Seems pretty clear. They do not need to meet feat prerequisites for style feats. They do need to meet the prerequisites for Elemental Fist. I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is? Could you explain a little better?
What is subjective about it?
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat.
First, it says what he may select as bonus feats. Style feats and Elemental Fist.
Then, it gives us two things. First, in italics, it states he ignores perquisites for style feats. Then after the comma, it states (the bolded parts) that there is an exception, the Elemental Fist feat. Not in relation to style feats, in relation to taking the feat itself.
That isn't subjective. It isn't implied meaning. It is stated directly.
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That isn't subjective. It isn't implied meaning. It is stated directly.
You can read the sentence in two ways:
1) He does need to meet the prerequisites of Elemental Fist
2) While he ignores prerequisites for style feats, if a style feat has Elemental Fist as a prerequisite, he still needs Elemental Fist to take the style.
To be honest, I rather think it's #2. The styles that require Elemental Fist don't function at all if you do not have it, as all the do is modify its use. That to me indicates that you must have Elemental Fist before taking them (and also explains why the Master of Many Styles can take Elemental Fist as a bonus feat to begin with).
I coulda sworn I saw some caveat in there about how you have to choose one type of damage and stick with it if you take the Feat without meeting the prerequisites, until such time that you meet the prerequisites.
Ah, found it. Turns out that was just if you took Dragon Ferocity.
TG can you cite your source please.
I'm not TG but I'd be willing to bet these are what he's referring to.
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.
Taking this feat allows you to qualify for the Elemental Fist feat even if you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites. If you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites, you must choose one of the damage types that feat offers, and you can use only that damage type with your Elemental Fist attacks until you meet the feat’s normal prerequisites. A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds.
I am 95% confident it's #2, for what that's worth, but there's no RAW back up, only an educated guess on what RAI is.
Rynjin, if you reread the thread, you will see that this issue is about how to read that second sectince of the rules text.
Dragon Ferocity does not even enter into this.
TG has stated that there is an official PFS ruling and I was asking him to cite his source. In part, because it does something that English doesn't allow for.
English gives us two ways to read the sentence in question;
1.) you ignore prerequisites for style feats, but not Elemental Fist.OR
2.) You ignore prerequisites other than Elemental Fist.
So I'm again back to asking for an official position.
English gives us only one way to read that sentence.
"He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat."
He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that Feat (referring back to "a bonus Style Feat"). The exception to this is Elemental Fist, which you do have to meet the prerequisites for. I fail to see where this confusion stems from, even re-reading everything.
The Dragon Ferocity text is there because you asked TG to cite his source without naming any specific part of his post. Part of his post mentioned that part of the Dragon Ferocity description.
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English gives us only one way to read that sentence."He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat."
Not quite. Consider these made-up examples:
He can learn Whirlwind Attack, Power Attack or Spring Attack as a bonus feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites for that feat, except for Spring Attack.
He can learn Whirlwind Attack, Power Attack or Spring Attack as a bonus feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites for that feat, except for minimum Base Attack Bonus requirements.
In the first example, the word 'except' refers to the feats. In the second example, the word 'except' refers to the prerequisites.
In the original question, Elemental Fist is both a feat and a prerequisite for other feats, which makes it ambiguous.
The problem remains, there are two reasonable readings of the rules text
This is, of course, your opinion.
I think several people have given you what is the standard, accepted, reasonable interpretation of this. It's fine that you don't agree, but does this thread really need to keep going on and on?
English gives us only one way to read that sentence.
No, it does not. It gives us two, which is why there is a question at all.
In fact, not only does it give us two, but the opposite answer to what you're suggesting is the only way to read it is far more likely to be true based on context.
The problem remains, there are two reasonable readings of the rules textThis is, of course, your opinion.
I think several people have given you what is the standard, accepted, reasonable interpretation of this. It's fine that you don't agree, but does this thread really need to keep going on and on?
Several people have given a standard, accepted, reasonable interpretation, but have not agreed on what that is.
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Two readings:
"At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat without meeting its prerequisites. Alternatively, may select the Elemental Fist feat, but only if he meets its prerequisites."
or
"At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select Elemental Fist as a bonus feat without meeting its prerequisites. Alternatively, he may select a style feat. He must possess the Elemental Fist feat if the style feat includes it as a prerequisite, but does not need to meet any other prerequisites of the style feat."
Personally, I read it the second way.
Two readings:
"At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat without meeting its prerequisites. Alternatively, may select the Elemental Fist feat, but only if he meets its prerequisites."
or
"At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select Elemental Fist as a bonus feat without meeting its prerequisites. Alternatively, he may select a style feat. He must possess the Elemental Fist feat if the style feat includes it as a prerequisite, but does not need to meet any other prerequisites of the style feat."
Personally, I read it the second way.
I read this as the first way. I never even questioned it. Honestly, why would I take Djinni style (Efreeti style, whatever), if I didn't have Elemental Fist? They only work when using the first or you have fists left over that day.
I guess "why" doesn't matter. I concur. This does call for some clarification, just to be sure. I thought the wording was funky the first time I read it, and I re-read it a few times until I got a meaning I was satisfied with.
Red, if you agree it needs clerification, please make sure to click the FAQ tag on the original post.
Just to make sure I understand you; your position is that the wording means you CAN take Djinni Style before Elemental Fist. Correct?
My stance is so, yes. It's a sub-par option, but since when has this game ever prevented you from taking sub-par options?
I hit FAQ too though. Whether or not I think I'm wrong clarification never hurts.
Usually.
Red, if you agree it needs clerification, please make sure to click the FAQ tag on the original post.
Just to make sure I understand you; your position is that the wording means you CAN take Djinni Style before Elemental Fist. Correct?
Yeah. Believe me, it makes no sense, but that's how I read it. I'm usually really good on getting rules right, but I'm honestly not sure how it was meant to be this time.
I asked this same question last week. So, I'm recommending this as a FAQ candidate.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pb1a?Master-of-Many-Styles-Do-you-need-the-pre reqs
It's pretty obvious that you need Elemental Fist to take feats that require it. Otherwise, those feats would be modifying an ability the character does not possess.
My question is: can you take Elemental Fist without meeting its requirements? The wording suggests you must meet the pre-reqs to take Elemental Fist. Otherwise, the Four Winds archetype would not be as competitive to MoMS.
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He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.
I can see where this is a little vague, however, I would think it means you have to meet the prerequisites of Elemental Fist. The reason I say this is the amount of explanation they give to the style feat paths in the next two sentences, they give very specific detail on how the process works. This makes me believe that if they meant your number "2)" then they would have used words fairly similar to those you used. The sentence "He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat." taken alone would mean exactly what you typed in number "1)" and I bet that's their intention given the choice of wording and punctuation. This would mean that you could take it as a bonus feat from the class at level 14 at the earliest, but be able to purchase it as a normal feat at level 11.
However, it is possible that they made a mistake so it may be that only an official Paizo representative can truly answer your question.
FAQ'd, and I agree it is confusing. Personally I think it means you must have elemental fist before taking the style feats. I also think it means you do not need the prerequisites for elemental fist.
- Gauss
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I know exactly what it's talking about. My point is that they explained that section on style paths in great detail and did not explain the Elemental Fist confusion in as much detail. When I look at it in the simple context it is written I take it to mean that you have to meet the prerequisites of the feat.
"...a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat...He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist Feat."
There are two categories of feats, style feats and Elemental Fist. A MoMS does not have to meet the prerequisites of the style feat category, but does have to meet them for Elemental Fist. If they meant that the monk would be able to take any of them without prerequisites, except Elemental Fist as a prerequisite, they would have gone into more detail explaining that, such as the amount of detail they went into when discussing the style feat paths.
The wording would probably be something similar to the following. "He does not have to meet the prerequisite of that feat, unless that prerequisite is the Elemental Fist feat, in which case he must take the Elemental Fist feat first." That would be an explanation of great detail, such as the amount they gave for style feat paths.
As I said however, it is vague and it is possible that it needs to be clarified.
As with anything that anyone without official capacity writes I am writing from my viewpoint. My viewpoint is, while the wording is vague and can leave room for interpretation, it seems to be written simply so that it would be read simply and that is how I simply read it, whether it is right or wrong. If one does need to meet the prerequisites of Elemental Fist, perhaps ", which he must meet the prerequisites of." needs to be added to the end of that sentence.
Even though this is not a question for me, I will FAQ it in the probable case that I am wrong.
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I would like to know as well, as to most of our group the logical conclusion is that its poorly worded but you do not need to meet the prerequisites of Elemental fist, but you do need Elemental fist for the style feats that require it (since they would be unusable otherwise).
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I get that they are busy, maybe I'm over simplifying it but isn't this just a matter of taking to whomever designed the archetype (I'll call him Bob for example).
"Hey Bob when you wrote this did you mean the have to meet the prereqs for elemental fist or are they ignored?"
Bob answers
Post answer.
Should take 5-10 min tops.
The problem is that writers don't always have final control over their work, so what they intended might be totally different than how it ends up. Editors and others may change things to fit the system or their vision better, or there might be some kind of miscommunication in general about what it's supposed to do...
For example, lets pretend I wrote this ability. Let's pretend my intention was that you needed Elemental Fist to take the styles that require it, but otherwise you could ignore pre-requisites.
I submit the ability, but I wrote it strangely, and the first editors change the wording, but in the process accidentally make it ambiguous. Then it gets submitted to the rules development team, and they read it as needing to meet the requirements of Elemental Fist, but that you could otherwise take styles that required it without taking it first.
They decide that's ok, and let it through. So even though my intention was A, they evaluated it and accepted it as B. Does my original intention matter more than theirs?
Anyway, the end result is, it's a hell of a lot more complicated to get an answer to a question like this on a team project than you think.