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One of the most common requests for rules changes in Pathfinder is to alter the role of magic items. Some people want gritty, low-magic settings, others just want magic items to be really fantastic and not "ho hum, another +2 leather armor... into the bag!"
My favored approach is to just award the treasure I like, and tweak the campaign as I go along. This is how I run low-magic settings, too; just edit out the magic and use trial and error to keep things on track. It is an indispensable approach that all GMs should try first when undertaking these kinds of changes.
Having done this many a time, for my most recent campaign (starting up Legacy of Fire again at book 3ish), I have decided to use more invasive measures. The Legacy of Fire campaign must have magic items in abundance, but I frankly have no need for +3 longswords diluting the majesty of my flying carpets, instant fortresses and genie lamps.
But! I am also going to GM Kingmaker soon, and I would like to run that campaign with a much lower level of magic. Only a handful of magic objects, laden with immense power and terrible fates! The majority of folks in that campaign are serfs and peasants grubbing about in the dirt, with nary a +2 shovel to be seen.
The third and final ingredient is my intense distaste for the tracking of Gold Pieces and the looting of bodies. A little looting is fine, thematic, realistic, even. What chafes is the game's assumption that not only does a magical rusty ogre hook exist, it must be liquidated in order for the players to remain competitive. In my last campaign, the players hit a wall (a dragon wall) where it became evident that a gear upgrade was mandatory, and the only way to afford it was to sell everything they'd acquired up until that point. From then on, in that campaign, wealth tracking became cumbersome.
I often run APs, so the amount of treasure kitted out on NPCs is not something I want to tamper with directly. Not letting the players loot, and starving them for items but letting the NPCs use them, that's not really fair. What I need is a flexible method of editing the magic items available to PCs.
I researched the solutions discussed on the forum, and I was really impressed by many of them, specifically the heroic distinctions from "My Solution to the Xmas Tree Effect", but they are a little too fiddly for my liking. In that thread, the esteemed Ashiel recommended simply making the "big 6" bonuses automatic, and provided his/her ratios for level awards. I used that as a starting point.
Automatic Bonuses by Level
The following bonuses are acquired automatically at the listed levels. Magic items that normally confer these bonuses no longer do so, but all other benefits remain. The Purchase DC* for items with both an enhancement bonus and an effect (e.g. a flaming sword must also be a +1 sword) remains the same as if it had the enhancement bonus.Note that the automatic enhancement bonus to attacks does not qualify as magic for the purposes of damage reduction. A weapon needs to possess at least one magical quality (e.g. a returning dagger) to bypass damage reduction of the magic type.
Type................................Automatic Bonus
Attacks and Damage .........+1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Saving Throws...................+1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Armor...............................if equipped, +1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Shield...............................if equipped, +1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Physical Ability Scores.......+2 to any one per 3 levels (max +6)
Mental Ability Scores ........+2 to any one per 3 levels (max +6)The dragonscale amulet (natural armor bonus) and ring of protection (deflection bonus) exist in lesser (+2, minor item) and greater (+4, medium item) varieties. Both create visible effects and are activated by a command word as a standard action, whereupon they remain active for the sortie**.
* Purchase DC refers to a variation of the Wealth Rules from True20, another house rule in my campaign.
**Sortie is a measure of time from my Abstract Durations house rule.
The values presented here are slightly lower than those that Ashiel suggested, probably because I like a challenging game, but also because my players are rarely so well-covered in the big six bonuses in all of these areas.
The auto bonus rule is well received by my players. Even those who didn't have grievances with the RAW item rules generally prefer their character to improve as an individual; becoming smarter rather than relying on a performance-enhancing headband, for instance.
As a GM, it is amusing to go through an Adventure Path and see just how much treasure can be edited out from the statblocks. I've only reviewed a few issues, but it looks like fully 80-90% of NPC gear can be eliminated under this rule. Things that make the cut are generally weapon special abilities (like wounding and returning) and quirky items like the chime of opening and, of course, all the potions, scrolls and wands.
I'm still testing the rule out, of course, and I haven't put it to use in a low-magic campaign quite yet. Still, I thought I'd share and see what people thought, and maybe you all can poke some holes in it for me before they come up mid-session.
I do like it. my only problem is so many bonuses given freely when in the games i play in and run we rarely even buy all that stuff. the big 6 get bought but one player usually doesnt have all of them. only a few of them. for example my gunslinger in our current campaign doesnt have any stat or save boosting items. this goes for other. too.
maybe they can pick a small number of those listed? i just think that the +2 stat every three levels is too much since it will diminish the +1 every four levels.
either way, id like to put this rule in that pdf EL when u get it finished if u dont mind.
I do like it. my only problem is so many bonuses given freely when in the games i play in and run we rarely even buy all that stuff. the big 6 get bought but one player usually doesnt have all of them. only a few of them. for example my gunslinger in our current campaign doesnt have any stat or save boosting items. this goes for other. too.
This is why I low-balled the values a bit from Ashiel's initial suggestions, to match my own taste. I'm sure every GM has their own "sweet spot" for this kind of thing, but my aim was to have the PCs stats be roughly equivalent to what they had with xmas tree effect. Meaning, they won't have a harder time because of missing items.
maybe they can pick a small number of those listed? i just think that the +2 stat every three levels is too much since it will diminish the +1 every four levels.
As you said, your gunslinger doesn't have a stat booster... I'm guessing that if he's higher than 5th or 6th level, this is highly abnormal for a Pathfinder character not to have at least a booster for his most important stat (or 2)! I'm basing my assumptions on the results of my last campaign (Rise of the Runelords) and trying to match the values they had at various levels, or slightly less. Of course your mileage will vary.
either way, id like to put this rule in that pdf EL when u get it finished if u dont mind.
Thanks! But I'd like you to hold off on this one. Unlike some of my other rules offerings, this one isn't quite done baking yet.
Thats why i said when you finish it ;-)
in the campaign im in we are 11th level. i just have other things id like to buy first
Thats why i said when you finish it ;-)
in the campaign im in we are 11th level. i just have other things id like to buy first
Since so much regarding treasure is subjective, let me ask you, are you playing an AP? By 11th level in Rise of the Runelords, my players had so many headbands of intellect that we joked about having a 50' knotted rope of intellect.
The treasure experience in a homebrew campaign does tend to be very different.
Our game is homebrew.
Our game is homebrew.
Thanks, and noted.
This rule is especially aimed at AP GMs, I wanted to make it trivial to keep statblocks while reducing looting.
I would like some options for homebrewed games since the origunal character was lacking magic items cause he hated it.
That's superb Evil Lincoln. Since I started to GM I began to see the vulgarity of "Ok, I start to loot their bodies using Detect Magic. Any magic item I put in my bag". As a player I was used to it, put thinking about, I just wanted to remain effective (always rolled support undereffective characters in the middle of a bunch of power gamers). Was looking for something like it, take necessity and let the awesome in the magic items. I saw Kirth Gersen rules and was tempted to use the Ability Increase feats, but it would take resources from the players. As you said, Ashiel's rules are nice, but they seemed a little too high on the power side. Your rules are fine, but I have some questions:
- There's still normal level ability increase? (may or may not be relevant, but we use one ability point buy per level instead the normal increase)
- If yes, I would like to differentiate them. Maybe like Kirth Gersen feats, some required time training them or the bonus disapear. At least to make the players note that it isn't a granted boon, and as a way to take it from them if needed (long term incarceration, or retirement). What do you think?
Sorry for the english...
- There's still normal level ability increase? (may or may not be relevant, but we use one ability point buy per level instead the normal increase)
Yes, I would still include the normal increase every 4 levels. The goal here is to match what the players would get from those items, and they would have their 1/4 level normal increase plus a headband and belt of whatever. That's why the ability score is split into physical and mental — to simulate the old headband and belt combo that Pathfinder introduced.
You could try to simulate this with an ongoing point buy system, or just incorporate the increases directly into the level-advancement table. I didn't, because I am lazy. Also, I think this cleaves a little closer to the bonuses given by items in your typical loot-heavy Adventure Path.
- If yes, I would like to differentiate them. Maybe like Kirth Gersen feats, some required time training them or the bonus disapear. At least to make the players note that it isn't a granted boon, and as a way to take it from them if needed (long term incarceration, or retirement). What do you think?
Sounds fun to me, but I wouldn't bother with that in my version. I'm accepting that the players were entitled to this stuff in the RAW, so they still get it here. The only difference is instead of a headband, belt, sword, and cape (plus optional armor and shield), they just improve in personal power. Of all the mean tricks I've played as a GM, robbing PCs of their "passive" gear isn't one of them. I'll steal or confiscate items, but usually only the flashy stuff.
Basically, they had these bonuses coming in the RAW, why make them work harder for them now?
Fair enough... one more question: how it would interact with a antimagic field (and to a lesser extent, dispel magic)?
Fair enough... one more question: how it would interact with a antimagic field (and to a lesser extent, dispel magic)?
Well, if you wanted to keep it on par with items, you'd lose them in antimagic. But... I think most players don't really think to recalculate their entire sheet in an antimagic field.
If I ruled that antimagic suppresses these bonuses, I'd say that being "heroic" in this manner is actually somewhat magical, and the field suppresses that.
But knowing me, I'd just as soon let them keep the stats. It's not like shaving off the weapon enhancement bonuses is the primary use of antimagic field. It's a damn powerful spell because it stops spells, so I'd have to stop and look at the party and decide whether or not stopping spells was enough, or does it need to do more.
how it would interact with a antimagic field(...) most players don't really think to recalculate their entire sheet in an antimagic field (anyways).
It's not a problem, it's a feature!
EL, this stuff looks incredibly nice. I've not really ever looked into the numbers spread too much because I frankly don't have time to do so with other requirements along life's road (one of the reasons my group has gone to PF from 2E--the former give me phenomenal written campaigns that I can simply add to as I will, while the latter I had to create all the campaigns myself). I was wondering if you might answer a couple questions for me on this stuff though, because I'm actually considering following through with enacting this in my games . . .
1) How does the +2 ability per 3 levels to max of +6 actually rate against the levels PCs accrue the actual magic items? To clarify: how often do PCs actually gain Headbands of Intellect +6 by 9th level, or would they typically only have a +2/+4 by then? I ask about this because that influence of an additional +1/+2 to stats at an earlier level could help to unhinge the AP around that book 3/4 area, though admittedly that might not make a difference as it progresses beyond that point.
2) Does taking away all those +1 long swords at all hinder the enemy, or do you simply take the magic away but keep the same bonuses as written, with the assumption that the NPC stats would accumulate to include them anyway? Example: An 8th level NPC fighter's melee line might read +2 heavy flail +17 (1d10+11/19-20). If I took the magical flail away, his "to hit" would become +15, making it more difficult for him to be effective in combat against PCs who still have their equivalent bonuses without their magic. Would this NPC fighter maintain his +17 to hit without the magical flail simply because he also is expected to acquire the +2 ability point per 3 levels, as well?
Appreciate this quick write-up you've done! Good stuff, man!
I think this needs to be staggered with the players making the choice to primary vs secondary in regards to physical vs mental, with the secondary being +2 every 6 levels. Level 3 wizards with Headbands of intellect +2 are not unheard of but its a high magic item campaign that has that same wizard ALSO with a belt that grants them a +2 Con.
That said, I don't play a lot of level 10+ games and don't really have a feel for it. Looking at Villain stat blocks in APs show that they do have the good stuff for their primaries, they don't really have same goodies for their secondaries.
Thanks for the compliments, Helaman.
I'm taking a closer look at the stat boosts now, because so many have mentioned it. But, in my recent experience, although NPCs are kitted with one or the other (headband or belt), players tend to end up with both as they pluck them idly from the mound of BBEG corpses.
But, as I said, I'll take a closer look now, and see whether they're over.
I was thinking of working something like this out myself.
It looks good, but I'm concerned by the way many bonuses arrive in groups, rather than being spread smoothly across the levels.
Should some of the progressions not be advanced or delayed a level or two?
I would like to see some kind of option where players could pick Physical or Mental as "Primary" and "Secondary" and have staggered advancement based on that. Maybe you get a bonus to your Physical scores every 3, and a bonus to your Secondary scores only every 5, or something to that general gist.
I'm considering this. I don't think you need all that much to survive the AP scenarios...
I kind of like the way the ability scores spread currently. It is a major boon to multiple-ability dependent classes (which need a little help) and doesn't really add much but flavor to the other classes.
Then again, it seems to bother a lot of people in this thread, so I won't discount that out of hand.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I think a way to blend these ideas with another change is to:
Grant a +1 stat mod every even-numbered level, which meshes well with the feats every odd level. Feat, stat, feat, stat feat, etc.
Alternatively, you could grant feats *every* level and make a stat mod feat that can be taken only at even levels. That way people COULD focus on upping their stats, but people who want to load up on actual feats could do that instead.
Hard to tell if this has already been said, but there should be an equivalent choice to split up ability score boosts. Generally, you can get a little more bang for your buck boosting 2-3 ability scores a little then boosting 1 a lot, and this should be reflected in an option. Would help out the MAD classes a bit.
E.g. you could focus all of your ability score boosts into strength, or dilute them into strength and dexterity and get the same overall cost efficiency as if you weren't using the system
I've been looking for a way to do this myself, but it's difficult to find proven systems for doing this (read: I'm too lazy to actively search for this). So I'll be paying attention to this thread for sure.
Evil Lincoln, I have some questions on how this is to be implemented: when you look at an NPC and see things like cloaks of resistance, headbands of intellect, and so on, do you simply remove the items, and assume the bonuses they confer are inherent to the wearer, leaving the stat block the same? Do you replace said boring items with new ones, or simply cut them out entirely?
I'm one session into running Rise of the Runelords, and I've already wanted to cut out the staple items (having read through it a little), but hearing about a 50' knotted rope of intellect only encourages me to hasten trying to tweak the system a little.
Actually, now that I've asked those questions, I think I've gotten an idea for a simpler method of removing the staple items, inspired by this thread, and the fact I want a replacement system to use build points (or a perk/talent tree type setup). Let's say I look at enemies with staple items, like in Evil Lincoln's system. Now, let's remove the items, calculate their total value, and note that figure for later. When that enemy is defeated, the party gains points equal to some constant (say, somewhere between 0.5 and 0.75) times that noted value, distributed evenly, like XP. Upon level-up, or after significant events, the party can spend those points like gold for staple magic items and magic weapon enhancement bonuses, except the "magic items" are simple inherent bonuses. The foe that was defeated does not need to be recalculated, since they spent their "points" on those bonuses.
What does everyone think of that? Here are what I think the possible advantages are:
1. Almost identical to the base system.
2. This provides a lot of flexibility to the players; a demiplane full of wizards can still benefit the warriors of the group.
3. No recalculating enemies. It would be better to, since, why does enemy X grant points, and enemy Y doesn't? But this is not a big deal.
And the disadvantages:
1. It adds a new currency type, essentially. All those headbands of intelligence could potentially have gone to buying interesting magic items in town, but instead, they are reincarnated as simple, bland, numerical bonuses. And there will no doubt be an abundance of wealth, and a large number of bonuses. I might as well have left those headbands in.
Well, that was one disadvantage, but a big one. Any ideas for avoiding that? I guess the best way is to temper this with a little extra diligence, and looking at certain characters, and remove the staple items and the bonuses they provide, and replace those items with other interesting magic items, which could make the battle itself more interesting.
@Staz:
I think the point is this system doesn't get rid of magic items, so much as it makes other properties more important. You don't buy a +1 shovel: you buy a flaming shovel for an equivalent price. If anything, it puts more focus on the remaining magical qualities and makes magic items all the more interesting and unique.
I think I would want to stagger some of the every 3/4/5 level bonuses, so there aren't those big bumps at those levels. E.g., +1 to armor or shield at level 3, increasing by one every 4 levels thereafter, with the bonus to the other starting at level 4. That way the boosts are a little more spread out.
I'd also start the ability boosts later - generally, no one has a 4k +2 ability item at 3rd level, IME. At 3rd, they usually are still working their way to that first real BBEG, who will. Have that first headband/belt. So, start them at 5th level, maybe, then every 3 levels or so. Though everyone will probably pump their prime stat first, and a +6 by 9th or 11th seems fast. Maybe treat it like a favored enemy? +2 at 5th, then at 9th that goes to +4 and you get +2 to another stat?
I do hope Ultimate Campaign has some concrete Xmas tree reduction and low(er) magic item options.
@Trayce
Well, it's not like I'd be getting rid of all the magic items, just headbands, belts, amulets of natural armor, and cloaks of resistance, pretty much. If there is an enemy with only such items, I can remove all those items, replace some with something more fun (and in such a case, compensate for the stats accordingly), and convert the rest into the points I was talking about. On a less extreme enemy, I can do the same thing, but just with less work. It's not that much different from the original proposal in the OP, I think (edit: that is, unless I am misreading something, of course), just in how it's administered.
Edit: regarding the shovel, I don't know anything of the True20 purchase DC system, so I was just ignoring that aspect completely. I can try to infer what it does through context, but I figure it's not that important. But, if characters have built-in enhancements, it does seem like a good idea to remove the +1 requirement from arms and armor, or at least exclude it from price when considering WBL. My player who's playing a fighter would probably really like being able to buy a built-in enhancement bonus (which is only different in my idea in that he has to buy the bonus, whereas it's automatic in EL's), so that miscellaneous weapons with cool properties remain valid, longer.
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I had a thought. Why do these threads always focus on pumping up the PC? Why not nerf the monsters instead. Then you can have a completely normal run through an AP just with low or no magic and everything would stay balanced as intended. As a GM I do this anyway but you could codify those changes above but instead treat them as built in penalties to monsters based on CR.
Two quick answers:
Stazamos: Yes, I leave that statblock alone and just assume that the gear they carry is reflected in the auto bonus rule. Not super precise, but I am lazy.
Aranna: The I don't just nerf the enemies is because that requires me to rewrite statblocks and makes calculating CR tricky. And I am lazy.
I would answer more questions now, but I am lazy, so it has to wait!
When reading one of EL houserules, I generally assume that the experience/perception of the game will change but the mechanics/statistics wont. The burden of change is thus on the player side since characters are probably the most elastic element of the whole game.
Seeing where Evil Lincoln comes from - someone who plays published AP and expects to be using the info it contains - his rules usually tend to leave published material remarkably intact.
My issue with automatic bonuses to the Big 6 are that they place too much importance with such items. I don't doubt for a second that the vast majority of groups that play don't all have the Big 6 on all their characters. Or even 2/3rds of the Big Six on 2/3rds of their characters. That's partially why I love Kolokotroni's Solution to the Xmas Tree Effect. It doesn't just strap on the Big 6 bonuses, but gives a choice. Even with the lower values of EL's, in the end they're still all getting them.
Much has been made about how the game assumes the Big Six (although it might be time to revisit that...). Not very much is brought up to clarify that a game with 15 point buy or the elite array is the one that assumes that.
Of course, houserules tailored to your group will work well and general arguments against them can probably be ignored :P
Instead of a price hike for combining multiple functions in one item, why not a price discount? So then, instead of having a +1 sword and a belt of +2 Dex and Con and a ring of protection +1, you just have a +1 sword that also provides +2 to Str and Con and +1 protection. "Well, of COURSE it makes the wielder stronger, and able to fight longer, and better able to parry blows... it's a MAGIC sword, isn't it?"
Instead of handing out a headband of intellect +2, just declare that Willie the Wizard has realized, after all this time with his bonded staff, that it actually helps him store memories, and tack that +2 Int onto the staff's properties.
It would be a lot like what I do, except (a) with a lot less bookkeeping; and (b) with a lot more DM control, vs. player control, on what their favorite items actually do (this is handy for groups in which one person makes his sword as described above, and his brother takes the same magic item allotment value and comes up with a sword that can sing "Rigoletto" in six different languages but has no other abilities...).
Aranna: The I don't just nerf the enemies is because that requires me to rewrite statblocks and makes calculating CR tricky. And I am lazy.
Rewrite stat blocks? It can be as easy as applying a -1 to all rolls, AC, and actions per every 4 CR the creature possesses.
Just trying to be helpful.
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Evil Lincoln: I was thinking of something similar, but with minor changes
Instead of getting everything at 4th level, allowing the character to choose an upgrade every level, but having 5 options. You can choose any of the 5 options once in each group of 4 levels (1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17-20) The options are:
Type...................................................Bonus
Melee Attacks and Damage ........+1 enhancement bonus (max +5)
Ranged Attacks and Damage .....+1 enhancement bonus (max +5)
Saving Throws.............................+1 enhancement bonus (max +5)
Armor...........................................if equipped, +1 enhancement bonus (max +5)
Shield...........................................if equipped, +1 enhancement bonus (max +5)
For ability adjustments thinking of adding a +1 boost to every even level so it would be +1 at 2nd, +2 at 4th, +1 at 6th, +2 at 8th, etc. I would limit to +6 total and you cannot boost the same stat twice in a row. (thus limiting a +6 to one stat until at least 12th)
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Personally, I want to keep it PC focused, but I want everything to be expressed as simply as possible. I would consider it a great thing if all of these benefits could be added to the Table: Character Advancement and Level Dependent Bonuses and involved no choice outside the scope of what that table allows (mainly, ability score increase).
To that end, Jason's suggestion of one ability score point at every even level is very appealing.
For those who prefer a little choice, I suggest you check out the heroic distinctions approach mentioned upthread, it's a great rule.
Aranna: something like a fast template? I do that stuff all the time. It's like I mentioned in the OP, the best thing to do is just control access and adjust challenges via trial and error... that should be the default "house rule" approach of all GMs! But, in this case, I want a system that lets me keep pace with the Items in Adventure Paths, not have to rewrite statblocks (at all) and something that works with my abstract wealth house rules. Pretty dang specific, I know. I'm amazed at the number of responses so far!
Needs a bit more work, I think. Stay tuned, but don't expect speedy updates as I like to play through things before I change them.
Actually, now that I've asked those questions, I think I've gotten an idea for a simpler method of removing the staple items, inspired by this thread, and the fact I want a replacement system to use build points (or a perk/talent tree type setup). Let's say I look at enemies with staple items, like in Evil Lincoln's system. Now, let's remove the items, calculate their total value, and note that figure for later. When that enemy is defeated, the party gains points equal to some constant (say, somewhere between 0.5 and 0.75) times that noted value, distributed evenly, like XP. Upon level-up, or after significant events, the party can spend those points like gold for staple magic items and magic weapon enhancement bonuses, except the "magic items" are simple inherent bonuses. The foe that was defeated does not need to be recalculated, since they spent their "points" on those bonuses.
I started with something very similar to this, and it is a cool idea! But I also hate calculating gold prices. I am concurrently testing an abstract wealth system, I'll post the results in the homebrew forums after I've had a chance to smoke-test it.
Ok ok I know when a guy has his ...what is a good word for it? You know that totally involved way they get when they have that ... vision of what they want to do? I will be following the thread to see what you create here in... hmmm... creative mode?
But I also hate calculating gold prices.
Eh, I don't mind calculating gold prices. I was a player in the campaign we just finished, and I was basically the party's loot tracker for a whole year, got used to it! So, I have a differently painted perspective on this...
My party will soon be getting their second magic item (and beyond), so I may be able to try my idea out, after I run it by my players. Just got to ponder it more, and nail it down before this weekend! I'm really hoping that since this approach heavily leans on the WBL system, it's as least as effective (yes, I know how ridiculous that might sound) as it is, and won't cause a collapse, given the system's assumptions on gearing. I'll just need to be wary of the "two currencies" problem, and the potential disaster that can cause.
I am looking forward to your smoke test!
One other thing to consider would be characters who don't use certain items. Like a monk. No armor or shield, and maybe no weapon (though I'm sure they'd love the enchantment bonus on attack/damage to work anyway). Obviously, a monk wouldn't be spending money on those things, and so would have more to spend elsewhere. Or a spellcaster who can't have armor or a shield and may not use a weapon at all.
On the other hand, a Paladin is going to need a weapon, armor, a shield, strength, charisma, and will probably want the saving throws even if they don't really need them.
Well, monks really could use a boost anyway, so no harm there.
Since the bonus to armor and shields only applies when the armor is worn, if the wizard decides to strap on some armor, then he should be entitled to the level boost. Same with the monk. Both (potentially) sacrifice class features for that, so let them do it.
I do really like the idea of a stat boost every other level, but no boosting the same stat twice in a row, max of +6 to any stat. It does limit you to a total of +10 over the course of 20 levels, which might be less than some are used (several of my 19th level players have +6/+6 belts and a +4 headband), but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
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I think it would be worth it to reduce the bonuses across the board. The idea would be to make characters enjoy the benefits of automatic increases to make them independent, but still leave room for characters that really specialize in them. Something like:
Automatic Bonuses by Level
The following bonuses are acquired automatically at the listed levels. Magic items that normally confer these bonuses no longer do so, but all other benefits remain. The Purchase DC* for items with both an enhancement bonus and an effect (e.g. a flaming sword must also be a +1 sword) remains the same as if it had the enhancement bonus.Note that the automatic enhancement bonus to attacks does not qualify as magic for the purposes of damage reduction. A weapon needs to possess at least one magical quality (e.g. a returning dagger) to bypass damage reduction of the magic type.
Type................................Automatic Bonus
Attacks and Damage .........+1 enhancement bonus per 6 levels, starting at level 4 (max +3)
Saving Throws...................+1 enhancement bonus per 6 levels, starting at level 2 (max +3)
Armor...............................if equipped, +1 enhancement bonus per 6 levels, starting at level 2 (max +3)
Shield...............................if equipped, +1 enhancement bonus per 6 levels, starting at level 3 (max +3)
Ability Scores....................+2 to any one per 3 levels (max +4)The dragonscale amulet (natural armor bonus) and ring of protection (deflection bonus) exist in lesser (+2, minor item) and greater (+4, medium item) varieties. Both create visible effects and are activated by a command word as a standard action, whereupon they remain active for the sortie**.
I think this is enough to make the choice of pursuing a purely stat-driven character or one that is interested in strange items compelling. The original form proposed is too one-sided, and that eliminates player choice completely.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If a party of orcs has 2000 gps, they bought their squad leader a +1 longsword. All coins can be converted to useful magic items.
I like the basic idea mostly because I dislike the flavor of the PCs lugging around bags of +1 swords, shields, and armor so they can get back to town and sell them.
Personally I think I favor a point based system that has more options in it to allow for more customized characters.
I like the basic idea mostly because I dislike the flavor of the PCs lugging around bags of +1 swords, shields, and armor so they can get back to town and sell them.
Personally I think I favor a point based system that has more options in it to allow for more customized characters.
This is obviously a very popular sentiment! Allow me to enthusiastically link to rule which does precisely what you are asking for. It's solid work.
Meanwhile, in this thread I am peddling less choice. That's right! It's mainly because my players don't have much stomach for more house rules, so the more "automatic" the rule, the less they have to read and learn, the less they complain. Stupid players. Also, it's easier to balance the automatic bonuses, because no choice means no abuse. You get what's expected for the challenges you face, end of story.
I can't be the only one who is treading on eggshells with respect to rulesmonkeying in ongoing campaigns, so I hope the Auto-bonus rule from this thread can be a sort of "lite" version for people who have obstacles to adopting Kolo's fix. It is basically the fix that Ashiel suggested in that thread as an alternative (Where are you, anyway, Ash? Weigh in!)
There's nothing wrong with more choice, it's just that I have certain goals: a light footprint on the rules, a minimal level of added complexity, and the ability to use AP material with zero effort. Unless you share that (very narrow) list of criteria, you can and should look to Kolo's rule since it is probably exactly what you want!
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After pulling this apart a bit, I have decided to change the ability score bonuses to:
+1 physical/+1 mental at every even level.
This is in addition to the +1 to any ability score at 4th level.
The earlier system allowed a "jump" from a 17 to a 20, which is two whole bonus points, at 4th, 8th, etc. While that's not exactly way out of line with the belt/headband status quo, I find it personally distasteful. The bonus occurring at even levels is much more gradual.
I understand that many people think that the split mental/physical bonus is out of proportion with items, but in my experience enough found headbands and belts ended up being worn by the entire party... and I personally like how well-rounded it forces characters to become. Without the split, you know all the points would just go to the primary ability, and that's not exactly how the belt/headband method plays out either. In this case, I'm calling it a feature, not a bug.
Thanks for the suggestions all, report back if you try this system out. I will!
The following bonuses are acquired automatically at the listed levels. Magic items that normally confer these bonuses no longer do so, but all other benefits remain. The Purchase DC for items with both an enhancement bonus and an effect (e.g. a flaming sword must also be a +1 sword) remains the same as if it had the enhancement bonus.
Note that the automatic enhancement bonus to attacks does not qualify as magic for the
purposes of damage reduction. A weapon needs to possess at least one magical quality (e.g. a returning dagger) to bypass damage reduction of the magic type.The armor bonus from mage armor does not benefit from the auto-bonus as armor does.
Ability score bonuses are in addition to the normal +1 point per 4 levels.Type................................Automatic Bonus
Attacks and Damage .........+1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Saving Throws...................+1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Armor...............................if equipped, +1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Shield...............................if equipped, +1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Physical Ability Scores.......+1 to any one per 2 levels (max +6 per ability)
Mental Ability Scores ........+1 to any one per 2 levels (max +6 per ability)The dragonscale amulet (natural armor bonus) and ring of protection (deflection bonus) exist in lesser (+2, minor item) and greater (+4, medium item) varieties. Both create visible effects and are activated by a command word as a standard action.
I like the new version better.
Some questions.
If a players has a +1 sword does the bonuses from levels stack with that bonus? Does a 8th level character with a +1 weapon bypass DR silver/cold iron?
Does the bonus to ability scores stack with enhancement bonus from items or is your plan to remove all magic items that boosts ability scores?
My thought is that some characters may want/need to focus on more than one mental stat. Clerics that focus on spells and channeling need both charisma and wisdom so when I DM I'd like a way to help any players that don't want to play a Codzilla Cleric. (I actually plan to do a minor rewrite of the cleric, Channel energy and the heal skill). I would also like to help any players that needs to boost charisma or wisdom and wants more int. A sorcerer that wants to boost char and have more skill points or a fighter that wants better will saves and more skill.
Thanks for a great thread
I like the new version better.
Some questions.
If a players has a +1 sword does the bonuses from levels stack with that bonus? Does a 8th level character with a +1 weapon bypass DR silver/cold iron?Does the bonus to ability scores stack with enhancement bonus from items or is your plan to remove all magic items that boosts ability scores?
No such thing as a +1 sword in this variant. Likewise for ability enhancers.
If there's a +1 longsword in the loot of some module you're running, it gets downgraded to a fancy sword. Magic headband becomes a headband of preventing sweat in your eyes.
If there's a +1 flaming sword in the module, it becomes merely a flaming sword.
I do not concern myself with modifying the attack rolls of NPCs to match their auto-bonus by level instead of the gear they've got. The numbers on the page are balanced for characters of the correct level. The auto-bonus variant is really about making sure things are balanced on the player end without the big 6.
In playtesting I have found no compelling reason to deny the AC enhancement to characters wearing no armor. In fact, some people would probably really like the idea of characters getting better defenses from experience.
I always referred to the Christmas Tree effect as stacking buffs that might all disappear to a Dispel Magic.
I'm always interested in changes that make magic gear cool, not just +2. So you eliminate the need for +2 shovels, how is magic gear that's cool changed in pricing and such? Or did I miss that section.
I see two options:
1) Charge the full price for the least bonus necessary in the RAW.
2) Only charge for the effects, and don't charge for enhancement bonus that isn't used.
The first is probably less of a balance issue, because effects are tracked to WBL for their minimum bonuses.
It hasn't come up in either of my campaigns using this rule. One campaign is too low level to afford this stuff, and the other campaign uses my weird abstract wealth rule.