As the title says, how do you get past Epic DR? There is a great deal of it in the new play test so I thought I'd bring it up.
Obviously there is the gm fiat weapon(a weapon that breaks the rules and has +6 enhancment or higher), a niche weapon(a +5 Bane weapon, who's effective enhancment is over 6), paladin's smite evil(which ignores dr), and many of the new mythic tier path abilities(Which, like smite evil bypass dr entirely or specifically counts as epic damage for the dr).
Is there anything else? I ask since I was apparently under the misconception that a weapon with a total effective enhancement bonus(like a +5 Keen longsword) would work since its adjusted enchancement was +6, so I just want to have all my ducks in a row as it were.
It's already been stated by Paizo that bane weapons never go above +5 (I've already tried that). The only other thing I could think of would be something with DR/Epic that had natural attacks. I think those attacks would count as Epic for bypassing DR.
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It's already been stated by Paizo that bane weapons never go above +5 (I've already tried that). The only other thing I could think of would be something with DR/Epic that had natural attacks. I think those attacks would count as Epic for bypassing DR.
Not to derail, but do you happen to know where this was stated? Because it flies in the face of everything I've ever heard in the forums and of any previous precedents. A +5 Bane (Evil Outsider) weapon should be +7 against its chosen foe.
The only thing that comes to mind that you didn't mention is the Penetrating Strike line of feats.
Right forgot about those. Good call.
The only other thing I could think of would be something with DR/Epic that had natural attacks. I think those attacks would count as Epic for bypassing DR.
Yeah they do. Another good catch, but not exactly a common place solution for most.
It's already been stated by Paizo that bane weapons never go above +5 (I've already tried that).Not to derail, but do you happen to know where this was stated? Because it flies in the face of everything I've ever heard in the forums and of any previous precedents. A +5 Bane (Evil Outsider) weapon should be +7 against its chosen foe.
I'm curious too and don't feel it's a derail imo.
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No against it's chosen foe, a +5 Bane weapon remains a +5 Bane weapon with a +2 bonus to hit and damage above the +5. The distinction is important.It's already been stated by Paizo that bane weapons never go above +5 (I've already tried that). The only other thing I could think of would be something with DR/Epic that had natural attacks. I think those attacks would count as Epic for bypassing DR.Not to derail, but do you happen to know where this was stated? Because it flies in the face of everything I've ever heard in the forums and of any previous precedents. A +5 Bane (Evil Outsider) weapon should be +7 against its chosen foe.
"Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. To randomly determine a weapon's designated foe, roll on the following table."
It doesn't say "you gain an additional +2 to attack and damage" it specifically says the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than it's actual bonus. So +5 becomes +7 against a chosen foe.
Creative Director
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(Paizo creative directive even said he wouldn't let smite evil overcome dr/epic).That's just a house rule. The actual rules as written allow smite evil to overcome DR/epic.
Although Mythic Adventures is a GREAT time to address this... the paladin's smite ability did not really take DR/epic into account during design, and it should have. (It just rubs me the wrong way that a 1st level paladin has a mechanic that would let her penetrate an evil demigod's damage reduction.)
That's a good way to get their moment of ascension. They poured so much faith and their own life force into the smite that the right god/goddess noticed!
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Although Mythic Adventures is a GREAT time to address this... the paladin's smite ability did not really take DR/epic into account during design, and it should have. (It just rubs me the wrong way that a 1st level paladin has a mechanic that would let her penetrate an evil demigod's damage reduction.)(Paizo creative directive even said he wouldn't let smite evil overcome dr/epic).That's just a house rule. The actual rules as written allow smite evil to overcome DR/epic.
What about it bypassing (2 * # of mythic tiers) of DR/epic? Enough that it has a significant impact, but the DR still maters.
Nawtyit wrote:
Thank you for being so helpful in the past. I have another popular question for you.Would a +4 or +5 bane weapon, becoming +6 or +7, bypass DR/Epic against a creature it was bane to?
(+4 magical beast bane weapon bypasses Tarrasque’s DR 15/Epic, for example)Nope.
Good enough for me.
This is reinforcing my general experience that dealing with DR at high levels or high power levels (in the case of mythic) is just ultimately a pain in the rear.
First, if you get a bunch of attacks per round and have to subtract damage from each one, it slows things ridiculously down. The higher the power level, the more the attacks, the slower it gets, and the more boring gameplay is for everyone. I know there's some limited abilities that prevent this (I think a feat for archery that allows you to subtract the damage once) but generally it's a problem.
Second, primarily because DR is such a chore, all it does is make players and their characters do everything they possibly can to find ways to bypass DR. All of their focus in acquiring gear and abilities that allows them to bypass DR whenever possible. Again the issue is less that they want it to be easier to defeat the monsters (they can manage to do that anyway) but more that they just are sick of dealing with the mechanic. As a GM, you've either got to keep saying no and the quest for gear will never cease, or you let them have the gear and DR becomes a non-issue---and the thing is, for me that becomes a welcome thing. Something is wrong when I as a GM am going, "Thank god they can bypass this ability that is supposed to make my monsters tougher."
In a high level campaign (not mythic--gonna run a playtest soon though), I finally just gave everyone +5 weapons so most DR was bypassed, and did other stuff to instead heal or buff the monsters instead since I knew DR was a non-issue. It worked MUCH better. When I do run my mythic playtest I will bear this in mind as well.
Since mythic rules are an opportunity to explore other ways of beefing up PCs and enemies alike, I hope the designers look for other ways to reflect the "hard to hit" option than the ultimately useless slog that is DR.
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Good enough for me.Nawtyit wrote:
Thank you for being so helpful in the past. I have another popular question for you.Would a +4 or +5 bane weapon, becoming +6 or +7, bypass DR/Epic against a creature it was bane to?
(+4 magical beast bane weapon bypasses Tarrasque’s DR 15/Epic, for example)Nope.
That's a far cry from saying the weapon enhancement doesn't go past +5, it's just a statement that Bane weapons aren't intended to be able to bypass DR/Epic. James has made it pretty clear that he doesn't believe there should be very many (if any) ways to bypass DR/Epic, and that's fine.
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First level Wizard bypass Dr Epic with Magic Missle. Hunky Dory.
First level Paldin bypass DR Epic with Smite. Nerf the infidels!!!!
Yes I know the Wizard MIGHT have to beat SR, the Paladin still needs to hit the AC.
There is a pretty good chance that Mr. Epic would have various immunities/resistances/shield spell too that a first level wizard could do nothing about. First level Paladins have an easier time getting around that sort of thing than high level Evokers do.
There is a pretty good chance that Mr. Epic would have various immunities/resistances/shield spell too that a first level wizard could do nothing about. First level Paladins have an easier time getting around that sort of thing than high level Evokers do.First level Wizard bypass Dr Epic with Magic Missle. Hunky Dory.
First level Paldin bypass DR Epic with Smite. Nerf the infidels!!!!
Yes I know the Wizard MIGHT have to beat SR, the Paladin still needs to hit the AC.
First level paladin With a 20 str and a 20 charisma a Masterwork weapon and weapon focus will need a natural 20 to hit an an 33 or higher.
If you are fighting Epic mobs at first level either one goes splat. The paladin MIGHT last a bit longer with an 18 con giving him 14 hp to the wizards 10.... but probably not.
Your first level paladins are not going to be dealing with the Tarrasque.
I disagree completely that a First level paladin has an easier time getting around that sort of thing then a high level evoker.
Yeah the wizard would auto-hit with his 2-5 point damage magic missile and then get stomped on like an annoying bug on by the tarrasque. The paladin would swing and miss a few hundred times then get stepped on ACCIDENTALLY by the tarrasque. If he DID get lucky and roll a natural 20 on the same round he was using Smite (don't you have to use it and if you miss too bad?) at most he'd then become an annoying bug like the wizard was.
That's a far cry from saying the weapon enhancement doesn't go past +5, it's just a statement that Bane weapons aren't intended to be able to bypass DR/Epic. James has made it pretty clear that he doesn't believe there should be very many (if any) ways to bypass DR/Epic, and that's fine.Good enough for me.Nawtyit wrote:
Thank you for being so helpful in the past. I have another popular question for you.Would a +4 or +5 bane weapon, becoming +6 or +7, bypass DR/Epic against a creature it was bane to?
(+4 magical beast bane weapon bypasses Tarrasque’s DR 15/Epic, for example)Nope.
Well, no. Weapon enhancement CAN go past +5, at least it could in the epic rules of 3.5 (and some artifacts do even in Pathfinder.) However, the way I understand what James is saying is that the Bane feature doesn't actually turn that +5 into a +7 weapon. It's still only a +5 and will not bypass the DR, although with the added damage, maybe some will still get through.
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Well, no. Weapon enhancement CAN go past +5, at least it could in the epic rules of 3.5 (and some artifacts do even in Pathfinder.) However, the way I understand what James is saying is that the Bane feature doesn't actually turn that +5 into a +7 weapon. It's still only a +5 and will not bypass the DR, although with the added damage, maybe some will still get through.That's a far cry from saying the weapon enhancement doesn't go past +5, it's just a statement that Bane weapons aren't intended to be able to bypass DR/Epic. James has made it pretty clear that he doesn't believe there should be very many (if any) ways to bypass DR/Epic, and that's fine.Good enough for me.Nawtyit wrote:
Thank you for being so helpful in the past. I have another popular question for you.Would a +4 or +5 bane weapon, becoming +6 or +7, bypass DR/Epic against a creature it was bane to?
(+4 magical beast bane weapon bypasses Tarrasque’s DR 15/Epic, for example)Nope.
That's an awful lot to extrapolate from the word "Nope".
You can always pick up Blackaxe and be done with DR/epic...
*tries to wipe out the image of WoW raids farming Treerazer for his loot*
Ruyan.
Yeah the wizard would auto-hit with his 2-5 point damage magic missile and then get stomped on like an annoying bug on by the tarrasque. The paladin would swing and miss a few hundred times then get stepped on ACCIDENTALLY by the tarrasque. If he DID get lucky and roll a natural 20 on the same round he was using Smite (don't you have to use it and if you miss too bad?) at most he'd then become an annoying bug like the wizard was.There is a pretty good chance that Mr. Epic would have various immunities/resistances/shield spell too that a first level wizard could do nothing about. First level Paladins have an easier time getting around that sort of thing than high level Evokers do.First level Wizard bypass Dr Epic with Magic Missle. Hunky Dory.
First level Paldin bypass DR Epic with Smite. Nerf the infidels!!!!
Yes I know the Wizard MIGHT have to beat SR, the Paladin still needs to hit the AC.
First level paladin With a 20 str and a 20 charisma a Masterwork weapon and weapon focus will need a natural 20 to hit an an 33 or higher.
If you are fighting Epic mobs at first level either one goes splat. The paladin MIGHT last a bit longer with an 18 con giving him 14 hp to the wizards 10.... but probably not.
Your first level paladins are not going to be dealing with the Tarrasque.
I disagree completely that a First level paladin has an easier time getting around that sort of thing then a high level evoker.
Although I agree with you in principal, it's worth noting:
- Smite in PF lasts on a given target until that target is slain or the smiter rests, not just for a single round's worth of attacks.
- Paladins smite evil, and the Tarrasque is not, surprisingly enough, evil. So it'd be useless against Big T. :)
Otherwise, yes, carry on.
Could you not simply cast a spell, use a spell-like ability or an energy attack as they ignore damage reduction. (Core book page 562)
Is DR/- not better than DR/Epic as the former can not be ignored except by attacks stating that fact while DR/Epic can be ignore by +6?
The martial artist monk archetype can overcome any type of DR.
But, he has to make a wisdom check equal to the target's CR. At higher levels of mythic play that may be 40+ checks. Even if Wisdom's your single pumped stat(Say a +15, which means you have a 40 WIS btw) your max roll is still 35 for the check... One you have to make every round to get past dr.
It's not gonna happen. The only way that'd work would be to take the Universal Feat of Wisdom path and even then you'd have to burn a mythic power a round.
Martial Artist is one of my favorite monk archetypes but it doesn't do well in the mythic arena due to the scaling of adjusted cr's and wisdom scores. Which makes me a little sad, but it's the truth.
Edit for clariry.
Wait...40+ CR? Or is it CMD? I haven't played any of the archetypes for monks yet.
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The martial artist monk archetype can overcome any type of DR.But, he has to make a wisdom check equal to the target's CR. At higher levels of mythic play that may be 40+ checks. Even if Wisdom's your single pumped stat(Say a +15, which means you have a 40 WIS btw) your max roll is still 35 for the check... One you have to make every round to get past dr.
It's not gonna happen. The only way that'd work would be to take the Universal Feat of Wisdom path and even then you'd have to burn a mythic power a round.
Martial Artist is one of my favorite monk archetypes but it doesn't do well in the mythic arena due to the scaling of adjusted cr's and wisdom scores. Which makes me a little sad, but it's the truth.
Edit for clariry.
Yeah the ability doesn't really scale that well, but against low level mystic enemies it could be worth it.
Wait...40+ CR? Or is it CMD? I haven't played any of the archetypes for monks yet.
It's a wisdom check with monk level against the CR of the target + 10. Since mythic tiers add to the CR of the character but don't add to your monk levels, you're effectively losing levels against the CR of the creature. Even taking into account the boost to wisdom from tiers, the martial artist's Wisdom still scales slowly as the primary mechanic to get past dr at higher levels.
Sebastian Hirsch's right though, at low levels it's still effective as long as it's a cr effective encounter.
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This is an interesting problem with mythic. Regularly a tarrasque is CR 25, which a level 20 monk could make with a high wisdom score. Mythic levels will make abilities like this(and there are a few other "make a check against the enemies CR" useless)Wait...40+ CR? Or is it CMD? I haven't played any of the archetypes for monks yet.It's a wisdom check with monk level against the CR of the target + 10. Since mythic tiers add to the CR of the character but don't add to your monk levels, you're effectively losing levels against the CR of the creature. Even taking into account the boost to wisdom from tiers, the martial artist's Wisdom still scales slowly as the primary mechanic to get past dr at higher levels.
Sebastian Hirsch's right though, at low levels it's still effective as long as it's a cr effective encounter.
I believe this has been mentioned regarding spell resistance, it could certainly be a problem.
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Even taking into account the boost to wisdom from tiers, the martial artist's Wisdom still scales slowly as the primary mechanic to get past dr at higher levels.The unarmed attacks of a monk who takes the Epic DR guardian path ability at 3rd tier automatically overcome DR/epic. The monk doesn't have to rely on martial artist archetype features to do it.
Correct, I just wanted to point out, that a martial artist can use any weapon to overcome DR, not just his unarmed strikes.
On that note, with the level 1 guardian ability Absorb Blow, a monk could overcome DR for a limited time after use.
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Could you not simply cast a spell, use a spell-like ability or an energy attack as they ignore damage reduction. (Core book page 562)
Is DR/- not better than DR/Epic as the former can not be ignored except by attacks stating that fact while DR/Epic can be ignore by +6?
Below are a few of the tier 1 solutions for DR/Epic. All save the guardian ability ignore all DR, including DR/-.
As an alternate, you could simply hit hard enough to make DR meaningless.
You can expend one use of mythic
power to make a melee attack at your highest attack
bonus as a swift action (in addition to any other attacks
you might make this round). When making a sudden
attack, you roll twice and take the better result, adding
your champion tier as an insight bonus on the attack roll.
Damage from this attack bypasses damage reduction.
You can expend one use of mythic
power as an immediate action whenever a melee attack
is declared against you to force the creature making the
attack to roll twice and take the worse result. You also
add your guardian tier as an insight bonus to your AC
against this attack. Once the attack is resolved, you may
make one melee attack against the creature that made the
attack. The damage from this attack is treated as epic for
the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
You can expend one use of mythic
power as a swift action to order one ally within 30 feet to
make a melee or ranged attack in addition to any other
actions or attacks the ally might make on its turn. The
target adds your marshal tier as an insight bonus on
the attack roll. Any damage dealt by this attack bypasses
damage reduction.
You can expend one use of mythic power to make a melee or ranged attack at a target within
30 feet as a swift action (in addition to any other attacks
you might make this round). When you make a surprise
strike, the target is considered f lat-footed regardless of
any class features or abilities it might have, and you add
your trickster tier as an insight bonus on the attack roll.
Damage from this attack bypasses damage reduction.