| 20 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There was this exchange with James Jacobs about Combat Reflexes and flat-footedness:
Not here. Post the question in a forum where the FAQ tag is enabled and hit it and then it'll go into the FAQ queue.Can this be FAQ'd, please with respect to Combat Reflexes in the surprise round?It's an action. It's not a free or a standard or a full-round or an immediate or a swift action, but it IS still an action. Since it's something you're doing.The other issue is that coms with AoO...
Is an AoO an action? I believe no.
Please FAQ this question so it gets this issue resolved.
Flat-Footed: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed."
Is there a difference between taking an AoO before your first turn in initiative and speaking as a free action before your first turn in initiative?
It's still before your first regular turn in initiative, so you're still flat-footed.
Is there an argument otherwise?
|
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
(emphasis mine)
You get to make AoO's while flat-footed. Doesn't say anything about removing the flat-footed condition, so you're still flat-footed after an AoO in the surprise round.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Flat-Footed: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed."
Is there a difference between taking an AoO before your first turn in initiative and speaking as a free action before your first turn in initiative?
It's still before your first regular turn in initiative, so you're still flat-footed.
Is there an argument otherwise?
The bolded section makes it sound like everyone is flat footed during the surprise round, even the ambushers.
I don't understand the question.
If you are flat footed, you cannot make attacks of opportunity.
If you take the Combat Reflexes feat, you can now make attacks of opportunity while flatfooted.
This is all black letter RAW, and the relevant quotes have been posted.
So, what is the question?
The bolded section makes it sound like everyone is flat footed during the surprise round, even the ambushers.
Technically, they are, as "a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin."
I would be absolutely astonished if "your first regular turn in the initiative order" isn't intended to include your turn during a surprise round in which you were not unaware.
So, what is the question?
The question is "Since taking an Attack of Opportunity is an action (in the sense that it's an act, something you do, rather than one of the game-defined types of action such as Standard or Swift), is making an AoO before your first regular turn in the initiative order considered having acted for the purposes of not being flat-footed?"
The answer is "No. If it's still before your first regular turn in the initiative order, then you are still flat-footed, even if you've taken an action."
Ahh, I see. Thanks Grick.
This is even a question? It seems to me that if the designers wanted to have combat reflexes eliminate the flat footed condition it would say that.
Regards,
Pol
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is even a question?
Their seems to be a general consensus that when you're not sure how X and Y interact, it's taboo to read the definitions of both X and Y (though it's acceptable to read one of them, just not both). It's much preferred to either ask for developer clarification while claiming "RAW is unclear" or else to speculate your own gut response and call it the "RAW" (until actual text contradicts it, in which case you re-label it "obvious intent" or "clear RAI").
Welcome to the Rules forum.
heheh... I've noticed that, Jiggy... this just seems to be much more clear cut than many I have seen lately...
An AoO is not an action.
Taking an AoO does not suddenly make you not flatfooted. Since you have still yet to act.
The benefit it grants is exactly what the text says.
Whether an AoO is or isn't an action is not actually defined in the rules. James Jacobs has one opinion. StreamOfTheSky has a different opinion.
I base my opinion on how the rule was in 3E and the fact that paizo has not changed the text, therefore the rule should still be the same.
PRD text:
Miscellaneous Actions
The following actions take a variable amount of time to accomplish or otherwise work differently than other actions.Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
Use Feat
Certain feats let you take special actions in combat. Other feats do not require actions themselves, but they give you a bonus when attempting something you can already do. Some feats are not meant to be used within the framework of combat. The individual feat descriptions tell you what you need to know about them.Use Skill
Most skill uses are standard actions, but some might be move actions, full-round actions, free actions, or something else entirely.The individual skill descriptions in Using Skills tell you what sorts of actions are required to perform skills.
3.5 SRD text:
Miscellaneous Actions
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
Use Feat
Certain feats let you take special actions in combat. Other feats do not require actions themselves, but they give you a bonus when attempting something you can already do. Some feats are not meant to be used within the framework of combat. The individual feat descriptions tell you what you need to know about them.Use Skill
Most skill uses are standard actions, but some might be move actions, full-round actions, free actions, or something else entirely.The individual skill descriptions tell you what sorts of actions are required to perform skills
Basically copy/paste job. "But, they're labeled 'miscellaneous actions!' " you say. Yes...the game designers just used that as a catchall term for stuff in combat that didn't fit the "action" mold. Action is a defined game term, there are swift, immediate, free, move, standard, full round, full attack...maybe some others I'm forgetting...actions. Anything that cannot be categorized into one of these places is only "action" in the general English sense, it is not "an action" as in...one of those listed.
This was confirmed and clarified by Skip Williams here.
Nonaction: A nonaction is an activity that effectively takes no time at all (as opposed to a free action, which takes an insignificant amount of time), but it nevertheless involves some effort on your part. Often, a nonaction is something that you do as part of another action, such as making a Use Magic Device skill check while trying to activate a magic wand. Activating the wand is a standard action and making the check is not an action at all. Some activities that are described in the rules as free actions are actually nonactions; one example is trying to establish a hold on a foe after a successful grab in a grapple attack. (Readers may remember the entry for "Not an Action" on page 139 of the Player's Handbook.)
A 5-foot step is a nonaction you can use to move a short distance when you don't otherwise move during your turn; see Rules of the Game: All About Movement.
Many nonactions are things you can do when it's not your turn, such as making opposed checks to avoid being disarmed or tripped or making an attack of opportunity.
Until Paizo makes a rule to contradict this, it should be treated as the RAW by precedent. And JJ's opinions are not rules, as he makes sure to state.
That is my argument as to why AoO is not even an action and the OP's question isn't even an issue.
|
Here are some direct quotes from the Core Rulebook. I also cross referenced the current errata to ensure there were no changes.
pg 178: "At the start of the battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed."
pg 119, under Combat Reflexes: " With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed."
Let's assume it's the first round of combat and you have a 14 initiative and the orcs have a 16. Your GM isn't metagaming so the first orc is going try to bull rush you over the cliff without the Improved Bull Rush feat and you have the Combat Reflexes feat. You are currently flat-footed because it is "before your first regular turn in the initiative order", but Combat Reflexes allows you to "make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed." You are currently flat-footed and make your attack of opportunity "before your first regular turn in the initiative order." You kill the orc and he doesn't get to finish his bull rush attempt. When the second orc comes up and wisely decides to just swing his falchion at you, you are flat-footed because you still haven't taken "your first regular turn in the initiative order".
Rules as written say nothing about Combat Reflexes removing the flat-footed condition, the feat just allows you to do something you normally could not under such a condition. There would have to be specific text mentioning a removal of said condition, and to my knowledge that text does not exist. Now, it is possible that the rules as intended conflict with the rules as written, but only official Paizo People of Post-print Problem-solving could answer that.
Whether an AoO is or isn't an action is not actually defined in the rules. James Jacobs has one opinion. StreamOfTheSky has a different opinion.
Actually actions are game defined terms, and AoO's don't use actions.
|
|
The bolded section makes it sound like everyone is flat footed during the surprise round, even the ambushers.Technically, they are, as "a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin."
I would be absolutely astonished if "your first regular turn in the initiative order" isn't intended to include your turn during a surprise round in which you were not unaware.
They can be surprised and so flat footed.
Example:
Burly the orc and his 3 companions are ambushing a group of adventurers.
They have +1 stealth and are taking 10 as they had the time to set up the ambush, for a total of +11 on their stealth check. They have +0 to the initiative check.
The ambushed are Mort the perceptive and his companions. Mort is a rogue with +10 perception and +7 initiative, his 3 companions are deaf to the world and have +0 perception and initiative.
The encounter being at a range of 10' as the ambush happen in a confined area.
Even rolling a 1 Mort will notice the ambushers so he is not surprised.
We roll perception for the group, Mort get a 7, for a total of 17 perception, easily noticing the orcs and a nice 20 in initiative, for a total of 7.
The orcs get 11, 11,11, 11 [they are very average;-)].
So while the orc ar drawing a bead on the group Mort whip out a dagger (with quickdraw) and nail Burly with a sneak attack.
The orcs were set for the ambush and they thought they were ready for the party reaction, but Mort ability to spot and his reaction were so fast that he was capable to counter-ambush the orcs.
The orcs were set for the ambush and they thought they were ready for the party reaction, but Mort ability to spot and his reaction were so fast that he was capable to counter-ambush the orcs.
The problem is everyone is still flat footed. The orcs, Mort, and his deaf friends.
Lets say one orc beat Mort's init.
Surprise round-
Init 29: Boss orc shoots an arrow at Mort, who is flat-footed
Init 27: Mort throws a dagger at boss orc, who is flat-footed
Init 11: The other orcs shoot arrows at the party, all of whom are flat-footed.
Round 1-
Init 29: Boss orc shoots Mort again, who is still flat-footed
Init 27: Mort throws a dagger at boss orc, who is NOT flat footed since he's acted in his first regular turn in the initiative order
Init 11: The other orcs shoot people. The deaf companions are flat-footed, Mort is not
Init 1: Deaf companions figure out what's going on, and act
The reason Mort is still flat-footed even after he's acted in the surprise round is because the rules say "before your first regular turn in the initiative order" and the surprise round "happens before regular rounds begin." So even if you've already acted, you still have to wait for your init in round 1 to stop being flat-footed.
This is kind of silly, I think, thus I assume the intent is that "your first regular turn in the initiative order" includes the non-regular turn taken in a surprise round if you are able to act.
As written, everyone is flat-footed in the surprise round, even if they're not surprised and have acted in combat.
Yes everyone IS flatfooted until they make their first action.
If by "first action" you mean "first regular turn in the initiative order" then you are correct.
However if you actually mean "action" as one of the game-defined actions (like standard move free etc.) then you are incorrect.
In the text you quoted, Coridan was having a problem with the fact that you can act in a surprise round and still be flat-footed because the surprise round is before your first regular turn in the initiative order.
Rules are funny that way. But I was answering the specific question, not the original post.
Except your answer could be intepreted incorrectly. By saying "until" that implies that after you take your first action, you are no longer flat-footed. And while there is an instance of the rulebook using "action" to mean "turn", it's still incorrect as you may be able to take a turn in a surprise round, in which you act, yet still are flat-footed because it's not your regular turn.
|
|
Grick, you are giving an interpretation to "regular turn" that is written anywhere.
"Regular turn" don't mean "your turn in the regular round".
Read the whole paragraph on surprise:
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Again, flat footed:
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
"Regular turn" isn't a good choice of therm as it can make you think that it refer to a "regular round", but the other text in both pieces put it in the right context: "before you have had a chance to act". It mean the first time you get to act at your initiative, not the first time you act in the non-surprise round.
Grick, you are giving an interpretation to "regular turn" that is written anywhere.
"Regular turn" don't mean "your turn in the regular round".
"The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin."
By definition, the surprise round is not a regular round.
Thus, your turn in the surprise round is not a regular turn.
Being able to take a standard or move in the non-regular surprise round is not a "regular turn."
In order to not be flat-footed, you must meet two prerequisites:
1) be past your first regular turn in the initiative order
2) act
This is why someone who acts before their turn (via speaking or AoO or whatever) is still flat-footed, and it's also why someone who was asleep for 6 rounds before waking up is still flat-footed despite being past their first regular turn.
If they just removed "regular" from the specification in flat-footed, everything would work out well.
'At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first (...) turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.'
Which is how everyone is probably running it anyway.
|
Being able to take a standard or move in the non-regular surprise round is not a "regular turn."
I'd have to disagree with you there - it's "your regular turn in the initiative" (i.e. not an Attack of Opportunity, &c.), just taking place in the surprise round, not in a regular round.
In order to not be flat-footed, you must meet two prerequisites:
1) be past your first regular turn in the initiative order
2) act
Or, to be precise, have a chance to act. If you do nothing (or even choose to delay) you would no longer be flat-footed.
If they just removed "regular" from the specification in flat-footed, everything would work out well.
'At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first (...) turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.'
Which is how everyone is probably running it anyway.
Well, everybody who's familiar enough with the rules, anyway. I've seen quite a lot of GMs forget to apply the flat-footed condition.
Having a turn in the surprise round makes you no longer flatfooted. In fact, there's an actual (crappy) rogue talent devoted solely to treating foes flatfooted in the surprise round even though they've already had their turn.
Although I suppose it wouldn't be the first time paizo put out a feat or class feature that literally did nothing... *coughproneshootercough*