Where did my thread go?


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Seriously, did you guys hide the entire thread Lack of Monk Gear in UE? It just up and vanished. It is not locked, it has not been deleted (as far as I can tell), and I can still get in through my posts and thread portion of my profile, but is the whole thing now hidden?

What is going on here?

Master Arminas


Maybe you hit the hide button.

Contributor

Here you go.

Thanks for giving me extra stuff to deal with on the last weekend before GenCon.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Here you go.

Thanks for giving me extra stuff to deal with on the last weekend before GenCon.

And the follow-up posts you removed, they will be restored on Monday, yes? Is that when the thread will reopen?

MA


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Can't you just drop it for a while?


Seems like a valid concern to me, so why should he have to drop it? Man just wants to know what has happened to his thread.


So it's Monday morning. And the thread isn't locked unlocked . . . why? The weekend is over.

EDIT: That sounded confrontational, which was not my intention. Since Sean said he was locking my original thread for the weekend (actually asking Ross or someone else to lock the thread until the staff could return to work on Monday morning, today), and the weekend has now been concluded, does anyone have an idea of when my thread will be unlocked?

I think that is better.

Master Arminas

Scarab Sages

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Isn't it like half 7 in the morning at Paizo HQ? Cut them some slack they have to sleep just like the rest of us, especially given how they stated they wanted to "enjoy their last weekend before GenCon".


Don't be silly. The designers are supposed to spend all of their time attending to our every quibble on the boards; they can't be allowed to have any time to themselves.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Aren't they at Gen Con?


princeimrahil wrote:
Don't be silly. The designers are supposed to spend all of their time attending to our every quibble on the boards; they can't be allowed to have any time to themselves.

Hey, he's the one who said he was having the thread locked for the weekend. The weekend is now over. And it is still locked. So what is up?

MA


Kryzbyn wrote:
Aren't they at Gen Con?

Along with all the moderators? You mean there is literally no one in the Paizo office this week?

Master Arminas


Moving this thread to Website Feedback.

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

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Looks to me like that thread was turning into yet another "here's everything that's wrong with the monk and why isn't Paizo fixing it nooowwwwww" thread instead of talking about, I dunno, monk gear in Ultimate Equipment. I think we've had enough of those threads, and far too many threads that weren't originally about that end up turning into that, so I get Sean's frustration with the topic. I'm not particularly inclined to unlock it at this point.


Well, I am disappointed, but thank you for the answer, Gary Teter. A quick question though: why not let people just discuss it, if that is what is on their minds? I don't think it was getting all that heated, certainly not in comparison to many threads I have seen that reach more than a thousand posts. I am not questioning your authority to do so, but what is wrong with letting the folks (your customer base) discuss and debate the facets of the game that they fell need some . . . adjustments?

MA


I was really confused by this, too. Was the thread in the wrong section? If so, why not just move it? I know a few posts were over the line, but they were removed. Why does the whole thread have to be shut down? There was an earnest and insightful debate/discussion going on.

A lot of fuss was made that it was right before Gen-Con... why is this of note? Because there are less moderators to remove abusive posts? It was supposedly shut down because it MIGHT "explode" before Monday. Not because anything HAD happened.

Scarab Sages

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master arminas wrote:
why not let people just discuss it, if that is what is on their minds? MA

Create a single topic for the "oh sh*t, the monk is really rubbish" posts? I think the monk is absolutely terrible but I am bored beyond belief with the number of threads devoted to it. It's the plethora of threads that are functionally identical in tone and message that get me.


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I think it had got abusive, personally. I try not to express that by joining in though, but rather by flagging posts. Maybe lots of others did the same.


master arminas wrote:
Well, I am disappointed, but thank you for the answer, Gary Teter. A quick question though: why not let people just discuss it, if that is what is on their minds?

Because there are already nine or ten such threads, one more is unnecessary?


As a former website moderator myself, I can certainly see where Paizo is coming from on this. I've seen many a thread that spiralled into an existence where it either had to be permanently locked, or one moderator would basically have to devote their entire day to removing post after post after post (which is far from an efficient use of a person's time). And it's certainly possible to see if a thread is about to venture into that kind of territory.


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+1 to what Are said...

In addition, until you've been on the other side of it, it's hard to comprehend how much exposure to negativity will completely ruin creative efforts. Even what people think of as "constructive criticism" after awhile can be really burdensome to those involved in the creative processes.

Paizo is insanely good at keeping their finger on the pulse of what their customers are discussing, but the double edge of that is that they are constantly exposed to the negativity as well as the positive and that can be incredibly draining.

-TimD


See, I believe that negativity is a positive. You need to know what others really think about you are doing in order to be able to progress and become better. You don't just get that with positive comments; negative reinforcement has worked for generations . . . it may not be politically correct in today's world, but it is effective. For myself, I don't like people to sugar-coat things; if I screw up, tell me I screwed up. Be blunt! Don't worry about my feelings, but let me know what I need to know. Being read the riot act won't end my life; I'm a big boy and can take the heat if I put myself outthere to be judged.

That's why I can't stand the soccer 'games' at my nephews and neices elementary school. Winning doesn't matter? Keeping score doesn't matter? Wrong. In real life it does matter, and people need to learn to deal with the negative as well as the positive without becoming depressed and jumping off a local bridge.

Sigh. I know it is a different world these days, but if you don't want to read another thread on monks, no one is holding a gun to head making you read it. There is an option to hide it! Click and move on!

EDIT: Oh, and Ares? Two, I think TWO posts were removed from a thread with 400+. And Ross changed the title to make it less fighty. Not exactly up there with some of them I've seen.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. Ya'll have a nice night, now.

MA


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master arminas wrote:
For myself, I don't like people to sugar-coat things; if I screw up, tell me I screwed up. Be blunt! Don't worry about my feelings, but let me know what I need to know. Being read the riot act won't end my life; I'm a big boy and can take the heat if I put myself outthere to be judged.

OK - in my opinion, you're not qualified to tell the designers of one of the best selling RPGs ever that they deserve to lose their jobs. Plus it's a nasty and personal way of saying you disagree with something they've done.

.
Focus on feedback regarding the mechanics rather than punishments you'd mete out if you were in charge. Avoid passing judgements as to people's competence for creating some game concept/mechanic/explanation you personally dont like - quality of game design is hardly an objective thing.


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master arminas wrote:
For myself, I don't like people to sugar-coat things; if I screw up, tell me I screwed up. Be blunt! Don't worry about my feelings, but let me know what I need to know. Being read the riot act won't end my life; I'm a big boy and can take the heat if I put myself outthere to be judged.

You're obsessive over this issue and your constant pushing of it has begun irritating the nerves of readers and staff alike if observations of topics like this are any indication.

And as for hiding them, I have. All of them. And I have to stop by every two to three days because a brand new one ranting about the exact same subject has popped up in the topics bar.

Better? =)


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MA, there's a difference between providing honest feedback and being a jerk about it; it is possible to identify flaws/weaknesses without setting a disrespectful tone or beating a dead horse. You might also consider that, if you get on people's nerves, they are actually LESS likely to respond to you in a favorable manner; as the saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey."

And with regard to winning/losing: Winning a pee-wee soccer game actually DOESN'T matter in "real life." Learning respect and good sportsmanship DO matter, however. Getting a "fixed Monk" DOESN'T matter in "real life" (because, like pee wee soccer, it's just a game people engage in for recreation). Maintaining forums that have high standards of respect and courtesy DOES matter, though.

You've made what, SIX different versions of the monk class? Just go ahead and make a houserule and use your homebrew stuff; you don't need the imprimatur of an official book. Heck, the devs even TOLD you as much.

You come across as a rude, obsessive player (which is a shame, because you clearly know the material extremely well and are capable of contributing a lot to the hobby). You need to take a step back and realize that you're going to have to get over how awesome you think your first D&D character was.

In short: you're screwing up. You're screwing up bad. You're creating a hostile and antagonistic environment that poisons the relationship between the designers and the players. You make them defensive and irritated; you make them less likely to respond to our queries about rules clarifications; you literally make them not want to participate in conversations that you're part of.

And I can't say I'm surprised - not when you make childish, taunting posts that do nothing to extend reasoned discussion and certainly not when you act as though the designers' first priority Monday morning should be attending to your personal soapbox threads.

I remember when I first start lurking the boards, I was really impressed with the quality of the members - everyone seemed polite, knowledgeable, and friendly. It was a breath of fresh air from some of the other forums I had been frequenting. But lately, that atmosphere seems to have been changing, and I hate to say it, but I think you've been a part of that, and it really bugs me.

Normally I wouldn't address another poster like this, but since you claim to want people to be blunt with you, and that you can "take the heat," I'm confident that you'll take this critique seriously, and give some thought to it.

PS - I like monks too.


Orthos wrote:
master arminas wrote:
For myself, I don't like people to sugar-coat things; if I screw up, tell me I screwed up. Be blunt! Don't worry about my feelings, but let me know what I need to know. Being read the riot act won't end my life; I'm a big boy and can take the heat if I put myself outthere to be judged.

You're obsessive over this issue and your constant pushing of it has begun irritating the nerves of readers and staff alike if observations of topics like this are any indication.

And as for hiding them, I have. All of them. And I have to stop by every two to three days because a brand new one ranting about the exact same subject has popped up in the topics bar.

Better? =)

Better. I disagree, of course, but those are your opinions and I welcome even them. Without dissent and disagreement, free speech is nothing but propaganda.

MA


Master Arminas, your concern and passion for the monk has been noted, and you clearly have a great understanding of the mechanics of the class, and a desire to help fix things that has been exemplified in your many suggestions. Your ideas are valuable.

That being said, your impatience at Paizo is grating on reader and designer alike. I cannot think of a class that more embodies patience and serenity than the monk. If you love monks, as I do, then embody their virtues. Wait. Be patient.

The developers have noted that they will address the issues, and furthermore, they won't use Ultimate Equipment as a bandaid. That sounds great to me.

So---wait. Be patient. Be compassionate.


Oh, I am waiting. And as I said, my feelings don't get hurt easily, so thank you all for the honest criticism.

Master Arminas


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master arminas wrote:
See, I believe that negativity is a positive.

I'm going to try to respond to that statement without it seeming like an attack or belittlement.

I'm not talking about sports or winning or losing. I'm definitely not referring to folks with suicidal ideations. I'm referring to the spark needed for the creation of good creative content. If you've never been on the receiving end, or worse had to try to mentor or ride herd on those who have, it's hard to explain.

You can trust me or discount me, but I'll stand by my maxim "negativity is the bane of creativity".

-TimD

P.S. I'm not saying don't give Paizo your feedback. I'm saying I can see where they would want to minimize the amount of constant negativity that they would be exposed to. They actually care what their fans / forum members think. The last thing I think any of us want is for them to consider our feedback with trepidation.


TimD wrote:
master arminas wrote:
See, I believe that negativity is a positive.

I'm going to try to respond to that statement without it seeming like an attack or belittlement.

I'm not talking about sports or winning or losing. I'm definitely not referring to folks with suicidal ideations. I'm referring to the spark needed for the creation of good creative content. If you've never been on the receiving end, or worse had to try to mentor or ride herd on those who have, it's hard to explain.

You can trust me or discount me, but I'll stand by my maxim "negativity is the bane of creativity".

-TimD

P.S. I'm not saying don't give Paizo your feedback. I'm saying I can see where they would want to minimize the amount of constant negativity that they would be exposed to. They actually care what their fans / forum members think. The last thing I think any of us want is for them to consider our feedback with trepidation.

"Negativity is the bane of creativity." I see where you are coming from, but I disagree . . . in a manner that shows my respect for your own beliefs, I hope.

Without criticism on one's work, how does one ever progress to a higher standard? Be it writing, sports, driving a race car, running a business; in all of these things a person absolutely needs to be told what is negative about their performance and what is positive. To not say the negative items is a grave disservice to the person in question. It reinforces an individual's belief that what they have done is right and proper and therefore makes it harder to correct in the future. Of course, that is just my philosophy on inter-personal relations, so take it with a grain of salt or not.

On the "spark of creativity," once again I find that I disagree. I know that when I am writing a story, a work of fiction, that sometimes I can write something that I feel is absolutely great. And then it gets torn apart by the folks who read and critique it. There have been many times when that has happened that I have gone back through those comments and suddenly the light bulb clicked. I rewrote those sections and the results were far better than my first attempt.

Now, of course, we are all just merely human beings and we all react in a different manner. This is just my own personal experience talking. And I believe negativity is just as inspiring of creativity as positive feedback. When warranted.

Master Arminas


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You're failing to distinguish between what you say and how you say it. That's the crux of the matter.


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I think that you're confusing negativity with criticism.

Criticism can enhance and encourage performance.
Negativity generally just discourages the attempt.

-TimD


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TimD wrote:

I think that you're confusing negativity with criticism.

Criticism can enhance and encourage performance.
Negativity generally just discourages the attempt.

-TimD

I think there is another part missing. Almost all criticism is based in opinions and not "fact".

Just because a criticism is offered does nto mean a designer has to follow it or be "wrong". They should listen and then think about it. But they do not have to agree nor act upon it.


True, which is why all criticism should be examined together, not just one source. And in the end, if someone wants to disregard the criticism and do it their way, they certainly have that right.

Master Arminas

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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I think part of it is also repetition.

If you show me your work and I say "yeah, I'm not a big fan. I don't like x, y, and z", that can prompt you to take another look at what you've got and try to improve.

If, on the other hand, I say "I don't like it, because of x, y, and z", and then the next time I see you I say "Yeah, that thing you wrote? It was pretty terrible. Remember x, y, and z? Those were awful", and then later on you run across me at a bar and I say to my friends "Hey, this is the guy who wrote that horrible thing! He thinks it should be x, y, and z, can you believe that?!" and then when you get home, you find an email from me saying "Lol, dude, x, y, z, wtf were you thinking?", and so on...that's negativity, and it's not productive. The initial criticism may or may not have been valid, but by repeating it to your face every time I see you, and complaining about the same things over and over and over again, I've done nothing by antagonize you. I may be well intentioned, and trying to emphasize what I think are serious problems with your work, but in the balance I'm really just acting like a jerk.

There have been a lot of monk threads on the boards lately, and I guarantee you the Paizo design team has read every single one of them from start to finish. Aside from some complaints about the bodywraps early on, this latest thread was not telling them anything they don't already know.

I say, let them take a look at the monk after Gen Con, and see what they have to say, then continue the discussion. Otherwise, we're beating a dead horse.

Of course, I've had a long day and a few beers, so take that with a grain of salt :P


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I think it's also worth noting in advance that "after gen con" doesn't mean "next Monday".


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There are somewhere near 11 bajillionty threads on the Monk and its flaws and such already.

Go read them.

If you still have something to add, reply in one or make your own thread.
If you don't have anything to add, then wait patiently until they decide to tackle the issue- which they've said will happen at some point after Gen-Con.

Master Arminas- go read your own thread again.. You were really just saying things that you (perhaps) and others (for sure) had already said, repeatedly. There is a multiple-thousand post thread about the issue of whether or not it was a clarification or rules change and whether or not the rest of the design team knew his original intent. While I believe Paizo does welcome honest, polite criticism I don't think they want threads that just repeat the exact same things over and over again.

The thread wasn't locked because they are jerks, or because they don't want to hear from you.. They are locking it because it said nothing that a dozen or two other threads haven't already said and was beginning the downward spiral just like most of those others have done.

Re-read what's already been said, and then wait for Gen-Con if there's nothing *new* to say on the topic..

-S

Liberty's Edge

The issue was that the new monk equiptment in Ultimate Combat made it harder to fix the monk.

The wraps make it harder to fix the monk in the same way AoMF makes it harder to fix the monk. You have yet another item that takes a slot and doesn't enhance the monks primary weapon in any way comparable to how every other class can enhance their primary weapon.

That was the thread, that was the issue. It wasn't a rehash, it was a discussion of new information. It was on topic with the release of the new book.

No one needed to lock that thread. That thread wasn't going off the rails. It didn't need to be babysat or supervised. It was a legitmate discussion of a new item and topic.

Yes MA's original title was childish, but that got changed right away.

The discussion was civil and based on new information we were getting on what the monk items added to Ultimate Magic were.

Locking it only pissed people off more.


Cheapy's Law Of Forum Threads & Monks: If a thread touches on anything related to monks no matter how tangentially, the thread will invariably end up discussing monks.

It's held so far!

Liberty's Edge

Cheapy wrote:
Cheapy's Law Of Forum Threads & Monks: If a thread touches on anything related to monks no matter how tangentially, the thread will invariably end up discussing monks.

I think it is a complicated issue.

However it has been a complicated issue for literally years now, and I think what caused the thread to blow up was:

1) People trying to find out what was in Ultimate Equipment (I still don't have my copy in the mail)

2) People seeing that rather than change, there was a doubling down on the AoMF is the cap for power for the unarmed camp.

So part of the threads were "What is in there? Did they give us a fix finally" followed by "That makes it worse, WTF?!?!"

There is also a second group of us who are think This isn't that complicated a problem, and that the fix is really easy. Just give us a way to enhance monks unarmed strike. It was fine with the brass knuckles until the nerf. We get the nerf, the flavor was weak sauce, but the basics behind it were perfect.

We don't know why there seems to be so much love for the AoMF? It sucks for monks, as it is designed for cost and power by what creatures with multiple arms can do with it. We don't get why it isn't an item fix, and we think the items added make any way of addressing it with class mods harder if not impossible until Pathfinder 1.5 as there are a ton of interactions and archetypes you have to mess with.

Well...unless they let the monk do rituals and meditations to enhance their bodies as weapons as I have suggested (which would also reduce the complaining about the VoP monk...)


Well, I didn't think the original title was that bad, but it was changed several days before the thread was locked down. As has been said before, my sense of humor doesn't seem to translate across the internet very well (and in fact, often doesn't translate in real life!).

That being said we were discussing the new items within UE, one of which (the brawling armor property) just seems like a deliberate slap in the face of people who play monks. A +2 untyped, stackable bonus on attacks and damage for unarmed strikes, as well as grapple maneuvers, for a grand total of 4,000 gp? (+1 base armor, +1 brawling special property.) That doesn't work with natural weapons? After we get told that "it makes no sense to have an item that doesn't affect both unarmed strikes and natural weapons". It is really a must have perfect magic item for anyone specializing in unarmed combat . . . except it has to be placed on light armor and cannot be put on bracers of armor. Which prevents monks from using it without losing their AC bonus, fast movement, and flurry of blows. I mean, what? What?

There was a fairly civil discussion going on with relatively few posts that required removal. It just seemed like it got shut down really quick . . . with the admonition of don't start a new thread on the subject. Which no one has done (to my knowledge).

And there are other items within UE which folks simply had not gotten to yet, some of which are good, some of which are okay, and still others have you scratching your head.

Anyway, I am letting this drop. Thank you all once again.

MA


master arminas wrote:


That being said we were discussing the new items within UE, one of which (the brawling armor property) just seems like a deliberate slap in the face of people who play monks.

See, this is part of the attitude that's causing the problem. You seem to have an adversarial view of the designers, and consider any choices that they make which don't align with your take on the monk to be some kind of intentional insult. You can't have a productive conversation with someone if they take offense every time they disagree with you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they had already said that they wanted to fix the class, and they would do so after GenCon. I don't understand why, given that knowledge, you would expect anything BEFORE then would be aimed at fixing anything. After all, they have things to do besides cater to a vocal minority.

Liberty's Edge

princeimrahil wrote:
master arminas wrote:


That being said we were discussing the new items within UE, one of which (the brawling armor property) just seems like a deliberate slap in the face of people who play monks.

See, this is part of the attitude that's causing the problem. You seem to have an adversarial view of the designers, and consider any choices that they make which don't align with your take on the monk to be some kind of intentional insult. You can't have a productive conversation with someone if they take offense every time they disagree with you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they had already said that they wanted to fix the class, and they would do so after GenCon. I don't understand why, given that knowledge, you would expect anything BEFORE then would be aimed at fixing anything. After all, they have things to do besides cater to a vocal minority.

Because Ultimate Equipment contains items that raise concerns as to if the Devs and the rest of us are on the same page as to what the problems are. The items make the problems harder to fix, and make it unclear as to what the Devs think the problems are relative to what some of us think the problems are.

That was what we were discussing.

Sean has said they haven't discussed it, but what I hope he means is they haven't had the official sit down, pow wow to discuss it.

It's kind of like if you go to the mechanic and say your muffler is hanging off and you would like them to fix it, then they come back and give you a bill for a new engine, saying that was the problem. You drive off and the new engine runs like crap, the muffler is still hanging off the back...

We don't know what the devs believe the problem is. I understand the Devs have not collectively decided what the problem is, but I hope each Dev has an opinion.

I get they aren't sharing that opinion until they can have "the" opinion on the subject, but at this point a lot of us looked that the items in Ultimate Equipment for monks and feel like they aren't getting what the problem is.

Which makes us worry what they are "fixing"


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To reiterate Gary's post: we are not against threads offering constructive criticism. We are not even against threads that touch on previous discussion topics (though, doing a quick search to see if there's already a thread that is discussing that topic is encouraged). However, we would like everyone to respect other posters, read our messageboard rules and try to be less fighty (with other posters and staff alike). With the biggest convention of the year looming, it's understandable (or it least it should be) that we'll close down a thread if it's averting too much attention from our tasks at hand. If you have issues with threads being closed or a moderator decision, please revisit our messageboard FAQ or shoot an email to webmaster@paizo.com.


I get what you are saying, Ciretose, that lack of information will lead to speculation and doubt. That's OK, but when it becomes doom & gloom, then it's getting out of control. The devs haven't done anything yet, we know the issue is on the radar, let's keep the positive ideas coming and not the nagging.


Cheapy wrote:

Cheapy's Law Of Forum Threads & Monks: If a thread touches on anything related to monks no matter how tangentially, the thread will invariably end up discussing monks.

It's held so far!

Does it apply to this thread also?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Indeed!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This monk fix thing is really starting to grate on my nerves.
I'm gonna bow out of it until we hear what the fix is.
I'll trust Jason to make the right call.

Till then!

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