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One of the things I occasionally see bruited about by the powers that be (OK, mostly James Jacobs, but he's quite the power) is the idea of an AP where PCs are only allowed to play a single race -- everybody's a gnome, to use the example cited in the AP panel at the last PaizoCon. Personally I love the idea and I'd be thrilled with Paizo if they gave that a shot (with a single exception, as I'll get into below). But given that this topic is hanging around as something Paizo would enjoy taking on, I thought I'd start a discussion on which race might be best for such a treatment, as well as which one might be worst.
For me personally, I'd love to see an all-dwarf AP. The depiction of dwarves has remained essentially static for the whole history of D&D/Pathfinder -- more or less, everybody who plays a dwarf is either playing Gimli or playing a character who is a conscious reaction to that stereotype. Yes, yes, before people start citing exceptions to that, I know it's a grotesque exaggeration made for the sake of effect -- it's the internets, what do you expect? So if we can at least agree that the dwarven stereotype is a gruff, drunken, belching, bearded guy who runs around hitting people with an axe, I would suggest that the creative minds at Paizo could do a heck of a lot to subvert that and point the Golarion dwarves in a different, subtler, more interesting direction. I'd love to see their take on dwarven society as developed throughout a whole AP, I'd love to see them peel back the layers of the culture and figure out what makes these guys tick beyond an inordinate love of rock and an inordinate hatred of orcs, and really get into the differences between various groups of dwarves. Added to this are the facts that there are scads of fascinating story hooks inherent in the backstory of the dwarves, AND doing a dwarven AP would satisfy my clamor for an all-Darklands campaign.
As for the race I don't want, it's elves. Hands-down. For one thing they've already been a significant area of focus for an AP (Second Darkness). However, for me the more salient fact is that I hate elves. I mean I hate elves. I can't encounter an elf NPC without wanting to fireball the smug off his arrogant face. There's no threat to the elven race that wouldn't make me actively participate in it. Whenever I think of how orcs hate elves, it makes me think that the orcs aren't so bad after all. Having an all-elf AP is one of the very few things Paizo could do that would make me cancel my AP subscription, because I'd rather play a blind, one-legged, 5-point-buy kobold than an elf.
Another point is that, while a human-only AP would be the easiest for Paizo to pull off, I'd find it not all that interesting. I generally speaking play humans (bonus feat FTW!) but I think everyone playing only humans in a world with so many other races sounds a bit bland.
So, what are your thoughts?
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I agree about the humans; I too favor humans in normal play, so an AP featuring only humans as playable races would be much like any other AP for me. If this should be "worth it" as an experiment, I'd prefer using one of the races I rarely play; dwarves, gnomes, or halflings. My preference would be gnomes, because that's a race I like, but still somehow rarely get around to playing :)
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I'd be all for dwarves, though I'd prefer to see a dwarven society like that in Dragon Age to Gimli of LotRs.
The only problem is, since JJ hates dwarves I doubt that'd ever happen.
My second choice would probably be halflings. A whole AP devoted to halflings could be a lot of fun, though once again you'd have associations with Tolkien.
The race I don't want to see an AP devoted to is Gnomes. Unfortunately, I think they'd be the most likely choice.
It's an interesting concept, but it would need to be built around a race that has something of a narrow bandwidth of variation. Not necessarily of character concepts, but a race that is easily stereotyped. Humans, as you mentioned, allow for any wild backstory, personality and character type under all the suns in all the worlds that ever were or will be. So focusing a campaign around them wouldn't really bring the "style" of having a single race representation in an adventuring party.
But something like dwarves...well there isn't a more sterotyped race in all of D&D culture (in my opinion). Even elves, as banal and identifiably "elfy" as they are, have more variable expressions of character/society types in published fiction, campaign settings and rpg content. Thinking on it, I'd say that Dragon Age (the first one) did more to shock me with their dwarves than any other recent fantasy fiction has done...and all DA did was pluck off their beards here and there. Other than that...we ALL know about the dwarves in every major campaign setting in all of rpg-dom :-). They live in great mountain halls, have beards, drink <alcohol of writers' choice>, talk bluntly, and probably default to a scottish accent.
For all that Paizo has done to kindle the embers of interest and reinvention in other troped out monsters and races, it would be interesting to see them retain their 3.5 version of golarion dwarves (fitting them squarely in established geek culture definitions), and then spark our love of the stout-folk through a truly entertaining all-dwarf romp through an AP.
In the end, a single race AP doesn't have to be about dwarves by any means. But, it would need to be centered around a race that is bold and iconic. It simply would have to be in order to convey a significant racial "experience" of playing a highly identifiable, easily stero-typed, distinctly advantaged/disadvantaged (for the mechanists out there) and deeply roleplayable (for the rp enthusiasts and escapists out there) group of characters.
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I'd vote for a non-PC race like orcs or lizardfolk.
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We be Goblins was awesome, and the gobbies have been a real breakout fan-favorite for all ages of gamers for Paizo. I bet the gang could throw out an entire Goblin AP and watch it become their most popular one to-date. Everyone would be so busy trying to light horses on fire that they'd never worry over-much about unbalanced encounters, smooth segues, or attaining the perfect magic items for their build.
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In the end, a single race AP doesn't have to be about dwarves by any means. But, it would need to be centered around a race that is bold and iconic. It simply would have to be in order to convey a significant racial "experience" of playing a highly identifiable, easily stero-typed, distinctly advantaged/disadvantaged (for the mechanists out there) and deeply roleplayable (for the rp enthusiasts and escapists out there) group of...
Kobolds? =)
I'd be all for dwarves, though I'd prefer to see a dwarven society like that in Dragon Age to Gimli of LotRs.
The only problem is, since JJ hates dwarves I doubt that'd ever happen.
My second choice would probably be halflings. A whole AP devoted to halflings could be a lot of fun, though once again you'd have associations with Tolkien.
The race I don't want to see an AP devoted to is Gnomes. Unfortunately, I think they'd be the most likely choice.
Halflings don't have to be Bilbo/Sam clones. I think the Golarion Halflings have it pretty rough compared to their Middle Earth cousins. In Cheliax they're a slave race, and a whole campaign could revolve around the Bellflower Network and the emancipation of a group of these guys.
A Halflings biggest strength? Being ignored/underestimated. Perfect for a spy AP!
We be Goblins was awesome, and the gobbies have been a real breakout fan-favorite for all ages of gamers for Paizo. I bet the gang could throw out an entire Goblin AP and watch it become their most popular one to-date.
I would probably be against an all-goblin AP; I think they've already been made too kooky and not evil enough over time. I.e. their depiction has drifted from NE to CN.
what you need then is a non-human AP, and everyone striving to break out of archtypes
one of the dragonlance novels offered a range of elves, maybe the hobbit movie will offer a range of dwarves. each halfling in LOTR was different
I play elves now and then but I wouldn't want an all elf AP.
Neither would I want Halfling or Gnome. Too much overacting while taking it serious in the making. With we be goblins the catch is that (I guess) everyone knows they are overacting it. And that's the fun. With the wee folk there will be players who act them out that way and still believe it's good and fitting roleplaying.
Dwarf would be cool, halforc, kobold, grippli, ratfolk, the apres (I keep on mixing up vanaras and samsarans).
And while I normally HATE them in an one-race-for-all I could even see me playing an Dhampir.
But he wouldn't be such a silly emo twilight lover Dhampir.
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At one time, Kenzer and Co. was about to do a dwarf source book for the Kingdoms of Kalamr setting that broke the stereotypes associated with dwarves. Since it got shelved when KofK would no longer be a D&D Compatible product, the author got permission to release the initial manuscript as a "freebie". I do believe that I have a copy. One steotypes that was busted was the one where dwarven women grew beards. It was explained that dwarven women didn't "grow" beards (becuase, like human women, they aren't able to) but if they were widowed and expected to run their late husband's affairs (business transcation and other stuff), then she was to wear an artificial beard while doing such transactions in order to be taken seriously by the VERY male-dominated Dwarven society. If she were to remarry then her new husband could act as "proxy" (basically he was the "figurehead head of household") in all of her late husband's transactions and she would be allowed to remove the fake beard. That was just one example of blown stereotypes but there were others.
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Our group has discussed this before and I could see Paizo maybe trying it out in the future. The key would be to include a sidebar on how to adapt the adventure for non-<race here> characters. You could assume the default characters would be of the race specified, but you'd NEED to include some adaptability.
Think of the old Dragonlance modules. The default assumption was the players would be playing the pregen Heroes of the Lance, but you could still use other characters if you want.
Now me personally, I don't like dwarves and gnomes. That's why I'd LOVE to see an AP where...
- You have to retrace the steps of the Quest for Sky. An all dwarf AP in the Darklands.
or
- You have to return to ancient gnome holdings in the First World. A gnome AP where they get to flesh out a bit more about the history of the gnomes.
Either of those I could see with a sidebar on how to adapt for non-dwarf or gnome characters.
The monstrous humanoid path is where it gets a bit trickier. How do you design an AP that maintains a strong flavor of the goblins/orcs/etc. but could still be used by a "traditional" party? I'm at a bit of a loss on that one...
- You have to retrace the steps of the Quest for Sky. An all dwarf AP in the Darklands.
This. I would buy this.
Also, for my two cents, dwarves are the way to go for a single-race AP. If only because it would give me a reason to resurrect my dwarf crafting wizard!
I would be for this in a big way. Most any race could work (except gnomes of course - I mean who plays those?! The very idea is laughable! ;-p ) but I could see paizo being very reluctant to invest the money and time into one. Despite what gamers often say they more often than not really don't want anything new or ground breaking. It has been a shock to me on many, many occasions where I've seen a new and innovative idea shot down by the vast majority of gamers as it would be too 'difficult' to use the adventure/magic item/rule etc in their existing games. Just a little imagination is all that is really needed!
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As GM you can make this decision before you start recruiting players. I ran Rise of the Runelords for an all-goblin party, Second Darkness for an all-elf party, and am in the midst of Serpent's Skull with an all-serpentfolk party. These APs lend themselves to these particular combinations quite nicely.
I think Paizo could implement this in a way that's optional, so that GMs who want to allow their players to choose any race instead of the one most suited to the AP would have options.
That said, I love the idea.
I've never played a gnome. I've never seriously considered playing a gnome. I don't have any ideas for a gnome PC that aren't frankly annoying. But if everybody was playing a gnome? Awesome.
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Well, I'd be happy with an "all one race" AP for just about any race. I would absolutely *love* to see an all-gnome AP. There's just so much of their culture that's left untapped. I mean - First World stuff, their place in Golarion society, the bleaching. It would be, quite frankly, amazing. I would happily restart my AP subscription in a heartbeat if something like this were announced.
I've been itching to play my NE Dual-Cursed Gnome Oracle of the Dark Tapestry. Obviously, his curiosity took him somewhere that it shouldn't have and he can never un-see the things he's seen.
(How's that for a sterotypical gnome?)
The only other gnome I've played was in an all-gnome 24-hour game for charity based on a conversion of "Keep on the Borderlands". The event was a huge success, despite the fact that my character (a ranger - Preston Plumm) fell victim to an unruly minotaur while letting his allies escape.
There's no such thing as Gnomes.
You have humans of regular size, very short fat humans (Halfings), short bearded humans (Dwarves). That's all.
Gnomes are a figment of your imagination and should be purged with fire.
That is all :)
Or Acid, Electricity, bludgeoning, drowning, or disintegration.
Really anything that does them bodily harm.
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All halflings AP
The Great Escape
The campaign begins with halflings enslaved by Cheliax. They are given directions to a hidden village. A place they can escape to. Now they must engineer their own escape. A caper/great escape style adventure.
There
The halflings fugitives must travel across Cheliax, dodging Hellknights, dogged slave hunters and monsters. A travelogue adventure that ends with a climactic battle on a rickety bridge against a brace of bounty hunters.
The Hidden Village
There aren't many who live in the hidden village and those who are there need to pitch in. The village is on the outskirts of some ancient ruins and something terrible lurks within. The PCs are tasked with clearing the ruins to make the village safer. Upon leaving the ruins to return to town they find it crawling with hundreds of Chelish soldiers and Hellknights.
Back Again
With the entire village enslaved the PCs must follow the Hellknight's trail to the Mineral Mines. Once again the PCs need to engineer an escape but this time it's for their friends from the hidden village! They learn Cheliax found the village due to a traitor living in the lap of luxury in Egorian.
A New Home
Having rescued their friends, the PCs must get the halfling escapees out of Cheliax. Protecting and feeding a village of Halflings in hostile territory is no mean feat, the tricky part is crossing the border, Andoran is their only hope!
The Devil to Pay
With their allies safe in Andoran one thing remains. The traitor that ruined your first chance at freedom. Travelling to Egorian is one thing, but assassinating/capturing the favored slave of Thrune as a message to all traitors? That's another trick entirely.
I'd vote for a non-PC race like orcs or lizardfolk.
I think a non-standard PC race would be the best bet too.
I know players who hate elves. Personally, I've never enjoyed dwarves or halflings.
But lizardfolk or hobgoblins would be an interesting twist.
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I'm not a big fan of the "all one race" AP idea, HOWEVER:
A mostly all Dwarf AP, set in the distant past of Golarion, titled Quest for Sky would be a pretty awesome idea for an Adventure Path. Drow, Orcs, Aboleths, starts in the Darklands and works its way to the darkened post-apocalyptic surface of the world... what's not to like?
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...snip... I mean I hate elves. I can't encounter an elf NPC without wanting to fireball the smug off his arrogant face...snip...
I don't know how anyone can get emotional about a PC race option like this.
I mean, I'm pretty confident that no elves have been mean to you in real life...
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I doubt it will happen, They may do an AP that focuses heavily on one race, but not to the point where every PC has to be a member of that race.
There are several reasons I think would make them hesitate to don an AP (their main product) for just one race:
1) As seen in this thread, every race has someone who goes berserk just thinking about it, imagine that someone find out he HAS to play a member of that race in the next AP...
2) Every limit in players choices makes somebody lose interest. An AP calls for really only good guys, some customers lose interest. An AP übergood guys can't handle, some customers lose interest. Up untill now those limitations were handled as suggestions. 'Paladins might have difficulties' etc. Closing an AP (a half year project that has do sell) to one core race would probably create an outrage a massive loss of customers. Closing the AP for six core races would probably be a desaster.
For those that don't believe me: Try this with your group. Tell them, you might be interested in doing a campaign (not just one adventure) for race x only. I predict that more than half of you will look into less than happy faces. Of course, you could make it work. You know the interests of your players, so if they really dig dwarves you know you could pull it off with a dwarf AP - you only need to convince that one (or two) player(s) that really finds the idea intriguing but wants to play that strange elf who has dwarven foster parents that lived in the woods and now want him to make peace with his foster-rock-loving-side.
Now imagine you had to sell that idea to a largely anonymus audience, and not only that, but if you fail to do so you take a severe blow to your finances.
No, I doubt it will happen soon. An AP good for dwarven characters, probably (now that James Jacobs isn't the only one in charge of the APs ;-)), but an all dwarf/elf/gnome/mite/mongrelman AP - I can't see that.
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I think the best solution for such an AP for it to be about a world of flumphs.
Secondarily, if for some ungodly reason, the flumph thing didn't work out, perhaps instead of a one race adventure path you had a "one nation" adventure path- meaning that all of the PCS came were assumed to come from one nation (and thus hold a single common national identity with national identify playing an important part of the AP).
But really I think the all flumph adventure path solution is the only real adventure path that needs to be made. Either that or smurfs.
I dunno.
on the one hand, I'd tend to think an AP so narrow in focus wouldn't work because folks really like their variety.
Then again, Skulls and Shackles is basically this same thing. "Pirate!" regardless of what you wanted to be, you are danged well goin into a pirate AP.
Also- generally all the AP's have been well received. While not all are perfect of course, by and large they've all done well and were written by good authors. This tends to foster trust on the part of we, the buyers of said products.
Some 3pp "All dwarf" or "all gnome" or even "all lizardman" (or "all goblinoid) I'd not even look at twice- I can't help but think I'd be interested if only to see Paizo's take on the thing.
When you know the story is going to be good and you know the writing is goind to be good- something you may not otherwise have poked your nose into may very well be poking your nose into.
-S
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You are basically right, unfortunatly I think there are too many 'mays' in there for paizo to devote half a year of products to the chance. Perhaps we will see an adventure or two, sooner or later to test the waters, but even if they were succesful, it would still be a long shot doing an entire AP.
Skulls and Shackles doesn't limit the players choices at the beginning of the campaign (aside from the 'Paladins wouldn't do well' suggestion). They can still build about every possible character - they just have to turn pirate, whatever background/build they have chosen. That might seem similar, but it is a very different beast from 'All Dwarves, no exeptions' (Don't get me wrong, I would love run do an all Dwarf, all Gnome or all Elf AP - but I would hate trying to sell it to a largish public.)
APs would actually be easier to write for just one race, because then you could hazard a guess at which classes you wouldnt have to cater much for
you could have more small areas, and as mounts would likely be medium you could cope better
is it a low light or dark living race
you can homely things, stuff that halflings would love, that would annoy half orcs, elves etc
Time is on your side as the races tend to live longer
magic would be very prevalent in a gnomey one. almost every member of gnome society would be able to cast the odd spell
with a small party even the wizard would have some chance at stealth
non humans tend to have better perception
Now a cool thing id like, other might not is:
mod 1: you all play halflings (lvl 1-4)
mod 2: the focus switches and everyone plays gnomes (lvl 1-4)
mod 3: everyone is dwarves (lvl 1-4)
mod 4: everyone is elves (lvl 1-4)
mod 5+6: you pick your fave pc of the above, to finish the AP at 5-10....it never gets too high level, stays in many peoples sweet spot and retains that oD&D/1st ed level cap to non humans? and you get to play lots of pcs in the same campaign!!
A single-race AP might not go over well, for reasons pointed out above. So why not a series of modules built around the concept?
That way, AP subscribers won't be forced to buy into a campaign they don't want, but the people who want an all-gnome, all-dwarf, all-left handed electrified exploding octopus, etc. campaign can get a product that piques their interest.
...snip... I mean I hate elves. I can't encounter an elf NPC without wanting to fireball the smug off his arrogant face...snip...I don't know how anyone can get emotional about a PC race option like this.
I mean, I'm pretty confident that no elves have been mean to you in real life...
It's a leftover from Tolkien. I really, really got annoyed by the elves in Tolkien, and since D&D elves were lifted straight from Tolkien...
There are of course obvious impediments to such an AP, all of which have been well rehearsed in many places and at many times. My point in the original post was to have a little fun (and maybe shed a little light) on what people would like to see if such a thing were to come to pass.
One of the things I occasionally see bruited about by the powers that be (OK, mostly James Jacobs, but he's quite the power) is the idea of an AP where PCs are only allowed to play a single race -- everybody's a gnome, to use the example cited in the AP panel at the last PaizoCon. Personally I love the idea and I'd be thrilled with Paizo if they gave that a shot (with a single exception, as I'll get into below). But given that this topic is hanging around as something Paizo would enjoy taking on, I thought I'd start a discussion on which race might be best for such a treatment, as well as which one might be worst.
For me personally, I'd love to see an all-dwarf AP. The depiction of dwarves has remained essentially static for the whole history of D&D/Pathfinder -- more or less, everybody who plays a dwarf is either playing Gimli or playing a character who is a conscious reaction to that stereotype. Yes, yes, before people start citing exceptions to that, I know it's a grotesque exaggeration made for the sake of effect -- it's the internets, what do you expect? So if we can at least agree that the dwarven stereotype is a gruff, drunken, belching, bearded guy who runs around hitting people with an axe, I would suggest that the creative minds at Paizo could do a heck of a lot to subvert that and point the Golarion dwarves in a different, subtler, more interesting direction. I'd love to see their take on dwarven society as developed throughout a whole AP, I'd love to see them peel back the layers of the culture and figure out what makes these guys tick beyond an inordinate love of rock and an inordinate hatred of orcs, and really get into the differences between various groups of dwarves. Added to this are the facts that there are scads of fascinating story hooks inherent in the backstory of the dwarves, AND doing a dwarven AP would satisfy my clamor for an all-Darklands campaign.
The timing would be nice, especially with the Hobbit just around the corner. More likely, if they do something like this, it would only be for a volume or two of the 6-part AP rather than for its entirety. 6 months is a long time for a subscriber to be getting an AP where he has no choice but to be a race he hates.
or a 96 pager containing 4-6 x 14-18 page adventures, one for each race,
If they can pull off an AP focused largely on an asian-centric culture and another with a pirates specific theme, both of which cater to very specific preferences, I think they could pull off a one-race themed AP.
It's all a question of whether or not they'd have a suitable story to go along with it and if the preference has a large enough audience. Personally, I care nothing for either an Asian focused setting or a pirate campaign but I still maintained my subscription because I respect Paizo for trying different things and I was curious to see what they did with them.
I'd make the same choice if they created a race specific adventure even if I didn't like the race (gnome) and I think a lot of others would as well.
I'd make the same choice if they created a race specific adventure even if I didn't like the race (gnome) and I think a lot of others would as well.
I'd agree there. The adventure path line of Pathfinder products has moved beyond the necessity to appeal to every gamer with every path. Of course there is a good deal of distance between theme focused AP's and player focused/restricted AP's.
So, while it's not so much a realistic or earnest desire to actually see a single race AP (at least on my part). IT is not unlike the wondering if <Superhero Y> could beat up Abraham Lincoln in a fair fight, knowing full well that it would probably never see print.
More than anything I'd just be excited/curious to see what Paizo could come up with for a single race adventure path. Maybe if the Paizonians & their freelancers ever get to the point where they have "free" time (this is merely time where they are oh so briefly un-manacled and jogged through the exercise yard mind you), we might see some "B Sides" type ideas crop up.
In that light, I don't think Gregg's OP was advocating for anyone to start holding their breath.
So, I too will support the idea of an all Left-Handed Electrified Exploding Octopus series of adventures. That or an entire path dedicated to Zombie Werepigeons from Space France.
All halflings AP
A New Home
Having rescued their friends, the PCs must get the halfling escapees out of Cheliax. Protecting and feeding a village of Halflings in hostile territory is no mean feat, the tricky part is crossing the border, Andoran is their only hope!
The Devil to Pay
With their allies safe in Andoran one thing remains. The traitor that ruined your first chance at freedom. Travelling to Egorian is one thing, but assassinating/capturing the favored slave of Thrune as a message to all traitors? That's another trick entirely.
Personally, I think it would be stronger if those two books were flipped. Revenge is awesome and all, but if you essentially "win" in the 5th book by getting your friends to safety, it would feel anticlimactic to me to go once more around the horn just for vengeance's sake.
In general, though, I think you make an excellent point for how a single-race AP could bring the awesome. Now, what can you come up with for a group of dwarves on a quest to regain one of the fallen Sky Citadels? :-D
Isn't there a default party of iconics associated with each AP? Not that they have to be used, but just having them there as optional pre-gens seems likely to preclude a non-human single-race party. The iconics don't include enough of any other single race.
Although I would like to see an all-dwarf adventure in Osiria, seeking artifacts related to the Osirian god of creation. It would be the first Ptahfinder adventure. :)
Raised by a left handed electrified exploding octopus?
I smell an Adopted trait coming on...
Well, I think a dwarf centric AP would be wonderful. But theres already been a bunch of posts on that....so now for something completely different.
How about an AP for the shunned/spurned races with no real independent culture? How about an AP that leads to the formation of a Kingdom for the prevelant two half-races? I am speaking of 1/2 elves and 1/2 orcs!
I seem to recall one of the older campaign settings having an area like that. (Greyhawk?) I love Golarion and PF, but havent read the Inner Sea guide in depth enough to know whether something like this already exists. Just a thought.
Personally, some time ago, I extended the single-race AP suggestion also to single-whatever.
Examples/suggestions:
Single-class:
- Fighters from different faction who, after a battle, have to band together.
- Monks from different schools battling in a competition.
- Wizard apprentices of the same master.
Single-faction/single-prestige-class:
- Red Mantis Assassins in action (starting as characters who want to enter the organization).
- Hellknights on duty (as above).
- Pathfinders.
- Whispering Way adepts.
Single-faction/single-race:
- Mordant Spire Elves.
Single-faction (and just that):
- Druma Blackjackets.
- Aspis Consortium traitors.
- Razmiran would-be priests.
- Hermean heroes.
Or anything else that can be imagined.
But James Jacobs understandably said it's hard that they will press the players on such things, since that reduces the width of customers a given AP might get.
As always, money destroys art.