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If one was fighting an undead, evil outsider ...
Would a weapon with both the evil outsider & undedad bane properties stack? So if one was using a +3 evil outsider & undead bane longsword, would it become a +7 weapon with +4d6 damage?
Thanks guys.
I don't think it is possible for a creature to have multiple types, but if it did somehow happen, I would say they do stack. It should never come up in Pathfinder.
If so, evil outsider bane, chaotic outsider bane weapons must be popular among the elite knights of Mendev (whose primary foes are demons).
Outsider bane weapons are actually keyed to subtypes, not alignment, so they could have Demon Bane weapons, but not Evil Outsider Bane weapons.
My ruleing would only be it is +5 to hit because that is a enhancement bonus and the same bonuses do not stack. But the 2d6 bane damage to undead and the 2d6 damage to outsider would stack for a total of 4d6.
There's been some questions on if you can even add multiple banes to a weapon, due to added text saying yuo can't put the same ability on twice, but SKR did say this.
Posted that just because this thread will, at some point, get to that point. :)
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If you managed to find a creature for which 2 banes would apply, and you spent the time/money to get weapons that had both banes (who sells this stuff?), they might stack. However:
"Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. To randomly determine a weapon's designated foe, roll on the following table."
Sounds like being bane just keys the weapon to act a certain way, not that the bane enhancement itself does it. Even with two banes, it is still just "a designated foe", and therefore only gets +2 additional bonus and +2d6 damage.
If so, evil outsider bane, chaotic outsider bane weapons must be popular among the elite knights of Mendev (whose primary foes are demons).Outsider bane weapons are actually keyed to subtypes, not alignment, so they could have Demon Bane weapons, but not Evil Outsider Bane weapons.
This is an important point if true. However they are listing Alignments as subtypes in the Bestiary so you could have a Evil Outsider Bane and Chaotic Outsider Bane
EDIT: Here is an example: Demon, Balor lists it's type as outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)So it does show Chaotic and evil as subtypes.
If so, evil outsider bane, chaotic outsider bane weapons must be popular among the elite knights of Mendev (whose primary foes are demons).Outsider bane weapons are actually keyed to subtypes, not alignment, so they could have Demon Bane weapons, but not Evil Outsider Bane weapons.
This is wrong. You can choose any Outsider subtype for your bane (outsider) weapon. Chaotic, evil, good, and lawful are all Outsider subtypes.
(in essence, bane can be used for anything on the ranger favored enemy table)
The correct answer is No, they don't stack...it's all still a bane effect, and being Bane against something twice isn't going to help you.
OUtsider Banes are generally by alignment, but they CAN be by subtype. Why you'd pick Demon over Evil, I'm not sure, but there you have it...maybe if you're a Devil.
==Aelryinth
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This is an important point if true. However they are listing Alignments as subtypes in the Bestiary so you could have a Evil Outsider Bane and Chaotic Outsider BaneIf so, evil outsider bane, chaotic outsider bane weapons must be popular among the elite knights of Mendev (whose primary foes are demons).Outsider bane weapons are actually keyed to subtypes, not alignment, so they could have Demon Bane weapons, but not Evil Outsider Bane weapons.
This is also incorrect. The bane section lists outsider as a type and says to select a subtype. You could Select the demon subtype or you could select a different one. Evil is a subtype of outsiders and is thus selectable.
Edit: Totally Ninja'd
OUtsider Banes are generally by alignment, but they CAN be by subtype.
The key here is that Evil IS an outsider subtype as listed in the Beastiary. So when you select Bane Outsider (Evil) you are selecting a subtype of outsider.
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Having a weapon which is a Bane to more than one type of creature simply expands the pool of viable targets; it doesn't stack with itself.
When the Titanic was sinking, they shouted 'Women and children first!' this didn't mean that female children got two seats!
Favoured Enemy wrote:-
'If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.'
(my bolding)
The principle is the same for Bane weapons.
If you can have an Evil Outsider Bane weapon, why wouldn't you go for the catch all Extraplanar Outsider Bane weapon? As long as you aren't in their home plane, it works.
Because...
As I was saying...
If you can have an Evil Outsider Bane weapon, why wouldn't you go for the catch all Extraplanar Outsider Bane weapon? As long as you aren't in their home plane, it works.
Because "Extraplanar" is not one of the available options for the Bane special ability, unless you're house-ruling things or the weapon is unique (like the "Zon-Kuthon" Bane sword in the recent PF Campaign Setting artifact book, among other places; IMHO this is a mis-leading label for a Bane subtype, since it means that the bane works against any worshipper of Zon-Kuthon as well as possibly on the god himself, although bane or no if you tried hitting him with said sword he would probably just laugh and snap it like a twig before sending you to his fortress in the Plane of Shadow for an enternity of torment...)
If you can have an Evil Outsider Bane weapon, why wouldn't you go for the catch all Extraplanar Outsider Bane weapon? As long as you aren't in their home plane, it works.
That's an issue with Paizo removing some text when they created the Core Rulebook. The 3.5 DMG wrote out all the subtypes one could choose for bane (which were incidentally exactly equal to the list from the Ranger's favored enemy table). Paizo for some reason elected to save space by saying "pick any subtype". They should probably instead have said "pick any subtype from the Ranger's favored enemy table", where they actually did write all of that out.
Anyway, extraplanar should not be included in the list of available subtypes.
If you can have an Evil Outsider Bane weapon, why wouldn't you go for the catch all Extraplanar Outsider Bane weapon? As long as you aren't in their home plane, it works.That's an issue with Paizo removing some text when they created the Core Rulebook. The 3.5 DMG wrote out all the subtypes one could choose for bane (which were incidentally exactly equal to the list from the Ranger's favored enemy table). Paizo for some reason elected to save space by saying "pick any subtype". They should probably instead have said "pick any subtype from the Ranger's favored enemy table", where they actually did write all of that out.
Anyway, extraplanar should not be included in the list of available subtypes.
I would agree that extraplanar should not be an available subtype, but then, I don't think alignments should be either. As I read it, you are supposed to pick a subtype specific to that type, such as elves or gnomes for humanoids or demons and devils for outsiders. However, if you read the subtypes for the alignments, they are in NO way locked to outsiders. They are very common in outsiders, but one must not be an outsider to have an alignment subtype. So if they are an option, then by the same logic, Extraplanar is 100% valid as a Bane weapon subtype.
Alignment subtypes have always been a valid choice for bane (in 3.5, the only Outsider options were the alignment subtypes and the elemental subtypes). Removing those subtypes as options wouldn't make any sense.
I would agree that extraplanar should not be an available subtype....
*snip*
Extraplanar is 100% valid as a Bane weapon subtype.
I agree it should not be a subtype and based on both the ranger list and the bestiary it is not listed as a subtype option.
The list in the Beastiary that I can see is:
Outsider (air)
Outsider (chaotic)
Outsider (cold)
Outsider (elemental)
Outsider (earth)
Outsider (evil)
Outsider (fire)
Outsider (good)
Outsider (lawful)
Outsider (native)
Outsider (water)
So if we go by the Beastiary, extraplanar is not an option.
I would agree that extraplanar should not be an available subtype....
*snip*
Extraplanar is 100% valid as a Bane weapon subtype.I agree it should not be a subtype and based on both the ranger list and the bestiary it is not listed as a subtype option.
The list in the Beastiary that I can see is:
Outsider (air)
Outsider (chaotic)
Outsider (cold)
Outsider (elemental)
Outsider (earth)
Outsider (evil)
Outsider (fire)
Outsider (good)
Outsider (lawful)
Outsider (native)
Outsider (water)So if we go by the Beastiary, extraplanar is not an option.
This is from the organization chart in the Bestiary. If we go off of this, then we also find that Humanoids has no listed subtypes. Good luck making an orc bane weapon.
This is from the organization chart in the Bestiary. If we go off of this, then we also find that Humanoids has no listed subtypes. Good luck making an orc bane weapon.
Well I tried. Guess this means I add another house rule to my list. :-)
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He didn't say they stacked (assuming you refer to the same SKR post as Cheapy linked to above), but that they were two different abilities (so you could put both on the same weapon).
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That's correct. It has already been ruled that you can't be twice Bane to a creature.
It would stack with Holy and Axiomatic, however. So you can make a severely powerful weapon against Demons with OUtsider (Evil) Bane, Holy and Axiomatic, for +2/+2 +6d6 damage. It only takes up +5 of the weapon's ultimate power.
Effectively, Bane is one power, and doesn't stack with itself, regardless if it's targeting different things. Adding additional Banes just expands the potential targets, it doesn't stack them.
==Aelryinth
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I hit FAQ on a post above, although I'm really meaning 'Errata'.
It seems like it definitely needs to reference the Ranger's Favored Enemy if that is the intended scope.
(this is an issue re: the valid functioning of Bane, irregardles of stacking issues)
For the stacking issue, I don't see how one can simultaneously that Bane vs. different types is a different effect (for applying to the same weapon), but the same effect (preventing both enchants from applying to a target that qualifies for both). Certainly I don't get that from RAW.
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Quandry, Rangers favored enemy and bane are two completly diffrent things. Rangers Favored Enemy is not a magical property it is an based on a Ranger target his favored ememies body. Bane is a magic property targeting a creatures essence alignment or type not his anantomey.
I just got a vivid image of a demon hunter using a +1 bane (chaotic) bane (evil) bane (demon) weapon. That would be some sight as it teared through every demon in the Worldwound :)
Quandry, Rangers favored enemy and bane are two completly diffrent things. Rangers Favored Enemy is not a magical property it is an based on a Ranger target his favored ememies body. Bane is a magic property targeting a creatures essence alignment or type not his anantomey.
Exactly who stated that Favored Enemy was a magical property?
I specifically wrote 'if that is the intended scope', responding to the fact that other here DO believe that is the intent.The tables are pretty much identical, one 'Enemies' and one 'Foes', except that one only has 'pick any other subtype' as an option for Humanoids, while the other has 'pick a subtype' for Outsiders as well. Given the Editing issues of PRPG, it seems pretty reasonable to question what the RAI actually is.
I guess Outsiders hanging out on their home planes who want some weapons vs. Adventurers could just have Bane: Humanoid (Extraplanar) to cover all the bases? Certainly a good idea for Outsiders with Inquisitor levels, who can spontaneously add Bane effects to their attacks... OUCH!
I guess it's not much different than Native Outsiders (Teifling, Aasimar, Suli, etc) which is an explicit option of Favored Enemy, although I wish those were all Humanoids (type) as well.
Design Manager
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Are SKR said that Outsider Bane Evil and Outsider bane are diffrent properties so they would stack with one another for +4/+4d6 if the target creature has both the subtypes that the weapon has bane againist
He did not say this. He said that he considers them two different properties, and thus would allow both to be on a single weapon. At no time did he say they would stack. He was responding to a query about whether you could even have two different types of Bane on a single weapon, since as written there is only one Bane ability, that then is assigned a designated foe. There was a discussion revolving around the fact that as written, you can only have Bane once on a weapon, even if each instance of it targets a different creature type. His response was that in his home game, Bane (Evil outsider) and Bane (Chaotic Outsider) would count as different abilities and could be on the same weapon.
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If both properties are on the same weapon one does not override the other and cause one not to function so IMO they would stack. the least I could see is that you would not get +2 to hit but you would stll get the bonus to damage much like the greater bane class ability of the inquisitor.
IMO even though normaly to like things do not stack that would not aply to Bane effects as the Bane effects that targets alignments/creature type are not the same so they would stack,
One problem that I see is far to many people on the forums parse and over read the rules to try to make the rules say what they think the rules should say instead of just playing the game and have fun.
For the life of me with the WBL rules as they are why would you pealize a person that had two bane effects on the saqme weapon by saying they do not work together or make a ruling that you can not have two bane effects on the same weapon and only allow bane to stack with archaic/axiomatic and holy unholy. I would be in favor of adding greater bane enchatment +4/4d6 for a +3 enchament but that just me.
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Design Manager
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IMO even though normaly to like things do not stack that would not aply to Bane effects as the Bane effects that targets alignments/creature type are not the same so they would stack,One problem that I see is far to many people on the forums parse and over read the rules to try to make the rules say what they think the rules should say instead of just playing the game and have fun.
**EDITED FOR SPACE
You are in the Rules forum. People come here to determine what the rules say. That's why we parse and read the rules thoroughly, because people come here to find out precisely that. This analysis also helps determine if there are things in the rules requiring clarification by FAQ or Errata, as Pathfinder is a living community with an active development team who frequently takes part in these discussions. Doing what feels right is generally the correct way to go while playing, but that's not why people post questions in the Rules forum. They post here for discussion and clarification.
In this particular instance, I think the Bane weapon property is due for a FAQ or Errata, as a strict RAW interpretation would indicate you can't have multiple instances of Bane on the same weapon, and a developer has said he'd consider Bane vs. two different types of target to be two different enchantments on the same weapon, but did not choose to elaborate.
It's already been addressed and answered. A weapon can only be Bane to a creature once. Bane does not stack with itself, regardless of how many times an enemy qualifies. Same source trumps untyped, and it's called a Bane Enhancement, not a Bane(xxx) Enhancement.
So, no, you can't triple up a Bane on a demon. You can't be more anathema to it.
If you want to rule they stack, that's a house rule, and open to some tremendous amounts of abuse against specific enemies. A Bane is equal to a +4 enhancement against the chosen foe. Allowing stacking can very quickly lead to abuse. For the price of a +4 sword, you could have a weapon +7, +6d6 against Demons, or Devils. If you stack human and undead, +3 nets you +5, +4d6 against virtually all undead (most undead encountered were once human).
It just gets silly and worse from there.
==Aelryinth
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Design Manager
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It's already been addressed and answered. A weapon can only be Bane to a creature once. Bane does not stack with itself, regardless of how many times an enemy qualifies. Same source trumps untyped, and it's called a Bane Enhancement, not a Bane(xxx) Enhancement.
So, no, you can't triple up a Bane on a demon. You can't be more anathema to it.
If you want to rule they stack, that's a house rule, and open to some tremendous amounts of abuse against specific enemies. A Bane is equal to a +4 enhancement against the chosen foe. Allowing stacking can very quickly lead to abuse. For the price of a +4 sword, you could have a weapon +7, +6d6 against Demons, or Devils. If you stack human and undead, +3 nets you +5, +4d6 against virtually all undead (most undead encountered were once human).
It just gets silly and worse from there.
==Aelryinth
I rule this way as well, as there is only one Bane weapon enchantment listed in the table, with an accompanying table of possible designated foes. Confusion settles in because SKR said he would "consider evil outsider bane and chaotic outsider bane to be two different properties" and then chose not to give any further clarification. It creates a somewhat murky ground betwee devloper intent and RAW.
I personally think if you're going to allow multiple Bane properties on a single weapon, you should be looking at it as "Bane (Evil Outsider, Chaotic Outsider)" Not "Bane (Evil Outsider) and Bane (Chaotic Outsider)". You would just be widening the field the Bane property applies to.
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What is the diffrence between is an consider is.. SKR IS an rules develope unless he SKR or another DEV says somthing diffrent Consider carries the day with me.
In all of the time I have played pathfinder this has not come up and if I was GM the game I alawys rule in favor of the player if he or she is following what the inten of the rules are and not trying to pull a whooper on me.
Aelryinth could you explain how bane is a +4 enchament against one enemy? How do you get 7d6 for a +4 enchament the best I can come
is +1 weapon +1 bane [evil outsider] +2 holy or axiomatic. For a total of +5 to hit and +4d6 damage. if you add the second bane effect then it can come up with 7d6 but sence it there is disagreement on what consider actuallly means than you can only use it once. can you still get over 4d6?
There are two issues here that keep getting confused.
1) Can a weapon have multiple Bane Properties? SKR has indicated he considers them two different properties and thus yes you can put multiple Bane properties on one weapon.
2) If 1 is a yes, do multiple bane properties stack if a creature qualifies for each property?
The general consensus seems to be no but this has yet to be answered (that I have seen).
- Gauss
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A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.
Q: Does the Bane property confer a typed or untyped bonus?
A: Neither according to the rules as written. It would seem that the bane property does not confer any bonus. The Bane weapon property sets the weapon's enhancement bonus to +2 higher than its actual bonus (when relevant) against the designated foe.Q: What happens to the enhancement bonus if a weapon has multiple instances of the bane property that are relevant against a given foe?
A: If the bane weapon property sets the bonus to +2 higher than actual, and actual enhancement bonus is a constant between +1 to +5, then multiple instances of bane do the same thing.
Example
In example we will use a weapon we will call Demon-render a +1 Bane [Outsider (Evil)] Bane [Outsider (Chaotic)] Bane [Outsider (Demon)] longsword. Against a succubus, who has the outsider type and the three subtypes of outsider Demonrender calls out against, the enhancement bonus becomes +2 better than actual from each instance of the bane property, but the actual bonus of Demon-render is always +1. being set to +2 better than its actual bonus of +1 means that each time Demon-render's enhancement bonus is being set equal to +3.
Q:Does the the extra damage from multiple instances of the bane weapon property stack?
A: Yes. Each instance of the bane property also causes the weapon to deal an additional 2d6 points of damage against the foe. So Demon-render would act as a +3 weapon and deal an extra 6d6 points of damage against a succubus, who is an Outsider with the Evil, Chaotic and Demon subtypes.
This is how the bane weapon enhancement property appears to work as written
Note: I could have sworn that bane gave stacking bonuses, but according to the way the rules are written it does not.
Edit: Edited for clarity
P.S. I do not actually work for Paizo, just thought I would answer some questions as best I can since this is more complicated than it appears at first.
It's already been addressed and answered. A weapon can only be Bane to a creature once. Bane does not stack with itself, regardless of how many times an enemy qualifies. Same source trumps untyped, and it's called a Bane Enhancement, not a Bane(xxx) Enhancement.
So, no, you can't triple up a Bane on a demon. You can't be more anathema to it.
If you want to rule they stack, that's a house rule, and open to some tremendous amounts of abuse against specific enemies. A Bane is equal to a +4 enhancement against the chosen foe. Allowing stacking can very quickly lead to abuse. For the price of a +4 sword, you could have a weapon +7, +6d6 against Demons, or Devils. If you stack human and undead, +3 nets you +5, +4d6 against virtually all undead (most undead encountered were once human).
It just gets silly and worse from there.
==Aelryinth
I think spending 32,000 gp on a weapon that functions as a +1 sword against any creature that is not an Outsider typed creature with either the Evil, Chaotic or Demon subtypes (or an Outsider (Evil and/or Lawful and/or Devil) for a devil slaying weapon seems fair. Undead minions, golems, strategically placed hangman trees, dragon allies, mercenary outsiders, regular mercenary creatures or slaves are an easy way for demons or devils to deal with a character with such a weapon in their possession. Against any of the aforementioned critters, the weapon has only a +1 enhancement bonus, and nothing more. Can you say sunder or steal combat maneuver?
Also, a +1 Bane [Humanoid (Human)] Bane (Undead) sword would only work against a Humanoid Type creature of the Human subtype or an Undead creature. It would never stack to +4d6 against an Undead (Human) twice because the Undead (Human) is not a humanoid type creature with the human subtype it is an undead type creature.
If one was fighting an undead, evil outsider ...
Would a weapon with both the evil outsider & undedad bane properties stack? So if one was using a +3 evil outsider & undead bane longsword, would it become a +7 weapon with +4d6 damage?
Thanks guys.
The answer is that a creature cannot be both an Outsider and Undead. Outsider and Undead are both creature types, and you can only have one creature type. You can however have multiple subtypes, such as Outsider (Evil, Chaotic, Extraplanar)
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CRB wrote:
'A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.'
A creature is either one of the designated foes, or it isn't. Being designated twice or more is irrelevant.
There is actually nothing to stack! Are you a designated foe? Yes or no? If yes, take your lumps! If no, Bane won't do anything to you.
How do you know if you're a designated foe? Look at what types of creatures this weapon is Bane against! If you're on that list the weapon is Bane against you! If you're not on the list then it isn't!
CRB wrote:
'A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.'A creature is either one of the designated foes, or it isn't. Being designated twice or more is irrelevant.
There is actually nothing to stack! Are you a designated foe? Yes or no? If yes, take your lumps! If no, Bane won't do anything to you.
How do you know if you're a designated foe? Look at what types of creatures this weapon is Bane against! If you're on that list the weapon is Bane against you! If you're not on the list then it isn't!
I guess the definitive question is
Q: Is a Bane (Outsider (Evil)) Bane (Outsider (Demon)) weapon redundant?
Yes, it's redundant.
No, the extra damage dice doesn't stack.
A Bane by itself is equal to a +4 effect against the chosen foe. Each additional + of enhancement = +2, each d6 = +1 net untyped, = a +4 effect. Note that holy, unholy, etc that grant +2d6 are also +2.
Thus, IF you let them stack, a Sword +1, Bane (Evil Outsider), Bane (Chaotic OUtsider), Bane (Demons), would be +7, +6d6 against demonkind. It would be a +4 sword equiv in cost.
Yes, that would be an almighty sword of demon slaying. It would also be quite serviceable against other evil and chaotic outsiders.
=
But no, they don't stack.
The weapon is not multple times Bane. It's either Bane, or it isn't. Multiple versions of Bane expand who the sword is Bane against, it doesn't multiply the effect of the Bane. Same source and all.
Think of favored enemy. If you have FE (evil outsiders) and FE (Chaotic outsiders) do the FE bonuses stack against demons? No, use the best one.
Likewise, if you have FE (Humans) and FE (Orcs) do the bonuses stack against half-orcs?
No, use the best one. Same source trumps untyped damage.
==Aelryinth
As for as RAW goes:
Nothing in the description of Bane gives it a type. Therefore, I would say its an untyped bonus. I believe it would stack as written. I dont think this is intended cause it could just get silly.
It IS an untyped bonus.
It's also same source - the Bane enhancement. And same source does not stack, period.
==Aelryinth
It IS an untyped bonus.
It's also same source - the Bane enhancement. And same source does not stack, period.
==Aelryinth
I don't know that the source of the bonus actually matters, just the type. If the weapon is going to give +2d6 damage against an evil outsider and +2d6 damage against a lawful outsider, I would think it would give +4d6 against a lawful evil outsider. I like Archomedes point about the enhancement bonus only going up by 2, so I think it would be +2 enhancement +4d6 damage.
Also, for the record, in these cases the source isn't actually the same unless you think the sword itself is the source. If we are going to have multiple Banes on a weapon, they MUST be seperate properties. As such, you are gaining +2d6 damage once from each copy of Bane, not +4d6 from a single Bane property.
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The +2d6 damage is Bane damage! It no more stacks than multiple fire enchantments would.
In 3.5 there was no rule against the same enchantment being placed more than once on the same weapon; this was introduced in Pathfinder.
So why weren't we swamped by +1 flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming longswords, doing 1d8+1+9d6 fire? Because enchantments/spells/effects don't stack with themselves, then or now!