| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Spirit Sense (Sp): At 1st level, a menhir savant can detect the presence of undead; fey; outsiders; and astral, ethereal, or incorporeal creatures. This ability functions like detect undead, and the druid detects all of these creatures rather than trying to detect one kind.
Can a menhir savant determine what types of creatures this ability might pick up? As written, it doesn't seem that way, since the detect undead spell doesn't have this functionality, but that spell also wasn't written to allow for the detection of creatures other than undead ones. It seems to me that a menhir savant ought to be able to determine what creatures he/she is picking up on with this ability- undead, fey, outsider, etc- but that doesn't seem to be how it's written, which is a shame because I feel that it takes away from the usefulness of the ability. Has this particular functionality of the ability been clarified anywhere?
Thanks in advance.
I don't know if it's clarified anywhere but my DM allowed me to identify general creature type when using the ability. So you can always house-rule it one way or the other.
Since it's non-selective and specifically calls out detecting all creatures of that kind, RAW seems to just make it a boolean search. "Are there any undead, fey, outsiders, astral, ethereal or incorporeal creatures in the area?" "Yes." That seems to be what you get, then it notifies you of locations and relative hit dice.
An argument might be made that detecting the "auras" of these creatures would tell you their type, much like detecting magical auras tell you the spell school. If someone at my table were to make this argument, I'd probably give in, and allow them to know what type of creatures are present in rounds 2 and 3.
It replaces two relatively weak abilities. Using diplomacy on animals isn't fantastically useful in most campaigns since it takes a full minute (or more) so it's useless in combat and can be done with diplomacy or handle animal anyway. Nature sense is a pair of +2s to two thematic (and somewhat useful) skills. All in all, I think the boolean result is a fair trade for these two things, especially since many of those creatures are or can be invisible and the druid can't see invisible creatures with her own abilities until level 13 when she can gain True Seeing.
An argument might be made that detecting the "auras" of these creatures would tell you their type, much like detecting magical auras tell you the spell school. If someone at my table were to make this argument, I'd probably give in, and allow them to know what type of creatures are present in rounds 2 and 3.
That's more or less my thinking as well, that if you can get the auras of the creatures, you should also be able to learn their type, by my DM didn't allow it, thus my question.
I disagree that the abilities given up to gain Spirit Sense are weak. So what if wild empathy can't be used in combat? Diplomacy doesn't work on animals, and Handle Animal won't help you improve the attitude of an animal. If an animal is hostile, I think it would be very difficult to use this skill to get an animal to do anything. People don't give this ability enough credit. I'm playing a menhir savant, and giving up Wild Empathy kinda hurt. Plus, the +2 on Knowledge (Nature) and Survival is pretty useful across the board.
Basically, though, I'm looking for some sort of official or quasi-official clarification on this ability, and whether or not the type of creatures can be determined. It just doesn't seem terribly clear to me as-written, and I haven't been able to find a ruling either way, other than people suggesting their own house rules.
It seems pretty clear cut that the ability doesn't tell you about creature type, it's only 'detection',
and it also says: "the druid detects all of these creatures rather than trying to detect one kind. ",
on top of Detect Undead obviously not having any type discrimination as you mention.
So there's absolutely no basis to claim otherwise based on RAW,
nor do I see ANY evidence to even suggest there is some 'intent' otherwise,
even if you think that allowing it makes the ability more 'useful' (powerful),
the ability is very niceful as-is, there' nothing 'broken' about it.
Honestly, I'm just in a twist whether or not to go ahead with a Mwangi Menhir Savant, or use the new Ngaamba Arcanist PrC with Sorceror instead (which would miss out on this ability).
Honestly, unless a player made a big huff about it, I'd stick with my original statement (which mirrors Quandary's) about it just being a blanket yes or no if any of those creature types are in the area. I don't think it's brokenly powerful to allow you to know the creature type by the aura, but it is more powerful and I prefer a more conservative reading of the rules. However, more than that, I prefer table cohesion and fun; hence my comment about giving in if that argument was made by a player.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi there,
I wrote the menhir savant, and while I do not issue official errata for the purpose of PFS or other RAW-specific games, I can tell you that the authorial intention was that it be a yes/no detection, as detect undead is for undead.
I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to let it give you type after 3 rounds of concentration, so I think it's fair to ask your GM if he or she will stretch the rules a bit and allow it, but it's also fair for them to say "nope."
Hope this helps!
Hi there,
I wrote the menhir savant, and while I do not issue official errata for the purpose of PFS or other RAW-specific games, I can tell you that the authorial intention was that it be a yes/no detection, as detect undead is for undead.
I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to let it give you type after 3 rounds of concentration, so I think it's fair to ask your GM if he or she will stretch the rules a bit and allow it, but it's also fair for them to say "nope."
Hope this helps!
If you intention was to make it a simple yes/no detection, then I'll work with that. Thanks for responding. :)
Hi there,
I wrote the menhir savant, and while I do not issue official errata for the purpose of PFS or other RAW-specific games, I can tell you that the authorial intention was that it be a yes/no detection, as detect undead is for undead.
I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to let it give you type after 3 rounds of concentration, so I think it's fair to ask your GM if he or she will stretch the rules a bit and allow it, but it's also fair for them to say "nope."
Hope this helps!
Interesting - Yes I too ran into this problem and I agree -I personally also viewed it as a boolean outcome when the character was at first level, but only because I failed to take the relevent Knowledge checks.
But we decided that if I augment Spirit Sense with skill ranks in:
Knowledge Nature - Identify Animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin (DC 10+CR)
Knowledge Planes - Identify Outsiders (DC 10+CR)
Knowledge Religion - Identify Undead (DC 10+CR)
It could be argued that the aura (or mix of auras) is immediately identifiable (round 1) but ONLY if you have ranks in the relevent Knowledge(s).
This is a much heavier investment in this ability and I think
from then on you need the standard Knowlege roll (as above) combined with ue of the spell for subsequent rounds to correctly identify the other components of the aura and the specific creature.
I don't think it would even be necessary to 'physically see' the target, because you can 'sense the aura', even through obstructions such as lead.
Any thoughts?