Storytelling Mechanics...

[MendedWall12]

Mythic Adventures Playtest page 3 wrote:

Attaining a new mythic tier requires completing difficult trials within the campaign’s story rather than accumulating experience points.

This and pretty much all of page 35. The mythic tiers are all but directly tied to GM fiat/table consensus of story elements. I guess the Mythic Playtest introduces the idea that Pathfinder might really be a storytelling game, at least at the Mythic level. :P

[Jason Bulmahn]

I felt it important to tie the power of Mythic more intrinsically to the story of the game. These are not the sorts of powers that one earns as a matter of routine. Even in advancement, they needed a "mythic" element.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Dale McCoy Jr]

Hooray for less mass genocide of kobolds to get to high levels.

[Pendin Fust]

I really like the "yet mythic adventurers would not only take on the dragon, but track down and smite its relatives just for good measure." Already gives me some ideas for story!

[David knott 242]

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Hooray for less mass genocide of kobolds to get to high levels.

Yes -- I think killing the entire kobold race would count as only a single greater trial. What would be very annoying would be the GM telling you after each massacre, "You still missed a few."

[MendedWall12]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

I felt it important to tie the power of Mythic more intrinsically to the story of the game. These are not the sorts of powers that one earns as a matter of routine. Even in advancement, they needed a "mythic" element.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

And I absolutely applaud you for it. I sometimes get a little tired of the argument that Pathfinder isn't a game designed to tell stories. Having an actual "mechanical" element that is directly tied to what a character does in the story, is fantastic, and will more than likely be quoted as support in future discussions. :)

[Flamehawke]

This will settle in perfectly into my campaign as I intend for them to face a powerful Lich and then a Dracolich. Currently they are trying to break a curse on a race that was placed by a god and trying to uncover the phylactery of the Dracolich by finding the pieces of an ancient heroes broken sword.

And yes my group is very story and RP focused with lots of character development. Lots of storytelling. My basic look over tells me that this will help enhance those stories immensely!

[Lord Embok]

I don't use exp and I don't intend to use the 'trials' requirement either. Greater trials are fine since they're basically what I'll do anyway, but lesser trials are waaaaay too meta-gamey for me. Some of them are pretty cool, but others feel like WoW achievements you actively go out of your way (and tell your party/raid to help with) to get.

[leo1925]

Lord Embok wrote:

I don't use exp and I don't intend to use the 'trials' requirement either. Greater trials are fine since they're basically what I'll do anyway, but lesser trials are waaaaay too meta-gamey for me. Some of them are pretty cool, but others feel like WoW achievements you actively go out of your way (and tell your party/raid to help with) to get.

You understand that completing lesser trials is needed in order to regain mythic power "points"?

[Lord Embok]

Yes. Your point?

[Hama]

Was clearly stated in his post.

[leo1925]

Lord Embok wrote:

Yes. Your point?

I haven't yet playtested the mythic rules (so my opinion might change) but i feel that the extra power points gained from copleting lesser trials might be needed.

[thejeff]

Pendin Fust wrote:

I really like the "yet mythic adventurers would not only take on the dragon, but track down and smite its relatives just for good measure." Already gives me some ideas for story!

Familicide!

Be careful

[Asgetrion]

Hmmm... after a quick read-through, I have to say I like what I see. I can see 4E influences here and there, but they've been implemented and transformed really nicely into PF mechanics. I just wonder how these rules will interact with the Epic Level stuff, if such a book will eventually be published? I mean, a mythic +20 bonus on initiative rolls goes, IMO, beyond epic; hence it's difficult to see what would qualify as "epic" in PF. But that is a topic for another day...

What I love most is the whole Moment of Ascension and Trials thing; the PCs are about to face momentous/epic events in my campaign, and I've been a bit unsure if they're up to the task (i.e. tough enough). These rules might fit the bill nicely; some of them might be fated to become Mythic characters, some might undergo a transformation as their deities bestow them with a portion of divine power. I also like it that Mythic rules are another mechanical "layer" that does not need to be a permanent "upgrade".

When I first heard of the Mythic stuff, I expected not to like it, but my first impression is actually quite positive. :)

[Pendin Fust]

HAH! I like it thejeff!

[Lord Embok]

Hama wrote:

Was clearly stated in his post.

No, it wasn't. He stated a fact, but didn't use it to form an actual argument. That changed in his next post though.

leo1925 wrote:

Lord Embok wrote:

Yes. Your point?

I haven't yet playtested the mythic rules (so my opinion might change) but i feel that the extra power points gained from copleting lesser trials might be needed.

I disagree. Resources are meant to be exhaustible. If players are spamming mythic points every round, they should run out. Additionally, the quantity of points regenerated this way probably would not be significant anyway - if they were, the requirement of lesser trials to level up would be meaningless. Though yes, play testing is obviously required to verify this.

Plus of course, as DM there's always the option of just saying 'okay what you did was pretty cool, have a mythic point' even if I don't use the specific lesser trials.

[HangarFlying]

Asgetrion wrote:

Hmmm... after a quick read-through, I have to say I like what I see. I can see 4E influences here and there, but they've been implemented and transformed really nicely into PF mechanics. I just wonder how these rules will interact with the Epic Level stuff, if such a book will eventually be published? I mean, a mythic +20 bonus on initiative rolls goes, IMO, beyond epic; hence it's difficult to see what would qualify as "epic" in PF. But that is a topic for another day...

It is my understanding that this is Paizo's version of Epic level gaming—there won't be an Epic level book.

[Mikaze]

thejeff wrote:

Pendin Fust wrote:

I really like the "yet mythic adventurers would not only take on the dragon, but track down and smite its relatives just for good measure." Already gives me some ideas for story!

Familicide!

Be careful

That's one reason that line really bugged me. :)

[Asgetrion]

HangarFlying wrote:

Asgetrion wrote:

Hmmm... after a quick read-through, I have to say I like what I see. I can see 4E influences here and there, but they've been implemented and transformed really nicely into PF mechanics. I just wonder how these rules will interact with the Epic Level stuff, if such a book will eventually be published? I mean, a mythic +20 bonus on initiative rolls goes, IMO, beyond epic; hence it's difficult to see what would qualify as "epic" in PF. But that is a topic for another day...

It is my understanding that this is Paizo's version of Epic level gaming—there won't be an Epic level book.

Really? For some reason I wasn't aware of that. Well, it does make sense, in a good way. Even this first draft is light-years better than the 3E epic level rules.

Wow, mixing epic stuff into your low-level campaign without breaking a sweat... brilliant, Jason, brilliant! :)

[Jon Goranson]

leo1925 wrote:

You understand that completing lesser trials is needed in order to regain mythic power "points"?

Unless I'm missing something, it says that their pool of mythic power replenishes daily. What lesser trials allow is the ability to refresh a mythic power point during the day. (pg 4: "You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to your mythic tier plus your mythic ability score’s bonus.") However, I really like your idea! I think making a lesser trial the only way they can regain mythic power would be a cool idea!

What I don't like is the number of greater trials that have to be done in a character's lifetime to achieve the next tier. The definition of a Greater Trial is "Greater trials are important to the world and the story around the mythic character. These trials are usually accomplished by a group of characters and are decided upon by the Game Master." (pg 20) The problem comes from using that to define what a Greater Trial is. Let's say we define it as an AP, the idea being it's a long term adventure that changes the world for the better or worse. To get to tier two requires one Greater Trial. To get to tier three requires three total Great Trials. Tier four requires five total Greater Trials. And so on until tier ten which requires twenty nine total Greater Trials! Um, really? There haven't even been that many APs published! (They are on their 11th and the 12th starts soon.) That puts them at tier six.

Now, no, they don't need those specific APs to achieve this in that a DM might come up with their own Greater Trials. Most APs, or the idea of them for DMs who aren't using those specifically, take a character from level one to level fourteen or so. That means it takes fourteen levels to achieve tier two (for their one Greater Trial) but then the rest are gained over the remaining five levels? Does that seem right? And then the question remains, should Greater Trials get easier as would be the case of a 14th level character starting the next AP as written (to follow the clues or path to the end) or stay the same level of effort? And how can it be the same level of effort when the system only has twenty levels? And these problems exist for the Lesser Trials as well.

Dale McCoy Jr above posted that this would reduce "mass kobold genocide" to achieve these goals but that's not the case. Mass Obliteration makes no requirements on the relative level of the six or more creatures that must be defeated with one spell to count. And to continue that thought, Counter Caster also doesn't define anything other than three spells from one caster. Does it count if the Mythic character is fifteenth level and using Greater Dispel against a fifth level caster? (Again, those poor kobolds.) Any of the lesser trials seem to be usable against kobolds! Survive the Tide, Maneuver Display, Massive Swing, Wrestler and many others also don't specify the level needed and that's in direct contrast with Legendary Strike which does have a level and Mythic tier requirement. Further, those that do require at least a Mythic creature don't list level, such as Swift Doom, Solo Warrior, and Deadly Duo so again, that mythic kobold (kobold/Mythic 1) who is trying to help his people just got killed by the (class 14/Mythic 1) PC trying to achieve that lesser trial.

Further, some of those example Lesser Trials could be done by non mythic characters easily. Again, poor kobolds! But a regular fireball even with minimum damage could take out as many kobolds as it hits. If they are high enough, Maximized fireball could take out ogres or maybe even trolls! Maneuver Display just requires four combat rounds with a successful maneuver each round! It might be tough for a non mythic character but not impossible.

I guess what I'm asking is whether or not the trials to achieve mythic level need some requirements that non mythic people can't achieve? (Yes that brings up the question of how a non mythic becomes mythic as well as what the mythic characters fight but I'm not talking about that at the moment.)

I love the idea of stepping outside of the xp system for the mythic character to advance in tiers. But maybe it either needs to be toned down from "world level" to regional level?

Having said all of that, if the idea was to use Mythic levels to define the gods, then it makes sense that to gain godhood, the character in question had to do so many world affecting events such that a major portion of the world knew who they were. Then, I don't know if this is a matter of definitions and role playing ideas that we haven't seen yet? Or if this mechanic requirement needs to be redone.

I think the problem is that I like the ideas of the Mythic tiers a lot and if this is what was done, I could get use out of it. But I'm wondering if what is more needed is advice on how a DM goes about setting up a mythic situation and then how a player takes advantage of that with their character? How do the player and DM work together to set a character on the mythic path and then advance along that path? Does it have to be an intentional act on the part of the character or could it be done accidentally? Does there have to be a specific goal in mind (replace a god? become a god's messenger? kill all kobolds?) or can the character wander around the world doing these things to gain power? Because if it's the second thing, how is the different from non mythic levels?

JG