A fighter is a fighter is a fighter. Yet, they can be wonderfully versatile when it comes to combat.
How do you prefer to build your fighters so that they survive more effectively or provide you with more flexibility, not outside of combat, but within it?
What are your minimum requirements for a "versatile combat fighter", that you would actually play and build?
I prefer my fighters to have a ranged and melee option at minimal, for example. The guy who stands in front needs options when the enemy shifts. He or she may not have a fly potion at the ready, or the terrain, creature type, or battlefield setup might dictate that isn't the best option.
Another friend of mine prefers any fighter she plays has a combat maneuver of some type, preferably of the disabling nature. Another demands IUS, for the times weapons are lost or ICly, due to the game, aren't something you'd have on hand.
How do you build yours, or how would you approach it?
This is not about being flexible outside of combat--it is about being flexible within it.
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I just started a polearm Phalanx Soldier fighter, and I'm loving it. Can't wait till level 3 when I can take my tower shield in 1 hand and polearm in the other!
Reach weapon basically instead of ranged...it's a stretch to make this feasible all the time, but hopefully if I'm facing an enemy who's consistently more than 10ft above my head I have friendly spellcaster flying me.
I also like tripping and grappling so CMB is pretty important to me.
If all else fails I can always throw a rock :)
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Quickdraw is often ignored by single weapon wielders, because they assume they'll have it at hand already, or plan on drawing it with their move, yet it is necessary for full attacking with thrown weapons when your enemy is beyond your reach. It will also let you sheath your primary weapon, quickdraw a bow and take a shot, rather than dropping your primary weapon to draw the bow and shoot.
Variety in weapons is also important. If your primary weapon does slashing, carry a bludgeoning backup. Entirely too many times I've seen people have to fall back from their one handed weapon to a dagger because they can't bypass the zombie's DR otherwise.
In some cases, this is going to require carrying a bag of holding to store extra weapons in, but that's not a bad option. Gloves of storing are also nice, especially for sneaking weapons in where you aren't permitted to bring them.
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Quickdraw is pretty handy. Samurais get it for free with their favored weapon and I use it all the time - my samurai never starts a combat with his katana in hand.
Options I use with my samurai on the regular:
Mounted combat - full druid companion mount for battlefield mobility, lancing and mounted archery. After lancing a target I'll dismount and flank with the horse, dropping the lance and drawing my katana as a free action. The mount also comes in handy for riding down escaping enemies.
Polearms and longbow - I always start combat with either a long bow or a pole arm (for 5' corridors this allows me and the barbarian to work in tandem). Once I can close distance with the enemy I'll drop the previous weapon and wield the katana two-handed. Against rogue-ish types I'll usually stay with the guisarme (my pole arm of choice) and trip with impunity which let's the 3/4 BAB guys get in on the fun while keeping enemies from escaping.
Bulwark mode - when it's more important to survive than to do damage (e.g., occupying a choke point) I can wear a shield, fight defensively or with total defense and wield the katana with one hand. If the enemies start to ignore me I'll use a challenge, fight normally for one round and slice an enemy or two in half.
Two weapon fighter for me is the best. More swings more chances to hit. Isn't that what a fighters primary asset is? My favorite fighter, recently, was only equipped with a very, very big sword and a battle gauntlet. The battle gauntlet was basically a full-arm shield with spikes. The game master I had at the time had us pick pictures of our characters for custom sheets and we could modify the build (within reason) to fit the pic. I had better stop here before I get carried away.
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Biggest thing for me is not to make the too much of a one trick pony. Which is really a list of what not to do.
Do NOT:
dump all the mental stats
put every single feat and all items toward just one thing (like just TH criticals, just AoO, or just disarms)
neglect missile combat if PC is primarily melee (or the other way around)
require some particular 'thing' (opponent, magic item, etc...) just to be reasonable effective
try to be every thing in every situation, you have to rely on your associates for some things
Give them one strength in mental stats, throw some skills at this area, plan the feat tree ahead of time. Give them capabilities at all levels, don't forget to boost saves a bit too.
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Missile weapon, melee weapon, light weapon. I like two-handed weapons (lots of damage) and reach weapons (slow down enemies before they get to you), But you must be able to fight both in-your-face enemies and stay-away-from-me enemies, andthe occasional one that swallows you. That's basic versatility.
For advanced versatility, you need to build in feat and magic support. It can be useful to take feats that aren't focused on a single weapon or type of combat. Quickdraw helps switch fast but isn't needed. Most styles really only need or four feats todo quite well at, and more than that is gravy. Power Attack, Furious Focus, Cleave (switched out at high levels), maybe Weapon Specialization, and you're inflicting lots of damage with a two-handed weapon. PB Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot,Manyshot,andDwadly Aim, and you're a whirlwind of ranged destruction. Sure, you can do more with more feats, but you dontneed to have more. Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved X Maneuver,, and Greater X Manuever, and you're a maneuver master. Don't use feats for things cash can get you -- a keen weapon is usually better than Improved Critical, for instance.
Fighters generally have enough feats to bereally good at two things. You have to decide what those two things are, and there's a variety of builds to do it. Weapon training helps a lot; your primary weapon first (melee or ranged), then your other weapon, then light weapons.
Rangers can bypass feat requirements for their combat style and then use their regular feats to support the other half.
As a GM, I tell my players, "If you build a one-trick pony, smart opponents will out-trick you," and even stupid minions may have a smart boss.
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The versatile fighter gets past the combat ontroller one-trick by standing back and filling him with arrows. :). Don't play the enemy's game.
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I don't think there is a staple for diversity, but beyond power attack and a minimum 16 str and full bab everything else is a bonus.
Second chance and furious focus get my combat dpr shout out. For defense the spring attack tree is great.
If you are a fighter you still have tons of feats for saves and fun things.
I really recommend no dump stats on a fighter. (other full bab can dump though).
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I prefer the one trick pony fighters. Oh sure, I'll carry some weapons for other circumstances so I'm not useless, but I think the fighter operates best by maximizing one thing and becoming a master of it. Just try getting past a polearm equipped combat controller who hasn't 'wasted' effort trying to be versatile...
I understand what you are saying and kinda agree. However,
First, wasn't what the OP asked about ;)
Second, the one trick ponies tend to be too close to useless when not in their chosen situation.
Third, the players of OTP's tend to whine when they are not allowed to shine all the time. Not always, but often.
A while ago one of my fellows made a TWF that was only a TWF. A significant portion of the campaign ended up on ships at sea. Meaning missile fire, spells, acrobatics, and skills became very important. For weeks he was always complaining about failing another saving throw, not having the opportunity to full attack with 2 weapons, missing with ho-hum arrow shots, and why was the GM picking on him. The GM wasn't picking on him, earlier and later in the campaign he was allowed to do his thing. But if the campaign didn't revolve around him there large amounts of time where he felt like he was useless. If he had taken iron will and maybe spent some money on a strength long bow, he may have felt like he was doing more. Incidentially, the rest of us didn't feel that way. We still felt like he was contributing.
Dodge bonuses stack, stack dodge.
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Beyond power attack and a minimum 16 str and full bab everything else is a bonus.
+1 to this. This is the baseline, and fighters can be surprisingly strong with just this backing them up. The key to making an effective fighter is starting here, to make sure you dont skimp on the damage department. From here you can take pretty much whatever you like. No joke.
I've built plenty of fighters on these boards for one PbP or another, and with these two things you can do just about anything comfortably. A high str (and for an added bonus, the lore warden archetype) can let you get away with "winging it" with manuevers, and a high AC can protect you from the AoOs. Power attack can let you get away with using any weapon you need, especially at level 1. I've been one-shotting armigers in CoT with a shield and sap combo. It's really something else. I like using a one handed weapon in two hands early, and donning a shield once I stumble across one as loot, reach the mid-level range, or feel it's dramatically appropriate to armour up in such a fashion.
I like Power Attack, Cosmopolitan, Deadly Aim, Iron Will and Combat Reflexes - depending on my ability scores - and a high wisdom score. Weapon Specialisation is amazing, but it can easily be delayed until you get your shiny +2 longsword. I use my favoured class bonus and (maybe) the human bonus and spread what few skill points I get around.
Two of my fighters have taken Improved Unarmed Strike. One, a guardsman, took it for Improved Grapple, which he did at a -4 penalty with his weapon drawn but could still usually manage to manacle surviving opponents. Another has taken it for the prospect of Stunning Fist somewhere in the future. His high wisdom and abundance of feats will certainly bring the Fort DC up to par, especially if I can squeeze in mantis style.
Here's a post of mine extolling the virtues of the shield. Basically, I argue that your power attacks are still an excellent trade, and thanks to cheap enhancement bonuses your AC scales to match the small amount of damage you lose. AC becomes increasingly "all-or-nothing" as you climb up the CR ladder, and the versatile fighter is always prepared.
How do you prefer to build your fighters so that they survive more effectively or provide you with more flexibility, not outside of combat, but within it?
I prefer dexterous fighters - or duelists - to straight-up sloggers, so I usually focus on at least one maneuver as well as keeping a missile option (easy enough with dex as your main stat).
I've often felt that Mobility was an overlooked feat...
These are great ideas, guys. Thanks for sharing all of them. :)
Also:
As a GM, I tell my players, "If you build a one-trick pony, smart opponents will out-trick you," and even stupid minions may have a smart boss.
Yes. And to me, an opponent being intelligent isn't so much about punishing the player as it is being interesting and engaging. But, there are all types of campaigns, all variety of play styles, and need for them.
And that is another discussion...one that likely ends with, "and we've a need to be different."