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Much as I enjoy a rousing debate with religious types, or 'God-botherers' as they are affectionately known, I've resolved not to heckle....in this particular thread. : )
People need a safe place to discuss stuff, and I respect that. The LGBT community has it's own thread, and I can't imagine posting disparaging remarks there. Then again, I'm not disposed to heckle them anywhere.
So, I'm offering this next part in all seriousness.
Have you read the Old Testament? 'Fluffy', it is not! It's hard to reconcile a claim that the faithful should avoid violent stories, while at the same time going door to door recommending that everyone read the Bible and be inspired by it! Genocide, offering your wife and daughter to be raped by a mob, the execution of the entire population of the world by flood (apart from one family)....I could go on. When I read the Bible I like to wind down by playing RPGs, because killing goblins and taking their stuff is considerably less violent than the contents of the Bible.
And a common stumbling block to a Christian's faith is role playing.
No, it's not. A common stumbling block to a Christian's faith is whatever other, more self-righteous Christians tell them is a stumbling block to their faith. I never once questioned or even considered that D&D might clash with my faith until a wretch of a woman told me that D&D is "un-Christian" and ordered me to pray with her for my salvation. Mind you, I didn't question it after that, either, but I definitely realized that someone impressionable could be easily led by others to believe that something was a crisis-waiting-to-happen when it isn't.
This thread is doing exactly that: a Christian browsing the forums stumbles across "How Do Christians Play Pathfinder Without Compromising Their Faith?" and suddenly they're thinking, "I never realized Pathfinder was a danger to my faith!" along with all the thoughts that naturally follow. I'm glad the discussion is being had, for the sake of those who actually were struggling with it and wondering if a conflict necessarily exists. I just wish it were not framed in such a way as to suggest that Pathfinder is naturally a danger to faith.
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I'm glad the discussion is being had, for the sake of those who actually were struggling with it and wondering if a conflict necessarily exists.
I am glad that this discussion is being had as well. I think it's great that D&D did not clash with your faith. But when it comes down to brass tacks, ANYTHING can be a stumbling block to someone's faith; including a game such as Pathfinder. So just because you or I do not have a problem with playing D&D or Pathfinder, that does not mean that another Christian cannot have a problem with playing D&D or Pathfinder. That is why it is up to each and every Christian to decide for themselves if something that they do, no matter how harmless it may seem to the outside world, is interfering with their personal walk with Christ... And NOTHING should get in the way of that walk, even something as simple as a game.
And yes, there are religious zealots out there that like to thump their Bibles and claim that this or that is a sin or is just outright evil. But this is why, when a Christian is having an issue of faith, that they need to seek out and talk with other Christians about the issue. They need to read their Bibles and open up their hearts and really listen to what the Lord is telling them. That is a part of what "Fellowshipping" with other Christians is all about; it gives us a chance to hear from others that share our faith and our beliefs, and get to know how they feel about issues that we as Christians have to deal with (even the issue of this thread's title).
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You basically just said that the issue is that there are issues.
It's more along the lines of why religious/spiritual people may have issues with the game that others may not, and how one can understand the reasoning behind them.
They are not required to do anything. Their character probably worships a deity. But they are not their character. They are two separate things. This is make-believe. If a make-believe fantasy world manages to threaten someone's real-world faith, their real-world faith is paper thin.
Or, there could be other reasons. Just assuming that one has a weak, or a questioning faith is the wrong answer. If the game assumes that everyone worships one of the gods in the setting (for the most part), with the only alternatives being equally or even more undesirable for the individual, particularly if they are the type of person that uses the game as a method of dealing with some real life issues, (I had a tough day, I just want to smack some evil and relax) or tend to have view their characters more strongly along the lines of an extension of themselves, or a heroic idealized version, than they tend to view the characters choices as more important. And if something in the game conflicts with something you strongly believe outside of the game, just saying "well it's just a game" might, depending on the specifics, might not make a difference. As an example, if you are playing a game in the Hold of Belkzen, well rape, murder, and lootin' & pillagin' are perfectly accepted and expected behaviors. If a player has an issue with playing out raping people and being rewarded for it, does that likewise make their faith, morality, or philosophy paper thin? Probably not right?
Under certain circumstances. Which is fine, because the Bible rewards violent actions under certain circumstances. The Church has rewarded violent actions under certain circumstances. This is nothing new, and, again, would serve as an example of paper-thin faith.
But the game does reward violence in certain circumstances. It rewards it as the de facto way of life for adventurers. It rewards it, not for righteous actions, or holy wars, or just for smiting demons and slaying evil dragons. It rewards it in all things. You also missed the point completely. I'm not going to have a religious argument about the Bible and views of context, but that was not what I said. I said that if people have an issue with violence, particularly unjustified violence by a modern, real world standard, the base assumption of the game is a hurdle, (and not automatically even a mainly religious one). The same can be said with how the game assumes that lying, stealing, intimidation, and other unethical solutions are acceptable means to solve a problem in the game. It has nothing to do with having a paper thin faith, and more to do with, do you (general) think it's ok to track down a guy that stole a candy bar (or a blueray or even stole someone's car) from a store, beat him/her to death or till they drop, and then rob them of all their money and stuff you can carry, (maybe hiring other people to carry even more) and call it a good day? Again, probably not right? yet, in the game, that is both perfectly fine, and even the way it is meant to work.
It doesn't strike you as problematic (or, perhaps, indicative of a larger, more personal issue that you have neglected to examine) that you believe that your real-world faith dictates that you can't comfortably play a honest-to-God Cleric in a make-believe fantasy world?
Note, that this was the only one I personally had an issue with. All the others are just examples of things people might have issue with, and again, ways that people who do not can either understand, or change the game or playstyle to make it more acceptable. Again, you are taking it an a direction I didn't mean. My issue in this case is that the game directly conflicts (unnecessarily) with a tenet I hold. Saying it's just a make-belief game, in this case, from my point of view is just an excuse which sweeps it under the rug rather than solve or help the issue. I'm more of an old school gamer, and I do not define the "honest to god Cleric" (as an example) as a faithless slave of a fictional god. (that's more of a personal issue than religious one that just doesn't sit well with me and lacks, well, maturity and scope in design). My religious issue is that if I <player> want to play the character type I want, (a divine holy crusader, calling on heavenly aid, Cleric, Paladin, etc. . .) that I <character> have to (in Golarion/Pathfinder and Forgotten Realms) be associated with a fictional deity that I <player> am not comfortable with. Saying it's just fantasy doesn't change the fact that in my opinion, it's either breaking or getting extremely close to breaking the tenet of not having any other gods before G-d, (which actually means before, in front of, within sight of). I do not think it's going to make me cheat on G-d and allow a demon or Sarenrae to hitch a ride on my soul's back, or whatever. I do think it's something G-d would not like of me. If you think it's a sign of a weak faith, fine, that's your opinion. I'm really not sure why you need o bash the idea, (or if that was your intent, that's how it kind of came of). I'm not telling you how to play, I am identifying something I see as an issue, for me, and maybe others, and I view it as a strength of my faith and self understanding. Again, my opinion.
You also missed the point completely. I'm not going to have a religious argument about the Bible and views of context, but that was not what I said. I said that if people have an issue with violence, particularly unjustified violence by a modern, real world standard, the base assumption of the game is a hurdle, (and not automatically even a mainly religious one).
No, you missed my point. If someone has an issue with unjustified violence, the Bible will prove a bigger stumbling block than any game could.
I mean, you've read it, right?
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No, you missed my point. If someone has an issue with unjustified violence, the Bible will prove a bigger stumbling block than any game could.
I mean, you've read it, right?
Yes, and studied it. Pretty easy to pick and choose and take what you want out of context, but that is not the point, and also not something we are going to argue here.
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Yes, and studied it. Pretty easy to pick and choose and take what you want out of context, but that is not the point, and also not something we are going to argue here.
You can't just say, "That is not the point," just because you don't like the point it's making. Criticizing something as dangerous-to-the-faithful merely because it contains unjustified violence is brutally ironic, because, by that same metric, the Bible itself should be viewed as a danger (worse, it is using that same unjustified violence to persuade you to follow a religion - which, if you brought to your pastor/priest and left out the fact that it was found in a book called the Bible, would probably result in him cautioning you to stay the hell away from it). So, if that's what you really believe, then I suggest removing that particular plank from your eye before going after the speck that is violence in tabletop RPGs.
And even if it were true that something as benign as tabletop gaming could cause one to stray from a faith they otherwise adhered to, shouldn't it be considered a good thing that the shakiness of their faith was made clear through that, instead of through, say, actual immoral behavior?
And, as a side note, we Christians do not get to criticize anyone for picking and choosing. Ever.
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but that is not the point, and also not something we are going to argue here.
You can't just say, "That is not the point,"
Actually yes, I can, because it's not the point. You are trying to argue something that no one else is talking about. It is likewise NOT another thread about racism or antigay, or whatever. I think you have stepped into the wrong forum or are intentionally trying to get this one locked.
I'm glad the discussion is being had, for the sake of those who actually were struggling with it and wondering if a conflict necessarily exists.I am glad that this discussion is being had as well. I think it's great that D&D did not clash with your faith. But when it comes down to brass tacks, ANYTHING can be a stumbling block to someone's faith; including a game such as Pathfinder. So just because you or I do not have a problem with playing D&D or Pathfinder, that does not mean that another Christian cannot have a problem with playing D&D or Pathfinder. That is why it is up to each and every Christian to decide for themselves if something that they do, no matter how harmless it may seem to the outside world, is interfering with their personal walk with Christ... And NOTHING should get in the way of that walk, even something as simple as a game.
And yes, there are religious zealots out there that like to thump their Bibles and claim that this or that is a sin or is just outright evil. But this is why, when a Christian is having an issue of faith, that they need to seek out and talk with other Christians about the issue. They need to read their Bibles and open up their hearts and really listen to what the Lord is telling them. That is a part of what "Fellowshipping" with other Christians is all about; it gives us a chance to hear from others that share our faith and our beliefs, and get to know how they feel about issues that we as Christians have to deal with (even the issue of this thread's title).
This.
Everyone's experiences are different. Where your from, what background you have, and who you play with. Claiming that one person is somehow less then another because they have issues that you don't is insane.
Claiming that how you spend your free time and entertainment does not affect your personal beliefs is an opinion. Heck, Claiming that you yourself are not affected by the media you play or watch is an opinion. Only a trained psychiatrist and indepth study would REALLY know for sure.
Who you are and what you do are shaped by hundreds of different factors and no one game or experience will ever take the full blame.
However, Claiming that there is NO effect on ANYONE is just plain wrong. Claiming that a RPG is the same as Monopoly or Chess is just plain wrong.
People SHOULD be concerned about how Role-playing will affect their lives. There is a massive desensitizing going on in the culture now days. Whether RPGs are a cause... or a result is a matter of debate. But it is an expression of your personal beliefs.
Just look at the various Alignment threads to see that there is a VAST difference between what people consider to be 'good'. If you don't want to be the kind of person who looks at violence against a human being as 'He had it coming'... then you can't pretend 2-3 times a week that someone who crossed you 'had it coming'. If you say things enough times, it will affect you.
The most important thing in a gamers experience and whether someone should REALLy be concerned about gaming in general... is the group you play with.
I play with a GREAT group, and our games are about good guys overcoming the bad guys. Frankly I feel no threat to my faith at all from these games.
I have heard the horror stories of OTHER groups though. There have been White wolf games where women were 'forced' to simulate sex acts becasue they were 'charmed'... There are people who love to play 'evil' characters and sit around plotting murders. Heck White wolf released the 'slasher' game where the PLAYERS could be the serial killers... I played with a different group in college that thought Marvel Super heroes should in fact have my male cop character get raped by a female cop character was HILARIOUS.... I did not play with them again.
Pathfinder is a rule set. There is nothing inherently wrong with a set of rules. However, pretending to be evil and do despicable things... SHOULD be a warning sign to parents, the church, and especially themselves.
There IS a dark side to the gaming community... honestly, there are a dark side to christianity too. Many people who claim to be christians OR gamers I wouldn't want representing my beliefs.
This doesn't even talk about the OTHER dangers that RPGs have.... Monetary, time, focus... People have spent thousands of dollarz and thousands of hours on a 'game' that frankly could have been spent on better pursuits.
Gaming in college (with the main group... not the 'other' group) are some of my favorite memories ever... however, I DID flunk out and am trying to go back 15 yeas later...
Others did NOT. But in MY experience, Gaming was a cause of my failing at life... It would have been BETTER for me if I had NOT been as obsessed as I was.
To quote Darth Vader:
"There is no conflict."
RPG Superstar 2013
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A few thoughts since I haven't been in this discussion in a while.
About the faith in general:
People who complain that God advocates horrible social ills like slavery and such have read some cherry-picked cynic's commentary about Scripture. Please don't respond with "yeah-huh, it says so in this one verse". If you want to discuss whether the Bible advocates such things, it's not as easy as simple cherry-picking. Shift your position back to neutral on the matter and we can talk about it civilly.
But the short answer for all those things is this: God had a perfect plan to gift creation to his son. Sin got in the way, and so God has been working through imperfect servants ever since. Some do the wrong thing and think they do right. Some enjoy the personal power brought by speaking for God (conferred by people, not by God) and do wrong things. So, God wroked through people in less than ideal conditions. He didn't want them to have a king, but they demanded it. SO the kings they got were largely dill holes. As you review scripture, recognize that rules for work, marriage, servants, kings, sacrifices, war and all that is tainted by the sin condition that complicates God's vision and necessitates a Savior.
A tangential bone I have to pick here: someone mentioned that Christians go on crusades against nonbelivers. Corrupt influences in the church have made unquestioned trouble, but I am not sure there are any examples of the church going on crusades against peaceful nonbelievers. Moors inpursuit of Jihad are a different thing. Freeing a holy land from bloodthirsty invaders is a different thing. I assure you, if there are accurate historical examples of Christianity setting out to butcher nonbelievers, the perpetraitors of that behavior were not following Biblical principle.
About gaming as a Christian
Others may disagree, but that's how I see it.
Just look at the various Alignment threads to see that there is a VAST difference between what people consider to be 'good'.
Yes, because moral relativism was never an issue before D&D!
There IS a dark side to the gaming community...
There is a potentially dark side to nearly everything. If you stop to agonize over whether you're being led astray by every aspect of culture you come into contact with, you'll end up like...well, like some Christians I know.
If it strikes you as problematic, look into it. But don't act like everyone (or even all Christians) need to take a good hard look at D&D or Pathfinder or whatever. It's a game, and it's not going to put your faith in jeopardy unless your faith was looking for a way out to begin with.
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People who complain the world's worst atrocities were in God's name (meaning the God of the Bible), are conflating human sin with biblical principles. Bed people justify bad things for a number of reasons. Sacking a village for gold and chick on your way to a "holy" crusade is not biblical behavior.
Drowning the entirety of humanity in a flood, however, is. Shall we analyze the moral integrity of indiscriminate mass genocide? Or shall we just acknowledge that Christianity (including the Bible) is just as guilty of trying to justify unjust violence as any aspect of pop culture you care to criticize?
Well, in fairness, there have been a lot more horrible things done based on the Bible than based on any RPG. A lot more good things as well.
I'm also pretty much against the idea that entertainment (or art?) can have no effect on how people think.
Which is different than saying violent video games cause you to kill people. Different because people are complicated and there are few simple black and white answers about how they work.
I think this post sums up things rather well.
There are no black and white answers to corral people into.It's up to the individual, to decide whether his faith can handle RPGs or not. If it's causeing a conflict, then one needs to re-examine either his faith or his hobby.
I'm also getting really tired of the sky fairy talk. It's incredibly disrespectful, and has been flagged where found.
People who complain the world's worst atrocities were in God's name (meaning the God of the Bible), are conflating human sin with biblical principles. Bed people justify bad things for a number of reasons. Sacking a village for gold and chick on your way to a "holy" crusade is not biblical behavior.Drowning the entirety of humanity in a flood, however, is. Shall we analyze the moral integrity of indiscriminate mass genocide? Or shall we just acknowledge that Christianity (including the Bible) is just as guilty of trying to justify unjust violence as any aspect of pop culture you care to criticize?
Yep. :D
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People who complain the world's worst atrocities were in God's name (meaning the God of the Bible), are conflating human sin with biblical principles. Bed people justify bad things for a number of reasons. Sacking a village for gold and chick on your way to a "holy" crusade is not biblical behavior.Drowning the entirety of humanity in a flood, however, is. Shall we analyze the moral integrity of indiscriminate mass genocide? Or shall we just acknowledge that Christianity (including the Bible) is just as guilty of trying to justify unjust violence as any aspect of pop culture you care to criticize?
Could we perhaps set aside that discussion without either acknowledging or denying that proposition? Because it seems to me that the only other alternative would be to begin with some philosophical defining of terms such as "justify" and "unjust," without which we could not have a meaningful discussion. Not to mention other philosophical issues such as assigning guilt -- and agency in general -- to a piece of text. That would all have to be quite far afield of the original point of this thread.
BUT: What I'm happy to acknowledge is that serious Christians absolutely *should* be willing to explore complicated and difficult questions of morality, because otherwise they will certainly not be able to understand what the Bible has to say about it. And (to return to the original point of this thread) RPGs and Pathfinder in particular can be good ways of exploring such questions.