. $15/month plus microtransactions for bling and convenience is a lot. I know WoW does it, but they're WoW, they can do anything they want. Eve does it too, and I realize Eve is the model, but it still concerns me.
Outside the money and plans though, I've got lots of other concerns. Will the game look like Pathfinder? Art direction is very important to me, I want my game to have a strong, unique look. Will PFO deliver? Will the game be fun? Even if humans are the primary parts of content, the act of crafting, traveling, fighting... these need to be fun. Will the economy work? In a sandbox game the economy is key, and bugs or flaws will need to be rolled back or it can totally destroy the economy. Will the game feel like Pathfinder? I'm not sure if that will be truly possible, the characters will be limited to a few races, magic, health, healing, death, rest will all have to be on MMO time and not anything similar to the actual game, and death will be common. Given that the mechanics of tabletop vs MMO really don't mesh, there's going to have to be a lot of work to get the feel there in the places you can.
All of the above is just 'I want the game to look good and be fun', and that's something that you just can't know until it's done and you're playing it. I'm hesitant about dropping $100 now because there is every chance that what gets developed will not be the game for me. However, I really want the concepts that are being espoused to succeed, and no one else is trying to do something like this outside of Darkfall. Darkfall is atrocious, and PFO answers a lot of my complaints with that game.
I'm trying very hard not to compare PFO to WoW, but PFO will be released in a world in which WoW exists, and that's a tough game to stand up to. I personally don't expect PFO to have WoW level of polish, but I know that when I play WoW, I get that polish, and when I play other games, it is lacking and it annoys me. I hope that PFO is so very, very different from WoW that those comparisons don't come up.
So... I'm in for $100. I'm very, very hopeful. However, I'm also very concerned. The next 47 days will see which way my pledge goes. I am very interested in seeing KS updates, and hope that they will address these concerns in a concrete way.
Show me art assets. Show me animations. Show me the workings of combat and magic. Convince me starting with a splinter of the world of Golarion is good enough and that I won't miss the races, class-based advancement, and all the rest. I want to see it! I want to be convinced!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kildaera
No-matter what anyone says this game isn't to draw Pathfinder players into an MMO. It's to draw MMO players into Pathfinder. While I did play 3.5 before, I had never played Pathfinder before joining the PFO community. Now I have, as have many of the members of the PFO community.
I didn't hear about PFO while playing D&D. I heard about it while playing Mortal Online. I think if you talk to many of the most avid supporters of PFO they will tell you something simalar. And that really will be the key to PFO's success. There are not as many PF players begging for a Golarion MMO as there are MMO players begging for a great fantasy sandbox title. Or in my case begging for a good sandbox that is more hands on and faster paced than EVE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kildaera
No-matter what anyone says this game isn't to draw Pathfinder players into an MMO. It's to draw MMO players into Pathfinder. While I did play 3.5 before, I had never played Pathfinder before joining the PFO community. Now I have, as have many of the members of the PFO community.
I didn't hear about PFO while playing D&D. I heard about it while playing Mortal Online. I think if you talk to many of the most avid supporters of PFO they will tell you something simalar. And that really will be the key to PFO's success. There are not as many PF players begging for a Golarion MMO as there are MMO players begging for a great fantasy sandbox title. Or in my case begging for a good sandbox that is more hands on and faster paced than EVE.
That was the case with Pax, at least. We were directed to the first Kickstarter project through our games forums, where we discuss upcoming games of all sorts. While it interested some of our Pathfinder tabletop players, it was not what brought our attention. It also is not what has kept it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought the point of the tech demo was to show investors they have the ability to actually make the game, not to show a polished product to sell. My impression was actually quite a positive one! We have a world that even at this pre alpha stage is not looking bad, the character models are ok, I thought the goblin models and animations were great. I think they proved they have the ability. The rest is a case of time and resources to get the details right. You need to actually have a feature designed before you can work out how best to animate it, after all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought the point of the tech demo was to show investors they have the ability to actually make the game, not to show a polished product to sell.
You thought right. I understand that most people want to judge it on whether it looks polished with great animations, but that's most definitely not what they were trying to show off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok Marshal Jansen well I understand what your saying and want to let you know that the $100 level gets more then that, it gets the game and the 3 month sub but also get the next step below it which is loremaster which gets a pathfinder novel, a pdf source book of Fort Indomitable, a download of the soundtrack from PO, a behind the scenes pdf book, a new player pack (not sure what that is), and a pathfinder alliance pack (once again not sure what that is).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@brad
It's 4 months now.
Show me art assets. Show me animations. Show me the workings of combat and magic. Convince me starting with a splinter of the world of Golarion is good enough and that I won't miss the races, class-based advancement, and all the rest. I want to see it! I want to be convinced!
This is an unrealistic request, the game has barely started, and is probably just a collection of ideas and sketches at the moment. The mechanics of combat and magic are things you iron out later in development and are highly subject to change, so details like that in the vast majority of MMO releases are rarely revealed until a beta starts. I think GW has given us more than enough information to make an informed decision already in the blog.
The reason you should want to play the early enrollment is so you can help forge the world for the official launch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kildaera
No-matter what anyone says this game isn't to draw Pathfinder players into an MMO. It's to draw MMO players into Pathfinder.
The problem is the impression they are giving is that the game they are building ISN'T pathfinder.
Its eve online using pathfinder graphics and terminology.
Eve Online is a pvp griefer game written for griefer, by griefers and I just don't think thats what pathfinder is about to most players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Summersnow, it sounds like you've already decided that PFO is going to be a "pvp griefer game written for griefer, by griefers" despite all the efforts Ryan and others have made to demonstrate that it's not - efforts that are clearly effective for the majority of people in this community.
If you're going to ignore the very people who are designing the game when they explain how PFO will minimize griefing, then what kind of response are you actually looking for?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Summersnow, it sounds like you've already decided that PFO is going to be a "pvp griefer game written for griefer, by griefers" despite all the efforts Ryan and others have made to demonstrate that it's not - efforts that are clearly effective for the majority of people in this community.
If you're going to ignore the very people who are designing the game when they explain how PFO will minimize griefing, then what kind of response are you actually looking for?
"The game is designed to maximize meaningful human interaction. In most of the game world the players will be able to attack one another freely. However in some areas such combat may be subject to harsh penalties and in others it may be forbidden completely.
Avoiding PvP entirely may be very difficult, but you can minimize the amount it will affect you by carefully choosing where you travel and by taking precautions as you move around the game world."That is the ONLY explanation of PVP on the Kickstarter, listed under the faq response to pvp.
If they have done more they should perhaps they should have linked that under said faq response instead of the answer they gave on the page where they are like asking for a lot of money from people?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they have done more they should perhaps they should have linked that under said faq response...
There's only so much information they can put there. They've been explaining their plans to the community here for over a year, and there's still a lot that hasn't even been designed yet. I think that's why they direct people who are interested here to these forums so that the community here can answer their questions.
So, if you have any questions, feel free to ask. There are quite a few people here who will try and answer your question as best they can, in as friendly a manner as possible.
The part that *I* am most concerned about is the small handful of people who are already, before we've seen anything more then a tech demo, who are trying to assert that the game:
1) "is not the game for you"
and
2) "you should go find some other game"
Rather than trying to embrace the fact there are different desired MMO playstyles and encouraging the game be as all inclusive as possible of different desired methods of play. Is that not the point of a sandbox MMO? To try to encourage multiple styles of play and have the players create their own content by engaging in the activities they want to participate in?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The part that *I* am most concerned about is the small handful of people who are already, before we've seen anything more then a tech demo, who are trying to assert that the game:
1) "is not the game for you"
and
2) "you should go find some other game"Rather than trying to embrace the fact there are different desired MMO playstyles and encouraging the game be as all inclusive as possible of different desired methods of play. Is that not the point of a sandbox MMO? To try to encourage multiple styles of play and have the players create their own content by engaging in the activities they want to participate in?
You don't have to PvP if you choose not to... So what does that leave us with? Are you afraid of being killed by other players? Are you afraid of being killed by npc's?
In PFO you can play anyway you choose... Just expect to die a lot and often.
After you except death, life is more enjoyable.
You don't have to PvP if you choose not to... So what does that leave us with? Are you afraid of being killed by other players? Are you afraid of being killed by npc's monsters?
Did I say a single word about PVP in my post?
PVP, Crafting, Exploration, Territorial Ownership, anything. No one should be saying "if you don't like it, maybe this isn't the game for you" or "if you don't like it, you should find another game". That sort of thing should be being ruthlessly and mercilessly crushed. While they won't all get acted upon, or all even be considered, all opinions are at least valid. The act of intentionally trying to drive people away from the game just because you don't agree with their opinions on a given matter is just shameful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't have to PvP if you choose not to... So what does that leave us with? Are you afraid of being killed by other players? Are you afraid of being killed by npc's monsters?Did I say a single word about PVP in my post?
That was your underlining meaning yes. Atleast that's how I read it.
If I was mistaken then I apologize.
You don't have to PvP if you choose not to... So what does that leave us with? Are you afraid of being killed by other players? Are you afraid of being killed by npc's monsters?Did I say a single word about PVP in my post?That was your underlining meaning yes. Atleast that's how I read it.
If I was mistaken then I apologize.
I hit enter to early, so the second paragraph didn't come through. Tried furiously to edit it in. My complaint (at least this time) isn't about PVP specifically. It's about attitudes and behaviors I've noticed amongst a key group of posters that I find infuriating.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't have to PvP if you choose not to... So what does that leave us with? Are you afraid of being killed by other players? Are you afraid of being killed by npc's monsters?Did I say a single word about PVP in my post?
PVP, Crafting, Exploration, Territorial Ownership, anything. No one should be saying "if you don't like it, maybe this isn't the game for you" or "if you don't like it, you should find another game". That sort of thing should be being ruthlessly and mercilessly crushed. While they won't all get acted upon, or all even be considered, all opinions are at least valid. The act of intentionally trying to drive people away from the game just because you don't agree with their opinions on a given matter is just shameful.
The only time I have ever seen anyone in this community say "this is not the game for you" is about PvP. PvP is very much a part of PFO and will remain so.
The only time I have ever seen anyone in this community say "this is not the game for you" is about PvP. PvP is very much a part of PFO and will remain so.
This sort of behavior always starts with one topic, and then spreads like a plague into others, until it reaches a threshold where people are too afraid to even offer the slightest critique on matters. Letting "fanboyism" take over the forums to the point where people aren't even allowed to offer divergent opinions is laying the first brick in the road to ruin. Just ask the now-unemployed original dev team from FFXIV how well letting that happen that worked for them.
Sorry. I missed it. What "divergent opinion" were you offering?
I'm not. The thread is about being "underwhelmed and concerned". I offered my concern.
There's a fine line between offering a divergent opinion, and clearly misrepresenting facts. Just as there's a fine line between silencing dissent, and correcting those misrepresentations.
I'm intentionally making a huge effort not to bring that debate over into this thread, Nihimon. Please respect that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Robb
We are all concerned about griefing, it's been a hot topic for the past year. So we all respect your concerns.
Ryan and Lee are working very hard at implementing mechanics and game designs to keep griefing at a minimum. Will it work? Who knows really but I think their on the right path...
So yes please keep voicing your concerns.
By the way I thought running for my life outside of Minoc while leveling up in UO was a lot of fun, got my heart pumpin! What was even more enjoyable was when I leveled my Legendary Tamer 6x Gm and got my revenge!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The demo was to show that the core team can do an MMO, period.
Personally I liked it because it looked a lot like my favorite MMO of all times (DAoC).
If you ask "why DAoC" then I would answer because I was in the best guild in this game.
In other words, if the system is solid, I don't care alot about the garphics and I much prefer a game with a good game system than with fancy graphics and not much else (like AION or SW:TOR).
I loved EVE's PvP. The only problem I had was when I initially began playing EVE. Learning the system connection points had a steep learning curve, however it was simple once you understood it. You never had to set foot in a PvP area if you wished not to and still acquire everything in the game, granted some of it would have to be through the economy. It was casual and carefree. However, if you wanted to get your heart thumping, heading into low-nullsec would do it for you. The more danger, usually the greater the rewards. There were griefers, but they were few and far between. You could usually get away if you built for it. You had to prepare before venturing into the unknown and far reaches.
It'll be similar, according to how I interpreted the Blogs and FAQs, in PFO. You'll be able to spend all your time in the safe areas if you so choose and still skill up. You may have to play the market some to get every item you want, but that's the downside of playing low risk. It'll still be available though. Perhaps you'll have to cross slightly dangerous areas to travel from safe area to safe area, but it will be minimal. If the PvP is as described, then PvE heroes will still find plenty to do while being an integral part of the larger gaming world.
The differences I've seen between the PvP systems of EVE and PFO seem minor, mostly to allow the system to work in a terrestrial based, rather than space based, game. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they have done more they should perhaps they should have linked that under said faq response...There's only so much information they can put there. They've been explaining their plans to the community here for over a year, and there's still a lot that hasn't even been designed yet. I think that's why they direct people who are interested here to these forums so that the community here can answer their questions.
So, if you have any questions, feel free to ask. There are quite a few people here who will try and answer your question as best they can, in as friendly a manner as possible.
Unfortunately a lot of people who might otherwise be interested don't have time or inclination to dig through all the forum entries. They read what's on the Kickstarter page, decide that's not for them and they're gone. I was almost one of them. I have no interest in PvP, but a lot of interest in a sandbox MMO. That it's associated with Paizo and Pathfinder is even better. I read the description and signed up, then noticed the PvP entry in the FAQ and almost withdrew my pledge.
On reflection, I decided to maintain my support. Even if it turns out not to be the game for me, I want to see PFO succeed, for the sake of the Paizo and Pathfinder brands.
That's not going to be true for everyone, though. I could probably have put together a guild-level pledge by now if there were a PvE-only option. No one I've talked to is interested in playing in an unrestricted PvP game. Having decided it doesn't interest them, they're not very likely to visit the forums.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unfortunately a lot of people who might otherwise be interested don't have time or inclination to dig through all the forum entries.
I understand. That's why I put the effort into creating a source for new members of the community to quickly scan through the blogs and see which ones they might be interested in reading. And why I've tried to write friendly welcoming posts on the occasions like this when a bunch of new people show up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unfortunately a lot of people who might otherwise be interested don't have time or inclination to dig through all the forum entries.I understand. That's why I put the effort into creating a source for new members of the community to quickly scan through the blogs and see which ones they might be interested in reading. And why I've tried to write friendly welcoming posts on the occasions like this when a bunch of new people show up.
And it is appreciated. I certainly found it useful. Might be nice if those introductory threads were sticky.
I've got to be honest in saying that one thing disappointed me about the tech demo:
When two dudes are in battle, their attacks don't physically connect: Even in the now dated neverwinter nights 1 game, characters' swords and shields meet beautifully, and the fight looks totally convincing.
THAT BEING SAID:
Pathfinder Online is a project that emphasizes substance over form. At no point were we promised incredible graphics. We were offered an immersive experience unlike anything that's been done before.
If you're the type of player who complains about graphics or makes graphics a high priority, you're probably not the target audience of PFO. You can leave and we won't miss you in the slightest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest, the recent blogposts and the threadposts by Lee give me the impression that PFO is going to be anything but FFA Open PvP.
Note: I want FFA Open PvP. I am disappointed by the new restrictions I've seen
Lee has designed a system with many variable mechanical disadvantages for engaging in non-war PvP. This includes death curse (PvPers can have their unlootable armor become lootable/destroyable), alignment shifts, chaotic settlements having higher upkeep costs and being restricted from the best buildings, and more.
I originally thought these sorts of mechanics would only come into play near NPC settlements. Then there was a blog or forum post about Lawful settlements being able to hire NPC guards. Now I get the feeling that these mechanics will be in force on a daily basis and for many or most player interactions; or at least that the option for that has been left open.
To me, this is anything but Open PvP. This is Open PvP via declarations of war.
This is not the game that I imagined. I thought that random killing was already significantly curbed by only being able to loot a random item/s from a character's corpse. I was impressed and excited to see player organizations like The Great Legionnaires police the community and serve to make banditry even less appealing.
I didn't expect that further costs to banditry would be necessary, as settlements under constant attack from bandits would band together and devise ways to combat it. I suppose I could live with higher upkeep costs, assuming some overwhelming profitability for banditry despite the restrictions previously enumerated (mechanical as well as player-driven). But not being able to build buildings for character advancement seems a bit much when banditry (as well as being a caravan guard) is a planned role for players to engage in (I can understand restricting paladin or monk buildings, but that distinction has not been made).
At this point, it seems to me that avoiding a large portion of PvP is as easy as joining a Lawful Good settlement and sticking with players of that alignment. The players there won't hurt you (because they don't want to lose their alignment), the town guards will rush to your defense if you don't stray too far (even alone), and players based in that settlement will actively hunt criminals nearby in order to raise their alignment. If you do get killed, you can place a death-curse on that character so they may lose some of their equipment and you can place a bounty on that character as many times as you like, for as much coin as you like, forever. Also remember, there is no reason to return to your corpse after a PvP engagement; there is no such thing as corpse camping.
It seems like PFO has taken another few big steps towards limiting daily player interactions in favor of PvP as a wartime interaction. I'd rather they hadn't. I thought making player-run settlements responsible for the safety of their citizens and high costs for killing new players in the NPC city areas was sufficient. I suppose many people are happy about these changes. Since it has been a point of contention since day 1, I'm not surprised they did put in more limitations.
I'm not happy that 'criminal' status with a timer and alignment penalties will be applied in more areas than the starter NPC towns. I can live with it. I guess I envisioned more of a 'wild west' sort of society in the River Kingdoms, where settlements are laws unto themselves and mete out justice as they wish or are able. And that they don't necessarily care if their law-abiding citizens break laws elsewhere (lawful vs chaotic alignment shift), though the gods might (good vs evil alignment shift). I guess I will just be sure to join a chaotic or neutral settlement... I just don't like the idea that players that make that choice will further be gimped by not being able to get access to some buildings required for character development.
Now I just hope people will take the time to look at how restrictive these new systems really are so we stop seeing "PvE server please" posts every day. I have doubts, as even the original, well thought-out restrictions and player and developer testimonies on how PvP would be designed to play out seem to have gone largely ignored :)
Note: As I said above, a lot of the specifics were left open-ended. This could be extremely restrictive or just more restrictive than before. The fact remains: PvP is more restricted than we knew a month ago.
EDIT: Add more stuff to hurt your eyezzzzz
