I assume you speak of higher level encounters?I have never seen nor heard a game in which a fighter was useless. A fighter always contributes one way or the other and I can promise you that he always contributes in the fighting department.
I think people need to step back and take a look at how things go round by round starting with number 1.
Okay round 1 what are you doing?
Paladin: Okay I am using my standard action to activate Divine Bond and I move.
Wizard: I cast a buff on myself.
Cleric: I cast a buff on another party member.
Fighter: I run up and attack or I pull out my bow as I move and I attack.
Fighter doesn't have to buff nor does he need to get into position. He either fires with his bow or he moves up with his sword. He doesn't have to worry about effects such as Rage or Favored Enemy to do his job. His damage is going to be continuous no matter who he's fighting and a lot of people that I know, love that dependability.
The problem is that they're not dependable in a real game, they're dependable in a vacuum. They have some of the worst defenses in the game; fortitude is their only good save and bravery is the only class feature that helps with saves. They've got spare feats to take Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, and Iron Will, but that's where the party ends.
That means that a fighter is going to need to either spend precious consumable resources to recover when he fails a save (if it didn't result in immediate death or becoming a lawn ornament), or rely on party members to fix him up after most fights.
Edit: Also given that a lot of fights go much longer than one round, I'm not so sure getting an extra attack at the start of the fight is really all that great.
Mid-low to low-mid encounters as well. Also, unless your GM just picks 1 creature of CR X and throws it at a party of 4+ characters in a vaccuum, low-level encounters can last quite a while as well. I mean...kobolds man, kobolds. XD
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well i had a long drawn out post telling why my crb fighter was able to do well against the encounters proposed by ashiel, but my son pulled the power cord out of the wall before i completely finished...
anyway i came to the conclusion, that while the paladin was able to tank the creatures better then the fighter, the fighters ability to gain 4 ranged attacks before moving into melee, or SU, range of the target creatures he was able to weaken the encounter well enough to allow a standard party to "mop up the remainder" for instance the basilisk would have been hit for its full hp on a full attack while staying out of its 30 foot gaze range, then able to drop his bow and quick draw his towershield and sword to tank the remaining target with a 34 ac.
i will need to redo my post to prove it.... /sigh
Oh heck, it’s meaningless anyway. No doubt a pally is gonna do better in a solo game vs undead. (and a Cleric would do a LOT better still) So? How about in Module G1, vs Giants, ogres and more giants?
How about in a classic party of Wiz, Cleric, & Rogue? Who fulfils the Tank role better?
The question was answered many times- why play a Fighter? Because it’s fun.
No amount of jiggery-pokery showing that a Pally may be slightly better given a certain set of opponents means anything to most players, who simply want to have a useful, survivable fun PC, even if it isn’t super optimized.
Anyway, there little a pally could do that a cleric couldn’t do better. Heck, any decent optimizer could design a cleric who could walk thru that scenario while whistling a happy tune and juggling 3 live rabid weasels.
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Interesting thing that happened tonight: The party was jumped by some CR 15 swarms of diminutive creatures. The paladin, fighter and ranger were all powerless to stop them (just did not have the right tools for the job). So, while the debate over who's better in a fight might be interesting, we were all EQUALLY useless in that encounter.Paladin could still heal(himself and others) actually.
Or the others could drink potions?
But the thing is, you "can" optimize the hell out of a fighter.
No amount of jiggery-pokery showing that a Pally may be slightly better given a certain set of opponents means anything to most players, who simply want to have a useful, survivable fun PC, even if it isn’t super optimized.
Absolutely, esp with archetypes.
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Actually, gimme a bit. I'm going to build another dungeon AGAINST the Paladin, with as few saving throws as possible (because clearly the Basilisks and 6th level spellcasting was oh-so-biased against Fighters).You set up the dungeon challenge which is a great dungeon for paladins, not so great for fighters.
No doubt, a Paladin does better vs Mummies than a Fighter. So?
Okay. After retrieving the McGuffin from "Generic Tomb of God Hates Fighters" named by the party's Fighter of course, not by the people of the world or the rest of the party by any means, they must venture through the Valley of "God Actually Hates Paladins and Made This Dungeon To Make Them Look Bad" which is actually what it was named because it's scrawled on the entrance. Funny that.
Part I: ECL 7 Not long after entering the winding passages of this place full of anti-Paladin hate, the party comes across a dreaded gazebo. Or what I mean is, a gargantuan animated object. This particular animated object has the following statistics:
The dreaded Gazebo is truly a monster of legends. A massive gargantuan construct of exceptionally Neutral alignment, hefty hardness, strong attacks, and the made from the finest Mahogany from the Planet Malchior 7.
Part II: ECL 9 The party heals up with happy sticks (about 6 charges) and then presses on through the valley of hate against Paladins. In a clearing, for no particular reason is a pair of the dreaded Black Puddings. At first the party gnome wants to taste them, but then the Paladin says "No little gnome, this is a spicey pudding that must answer to my hammer of justice!" and then well, there is some fighting. Black Pudding x 2.
Part III: ECL 10 Now in a cool world we might encounter something like a Gorgon, but that would involve saving throws, and things with saving throws are not fair to Fighters and are biased in a Paladin's favor, so instead of something cool and scary like a monster that turns people to stone we get a pair of giant slugs (no not that giant slug) for a very difficult encounter of Neutrality.
Normally this encounter would go like this. Giant huge slugs with horrible Stealth checks get spotted from a mile away, Paladin pulls bow, notches some mundane arrows and shoots them until they are appropriately dead. However, this is an adventure that absolutely hates Paladins. So what we're actually going to do is put the slugs on the inside of a giant tunnel, and they'll drop down onto the party as they go through the tunnel of "nobody walks around this" in the valley of "God Hates Paladins". So the Slugs drop down into the tunnel 15 ft. away from the party (so the party is within range of their spit and such).
More to come...
If you haven't noticed yet though, the Paladin's not exactly crying yet, even when evil enemies aren't around, no saving throws are coming about, and even manages to make a joke of the encounter with the worst type of enemy he could face (an absolutely goofy strong animated object that is neutral, strong, with huge bonuses to hit, with hardness to eat away damage from melee and/or ranged attacks).
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And you honestly need to let that go. Bonus feats are a part if the fighter like it or not. I'm not sure you fully grasp just how important and great it is to be able to select so many feats and the combos that go with it, doesn't matter that all classes get feats, the other classes don't have as much to play with like the fighter.
Telling me that a fighter getting more feats is something special when everyone else can get feats sometimes the same ones is to me anyway hardly the defination of a class being "special". Now if the fighter had some very unique feats or abilites then I would admit I might be incorrect. Hell if the feats would become more powerful over time and only to the fighter would be unique. Except 2E gave fighters something unique. 3.5 and PF not only took that away. It gave every other melee class the ability to take the same feats. A waste imo for some classes yet it can be done. with a slight reduction to hit and damage.
To be quite honest, the fighter is the most balanced, consistent, versatile, and dependable class out there. Classes aren't always determined by their unique abilities that they may possess.
Possilby yet imo every class if played and handled correctly can be a consistent dependable class. Im not saying the fighter is useless. Just boring and bland. I would still play one just no longer my first choice in PF in terms of melee classes.
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Now in a cool world we might encounter something like a Gorgon, but that would involve saving throws, and things with saving throws are not fair to Fighters and are biased in a Paladin's favor
Heh, that line alone made me laugh. Thanks for that.
Saving throws is the GM's way of telling you he knows you're sleeping with his wife.
Specially Will saves! Might as well just say "Rock falls! Everyone dies!", because will saves are so rare...
Just like fear effects. And enchantments. And social encounters. And undead.
I mean... Who has ever explored a Tomb filled with undead? All I ever see is ooze-infested dungeons and mazes full of plant-creatures and vermin. Ever.
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First, how do you have 18 str 18 dex and 14 con as your base stats? It sounds like you are using a pretty high point buy.Second, I think both of you do very little damage. We use 15 point buy and without smite, my level 14 paladin does 3d6+34 with a +29 attack bonus with a scythe and a 19-20 crit. I do about 160 on a crit. I also do 9d6 extra damage each round(Conductive weapon) for 7 rounds.
If I get surprised and don't have any buffs, I will instead do 2d4+20.
The real benefit though is that my weapon has heartseeker, mimetic cruel and conductive on it(while still being +5), which is very helpful against monsters.
1. i play 20 PB, not 15, and base stats means before magical modifiers. let me help you see how i did that...
16 + 2 racial
16 + 2 from levels 4 and 8
2. you do not do 3d6 on a scythe, unless you are wasting rounds buffing. so lets not fool ourselves into thinking we are introducing consumibles into this.
but my fighter with his great sword is hitting for 3d6 (no buffs) and at 14th level is hitting for close to ... 3d6 + 31 (no consumibles) in melee and hitting for 1d8 + 18 on a ranged attack (@5 attacks per round with 3 attacks at a +25). so when you pull out your +5 long bow and deal , even with smite, at best 2d8+60 i will be hitting for 3d8 +64. all numbers i posted are lowballed because i dont have the time to minmax all the damage modifiers i can tweek out of this system. dont act like your paladin will out damage my fighter, it wont.
and remember i think both classes are good, im not trying to say either one is better then the other.
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And you honestly need to let that go. Bonus feats are a part if the fighter like it or not. I'm not sure you fully grasp just how important and great it is to be able to select so many feats and the combos that go with it, doesn't matter that all classes get feats, the other classes don't have as much to play with like the fighter.
Telling me that a fighter getting more feats is something special when everyone else can get feats sometimes the same ones is to me anyway hardly the defination of a class being "special". Now if the fighter had some very unique feats or abilites then I would admit I might be incorrect. Hell if the feats would become more powerful over time and only to the fighter would be unique. Except 2E gave fighters something unique. 3.5 and PF not only took that away. It gave every other melee class the ability to take the same feats. A waste imo for some classes yet it can be done. with a slight reduction to hit and damage.
Possilby yet imo every class if played and handled correctly can be a consistent dependable class. Im not saying the fighter is useless. Just boring and bland. I would still play one just no longer my first choice in PF in terms of melee classes.
To be quite honest, the fighter is the most balanced, consistent, versatile, and dependable class out there. Classes aren't always determined by their unique abilities that they may possess.
You do realize that there are Fighter only feats don't you?
Also, once again you completely miss the mark. Show me another class that gets the same amount of feats as a fighter. You claim that other get feats but you can't acknowledge the fact that other classes do not get so large an amount. No other class can build combos using feat chains like a fighter.
The most powerful healing potion you can purchase without house rules is a CL 15 potion of cure serious wounds. This potion heals about 28.5 damage and costs 2,250 gp. For the cost of that, you could have just dropped an elemental gem and summoned an angry large fire elemental to roast the swarm.
Meanwhile, the 8th level Paladin I posted heals an average of 22 damage as a non-provoking swift or standard action that negates status ailments. The 8th level Paladin I mentioned can do so 7/day without feat investments (though more Charisma at higher levels means you'll push close to 20/day and then there's the Extra Lay on Hands feat for +2/day per instance). But at 8th level, that's equivalent to popping 1-2 1,350 gp potions in healing alone. Up to 7 times per day (almost 10,000 gp worth of effective consumables per day).
EDIT: Actually, you may be able to produce the following potion by RAW. Since the spell level is still technically 3rd but it is priced as a 8th level potion. A potion of empowered maximized cure serious wounds at CL 15th. This potion would cost 6,000 gp and cure 58 damage per potion.
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Okay. After retrieving the McGuffin from "Generic Tomb of God Hates Fighters" named by the party's Fighter of course, not by the people of the world or the rest of the party by any means, they must venture through the Valley of "God Actually Hates Paladins and Made This Dungeon To Make Them Look Bad" which is actually what it was named because it's scrawled on the entrance. Funny that.
Part I:
The Paladin fails to use his detect evil ability... as it has a range of 60ft, and not a mile away. The rest is fine... but a Fighter would be able to do exactly the same - and would likely have a better CMB / CMD.Part II:
Again - a fighter would be capable of doing exactly what the paladin did... but better.
Part III:
Again - same same, but the fighter would outperform. The damage received is hardly fatal to the fighter, so out of combat healing could take place.
Two out of the three of those strawmen you put up involve an out of combat caster using grease to trivialize the encounter (or make you avoid an AoO that would make your grapple fail in Part I)...
Exactly what were you trying to show with the large blurb of pretty useless text?
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Okay. After retrieving the McGuffin from "Generic Tomb of God Hates Fighters" named by the party's Fighter of course, not by the people of the world or the rest of the party by any means, they must venture through the Valley of "God Actually Hates Paladins and Made This Dungeon To Make Them Look Bad" which is actually what it was named because it's scrawled on the entrance. Funny that.Part I:
The Paladin fails to use his detect evil ability... as it has a range of 60ft, and not a mile away. The rest is fine... but a Fighter would be able to do exactly the same - and would likely have a better CMB / CMD.Part II:
Again - a fighter would be capable of doing exactly what the paladin did... but better.Part III:
Again - same same, but the fighter would outperform. The damage received is hardly fatal to the fighter, so out of combat healing could take place.Two out of the three of those strawmen you put up involve an out of combat caster using grease to trivialize the encounter (or make you avoid an AoO that would make your grapple fail in Part I)...
Exactly what were you trying to show with the large blurb of pretty useless text?
Heh, exactly. The Fighter might be able to do it better, but the Paladn does it. And that's with the adventure being specifically geared towards being probably the worst adventure for a Paladin in terms of Paladin usefulness. No evil creatures, no creatures with saving throws, enemies with heavy damage resistances that cannot be bypassed with magic, and so forth.
I posted a generic adventure like something you might expect to see during a real game (complete with spellcasting mummies, petrifying basilisks, and gelatinous cubes and sneaky traps and incorporeal foes). People whined that it was anti-Fighter and clearly biased towards the Paladin, even though during said adventure the Paladin never used all his smites, nor more than half his lay on hands uses, and still had good spells left for the final battle (and shield other is awesome for keeping your favorite squishy alive). Yet supposedly this adventure was pandering to the Paladin.
Meanwhile, in an adventure that is actively trying to deny the Paladin as many of his benefits as possible (no smite, no benefit from divine grace, actively trying to nerf his non-smite damage via hardness which is superior to both damage reduction and energy resistance, etc) the Paladin still performs, and performs adequately.
Which is of course why I'd prefer to have a Paladin on my team instead of a Fighter, because in a real game where enemies do things like use magic, fear effects, save or dies, save or sucks, ability damage, negative energy, charms, compulsions, curses, fatigue, nausea, sickened, and so forth, Paladin trumps Fighter. And in games where the GM hates you and only uses stuff specifically geared against the Paladin, the Paladin still preforms adequately; which is pretty damn good for a class who the GM is specifically picking out enemies and obstacles to spite you.
To quote a friend of mine on Skype who got an early preview of the mock-adventure:
Your gazebo seems like the perfect challenge for a paladin-hating adventure. Raw punching power with no saves or status effects? Hardness to carve through? Screw paladins!
EDIT: So our adventure here is specifically to spite the Paladin, yet I'm not complaining yet. Took no time at all for people to complain that the first adventure (which was something I would actually expect to play through - or would want to play through - instead of a game specifically where creatures were chosen to specifically counter and/or spite your PCs) being unfair and biased towards Fighters despite having a variety of encounters including a "trick" encounter which the Paladin (nor Fighter) could fight through effectively, some traps, an encounter with Neutral-aligned magical beasts with petrifying gazes, and an end boss that was an undead theurge with 3rd level spellcasting on both sides.
EDIT II: I'm surprised that you missed the point of it. I thought I had made it pretty clear. I mean, I've said, repeatedly that Fighter has better damage baseline, but that I believe Paladin is more useful and in a more natural game more consistent in dealing damage than Fighters (because if your blind, crippled, or crazy you're not doing much). If "not specifically against the Paladin" is "biased against the Fighter" and "specifically against the Paladin" means "the Paladin does okay, but may be mildly annoyed", I think we're done here.
Ashiel:
Your adventure was hardly a 'Paladin hating adventure', and a quote from your friend on Skype is hardly a rousing endorsement of your rigor and attention to detail. My comment was basically stating that your wall of text essentially said nothing... I wasn't missing the point, just questioning why you went to so much effort just to say nothing of significance.
I think the opposite is true. In my experience, fighters run out of HP long before a pally is going to run out of spells.has anyone ever played where the pace of things took the group to the limit of their daily uses?
Barbarian out of rages? casters out of or low on spells? Paladin out of daily uses, rangers animal companion unconscious and riding in a nap sack but you have to do this one more thing? Fight your way out of a dungeon? sneak past the sleeping giant only to step on that dang twig?
That's the fighter, holding up his shield swinging his sword wildly "run for your lives, Ill hold him off!"
IVe seen this same argument go with wizards vs fighters and barbarians go with fighters, it all comes down to how long can you adventure for? What's your staying power.
The fighters candle burns a little less bright on the individual encounter (but this is all theory craft) but has better staying power than his other melee companions.
The pally is so cool (and the barbarian as well) because their DM let's them sit and rest, oh ok I'm out of my goodies now it's time to stop.
Well so fortunate are you to have a DM that let's that happen.
How far do you press into a dungeon before turning back, what about wandering monsters (which is so down played these days)
It's the contrived stopping when it suits the party that makes the uses per day classes shine more than they should.
Is that because the paladins don't use their spells, since they are not always worth the action or due to a fighter with a lower AC?
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Ashiel:
Your adventure was hardly a 'Paladin hating adventure', and a quote from your friend on Skype is hardly a rousing endorsement of your rigor and attention to detail. My comment was basically stating that your wall of text essentially said nothing... I wasn't missing the point, just questioning why you went to so much effort just to say nothing of significance.
Seems obvious to me. This is an adventure where the paladin is incapable of taking advantage of their class features. They still work fine.
The other adventure was something you might realistically face in game, and the paladin performed excellently.
The scale for paladin performance is between adaquete and excellent. The scale for fighter performance is between Lawn Ornament and excellent.
The worst drawback of a Paladin is one that is very difficult to objectively evaluate.... his code of conduct. I would posit that no forum exercise is able to adequately evaluate that restriction due to the table variation depending on DM and interpretation.
It was paladin neutral aventure hardly paladin hating.
If you don't consider "unable to use any of their class features" hating, I don't want to see what you consider hating.
A Paladin hating adventure would be an exercise in making a stupid moralistic decision at every juncture...
Room 1:
Choice of two doors - go through door one and you kill a puppy, door two and you kill a kitten.
Room 2:
Kill the bad guy and make a village starve because they won't get food, or let him live and condemn them to life in slavery.
But that's about as realistic as the other 'sample' adventures that have been bandied around as examples of why the Fighter is a 'lawn ornament' so it's kind of pointless to use them as fact.
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A Paladin hating adventure would be an exercise in making a stupid moralistic decision at every juncture...
Room 1:
Choice of two doors - go through door one and you kill a puppy, door two and you kill a kitten.Room 2:
Kill the bad guy and make a village starve because they won't get food, or let him live and condemn them to life in slavery.But that's about as realistic as the other 'sample' adventures that have been bandied around as examples of why the Fighter is a 'lawn ornament' so it's kind of pointless to use them as fact.
Ha. That's funny. So we basically have someone who believes that fighting monsters out of the bestiary in an underground tomb (AKA a dungeon) is unfair and biased against the Fighter in a game of Dungeons & Dragons / Pathfinder, but using only enemies specifically chosen to render the Paladin's abilities inert and/or useless during the encounters is not biased at all, and is in fact "class neutral".
Good job, you convinced me guys, good show. Thanks for explaining in detail what class bias actually looks like, I appreciate it. Now I can go and look at real adventures like entombed with the pharaohs and the part stone pyramid with full understanding that clearly the writers of these adventures hate fighters and are biased against them, and are obviously writing adventures just to make Paladins look good. Entombed with the pharaohs actually sports almost everything I mentioned in my mock adventure and more (more including things like vampires, scarab swarms, etc; while also sporting things such as basilisks, spellcasting mummies, devious traps, etc).
Room 1:
Choice of two doors - go through door one and you kill a puppy, door two and you kill a kitten.
Non-sentient creature. Eat the thing if you feel bad about it. Or just don't open doors that only exist to kill baby animals.
Room 2:
Kill the bad guy and make a village starve because they won't get food, or let him live and condemn them to life in slavery.
Let the guy live. That was easy. If faced between not and allowing to live or killing and allowing to die, it doesn't seem like a hard question (not really even for a non-Paladin). Or you could use your brain and make sure that the people lived some other way (wheat is a few copper pieces for lots of it, so you could just cash in the bad guy's loot to feed people).
A Paladin hating adventure would be an exercise in making a stupid moralistic decision at every juncture...
Room 1:
Choice of two doors - go through door one and you kill a puppy, door two and you kill a kitten.Room 2:
Kill the bad guy and make a village starve because they won't get food, or let him live and condemn them to life in slavery.But that's about as realistic as the other 'sample' adventures that have been bandied around as examples of why the Fighter is a 'lawn ornament' so it's kind of pointless to use them as fact.
As a proper paladin:
Room 1:Fine, I walk through the wall. One hammer swing at a time if I must.Room 2:I'll beat him up and make him into a real leader of men.
An adventure can hate a paladin all it likes, but if the paladin is clever and truly worthy of being a paladin, he can work around it. The problem is that paladins aren't really known for their cleverness.
A Paladin hating adventure would be an exercise in making a stupid moralistic decision at every juncture...
Room 1:
Choice of two doors - go through door one and you kill a puppy, door two and you kill a kitten.Room 2:
Kill the bad guy and make a village starve because they won't get food, or let him live and condemn them to life in slavery.But that's about as realistic as the other 'sample' adventures that have been bandied around as examples of why the Fighter is a 'lawn ornament' so it's kind of pointless to use them as fact.
I'm not really sure what that has to do with this discussion. It's about mechanics, not class flavor.
And the whole 'lawn ornament' thing is a fairly common reference to flesh to stone. It basically implies that bad saves mean you aren't doing anything in a real fight.
Smite of evil and the high saves are the only to not come into play, hardly he would be unable to use his other class features.
I do not read that encounter, but for example any of this happens?
make him move - he would be slower than a fighter.
spells taht target good creatures - protection from good for example.
Make him mabe acrobatics, climb and swim checks - probably he would not have any rank in those skills, the str bonus would be negated by the heavy armor.
You're right. A fighter has 10 feet of movement on a straight paladin for a significant part of the game (a disadvantage that disappears with the advent of mithral celestial plate).
Protection from Good could apply just as equally to a fighter as a paladin, and it's a +2 deflection bonus to AC in this situation (I hardly think the paladin is going to be using scrolls of charm person). Not a big deal, especially since most creatures that can cast it already have gear, and will probably have a ring of protection already.
I don't see the point about skills. The also have the same number of skill points, and both have high stats that key into those skills. I guess a fighter might have a bonus 3-4 points higher.
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Ashiel - I sense much anger and loathing in you... so clearly you can't be a Paladin.
A Paladin hating adventure would be an exercise in making a stupid moralistic decision at every juncture...
Room 1:
Choice of two doors - go through door one and you kill a puppy, door two and you kill a kitten.Room 2:
Kill the bad guy and make a village starve because they won't get food, or let him live and condemn them to life in slavery.But that's about as realistic as the other 'sample' adventures that have been bandied around as examples of why the Fighter is a 'lawn ornament' so it's kind of pointless to use them as fact.
Well, in "unwinnable" situations like these, sure it's ridiculous. But I think putting Paladins in situations where adhering to their code makes things difficult for them is a pretty reasonable way to challenge them. For example, a crafty lich might have warded his door with a spell that requires travelers to confess their greatest weakness before it opens. The others can try and bluff, but the Paladin has to tell the truth. A cunning rogue might frame the party for a crime, so when the LG authorities showed up to arrest them, the Paladin would (probably) submit himself for trial (to both respect the rightful law and to trust in his own innocence). His friends could just skedaddle or even oppose the guards forcibly.
Paladins are solid in straightforward, direct confrontations with evil - which is why any villain worth his salt is going to avoid those kinds of showdowns. This is the (intended) trade-off for Paladin power - it comes with some important restrictions. Paladins probably aren't going to kill an enemy at parley, no matter how easy it might make their life later on. Fighters, though...
Nicos:
I would posit that a Paladin can lie in some circumstances - depending on the god, etc - but fluff is subjective, and thus difficult to discuss with disparate playstyles.
Using the Paladin codes in Faiths of Purity as a guideline only. I give you the following:
I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others.
So by Golarion fluff - a Paladin of Torag is able to lie assuming it's needed to serve his people.
I do believe I addressed that in the text you quoted. Now how about that paladin hating adventure?
Actually, it's a 5 point difference. On a skill that's not really relevant unless you happen to be doing something ridiculous, like climbing up a wet rope attached to the mast of a ship in the middle of a thunder storm, since the normal DCs are between 0 and 10. Swim has a DC of 10-15 in any situation where you'd reasonably want to risk it, and neither the paladin nor the fighter are going to be avoiding AoOs with acrobatics any time soon.
Actually, it's a 5 point difference. On a skill that's not really relevant unless you happen to be doing something ridiculous, like climbing up a wet rope attached to the mast of a ship in the middle of a thunder storm, since the normal DCs are between 0 and 10. Swim has a DC of 10-15 in any situation where you'd reasonably want to risk it, and neither the paladin nor the fighter are going to be avoiding AoOs with acrobatics any time soon.How it is 5 points? It is like +4 str - 4 Armor check penalty = 0.
And how it is not drowning irrelevant?
Climb is a 5 point difference. 2 ranks + 4 STR - 3 ACP = +3, versus the fighter you posted's +8. Swim is still +1, which means not drowning. Acrobatics is irrelevantly low for both of them, though both of them can still make reasonable jumps.
Well, neither of them are going to be effective in water, especially not in bad conditions. That's why adventurers keep consumables around for unusual situations like that, such as a few potions or scrolls of touch of the sea.
Uh, neither of them. They'd both get thrown a rope and climb back out.
1)note that you paladin can not use lay of hands with his heavy shield.
He never did. He drops his shield and 2-hands his weapon during those rounds.
2)Maybe i am not seeing it but it seems taht you do not have listed your Hps (i calculate 57)
Listed in his statblock on the end.
3) Furious focus do not work with weapons in one hand, so if you use the feat you lost 3 points in AC.
Both the adjustments for two-handing and AC were accounted for.
4) your pally do not for crafting, so craft woundrousous items is usseles for him ( i suppose htat hurts your equipment)
I don't understand what "your pally do not for crafting" means, but the Paladin has a +9 Spellcraft without assistance or masterwork tools. He most definitely can craft.
5) where s the attack routine?
Where everyone's attack routine is. BAB + Str + Enhancement +/- Other.
Traits: +1 to will, +1 to reflex
Paladin is not using traits.
Fighter should have more wisdom so he would have a slighty advantage detecting the trap. Also 10ft reach pole, when yu are mundane you maximize your mundane methods, so the traps is nota that problematic. (also why somebody else is not looking for traps?)
(Note that the fighter Could just climb and avoid the danger)
Assuming a 10ft. pole will trigger the trap in the first place, and not a weight-based trap. Difference between Fighter's Perception and the Paladin's is 1 point. Reflex is -1 due to lack of traits because my Paladin doesn't use traits (which are not part of the standard game and are optional things that the GM may use). Be fair, be honest. I'm a firm believer in 10 ft. poles, but they don't work on all traps, and they aren't exactly helping your case much.
PART 2:
A 12 heade hydra is CR 11, this encounter is broken.
A 16 headed fast zombie hydra is CR 7. Zombie CR is based on the zombie's hit dice, not the CR of the original creature. The zombie lacks the fast healing of the original creature and gains a plethora of new weaknesses, two of which I mentioned to effortlessly move past them. Read up on monsters, and resources of an 8th level party. They're definitely no more than CR 7 each. Instead of complaining, man up. You can get past this encounter using the same methods as the Paladin did because he didn't fight these directly either (and shouldn't). You don't have to be stupid to be successful (quite the opposite) and rushing headlong into a battle with a monster that is all melee destruction is stupid.
PART 3:
Fighter have almost the same will save so paladin have just a slighty advantage here. The mercy is a great boon though.
Show me the math. Barring your traits buffing your saves (Paladin has no traits, traits are not standard) you still have a 30% chance to fail against each of the mummies, and 3 chances to do it in. Those are not super good odds (statistically 1/3 will probably be failed), and the moment that happens you're dead (mummies coup you for 2d8+20 damage and you must make a DC 10 + damage taken fortitude or die). Your AC is terrible at 8th level, so the DPR of the mummies against you is 25.875, which means you're dead in 3 rounds, and that is accounting for your DR 3/-. It also doesn't show what you're doing for your party if your party ends up getting paralyzed (it's a rather large AoE in a dungeon).
Your damage vs the mummies is impressive. 2d4+18/15-20 (not 20, from what I can tell). Your DPR is about 27.05 before crits. Factoring crits you could drop one every other round, but it's very possible that you'll be dead by then, and likely have contracted Mummy Rot as well (you have a 25% chance per hit to be afflicted, so likely a 75% chance on round one, and about a 60% chance on subsequent rounds).
Just kind of concerned that you're breezing about without actually presenting any mathematics and just saying "I ignore the trap. I won't count this fight, it's not fair. I have a will save, so this is irrelevant" and moving on without backing up your statements.
PART 4: Fighter have more or less the same utility in this encounter that a paladin.
Pretty much agreed here.
PART 5: fighter do not need other party member to cast magic weapon on him. Figther tactis are different form the pally, he prefer to just attack and attack, freeing his party member so they can do other things.
The only tactic the Fighter has that is different is that you have a +1 weapon, which the Paladin only had masterwork weapons (and thus needed to buff to hit). How do you account for the ability score damage? Your damage is halved vs the shadow and you cannot critically hit the shadow, while the shadow has a 95% chance to hit you and thus deals an average of 4.275 strength damage each round, reducing your hit and damage by -2/-3 per average strike. It's physically impossible for you to kill the shadow in less than 3 rounds, which means your overall offense and damage will drop by about -6/-6 due to Strength loss. Assuming the Cleric casts death ward on you after the first round, you can get away with -2/-3, but then the shadow goes after your allies (as it did in the case of the Paladin). How do you recoup from the strength damage? I suppose you can use 50 gp potions of lesser restoration, but you'll need several, pretty much losing out compared to the 1 50 gp potion used on the Paladin.
PART 7: This fight is tough. Fighter would have all his hps but other party members would have few spells and other abilties.
The fighter will need a lot of help, the same as the paladin (maybe a lithe more due to the useful of smite of evil)
Would you be willing to elaborate? As best as I can tell you have a 55% chance to get couped as soon as the battle begins. The creatures DR 5/- and AC 29 (with shield) hurt your DPR badly. The mummy can cast charm person at you repeatedly. Once it lands (30% chance to land it), the Mummy makes an opposed Charisma check with a +5 versus your -2 (+35% success chance for mummy) to turn you against your party (or just allows you to be since you will not attack the mummy and will defend it using nonlethal means).
Uh, neither of them. They'd both get thrown a rope and climb back out.Maybe you miss the running part of running waters.
Both die, statistically. The Paladin has a 50% chance to avoid going under with a DC 15 Strength check (not hindered by armor) or a 55% DC 15 Swim check (hindered by armor). If pulled under the character suffers 1d3 nonlethal damage per round. If the water would move the characters (such as by 15 ft. or better per round) then both Fighters and Paladins are dead in such a situation because they can't swim faster than 10 ft. regardless. with a successful swim check and a full-round action.
Ashiel - I sense much anger and loathing in you... so clearly you can't be a Paladin.
Sorry, after conversing with certain people on the boards it's really, really hard to tell sometimes.