Hi, i'm new at this forum (1st post)and relatively new to pathfinder (only a couple months playing), but i've seen the nice community of this forum and i made the decision of joining it. Presentations over, these are my questions:
In ARG the Claw blades item says that it makes the claws of a catfolk a light slashing weapon instead of a natural attack, so i have a few questions(assuming of course you have the claws trait):
1- If i have a Catfolk with the Claw blades item and the improved natural attack(claws) feat, does my dice of damage augment or not?
2- Does a Catfolk with the Claw blades item benefits from iterative attacks?
3- For spell effects and other abilities/feats, does it now count only as a light slashing weapon or you can qualify also for abilities/feats that have some sort of natural attack prerequisite?
Mainly my doubts are because i don't understend to how point this item substitutes the natural attack for "obvious" reasons. You still have claws and i don't see how a Catfolk can improve his claw damage(feats, spells, etc) and then put some blades on and it's over (assuming it doesn't qualify more for it because of the weapon change).
Well that's all for today, thx for answering and sorry for the bad english :)
I'm going to disagree on BBT's first point. The claws themselves don't change how much damage is done, just how. Might seem weird for me to say that after my posts in a Feral Combat Training thread, but I think Improved Natural Attack would be fine.
What feats let Aasimars and Humans wield them? Racial Heritage, but what else?
catfolk exemplar.
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Racial Heritage + Catfolk Exemplar, and now you can wield claw blades.
Let's look at them here:
Claw Blades:
These subtle blades can only be used by catfolk with the cat’s claws racial trait. Bought in a set of five, they fit over the wearer’s claws on one hand. The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on
claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon.
Catfolk with the cat’s claws racial trait are proficient
with this weapon. The claw blades can be enhanced like a
masterwork weapon for the normal costs. The listed cost
of the item is for one set of five claws for one hand.
so can you take feral combat training then use them with FOB?
so can you take feral combat training then use them with FOB?
Yep.
I'd be curious about all those points as well, plus do Claw Blades switching to light slashing mean the catfolk no longer gets to make two claw attacks at his highest BAB?
Yes, natural weapon attack routine requires natural weapons.
3- For spell effects and other abilities/feats, does it now count only as a light slashing weapon or you can qualify also for abilities/feats that have some sort of natural attack prerequisite?
This one is a "depends."
If the prereq actually states a 'claw natural attack'(or 'natural attack(claw)' or something stating natural attack), you can't take it/it stops functioning as the prereq is lost.
If it says a claw attack, you can take it/it continue to works as the prereq is still being fulfilled.
a more interesting question is are you hands considered empty while using claw blades
and
if the above is a yes, can a Magus use claw blades for spellcombat/spellstrike.
and
can claw blades be a blacklade ?
I think improved natural weapon feats will work with this. You take the feat and then your claw damage goes up. Put the claw blades on and it switches it to a slashing weapon, it does NOT mean you loose any feat enhancements to your natural weapons the claws just changes the type of attack once it is on.
so can you take feral combat training then use them with FOB?Yep.
See, that doesn't seem right to me. Here is FCT in
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Now look at this line from Claw Blades.
The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on
claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon.
Claw Blades aren't a natural attack, so FCT can't be used with them. That's how I see it anyway.
here's another question, if claw blades just turn your attacks into light slashing weapons ... why not just use a normal melee light slashing weapon, where's the benefit ?
Most likely the +1 to Attack and Damage. Also looks pretty cool in my mind.
I can't speak as to any official ruling or anything but heres how I would run it in my games.
1. Yes, they are still claw attacks and the blades say they just change the type of weapon while dealing the same damage, it's also not game breaking to have a light weapon dealing a D8 of damage with the expense of 2-3 feats Ex: you can do it with 1 and with a better crit range with a sawtooth sabre
2. Absolutely yes, this is what I see as the major benefit of this item. You can start with a pair of natural attacks and then upgrade to light weapons once you have the cash/high enough bab to benefit from them.
3. To me this is the tricky bit and cant really be answered with one general statement. I'd say the closest to complete would be skylancer4's approach, where anything that just says claw would still function, but if it specifies Natural attack at all it may stop working, but I think I'd have to rule on them in a case by case basis, like I already said, Improved natural attack would still apply because it alters the claw attacks before the blades are added.
To answer another question I saw yes with the claws your hands would still count as open, but you couldn't use them while you were holding anything else in the hand.
Personally my question about the claw blades and the claws in general is how concealed they are when retracted, if you can still retract them with the blades attached, and what type of action it would take to extend/retract them. I'm going to assume best case scenario for my games until theres some sort of official ruling if any, and say it is a free action to extend or retract them, and unless someone knows to look for them it is a pretty high base dc to notice them with it being maybe 5 less with the blades attached and I'd even go so far as to say you would get a bonus on slight of hand checks to conceal the blades.
I don't really like the idea of letting humans or aassimar get access to feats that require physical traits. I mean, if you really wanna exploit the claws in your character build, then just play a catfolk you know? If you want to play a human or aassimar based on the culture and attitudes of a catfolk, thats what those feats are for.
Asta
PSY
so can you take feral combat training then use them with FOB?Yep.See, that doesn't seem right to me. Here is FCT in
** spoiler omitted **
Now look at this line from Claw Blades.
Claw Blades aren't a natural attack, so FCT can't be used with them. That's how I see it anyway.The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on
claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon.
At no point is "natural attack" a prereq for any of the feats. It isn't for Weapon Focus nor is it in the prereq for FCT. Whether it is a light slashing weapon or a light B/P/S weapon with the natural weapon designation is irrelevant to the feats in question. All that matters is it is a "claw" attack. As long as that requirement is fulfilled, FCT treats the "claw" attack with claw blades as a 'Monk Weapon' and so can be used with FoB.
a more interesting question is are you hands considered empty while using claw blades
and
if the above is a yes, can a Magus use claw blades for spellcombat/spellstrike.
and
can claw blades be a blacklade ?
Yes your claw with a set of claw blades would be considered "empty."
Yes they could be used for the magus abilities spellcombat and spell strike.
And given the bladebound says one-handed slashing weapon, no, a single set of clawblades (light slashing) wouldn't be acceptable as a blackblade. Light and One-handed are two distinct classifications for weapons.
here's another question, if claw blades just turn your attacks into light slashing weapons ... why not just use a normal melee light slashing weapon, where's the benefit ?
The damage increase from feats like INW(claw) and the catfolk rogue talent Vicious Claws could make it attractive (1d6+ xd8's SA). Toss in even if you are disarmed you still do the same damage, it is even more attractive.
Personally my question about the claw blades and the claws in general is how concealed they are when retracted, if you can still retract them with the blades attached, and what type of action it would take to extend/retract them. I'm going to assume best case scenario for my games until theres some sort of official ruling if any, and say it is a free action to extend or retract them, and unless someone knows to look for them it is a pretty high base dc to notice them with it being maybe 5 less with the blades attached and I'd even go so far as to say you would get a bonus on slight of hand checks to conceal the blades.
I don't really like the idea of letting humans or aassimar get access to feats that require physical traits. I mean, if you really wanna exploit the claws in your character build, then just play a catfolk you know? If you want to play a human or aassimar based on the culture and attitudes of a catfolk, thats what those feats are for.
Asta
PSY
Quite honestly, if you have cats you know their claws don't retract completely in unless you are cutting them down VERY (as in dangerously) low. Anyone who is familiar with catfolk would know that some of them have natural weapons. The metal glinting from your paws when wearing claw blades would be a dead give away that you are armed. If the claw blades were meant to be more easily hidden than other weapons there would be some provision where there would be a penalty for perception checks to notice them or a bonus for hidding them with sleight of hand (like some of the other weapons have). There are actually weapons with descriptions detailing that type of information, claw blades didn't get that in their write up so they don't have it.
Once they are "worn" they are ready for use, just like your claws would be, no need for 'readying' them. If there was some sort of necessary action to bring them to bear, it would have been in the write up, again they don't have anything detail that.
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I don't really like the idea of letting humans or aassimar get access to feats that require physical traits. I mean, if you really wanna exploit the claws in...
Really? It requires two feats for an Aasimar or Human. One is Racial Heritage, which means you have Catfolk blood, the other is Catfolk Exemplar, which gives you the physical traits, meaning your bloodline is more profound.
How can you have a problem with that?
So, FCT works on the Tekko-kagi (iron claw) now?
Cool story bro.
Wait, does that mean Weapon Focus hammer works on the Light Hammer, Warhammer, Lucerne Hammer, Gnome Hooked Hammer, Meteor Hammer, and Dwarven Longhammer?
RAW?
IUS
Listed as it is a prereq for:
There is obviously a list of "natural attacks".
You NEED WF with the selected natural attack, at no point does it say you NEED the selected attack to still be considered a natural attack. Proficiency with natural weapon (from the list) to get WF, FCT to get designated attack as monk weapon.
Claw blades are the only time I've ever seen a natural weapon "change" type. RAI? Who knows but RAW it still works.
So bro, story over. Hopefully it wasn't "TL;DR" for you. Tried to keep it short so you could go back to bumping your other thread.
For what it is worth yeah you could do it, if you can get Tekko-kagi onto the natural weapons list under "other"...
You seriously went to bump the other thread... lol
I am just being silly.
I am really not sure if you need Weapon Focus(Claw), or Weapon Focus(Claw Blade).
Actually, I just did a double take on the Claw Blades.
They seem to work in a weirder way than I originally thought.
WF (Claw Blade) wouldn't work, they aren't on the natural attack list and so don't qualify on the prereq of FCT. The only reason they do work with FCT (Claw) is because they modify the claw attack instead of replace it.
So, Weapon Focus(Claw Blade) would always do nothing?
For FCT? RAW, yes.
It does bring up the fact that if you have WF (Claw) and WF (Claw Blades) you would seem to get +1 to hit for each weapon (which I seriously doubt was intended), as they are essentially the same attack.
Basically, expect FAQ/Errata in the upcoming future.
The damage increase from feats like INW(claw) and the catfolk rogue talent Vicious Claws could make it attractive (1d6+ xd8's SA). Toss in even if you are disarmed you still do the same damage, it is even more attractive.
I can buy the d8 for rogue talent that seems reasonable use.
but for general use having to spend feats to increase unarmed damage when you could just as easily use a weapon with a higher base damage .... its a stretch.
Maybe if you can get access to Strong Jaw (i think its called) increase damage die of natural attacks by 2 steps, then maybe.
The damage increase from feats like INW(claw) and the catfolk rogue talent Vicious Claws could make it attractive (1d6+ xd8's SA). Toss in even if you are disarmed you still do the same damage, it is even more attractive.
I can buy the d8 for rogue talent that seems reasonable use.
but for general use having to spend feats to increase unarmed damage when you could just as easily use a weapon with a higher base damage .... its a stretch.
Maybe if you can get access to Strong Jaw (i think its called) increase damage die of natural attacks by 2 steps, then maybe.
It isn't just 1 weapon, it is 2. For the cost of an racial alternate trait you gain 2 weapons which can never be lost or disarmed and both attack at full BAB and full STR mod added. For the cost of a feat those weapons both deal "typical" weapon damage. It is an additional point on average for each attack (and so 2 points of damage for a feat).
Strong jaw from base damage (1d4) is only an average of 2 more damage on each attack and requires at least a 7th level buffer (druid) or A LOT of money for wands or scrolls.
The feat is available at first level and stacks with anything you do from that point (enlarge, strong jaw, etc.).
I will admit I'm not really a cat person so had no idea exactly how retractable thier claws may be.
and as to the racial heritage opening up feats like this, I just dont like it. I know adding the rules options for all the different possible half breed's would be a burden on the rules and just a pain in the ass, but if interbreeding with catfolk was common enough for people to have thier traits, there would be half catfolk runnin around. It's not a huge limitation to my players, to me there are simpler ways of getting natural claw attacks.
Asta
PSY
I will admit I'm not really a cat person so had no idea exactly how retractable thier claws may be.
and as to the racial heritage opening up feats like this, I just dont like it. I know adding the rules options for all the different possible half breed's would be a burden on the rules and just a pain in the ass, but if interbreeding with catfolk was common enough for people to have thier traits, there would be half catfolk runnin around. It's not a huge limitation to my players, to me there are simpler ways of getting natural claw attacks.
Asta
PSY
Cats claws stick out, they just extend more when a cat wants to use them. It's why kittens get "stuck" on things, they aren't used to them and the claws drag and catch.
I'm not completely against the feats, reason being... You can do just about everything you want with the ARG but it is completely up to DM fiat (much more so than most things). Giving the feat means you have an actual rule to make minor alterations to the character both crunch and fluff. It's limited and regulated (traits being limited to one of each type, like race, magical, etc). It's much less disruptive than making a whole other race or variant race just to fit a concept. It also is going to be compatible with everything published past and future. The number of things that may not "make sense" for some people are out weighed by those where it does.
The damage increase from feats like INW(claw) and the catfolk rogue talent Vicious Claws could make it attractive (1d6+ xd8's SA). Toss in even if you are disarmed you still do the same damage, it is even more attractive.
I can buy the d8 for rogue talent that seems reasonable use.
but for general use having to spend feats to increase unarmed damage when you could just as easily use a weapon with a higher base damage .... its a stretch.
Maybe if you can get access to Strong Jaw (i think its called) increase damage die of natural attacks by 2 steps, then maybe.
It isn't just 1 weapon, it is 2. For the cost of an racial alternate trait you gain 2 weapons which can never be lost or disarmed and both attack at full BAB and full STR mod added. For the cost of a feat those weapons both deal "typical" weapon damage. It is an additional point on average for each attack (and so 2 points of damage for a feat).
Strong jaw from base damage (1d4) is only an average of 2 more damage on each attack and requires at least a 7th level buffer (druid) or A LOT of money for wands or scrolls.
The feat is available at first level and stacks with anything you do from that point (enlarge, strong jaw, etc.).
They can still be sundered so don't act too smug your your GM will take your toys away ;)
Just for comparison an Alchemist can get 3 full BAB full STR natural attacks at level 2 that last 20 minutes ,
Tengu can get 3 full BAB full STR natural attacks just with racial feats
Hell even sorcs can pickup 2 claws and theirs improve quite a bit
Summoner Synths can have 2 4 hell 6 claw attacks.
Unless your going for a theme, or are tying to do something tricky with free hands while armed non monk claw blades are nothing special.
You need to check the source of die size improvements as well like sources don't stack.
They can still be sundered so don't act too smug your your GM will take your toys away ;)
Just for comparison an Alchemist can get 3 full BAB full STR natural attacks at level 2 that last 20 minutes ,
Tengu can get 3 full BAB full STR natural attacks just with racial feats
Hell even sorcs can pickup 2 claws and theirs improve quite a bit
Summoner Synths can have 2 4 hell 6 claw attacks.Unless your going for a theme, or are tying to do something tricky with free hands while armed non monk claw blades are nothing special.
You need to check the source of die size improvements as well like sources don't stack.
The only way the claws are getting sundered is if the character is dead. The point being, the catfolk claws are there 24/7 whenever the character wants or needs them. The feats make your attacks better even without claw blades. The claw blades, just give them a minor boost and a way to bypass DR that isn't normally available to creatures who rely on NAs. It's gravy for a martial character.
Any creature seriously looking at FCT has some sort of rider effect on the NA, that is why they are trying to get it into a FoB. Claw blades allow that creature to deal with things like DR/material+magic and add weapon enchancements. It's a niche, the only other way to do it before was AoMF which was very very expensive to just enhance an attack or two.
So an alchemist can be on par for 20 minutes at level 2. Okay cool. They're great for that 15 min adventuring day then. There is still a time limit where the catfolk claws are there in the middle of the night or when your resources are completely depleted. That means something unless your DM is so horrible they let you control the flow of the game. And you are investing class levels to get what the catfolk got with a feat. It is a larger investment of resources with the implications of the choices made.
Tengu can get claw attacks, okay. I'm not sure what the point is for bringing up the Tengu, half orc. They can have natural attacks, yay for them? What does it have to do with claw blades?
And well the Sorc and Synth... Magic breaks things the Sorc is going to be better at most things late game. And the Synth, well. Neither of those is comparing apples to apples is the "politically correct" way to point out the flaw in the comparisson.
They can still be sundered so don't act too smug your your GM will take your toys away ;)
Just for comparison an Alchemist can get 3 full BAB full STR natural attacks at level 2 that last 20 minutes ,
Tengu can get 3 full BAB full STR natural attacks just with racial feats
Hell even sorcs can pickup 2 claws and theirs improve quite a bit
Summoner Synths can have 2 4 hell 6 claw attacks.Unless your going for a theme, or are tying to do something tricky with free hands while armed non monk claw blades are nothing special.
You need to check the source of die size improvements as well like sources don't stack.
The only way the claws are getting sundered is if the character is dead. The point being, the catfolk claws are there 24/7 whenever the character wants or needs them. The feats make your attacks better even without claw blades. The claw blades, just give them a minor boost and a way to bypass DR that isn't normally available to creatures who rely on NAs. It's gravy for a martial character.
Any creature seriously looking at FCT has some sort of rider effect on the NA, that is why they are trying to get it into a FoB. Claw blades allow that creature to deal with things like DR/material+magic and add weapon enchancements. It's a niche, the only other way to do it before was AoMF which was very very expensive to just enhance an attack or two.
So an alchemist can be on par for 20 minutes at level 2. Okay cool. They're great for that 15 min adventuring day then. There is still a time limit where the catfolk claws are there in the middle of the night or when your resources are completely depleted. That means something unless your DM is so horrible they let you control the flow of the game. And you are investing class levels to get what the catfolk got with a feat. It is a larger investment of resources with the implications of the choices made.
Tengu can get claw attacks, okay. I'm not sure what the point is for bringing up the Tengu, half orc. They...
Claw blades are a weapon and are perfectly valid for being sundered. If you claw blades are sundered you go back to 2 natural un-enchanted claws.
Look I'm not saying they suck wholesale but they're certainly not the best things since sliced bread either.
you can sleep with short swords in the bed ;) no more hazzardous than razor sharp blades in the bed. The feats you take to improve using the claw blades that only apply to melee weapons won't transfer to your natural weapons if your reduced to them.
I can't see any significant situation where claw blades are so much better than any other option. They sound better than they really are
Btw alchemist can just brew another mutagen whenever he feels like it, no daily limit.
Weird thought. As each finger of a Claw Blade is separate, can each finger be of a different material?
Just a thought.
I am beginning to better understand, and like the Claw Blade.
long as you don't mind only having 1/5th the damage penetrate the DR, sure why not. :P
Just gonna throw it out there.
can anyone post a build with claw blades that is significantly better than someone not using claw blades ?
Having each claw a different material is still a good idea.
Mithral and Adamantine seem like good choices, but some campaigns may call for different materials.
if you could do on claw blades you could do it with any weapon, cute idea but a house rule none the less.
It isn't just 1 weapon, it is 2. For the cost of an racial alternate trait you gain 2 weapons which can never be lost or disarmed and both attack at full BAB and full STR mod added. For the cost of a feat those weapons both deal "typical" weapon damage. It is an additional point on average for each attack (and so 2 points of damage for a feat).
Woaw, wait a minute... if the claws become light slashing weapons, then they now abide to the regular TWF rules, with the attack penalties and having your off-hand dealing half your Strength modifier. Where is it written that you're now able to make mutliple attacks like TWF with the claws ?
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The damage increase from feats like INW(claw) and the catfolk rogue talent Vicious Claws could make it attractive (1d6+ xd8's SA). Toss in even if you are disarmed you still do the same damage, it is even more attractive.
I can buy the d8 for rogue talent that seems reasonable use.
but for general use having to spend feats to increase unarmed damage when you could just as easily use a weapon with a higher base damage .... its a stretch.
Maybe if you can get access to Strong Jaw (i think its called) increase damage die of natural attacks by 2 steps, then maybe.
The biggest reason you'd want to use the catfolk claw attacks is their new feat "Claw Pounce" that they can choose at BAB +10, which essentially lets them charge and full-attack, but only with their claws.
I think it's safe to assume that the claw blades were intended to still be considered claw attacks for all prerequisites and feats (so Feral Combat Training should work just fine with them), the only reason they change the claw from "natural attack" to "light slashing" is so that you can get iterative attacks with them.
HOWEVER: Don't forget that if you're treating them as light slashing weapons instead of naturals, you need two-weapon fighting to get the extra attack. In other words, you can't just put on a pair of claw blades and gain an extra claw attack, you need to have TWF to get the extra main-hand attack with lower penalties. The claws, on their own, have no penalties to BAB, since they're primary natural weapons. As soon as you put the claw blades on, you need TWF and you'll ALWAYS take at least a -2 to all the attacks with those claws. For a Rogue, it's definitely a fair trade, since each attack has the potential to deal sneak damage (with d8s instead of d6s!). For other martial characters? Not so much.
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Weird thought. As each finger of a Claw Blade is separate, can each finger be of a different material?
Just a thought.
I am beginning to better understand, and like the Claw Blade.
I don't think you could do this, as the claw blades come in "sets", so you wouldn't be able to create a set that has one claw of each type. You could, I guess, buy 4 sets made of different materials and then mix/match them, but the rules have no say on what would happen then.
I don't think the intent of the claw blades was to make it so you can't make a normal full attack with your claws per NA rules. It seems rather silly to me to put that restriction on. I think they were intended to simply allow clawed folks to get some versatility by adding on different special materials (adamantine, etc) to their natural attacks, and also to be able to do enchantments cheaper than buying an AOMFs. I don't think it was intended to make you require TWF to use your claws, nor to turn them into iterative attacks. There's no reason to need to do this, if you have a high enough BAB there's no rule that says you can't make an iterative attack with your claws instead. If you're not TWF, you don't need to take penalties, and you don't take a damage hit by alternating your claws when you do it.
IE: If you had BAB 16, 16 STR catfolk fighter, they could make 2 claw attacks at +19 each, or, they could make four at +19, +14, +9, and +4. Just like someone with a long-sword in his left hand and a dagger in his right, if he's not using TWF, he can alternate between the two, and his attacks are not considered secondary. You only get secondary attacks with TWF, and TWF is only used when you get extra attacks from TWF.
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I don't think the intent of the claw blades was to make it so you can't make a normal full attack with your claws per NA rules. It seems rather silly to me to put that restriction on. I think they were intended to simply allow clawed folks to get some versatility by adding on different special materials (adamantine, etc) to their natural attacks, and also to be able to do enchantments cheaper than buying an AOMFs. I don't think it was intended to make you require TWF to use your claws, nor to turn them into iterative attacks. There's no reason to need to do this, if you have a high enough BAB there's no rule that says you can't make an iterative attack with your claws instead. If you're not TWF, you don't need to take penalties, and you don't take a damage hit by alternating your claws when you do it.
IE: If you had BAB 16, 16 STR catfolk fighter, they could make 2 claw attacks at +19 each, or, they could make four at +19, +14, +9, and +4. Just like someone with a long-sword in his left hand and a dagger in his right, if he's not using TWF, he can alternate between the two, and his attacks are not considered secondary. You only get secondary attacks with TWF, and TWF is only used when you get extra attacks from TWF.
This is true, but if we're talking about this Fighter/Monk/Sorc/DD build, you're not going to get iterative attacks very early on. At level 10, for example, you'd be looking at either 2 claws at BAB +6, or 2 claws at BAB +6 and +1. With flurry of blows, you'd be doing 2 attacks at +5. None of these are super optimal. With the claw blades, you wouldn't be able to do the 2 claws at BAB +6, since they're now considered light weapons. If you went Two-Weapon Fighting instead, you'd get 3 claws at +4/+4/-1. A little better.
Anyway, the point is the claw blades DO have drawbacks, as they should. They shouldn't just make claws way better all the time. I think them becoming light slashing weapons is to balance out the fact that you can now enchant your claws.
Why couldn't Claw Blades be made of a Special Material?
There is nothing that suggests that at all.
they can be made from one type of material not 5