| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
There's been a problem since the beginning of 3rd edition on this front. The number of unarmed attacks that a person has was never defined.
In my opinion, there are only two possible options here:
1) You own a single unarmed attack with infinite number of striking surfaces
2) You own an infinite number of unarmed attacks as each striking surface is its own weapon
Both are equally valid interpretations from the evidence I've seen. If the first is true, then, no, you can't TWF Unarmed strikes only. If the second is true, then yes, of course you can TWF Unarmed strikes.
For what it's worth, I've always gone with the latter.
To be honest, I've always felt two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes is what justified the cost of 'amulet of mighty fists' (because essentially anyone can two-weapon fight with unarmed strikes, and thus the cost of the amulet would have to account for two-weapon fighting). Out of curiosity, what did James say on the matter BBT?
Because they are 'light weapons' (and like with every other manufactured weapon) you are limited by your BAB progression when determining the amount of attacks you can make.
For example, a character (for whatever reason) might have 'access' to several different weapons (spiked armor, blade boot, and a dagger in each hand. However, just because you have 4 different weapons DOES NOT mean you can make 4 different attacks.
You are still restricted by your BAB when determining your attacks (the only exception to this rule is with natural attacks).
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I'm not talking about multiple iteratives, I'm talking about off-hand attacks for the first iterative attack. Spiked armor specifies in the item description that you cannot use it in conjunction with other off-hand attacks. It wouldn't need to do this if this were the default state. So, again, where is it written that if I'm at +5 Bab and have a dagger in each hand, I can't attack with DaggerA as main-hand plus DaggerB, FootA, FootB, and Head as off-hand attacks? Cause if it isn't written that you can't and each hand, foot, and your head are considered as having their own unarmed strike, then you can very well do this.
The ability to make off-hand attacks like that is Two-Weapon Fighting, not "as many weapons as you have available fighting."
Multi-weapon Fighting requires that you have three or more hands, and the number of attacks you make are limited by the number of hands you have.
You can't make attacks that exceed your BAB progression and two-weapon fighting, which is precisely what you are implying (natural attacks being the exception).
Take your duel-wielding dagger user for example. With a BAB of +5, your attack sequence can look like this -
dagger +3/dagger +3
dagger +3/unarmed strike +3
unarmed strike +3/Unarmed strike +3
During an attack sequence, you are allowed attacks with your main-hand and off-hand, if you so choose. Your 'main-hand' attacks are restricted by your BAB, and off-hand attacks can be increased via feats. You cannot designate multiple weapons to act as your 'main-hand' strike unless you do so in the following fashion:
For example -
Lets say your BAB was +6/+1 and you had a dagger in one hand with a morningstar in the other (with improved unarmed strike and two-weapon fighting). Your attack sequence can look like this -
morningstar +6/morningstar +1
dagger +6/dagger +1
morningstar +6/dagger +1
dagger +6/morningstar +1
unarmed strike +6/dagger +1
unarmed strike +6/unarmed strike +1
morningstar +6/ unarmed strike +1
unarmed strike +6/morningstar +1
dagger +6/unarmed strike +1
morningstar +4/dagger +4/morningstar -1
morningstar +4/unarmed strike +4/dagger -1
dagger +4/unarmed strike +4/morningstar -1
dagger +4/morningstar +4/unarmed strike -1
unarmed strike +4/unarmed strike +4/unarmed strike -1
(whew...I think it got all of them)
Anyway, the point is that all of the above attack sequences are legal for a character with the above-mentioned weapons. As I said, even though you can have a multitude of different weapons, you are still only limited to a single 'main-hand' strike via your BAB progression. You are allowed 'off-hand' strikes of course, but in order to increase the 'off-hand' strikes further, you need the feats.
Hope that explained it for ya ;)
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Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Now if you want to claim that you have more than one off hand weapon thats all well and good a fighter can have the same thing going with a good boulder helmet some boot blades and some armor spikes to go with his pair of weapons. Now sure you can claim your using multiweapon fighting if you want your 5 attacks without letting the other guy in the same stchick with all his weapons.
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
Now notices the special since you lack more than two arms you can't get the feat which means that if you attack with more than one off-hand your now taking the full penalties of not having any form of feat reduction to the attacks.
This has been argued before to death. neither side will budge just hit the FAQ button.
Thats fine note i even called that out however you dont't get the feat only the ability to make the extra attacks.
So your looking at -4 main hand and a -8 to each off hand. Yeah I'd let you do it all day your beating your self on penalties.
And like I said anyone can have 2 swords 2 boot blades 1 helmet or beard going for them which is the same number of attacks than your putting out and each is on a different limb. So either we have all been wrong on how TWF works all along and you can use as many weapons as you have limbs.......... Or maybe its one extra attack unless you have some more arms to attack with.
I'll break it down into my basic logic before i start a 2 hour trip.
We have 2 varying positions here.
Unarmed strike is one weapon unless your a monk.
Unarmed strike is several different weapons that follow the normal weapon rules for how many attacks can be made with them.
In terms of evidence neither side has produced a winning blow so we look to common sense and balance.
If your not causing anything game breaking by allowing it; and short of the absurd claims of neboulus numbers of attacks based on how i break down every joint and limb on my body it can't.
And it makes sense to allow it; such as being able to punch with only one hand until you wear gloves.
Then the common sense and in my opinion the RAI would allow it.
To those asking about PFS Ill post over there when i;m setteled and see what the multitude of GMs think.
Great so can we TWF with Unarmed strikes? It seems that SKR is saying you can. I think you can....
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Well, my question on whether or not a monk is the only one who can make unarmed strikes while their hands are occupied doesn't seem like such a dumb question anymore.
Found this gem the other day. Poisoner's Gloves, UE, pg 239.
"The wearer can deliver the dose to a target as a melee touch attack or as part of an unarmed strike or natural attack with the hands (such as a claw or slam attack). The wearer can use both gloves in the same round using two-weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks (such as two claws or two slams)."
There you go. Another nail in the coffin that is people arguing you can't TWF with Unarmed Strikes. Unlike the barbarian rage power, there is no wiggle room for what is intended with this game element. As the gloves can only be used with unarmed attacks (or natural weapons), there is zero room for misreading this paragraph when it refers to two weapon fighting. It HAS to be used with unarmed strikes.
he nails it! refute that
bY raw you can make UAS with a tongue......
any ruling yet?
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bY raw you can make UAS with a tongue......
Well, sort of.
...the rules are assuming you are using your left hand and right hand, but hand-waves the idea that one of those "hands" could be some other body part such as an elbow, kick, or headbutt.
I believe the rules are saying that you make UAS with your hands, but there is no reason you can't describe such an attack as being made with your tongue.
EDIT: edit out the edit.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Additionally:
The core rules assume that you're a humanoid creature and you only have two "limbs" to attack with each round if you're using the "fighting with two weapons" option.
If an attack is made with a greatsword, no further UAS would be allowed because both limbs are being used to make the attack.
On the other hand, if no greatsword attack is being made, I concede that the player may make two UAS attacks instead (punch & kick, 2 kicks, punch & head-butt, etc).
Found this gem the other day. Poisoner's Gloves, UE, pg 239.
"The wearer can deliver the dose to a target as a melee touch attack or as part of an unarmed strike or natural attack with the hands (such as a claw or slam attack). The wearer can use both gloves in the same round using two-weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks (such as two claws or two slams)."
There you go. Another nail in the coffin that is people arguing you can't TWF with Unarmed Strikes. Unlike the barbarian rage power, there is no wiggle room for what is intended with this game element. As the gloves can only be used with unarmed attacks (or natural weapons), there is zero room for misreading this paragraph when it refers to two weapon fighting. It HAS to be used with unarmed strikes.
I think this proves you can?
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Lobolusk, i blame you. ;)
The simple answer is you can TWF with unarmed strikes. Be that with a fist or a kick, a knee or an elbow. Why it needs to be complicated, is a cage of your own contrivance. Its simple, if you let it be simple.
There are rules, well explained already by devs, for how to fight with multiple weapons in an iterative sequence, and how to twf when you have multiple weapons at your disposal. The constraints of TWF and iterative attacks are there for characters, to limit the number of attacks they can take in a round.
no one is getting around that by having five or more available options for which unarmed strike to use. Unarmed strike is just a blanket term for any of the humanoid (x)'s unarmed natural attacks. Which are treated differently because though every creature is proficient with its natural attacks, the unarmed strike (blanket term used), provokes an attack of opportunity when not trained properly.
if you have two swords, quickdraw, armor spikes and a boot knife. you've got lots of options for what to do in a round. you're still limited to your iterative attacks, and whether you're twf or not. Its the same with unarmed strikes.
i'm hiding this thread. its useless and pointless. Lobolusk, i'm sorry your character question was obscured by the nonsense that ensued.
thank you I feel the same way until I posted this thread I never the depth of how inane people could be....
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So, we are back to free hands needed to kick.
I am tired of those quoting SKR's comments in the Tentacle thread that he clearly stated were not RAW.
No. We are not.
Apparently you completely disregarded the second part of my post where I acknowledged that one could make unarmed strikes while holding the greatsword.
If you're going to call me out, man-up and call me out. Don't allude; it's insulting.
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here is my build I went brass knuckle I need to change the name since I no longer grapple and am not a master at it. Talenvor works for me. couldn't find a way in hero lab to allow me to give my self 2 unarmed strikes so it couldn't calculate the TWF it still does it kinda weird.
Looks good. Brass knuckles are a nice option to enchant your weapons cheaper. Ultimate Equipment has some stuff that would work nicely for a Brawler, Brawling armor is a +1 enhancement that gives +2 to attack/damage with unarmed strikes? and there's body wraps that can be used to give your unarmed strike + to attack/damage, based on your bab and the +1 of the wrap. ( brass knuckles will still be cheaper )
I like to write my own stat blocks
I'd add one for your base attacks, in case you take a standard attack
Melee +1 Conductive, Corrosive Cold Iron Brass Knuckles +18/+13 (1d3+19/19-20 plus 1d6 acid)
Melee TWF + Power Attack
+1 Conductive, Corrosive Cold Iron Brass Knuckles +16/+11 (1d3+19/19-20 plus 1d6 acid) and
+1 Flaming, Frost Adamantine Brass Knuckles +16/+11 (1d3+16/19-20 plus 1d6 fire, 1d6 cold)
( b/c not being a monk, your off hand brass knuckle is treated as a light weapon, gaining only -3/+3 from the power attack)
A level of monk could offer the following: free basic TWF with the flurry. but since you're going fighter, don't dump stat points into wis and depend on flurry. just take monk for the Unarmed strike and (free) double slice effectively. Monk's robe would also give you 1d8 instead of 1d6 or 1d3.
+1 conductive, corrosive cold iron brass knuckle cost: ( by the way. why conductive? your build doesn't have any abilities like smite or channel that he would be using through the weapon? ) 20,301gp.
+1 flaming, frost adamantine brass knuckles: 21,001gp.
for a monk 1/brawler 9, an amulet of mighty fists +2 for 20k gp, or +3 for 45k gp. could give you +1 flaming, frost unarmed strike, or, whats usually nicer, +1 holy or just holy unarmed strike. for +2d6 against any evil creature, and Good damage.
you'd lose one off your bab, probably gain some saves.
with amulet of mighty fists (holy), +2 brawling mithril chainmail, and monk's robes. I guestimated at the $$'s, but you can figure it out.
and your TWF could look like:
Melee TWF + Power Attack
holy unarmed strike +16/+16/+11/+11 (1d8+20/19-20 plus 2d6 holy)
+9 bab, +6 str, +2 gwf, +2 close combatant, +2 brawling armor -2 twf -3 pa = +16 to hit
+6 str, +4 close combatant, +2 specialization, +2 brawling armor, +6 pa = +20 to damage
plus you would get improved unarmed strike free, not need double slice, and have another free feat from monk 1, like dodge or combat reflexes, which would free up other feats in your tree. and Stunning Fist ( DC 15 at 10th level, not great, but maybe a caster will fail? ). since you're not taking the use of Flurry from monk, you could take an archetype that replaces flurry with something you might use, or just scrap Flurry.
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So, we are back to free hands needed to kick.
I am tired of those quoting SKR's comments in the Tentacle thread that he clearly stated were not RAW.
No. We are not.
Apparently you completely disregarded the second part of my post where I acknowledged that one could make unarmed strikes while holding the greatsword.
If you're going to call me out, man-up and call me out. Don't allude, it's insulting.
Sorry, sarcasm doesn't translate well via text.
Sorry, sarcasm doesn't translate well via text.So, we are back to free hands needed to kick.
I am tired of those quoting SKR's comments in the Tentacle thread that he clearly stated were not RAW.
No. We are not.
Apparently you completely disregarded the second part of my post where I acknowledged that one could make unarmed strikes while holding the greatsword.
If you're going to call me out, man-up and call me out. Don't allude, it's insulting.
not to mention BBT is a 14 year old girl...lol
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Sorry, sarcasm doesn't translate well via text.
Heh, I know what you mean. I've been there too! It's all good!
Please allow me to expand upon my post to better explain my position.
The core rules assume that you're a humanoid creature and you only have two "limbs" to attack with each round if you're using the "fighting with two weapons" option. It doesn't matter if you're making a headbutt and a punch, or a kick and a punch, or 2 kicks, or 2 punches, you're just making two attacks per round. At no time would you ever be able to justify a BAB +0 creature with no natural weapons making 2 punches AND 2 kicks per round: because the rules are assuming you are using your left hand and right hand, but hand-waves the idea that one of those "hands" could be some other body part such as an elbow, kick, or headbutt. The rules don't care, in the same way that they don't care if you say you're making a high swing or a low swing: it is irrelevant to the game mechanics, which say "make an attack roll to see if you hit." The game says, "pick a hand, even if it's not really a hand, make an attack, then pick another hand, even if it's not really a hand, and make a second attack.
It is therefore acknowledged that a standard character has two limbs available with which to attack in a round. If that character wanted to attack with both in the same round, they must TWF to use the second limb. This is consistent with how the rules are currently written.
Now, up-thread, I made the assertion that if a character had both hands occupied, they would be unable to make an unarmed strike—I am changing my position on this issue. A fighter carrying a greatsword in one hand may make an UAS with the other hand and a second UAS with a foot, for example. If, for some reason, the fighter chose to hold on to the greatsword with both hands, he may make an UAS with one foot and a second with the other foot. The fighter is only ever using two limbs: the first is making an attack granted by BAB, the second is an off-hand attack granted by TWF.
On the other hand, if the fighter wanted to TWF by attacking with his greatsword and an UAS—this would not be possible. To make this attack combination, the fighter would have to use three limbs, when he is only granted the ability to use two.
Now, BBT, you had mentioned the boot-blade (you mentioned others, but the boot-blade is the one that I remember right now) as a counter to my uncorrected assertion that the fighter could not make UAS with a greatsword. You are correct in that the boot-blade can be used while attacking with a 2H weapon—not because the fighter can kick, but because the boot-blade is a weapon that is an exception to the rule that allows the fighter to make an off-hand attack when he normally would not be able to do so.
Does this help clarify what I posted before?
here is my build I went brass knuckle I need to change the name since I no longer grapple and am not a master at it. Talenvor works for me. couldn't find a way in hero lab to allow me to give my self 2 unarmed strikes so it couldn't calculate the TWF it still does it kinda weird.
Looks good. Brass knuckles are a nice option to enchant your weapons cheaper. Ultimate Equipment has some stuff that would work nicely for a Brawler, Brawling armor is a +1 enhancement that gives +2 to attack/damage with unarmed strikes? and there's body wraps that can be used to give your unarmed strike + to attack/damage, based on your bab and the +1 of the wrap. ( brass knuckles will still be cheaper )
I like to write my own stat blocks
I'd add one for your base attacks, in case you take a standard attackMelee +1 Conductive, Corrosive Cold Iron Brass Knuckles +18/+13 (1d3+19/19-20 plus 1d6 acid)
Melee TWF + Power Attack
+1 Conductive, Corrosive Cold Iron Brass Knuckles +16/+11 (1d3+19/19-20 plus 1d6 acid) and
+1 Flaming, Frost Adamantine Brass Knuckles +16/+11 (1d3+16/19-20 plus 1d6 fire, 1d6 cold)( b/c not being a monk, your off hand brass knuckle is treated as a light weapon, gaining only -3/+3 from the power attack)
A level of monk could offer the following: free basic TWF with the flurry. but since you're going fighter, don't dump stat points into wis and depend on flurry. just take monk for the Unarmed strike and (free) double slice effectively. Monk's robe would also give you 1d8 instead of 1d6 or 1d3.
+1 conductive, corrosive cold iron brass knuckle cost: ( by the way. why conductive? your build doesn't have any abilities like smite or channel that he would be using through the weapon? ) 20,301gp.
+1 flaming, frost adamantine brass knuckles: 21,001gp.for a monk 1/brawler 9, an amulet of mighty fists +2 for 20k gp, or +3 for 45k gp. could give you +1 flaming, frost unarmed strike, or, whats usually nicer, +1 holy or just holy unarmed strike. for +2d6...
I have updated the character 100 times over I will post my final build later today.
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If you argue that way, then the fighter could not use a boot-blade and greatsword in the the same round.
The problem there is that the boot-blade is an actual defined weapon, not an unarmed strike. The fact that the attack is being made by kicking your foot is mechanically irrelevant. Making such a distinction is just the same as saying hand(unarmed strike) or hand(long sword) should not be treated different.
The rule is: a standard race BAB +0 creature may not use more than two limbs in a single round. The boot-blade is an exception to that rule, because it allows a 2H-weapon fighter to get in an extra off-hand attack with a weapon when they would normally not be able to do so.
EDIT: organization
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@HangarFlying how does that work with a double weapon, If an attack is made with a greatsword, no further UAS would be allowed because both limbs are being used to make the attack.
But if I have TWF i can make an extra attack with my double swordwhich is a two handed weapon.
per your quote:
It doesn't matter if you're making a headbutt and a punch, or a kick and a punch, or 2 kicks, or 2 punches, you're just making two attacks per round.
so it doesnot matter if i make the extras attack with the double weapon or kick, then TWF would apply equally to the great sword.
Because a double weapon is an exception that specifically states that you can. Furthermore, when TWF with a double weapon, you don't make both attacks with the same head; the extra attack must be made with the other head. Your primary attack is with one head, and the off-hand attack is made with the other head—much like you would be if using two separate weapons.
With regards to the greatsword (and other 2H weapons), both the primary hand and the off-hand are being used to make an attack with one weapon—hence, the 1.5 STR bonus to damage.
EDIT: additionally, with regards to a double weapon, nothing is stopping you from making your primary attack with one head and an off-hand attack with an UAS (kick, head-butt, etc.).
Grapple Master
Male Versatile Human (Mwangi) Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) 9 Monk (Tetori) 1
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 20, flat-footed 18 (+3 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 85 (9d10+1d8+10)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +10; +2 vs. exhausted, fatigued, staggered, or temporary penalties to ability scores, +1 vs. exhausted, fatigued, staggered, or temporary penalties to ability scores
Defensive Abilities harsh training +2; DR 4/lethal
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d6+16/x2)
Special Attacks trick throw, weapon training +2
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Statistics
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Str 25, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 20, Cha 9
Base Atk +9; CMB +16 (+23 Grappling); CMD 36 (45 vs. Dirty Trick, 48 vs. Grapple)
Feats Ability Focus +2 DC Stunning Fist, Bonebreaker, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Jawbreaker, Mantis Style, Pinning Rend, Power Attack -3/+6, Rapid Grappler, Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 20), Stunning Pin, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Caretaker, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+16 to jump), Heal +18, Perception +14
Languages Common, Polyglot
SQ ac bonus +5, clever wrestler, graceful grappler, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike (1d6), versatile human
Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +4), Bracers of armor +3, Gauntlet of the skilled maneuver (grapple), Headband of inspired wisdom +2, You have no money!
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Bonebreaker Deal Str or Dex damage when using Stunning Fist
Clever Wrestler (Ex) At 7th level, an unarmed fighter takes no penalties to Dexterity or on attack rolls while grappled, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC while pinning an opponent. The unarmed fighter can make attacks of opportunity even when grappled and even again
Damage Reduction (4/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Graceful Grappler (Ex) A tetori uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine CMB and CMD for grappling. At 4th level, he suffers no penalties on attack rolls, can make attacks of opportunity while grappling, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when
Greater Grapple +2 to grapple, maintaining a grapple is a move action.
Harsh Training +2 (Ex) +2 Will save vs. effects that cause exhausted, fatigued, or staggered conditions or temporary penalties to ability scores
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Jawbreaker With successful Stunning Fist, you may cripple opponent's mouth
Mantis Style Gain +1 use of Stunning Fist per day, and increase stunning fist DC by +2
Pinning Rend Against pinned opponent, you may deal bleed damage with Grapple check
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Grappler Spend a swift action to make a combat maneuver check to grapple while using Greater Grapple
Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 20) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Stunning Pin Use Stunning Fist against pinned opponents
Trick Throw (Ex) Attempt a dirty trick maneuver on a foe you successfully trip with an unarmed attack.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Versatile Human While they lack some of the training of other humans, the natural talents of versatile humans more than make up for this lack. Replace the +2 bonus to any ability score, the skilled racial trait, and the bonus feat racial trait with dual talent.
Weapon Training +2 (Ex) +2 to hit and damage with monk and natural weapons.
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