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Could we perhaps set aside that discussion without either acknowledging or denying that proposition? Because it seems to me that the only other alternative would be to begin with some philosophical defining of terms such as "justify" and "unjust,"
I think the issue here is that most of us don't need to have the word "justice" defined for us every time we broach a new topic.
EDIT: I will be clearer. If there is any possible scenario under which you can consider the mass genocide of nearly the entirety of humanity justified - men, women, and children - then your belief system is so alien as to make communication between us impossible. I hope that that's not the case, and I hope instead that you were simply trying to avoid the topic because it makes you uncomfortable.
Not to mention other philosophical issues such as assigning guilt -- and agency in general -- to a piece of text.
This entire thread is a protracted study in how people have managed to convince themselves that D&D (ultimately, a piece of text) is responsible for people straying from faith.
I already did.
Magical silence.
Complaint made about this "off topic" dodginess.
People who complain the world's worst atrocities were in God's name (meaning the God of the Bible), are conflating human sin with biblical principles. Bed people justify bad things for a number of reasons. Sacking a village for gold and chick on your way to a "holy" crusade is not biblical behavior.Drowning the entirety of humanity in a flood, however, is. Shall we analyze the moral integrity of indiscriminate mass genocide? Or shall we just acknowledge that Christianity (including the Bible) is just as guilty of trying to justify unjust violence as any aspect of pop culture you care to criticize?Could we perhaps set aside that discussion without either acknowledging or denying that proposition? Because it seems to me that the only other alternative would be to begin with some philosophical defining of terms such as "justify" and "unjust," without which we could not have a meaningful discussion. Not to mention other philosophical issues such as assigning guilt -- and agency in general -- to a piece of text. That would all have to be quite far afield of the original point of this thread.
BUT: What I'm happy to acknowledge is that serious Christians absolutely *should* be willing to explore complicated and difficult questions of morality, because otherwise they will certainly not be able to understand what the Bible has to say about it. And (to return to the original point of this thread) RPGs and Pathfinder in particular can be good ways of exploring such questions.
I like the end of your post a lot. Yes, there is a lot of morality exploration potential.
As I said, before it got deleted. You can also explore the idea of good faiths and what that means, and avoid Christianity and its baggage entirely.
To clarify: if a post is made in response to a removed post, it also gets removed.
EDIT: I will be clearer. If there is any possible scenario under which you can consider the mass genocide of nearly the entirety of humanity justified - men, women, and children - then your belief system is so alien as to make communication between us impossible. I hope that that's not the case, and I hope instead that you were simply trying to avoid the topic because it makes you uncomfortable.
Oh, maybe because it's not meant to be taken literally but is meant to be symbolic of past cleansing and rebirth (so aren't you lucky you live now?).
In the case of the Genesis flood, in fact much of the Old Testament, it was probably written, expanded upon, and preserved to serve as a lesson to the people to listen to their priests and the word of god. After all, the various tribes always seem to prosper when they're pious and are always in trouble when they turn from god - at least, that's what the stories in the Old Testament, undoubtedly written or preserved by those self-same priests, are trying to tell you.
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EDIT: I will be clearer. If there is any possible scenario under which you can consider the mass genocide of nearly the entirety of humanity justified - men, women, and children - then your belief system is so alien as to make communication between us impossible. I hope that that's not the case, and I hope instead that you were simply trying to avoid the topic because it makes you uncomfortable.
Oh, maybe because it's not meant to be taken literally but is meant to be symbolic of past cleansing and rebirth (so aren't you lucky you live now?).
In the case of the Genesis flood, in fact much of the Old Testament, it was probably written, expanded upon, and preserved to serve as a lesson to the people to listen to their priests and the word of god. After all, the various tribes always seem to prosper when they're pious and are always in trouble when they turn from god - at least, that's what the stories in the Old Testament, undoubtedly written or preserved by those self-same priests, are trying to tell you.
If you can learn valuable lessons from the violent, misogynist, genocidal, racist and homophobic stories in the Bible, can't you also learn lessons from RPGs?
There are more stories in RPGs than just killing goblins and taking their stuff.
EDIT: I will be clearer. If there is any possible scenario under which you can consider the mass genocide of nearly the entirety of humanity justified - men, women, and children - then your belief system is so alien as to make communication between us impossible. I hope that that's not the case, and I hope instead that you were simply trying to avoid the topic because it makes you uncomfortable.
Oh, maybe because it's not meant to be taken literally but is meant to be symbolic of past cleansing and rebirth (so aren't you lucky you live now?).
In the case of the Genesis flood, in fact much of the Old Testament, it was probably written, expanded upon, and preserved to serve as a lesson to the people to listen to their priests and the word of god. After all, the various tribes always seem to prosper when they're pious and are always in trouble when they turn from god - at least, that's what the stories in the Old Testament, undoubtedly written or preserved by those self-same priests, are trying to tell you.
If you can learn valuable lessons from the violent, misogynist, genocidal, racist and homophobic stories in the Bible, can't you also learn lessons from RPGs?
Yeah education as well. A player of mine says he never really understood racism and ethnic nationalism until he played a very large and ambitious political game I put together in the Forgotten Realms. He came to really hate the cunning and greedy Sembians.
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Oh, maybe because it's not meant to be taken literally but is meant to be symbolic of past cleansing and rebirth (so aren't you lucky you live now?).
I should hope it's not, but if the flood is allegorical then that certainly places it squarely in the same category (fictional make-believe fantasy events that never really happened) as a tabletop RPG. So, again, having a problem with fake make-believe unjustified violence in Pathfinder and not having a problem with fake make-believe violence in the Bible sounds a lot like having a problem with tabletop RPGs and not having a problem with the Bible. I can't see any other difference.
Me neither.
What is the level of a flood spell anyway? Might have to check AD&D.
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Sigh.... D&D/Pathfinder/Any RPG are no more subversive than any other distraction that has been placed before us. The last time I checked there is nowhere in the bible where it says "Thou shalt not pretend to [fill in the blank]"
There are no real witches, demons, devils or magic in RPGs. It is all using the imagination God granted us.
The Phoenix VL is Young Earth creationist who plays Pathfinder just fine. He understands that it is just a game.
He's also a friend of mine, we just agree to disagree about certain things. But that is another story. :)
Good to know. Had a great time at his table, will remember to mind my words.
He's pretty laid back and tolerant about the whole thing...you'd have to work hard to offend him. That said, I've no doubt done it on occasion. :P
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Some people might have to work hard, but this is me we're talking about.
Ask him about fossils. : )
Oh, oh, wait, ask him how the speed of light used to be different to account for how the light from distant galaxies manages to reach us across millions of light-years in only ten thousand years! That's always good for a laugh!
Best not do it just before you have to make a saving throw, though...
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Drowning the entirety of humanity in a flood, however, is. Shall we analyze the moral integrity of indiscriminate mass genocide? Or shall we just acknowledge that Christianity (including the Bible) is just as guilty of trying to justify unjust violence as any aspect of pop culture you care to criticize?
Gene Roddenberry (yes, that Gene Roddenberry) once pointed out that if the Bible were adapted as a television script, "You cannot have an all-knowing supreme being who creates faulty humans and then blames them for His own mistake." He was using it as an example to show how the process of a television script gets revised by the censors, but that particular phrase has always stuck in my mind.
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Best not do it just before you have to make a saving throw, though...I have a policy that the only politics, religion, and sports discussions that should be happening at the game table are those involving the in-setting religions, countries, and sports teams.
I suppose you could have an orcish barbarian charge a paladin of Iomedae screaming his terrible, blood-curdling war-cry, 'Some of your religious dogma doesn't make any sense to meeeeeeeeeeeeeee!'
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Or, don't be a jerk to the guy because of his religious beliefs....
I'm willing to not talk about someone's beliefs as long as they don't bring them up.
I have respect for people. I have no respect for religion. You can find a relevant post from me about this distinction here. If you wholly define yourself by your adherence to that religion, it's easy to see why a person might be offended by that, but that's a choice and perspective that they have chosen.
If a person uses religion for self-improvement, mostly likely we'll never be at odds with each other. Its when they want to judge what I do, or try to push their rules onto other people that I have an issue. For example, judging my hobby as immoral. You could flip my earlier statement around on me, that I should just separate myself from the hobby, which is certainly true. I'm not offended, I don't feel that I'm being judged, but I'm also allowed to defend the hobby itself without taking the criticism as personal.
By judging the hobby, or implying judgement on the hobby, religion is brought into context in the conversation that opens itself up to judgement. Is the religion's critique of the hobby accurate and valid? That is valuable information, including within the context of this conversation.
Religion doesn't get a free pass IMO, merely because it claims the title of religion. If it does get a free pass, than what's to stop any claim from being declared "religion" and exempting it from critical scrutiny?
There are no real witches, demons, devils or magic in RPGs.
Incidentally, none of those excist in real life either. So worrying about them in a game seems doubly silly.
I have a policy that the only politics, religion, and sports discussions that should be happening at the game table are those involving the in-setting religions, countries, and sports teams.
Unless we're all hating on the Yankees. Because they deserve it.
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There are no real witches, demons, devils or magic in RPGs.Incidentally, none of those excist in real life either. So worrying about them in a game seems doubly silly.
Witches actually do exist. It's a religion with a fair number of followers.
The Jedi census phenomenon was, as reported, largely insincere; that is, people in the UK were urged to put it down as their religion for humorous reasons, or as a political protest against the question of religion being included on the census.
Wicca and other forms of neopaganism are fairly widespread, genuinely-held belief systems.
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@Jessica
Your taking a statement made within a certain context and applying it to a different context and pointing out how in this different context, the statement is false.
If I said "I can't jump high" you could point out that whatever distance I do jump would be measured with the term height, and if asking the question "How high can you jump?" the question would have an answer, proving I can jump high. While technically true, it ignores whatever context I may have made the statement.
Witches, as commonly held in the context of Christianity don't exist, such as those who were burned at the stake over various centuries, weren't actually what they were accused of being. I'd hazard a guess that most of them weren't Wiccan either.
Witches, as commonly held in the context of Christianity don't exist, such as those who were burned at the stake over various centuries, weren't actually what they were accused of being. I'd hazard a guess that most of them weren't Wiccan either.
Sure. Witches, defined as "people who have sold their soul to the devil and received occult powers in return" don't exist.
But then, they don't really exist as such in Pathfinder, either.
As far as whether they were Wiccan, no, they would not have identified themselves as such. In most cases, they were Christians who ran afoul of Christian authorities. But a significant portion of them were practitioners of religions modern-day Wiccans and other neopagans believe they are continuing.
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There are no real witches, demons, devils or magic in RPGs.Incidentally, none of those excist in real life either. So worrying about them in a game seems doubly silly.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.-Hamlet: Act I, Scene V
Witches, as Jessica pointed out, do exist. We are very real and we believe very strongly in the magick we perform.
As for demons and devils, well, the quotation speaks for itself.
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Or, don't be a jerk to the guy because of his religious beliefs....I'm willing to not talk about someone's beliefs as long as they don't bring them up.
I have respect for people. I have no respect for religion. You can find a relevant post from me about this distinction here. If you wholly define yourself by your adherence to that religion, it's easy to see why a person might be offended by that, but that's a choice and perspective that they have chosen.
If a person uses religion for self-improvement, mostly likely we'll never be at odds with each other. Its when they want to judge what I do, or try to push their rules onto other people that I have an issue. For example, judging my hobby as immoral. You could flip my earlier statement around on me, that I should just separate myself from the hobby, which is certainly true. I'm not offended, I don't feel that I'm being judged, but I'm also allowed to defend the hobby itself without taking the criticism as personal.
By judging the hobby, or implying judgement on the hobby, religion is brought into context in the conversation that opens itself up to judgement. Is the religion's critique of the hobby accurate and valid? That is valuable information, including within the context of this conversation.
Religion doesn't get a free pass IMO, merely because it claims the title of religion. If it does get a free pass, than what's to stop any claim from being declared "religion" and exempting it from critical scrutiny?
You appear to have missed the context in which I made that remark. It was a direct reply to the post above mine, in which another poster recommended asking some point-scoring kinds of questions to taunt someone who is known to be a young earth creationist.
Now if you're in a discussion about creationism or whatever, rock on. But if you happen to know that somebody believes something differently than you and you start playing 20 questions in an effort to make them look like an idiot, shame on you. That's damn rude.
I'm curious, where in my post did I imply I'd play 20 questions, or grill someone?
In fact, I think you'll find a very direct and concise response to your post if you reread the first sentence again. Reread it, tell me what you think, it was entirely intended to apply to the context of the post I quoted.
Unless we're all hating on the Yankees. Because they deserve it.Only in ironic hipster fashion of hating.
No, no. I assure you that outside of NYC most hate of the Yankees is quite sincere. Every sport needs a bad guy team, and for baseball, that's the Yankees.
Witches actually do exist. It's a religion with a fair number of followers.There are no real witches, demons, devils or magic in RPGs.Incidentally, none of those excist in real life either. So worrying about them in a game seems doubly silly.
As Irontruth has already pointed out, witches, in the same context as demons, devils and magic, doesn't exist in real life. And the assertion was in RPGs, which isn't just Pahtfinder (although Pathfinder does have the Witch class).
Not a single human being has so far been able to document the manifestation of magical powers, no matter what titulation they've granted themselves.There are no real witches, demons, devils or magic in RPGs.Incidentally, none of those excist in real life either. So worrying about them in a game seems doubly silly.There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.-Hamlet: Act I, Scene V
Witches, as Jessica pointed out, do exist. We are very real and we believe very strongly in the magick we perform.
As for demons and devils, well, the quotation speaks for itself.
You might believe ever so strongly in the "magick" you "perform," doesn't make it any more real than devils, demons, leprechauns, satyrs or unicorns. Not a single one of you can cast an actual "spell" or brew a "magic" potion.
And a quotation from a play is proof that devils and demons exist in what way exactly?Anyone thinking they possess such powers are welcome to prove themselves (and may become quite rich in the process*).
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Okay....some responses:
Folk who don't believe frequently ascribe human qualities to God in an effort to understand him. If God were a flawed human and people were not eternal creatures, the Flood would indeed be mass genocide.
However, since the Bible teaches that God is eternal and sovereign, and that life here is a blip on the radar, the need for God to provide justice in a world full of sin, sickness and death mandates God take a pretty hard line. Note that to God, we are created, and we exist eternally after that. Note also that the Flood wiped out a straight up abominable population of people who were very busy raping and killing one another.
I am not a linguist and I don't have the right term for this concept. But understand: if you don't believe in a God or a historic flood or in the problem of sin leading to death in the world, you aren't going to place the Flood in context. You're going to judge God as an equal on your own terms and that means you can ascribe all manner of evils to him. But if he is sovereign, if he created us and has the power to make, redeem, destroy, etc, then you have a different context for what is right and what is wrong. You might say "no, Steve. Killing people is always wrong. What's the matter with you?" But then you're doing it again - God created us to be moral, perfect people who choose to worship him. By sin death enters the world. To show the world that he is a)sovereign, and b) the problem can't just be blamed on Adam or some malcontents who taught us poorly, he resets creation. Those he saved after they died in the flood are save eternally...their life here was over but their life elsewhere continues.
There is a remarkable difference between what you might see as arbitrary murder, and what the creator of the universe sees as a step in a long plan to save us from something we're already screwed for. I'd ask you to try to understand that the existence of an almighty God requires a change in your perceptions about what he can and can't morally do. If you were to claim that Steve cannot justly start the world over by Flood, you'd be absolutely accurate. Nor even fantastic, holy people. But a sinless God has a different perspective. The world's people rejected their creator and already chose death.
I admit the Flood is a pretty sensitive example, but I am convinced the context of believing in God reasonably changes how we respond to him.
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A second inelegant response: I absolutely agree that faith ought be challenged and discussed. The Bible is full of people who questioned God or his intentions. God welcomes questions. He understands doubt. He hates when flawed people judge him from their limited perspective.
Which doesn't mean I haven't done it anyway.
No, no. I assure you that outside of NYC most hate of the Yankees is quite sincere. Every sport needs a bad guy team, and for baseball, that's the Yankees.Unless we're all hating on the Yankees. Because they deserve it.Only in ironic hipster fashion of hating.
I hated the Yankees before it was cool.
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There are no real witches, demons, devils or magic in RPGs.Incidentally, none of those excist in real life either. So worrying about them in a game seems doubly silly.There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.-Hamlet: Act I, Scene V
Witches, as Jessica pointed out, do exist. We are very real and we believe very strongly in the magick we perform.
As for demons and devils, well, the quotation speaks for itself.
You might believe ever so strongly in the "magick" you "perform," doesn't make it any more real than devils, demons, leprechauns, satyrs or unicorns. Not a single one of you can cast an actual "spell" or brew a "magic" potion.
And a quotation from a play is proof that devils and demons exist in what way exactly?Anyone thinking they possess such powers are welcome to prove themselves (and may become quite rich in the process*).
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Please be careful in how you discuss other people's religions. Contempt and scare quotes aren't really civil whether you're discussing Christianity, Wicca, or any other religion. You're free to disagree, but please do so respectfully.