CEO, Goblinworks
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After a TON of internal debate and discussion we finally settled on the term "Crowdforging" to describe the process we're using to make you a central part of our development process!
We wanted to give recognition to @Rokolith and @Kryvnus who gave us inspiration to coin this term. @Rokolith suggested "Crowdlaunching" and @Kryvnus suggested "Community Forge".
In recognition, we're going to make both @Rokolith and @Kryvnus Goblin Squad members (if they're not already!)
Thanks to everyone who made suggestions. They were so much fun to read and to talk about!
Here's to many many years of Crowdforging ahead!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's amazing what you learn when you read!
Making Pathfinder Online will require a three-step process. First we will develop the basic game systems needed to get the game into a playable state. Second, we will open the game to our first paying customers during Beta – a stage of development akin to Gmail’s initial launch; all the features in the game will work but many aspects of the complete specification will still be in development. Third we will complete the Beta phase and Release the game. On Release, all of the basic game systems will have been implemented and polished and we will be focused on adding content and expanding options.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a two-edged sword. They could have called it something else, but that would have its own costs in trying to explain what that new term meant, and there would have been people saying "It's a beta, call it a beta".
I think Ryan tried to explain this...
An attempt at an explanation doesn't equate to being correct or wise in a decision.
I can tell you why I chose to climb power lines while drinking wild turkey, but it won't have made the arresting officer any less inclined to throw me in the drunk tank . . . ;)
The reality of the situation is that it's a paid/closed invitation period of development and testing. All MMOs are unfinished all the time, yet we call them "released" when they start taking money. Apparently that distinction was too easy for GW to make.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's amazing what you learn when you read!
Making Pathfinder Online will require a three-step process. First we will develop the basic game systems needed to get the game into a playable state. Second, we will open the game to our first paying customers during Beta – a stage of development akin to Gmail’s initial launch; all the features in the game will work but many aspects of the complete specification will still be in development. Third we will complete the Beta phase and Release the game. On Release, all of the basic game systems will have been implemented and polished and we will be focused on adding content and expanding options.
A single throwaway sentence in how many hundreds of sentences?
A second minor, ambiguous mention in one FAQ entry (that doesn't even really relate to the question "are you making me pay for beta") is all the mention to extracting cash from testers that there is.
Sorry, but you can be a tool all you want, it doesn't absolve GW of the responsibility to highlight their aberrant definition of beta which apparently they saw one indie MMO in Europe do once so it's all good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fairly sure we're definitively stuck with one new word and one old term that's being recycled.
Maybe we can go ahead and push common usage of "early enrollment" when talking about the "paid beta" and circumvent the word which is already encumbered with over a decade of meaning in the industry. :)
Let's do that then. Perhaps if the community starts to use those terms, then it'll stick and make explaining things to new members of the community that much easier.
So, to get our ducks in a line, what do we think of this:
Alpha - small group of testers, including those who back at Crowdforger Alpha level - developing fundamental aspects of the game, core gameplay mechanics
Early Enrollment - larger group of testers, including those who back at Crowdforger Pioneer and upwards, subscriptions in place - adding more content, developing the societal structure required for the game to launch, discussing which features are prioritised
Open Enrollment - open to anyone, subscriptions in place - polishing for release, finishing features
Release - open to anyone, business model of subscriptions and hybrid-microtransactions activated
I'm pulling that info from the Kickstarter page and what has been said on the forums. Does it make sense?
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Goblin Squad Member
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An attempt at an explanation doesn't equate to being correct or wise in a decision.
And just because you disagree with a decision doesn't mean it was wrong.
You're spending a lot of effort making a lot of noise complaining about the same thing over and over, all the while hurling insults and calling people names if they dare to disagree with you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well perhaps a little heavy-handed, at times, but I really like some of the things Corwynn has pointed out. It's a good sign to me, that someone with experience in the mmorpg world (both sides) has recognised the potential of Pathfinder Online and can ask hard questions about the value of beta/crowdforging process; albeit like Marv in Sin City:An attempt at an explanation doesn't equate to being correct or wise in a decision.And just because you disagree with a decision doesn't mean it was wrong.
You're spending a lot of effort making a lot of noise complaining about the same thing over and over, all the while hurling insults and calling people names if they dare to disagree with you.
"Sometimes I ask pretty hard.".
:) I think some of that value is intangible so it's not just a break-down of value for money; locking up cash with potential for delays; how much fun vs testing is that cash yielding etc... although the relative value of that early cash to devs is maybe at it's highest?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Investors are putting money in to get their cash + profit back at some point in time. They most likely take equities to have a word to say as to where the game is going, making sure they will make profits in the end.
Backers are putting money in to get their game + fun at some point in time. They most likely beta test to have a word to say as to where the game is going, making sure they will have fun in the end.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An attempt at an explanation doesn't equate to being correct or wise in a decision.And just because you disagree with a decision doesn't mean it was wrong.
You're spending a lot of effort making a lot of noise complaining about the same thing over and over, all the while hurling insults and calling people names if they dare to disagree with you.
The only name-calling was on your part, and I had thought that you had decided to step back from that precipice. But hey, if you want to go round and round, I'm game. But like I said yesterday, you might want to find someone who is an easier mark.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well perhaps a little heavy-handed, at times, but I really like some of the things Corwynn has pointed out. It's a good sign to me, that someone with experience in the mmorpg world (both sides) has recognised the potential of Pathfinder Online and can ask hard questions about the value of beta/crowdforging process; albeit like Marv in Sin City:"Sometimes I ask pretty hard.".:) I think some of that value is intangible so it's not just a break-down of value for money; locking up cash with potential for delays; how much fun vs testing is that cash yielding etc... although the relative value of that early cash to devs is maybe at it's highest?
Some questions aren't easy or pretty and there's no way to ask them properly outside of being direct. Do you think that in meetings with investors they're asking easy questions? Why should player-backers always hop around cheering at every turn?
Nothing ever gets better without being looked at critically. In software development there's a regular look back at mistakes which have been made so that in the future things work more smoothly in the first place. It's not unexpected or even an indictment of anyone.
It is simply a necessary part of the process.
Dissenting voices are more valuable than those of yes-men. Better to identify issues than to stay silent and hope it all works out for the best. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some questions aren't easy or pretty and there's no way to ask them properly outside of being direct.
There's a big difference between "asking pointed questions", and saying "you're doing it wrong, change it".
From your first post yesterday:
I did so with the understanding that Goblinworks would ten secure funding.
At this point it is clear that they have not actually done so. If they had, we wouldn't be paying for Beta.
This also happens to be the first thing I tried to correct you on, but you weren't having it.
It's not a question. It's a statement of fact, and it's wrong.
Nothing ever gets better without being looked at critically.
So, how about looking "critically" at your own posts with enough humility to realize that just because you think it's a mistake doesn't mean it is one, and certainly doesn't mean it hasn't been thoroughly analyzed by Ryan and his team.
Dissenting voices are more valuable than those of yes-men.
And I have never tried to silence simple dissent. What I've tried to do is correct the record when someone posts something that is factually wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After a TON of internal debate and discussion we finally settled on the term "Crowdforging" to describe the process we're using to make you a central part of our development process!
We wanted to give recognition to @Rokolith and @Kryvnus who gave us inspiration to coin this term. @Rokolith suggested "Crowdlaunching" and @Kryvnus suggested "Community Forge".
In recognition, we're going to make both @Rokolith and @Kryvnus Goblin Squad members (if they're not already!)
Thanks to everyone who made suggestions. They were so much fun to read and to talk about!
Here's to many many years of Crowdforging ahead!
Wow, that is awesome. If I wan't already a Crowdforger Alpha I would probably upgrade.