The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.


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Silver Crusade

Crystal Frasier wrote:
Know Direction has put up their recording of the Diversity in Gaming panel from PaizoCon2014. Give it a listen if you want to hear me swear a lot.

I was astonished to read that a boy-band aimed at pre-pubescent girls would find the time to be politically correct on a gaming panel, and that you would be so ungrateful as to swear at them!

Then I realised that the name of the boy-band is One Direction....


Seems like a good spot for this

edit: whoops, found a version with no comments.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Seems like a good spot for this

Funny. But do not read the comments. Unless you like bile and transphobia.


I really needed that laugh today. That was awesome.


Interview with the 5th ed designers about the sexuality and gender diversity section of the rules.

Link.


Crystal Frasier wrote:
Know Direction has put up their recording of the Diversity in Gaming panel from PaizoCon2014. Give it a listen if you want to hear me swear a lot.

My wife and actually just sat down to listen to it!


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KSF wrote:

Interview with the 5th ed designers about the sexuality and gender diversity section of the rules.

Link.

That's cool of them. Still not getting 5ed though :p

Liberty's Edge

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Hey folks! Long time no see.

This seems highly relevant to the interests of those in this thread, and demonstrates that Wes Schneider is an awesome human being, as is everyone else involved in the event in question.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Hey folks! Long time no see.

This seems highly relevant to the interests of those in this thread, and demonstrates that Wes Schneider is an awesome human being, as is everyone else involved in the event in question.

That's great!


I've been gone for awhile for personal reasons. But, as part of being gone, I've been made aware of something important... and I need to bring it up on here because it is related.

A story about what charges of inappropriate conduct are common to modern feminism that anti-feminism gets right. Please give it a read; it's not misogynist in the least. If anything, it's utterly fair in its examination of the item at hand (and, it does call the anti-feminists out on some B.S. they spout).

Now, how does the above relate to this topic?

There is this article from Jezebel that discusses trans women and issues of socialization in relation to feminism. I would suggest giving it a read; it's an interesting article and the author makes some interesting comments. The accuracy of what the author has to say about the experiences of trans women does not matter; what matters is this article presents two ways that trans women are viewed within feminism. What matters even more is what this article does: It presents two ways trans women are involved in the Gender War. One in which they are the enemy, and one in which they are a weapon against the enemy.

It is unfortunate this situation exists. But it does not change that some people are trying to decide what position trans women have in the Gender War without even consulting them. Even going as far as to lump them in with men in quite a few cases.

I am shaking my head at this. And, unfortunately, this means that trans women may have to be very aware what the extremist feminists are saying about men because some of those extremists are applying the same to trans women.


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Legion Janus wrote:
The accuracy of what the author has to say about the experiences of trans women does not matter

It's worth noting that the author of the Jezebel article is trans, so at the very least, I'm sure it's true to her own experience of being a trans woman. (All trans women do not have identical experiences, of course.)

Legion Janus wrote:
What matters even more is what this article does: It presents two ways trans women are involved in the Gender War. One in which they are the enemy, and one in which they are a weapon against the enemy.

That does happen, certainly, but there is a third way, which is that trans women (and trans men) engage with feminism on their own, in their own ways, and with their own agency. Look at Julia Serano's work, for one example, and Laverne Cox's use of the spotlight to advocate for trans people, and trans women of color in particular. And look at the posts made by trans people on this very board when feminist issues come up.

Legion Janus wrote:
And, unfortunately, this means that trans women may have to be very aware what the extremist feminists are saying about men because some of those extremists are applying the same to trans women.

I think a lot of us (edit: us trans folk) have come across that sort of rhetoric at one time or another, and recognize it readily. That sort of trans-excluding feminism is unfortunately potent at times, particularly in the UK. And the ability of its proponents to cause mischief, misery or harm to trans people should be not discounted. For example, there was Janice Raymond's involvement in blocking insurance coverage for trans people in the US in the early 80s, as Monica Roberts discusses here. (Please note that are some very ugly, hateful quotes from Raymond in that article.) More recently, there has been at least some involvement by them in campaigns to fight against trans rights legislation (particularly the recent law passed in California). There have been issues surrounding access to women's shelters. And there is Australian academic Sheila Jeffrey's latest book attacking transgender people, "Gender Hurts," (which includes a section where she writes that trans women's vaginas smell bad - I am not making that up).

It's certainly part of the political landscape, and part of the feminist landscape. And it can be a great source of pain and distress and hardship. One should not minimize or dismiss the harm they cause, and I wish more feminists were aware of this still-existing problem. (When I describe some of this stuff to friends, they're surprised it still exists.) It's also dispiriting to see an important feminist figure like Germaine Greer attack trans people. (Just as it's heartening to see someone like Gloria Steinem or Joanna Russ reject their past transphobia.)

But I also have to say that every feminist I've ever dealt with directly has been very respectful and supportive of trans people, and I suspect that is much more common, increasingly so, within modern feminism. And I've never felt I've been weaponized in order to be used in as fodder in an argument, for example.

Again, just going by my own experience, which is not comprehensive. So I may be wrong. Others will hopefully chime in.


Just finished listening to the Diversity in Gaming panel from this year's PaizoCon. (See Crystal's post near the end of the previous page for the link.) Definitely worth a listen for anyone interested in this subject. Crystal, thanks for your contribution.


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Welp, today marks ten more days until I move in with my girlfriend down in Ft. Lauderdale. We found a pride center last time I was there. I definitely want to check it out once I am there for good.

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

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Odraude wrote:
Welp, today marks ten more days until I move in with my girlfriend down in Ft. Lauderdale. We found a pride center last time I was there. I definitely want to check it out once I am there for good.

Definitely do. Small communities tend to be built in areas where pride centers put their spaces. It's great, when in an arch-conservative state to have place where you know you are welcome and can be somewhat unafraid to be yourselves.


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Thanks. Florida is so weird. Closer to the south you get, the more liberal it gets.

I hope they overturn the ban on gay marriage here. Since my girlfriend is still seen as a male for marriage, we cannot get married until it is overturned.


Legion Janus wrote:

I've been gone for awhile for personal reasons. But, as part of being gone, I've been made aware of something important... and I need to bring it up on here because it is related.

A story about what charges of inappropriate conduct are common to modern feminism that anti-feminism gets right. Please give it a read; it's not misogynist in the least. If anything, it's utterly fair in its examination of the item at hand (and, it does call the anti-feminists out on some B.S. they spout).

Now, how does the above relate to this topic?

There is this article from Jezebel that discusses trans women and issues of socialization in relation to feminism. I would suggest giving it a read; it's an interesting article and the author makes some interesting comments. The accuracy of what the author has to say about the experiences of trans women does not matter; what matters is this article presents two ways that trans women are viewed within feminism. What matters even more is what this article does: It presents two ways trans women are involved in the Gender War. One in which they are the enemy, and one in which they are a weapon against the enemy.

It is unfortunate this situation exists. But it does not change that some people are trying to decide what position trans women have in the Gender War without even consulting them. Even going as far as to lump them in with men in quite a few cases.

I am shaking my head at this. And, unfortunately, this means that trans women may have to be very aware what the extremist feminists are saying about men because some of those extremists are applying the same to trans women.

I really enjoyed the first article linked, it really does a good job of pointing out why feminism and I don't get along in some places. At this point in the movement, I wonder if they(yes, I'm making a sweeping generalization here, deal with it) have been staring into the abyss too long. As most people here know, I'm a huge fan of OWOD Werewolf, and the Black Furies tribebook was my first exposure to feminist ideals outside of the occasional topic in school growing up. One of the things that always stuck with me from the first tribebook(not revised) was an elder Fury talking about how easy it is to look around and see everything as wrong and when you have the natural physical ability to rip the head off the nearest man you see that offends you- note the choice of word here, *offends*, not necessarily having actually done anything to you or in fact to anyone-- it's easy to let the Wyrm(source of evil in the game) in to your heart.


Freehold DM wrote:
Legion Janus wrote:

I've been gone for awhile for personal reasons. But, as part of being gone, I've been made aware of something important... and I need to bring it up on here because it is related.

A story about what charges of inappropriate conduct are common to modern feminism that anti-feminism gets right. Please give it a read; it's not misogynist in the least. If anything, it's utterly fair in its examination of the item at hand (and, it does call the anti-feminists out on some B.S. they spout).

Now, how does the above relate to this topic?

There is this article from Jezebel that discusses trans women and issues of socialization in relation to feminism. I would suggest giving it a read; it's an interesting article and the author makes some interesting comments. The accuracy of what the author has to say about the experiences of trans women does not matter; what matters is this article presents two ways that trans women are viewed within feminism. What matters even more is what this article does: It presents two ways trans women are involved in the Gender War. One in which they are the enemy, and one in which they are a weapon against the enemy.

It is unfortunate this situation exists. But it does not change that some people are trying to decide what position trans women have in the Gender War without even consulting them. Even going as far as to lump them in with men in quite a few cases.

I am shaking my head at this. And, unfortunately, this means that trans women may have to be very aware what the extremist feminists are saying about men because some of those extremists are applying the same to trans women.

I really enjoyed the first article linked, it really does a good job of pointing out why feminism and I don't get along in some places. At this point in the movement, I wonder if they(yes, I'm making a sweeping generalization here, deal with...

Well, in the real world women don't usually have the natural physical ability to rip the head off the nearest man, so the more common reaction to someone who offends you is to be offended and possibly to express that verbally - or in writing if the whole thing is online. It's pretty rare to hear of men being actually physically assaulted for offending women. (At least by the women - in more traditional cultures it was and is common for the man responsible for the woman to do so on her behalf.)

And really, I wouldn't take the Black Furies as anything like a fair introduction to feminist ideals. An extremist parody, if anything.


thejeff wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Legion Janus wrote:

I've been gone for awhile for personal reasons. But, as part of being gone, I've been made aware of something important... and I need to bring it up on here because it is related.

A story about what charges of inappropriate conduct are common to modern feminism that anti-feminism gets right. Please give it a read; it's not misogynist in the least. If anything, it's utterly fair in its examination of the item at hand (and, it does call the anti-feminists out on some B.S. they spout).

Now, how does the above relate to this topic?

There is this article from Jezebel that discusses trans women and issues of socialization in relation to feminism. I would suggest giving it a read; it's an interesting article and the author makes some interesting comments. The accuracy of what the author has to say about the experiences of trans women does not matter; what matters is this article presents two ways that trans women are viewed within feminism. What matters even more is what this article does: It presents two ways trans women are involved in the Gender War. One in which they are the enemy, and one in which they are a weapon against the enemy.

It is unfortunate this situation exists. But it does not change that some people are trying to decide what position trans women have in the Gender War without even consulting them. Even going as far as to lump them in with men in quite a few cases.

I am shaking my head at this. And, unfortunately, this means that trans women may have to be very aware what the extremist feminists are saying about men because some of those extremists are applying the same to trans women.

I really enjoyed the first article linked, it really does a good job of pointing out why feminism and I don't get along in some places. At this point in the movement, I wonder if they(yes, I'm making a sweeping
...

Extreme? Yes. Parody? Not really, considering the time period. It might be seen as a parody today, especially considering how extreme the original(non revised) book was in some areas. And this was something that just stuck with me during my development that I found interesting that has some correlation to the attitude in the linked article, it is in no way a take on modern feminism in the slightest.


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The only reason feminism is loaded with negativity is that opponents of equality have loaded negativity onto it until people who, based on their actual views, are ardently outspoken feminists, think that the word means something other than what it actually does, something about oppressing men, forcing women to become lesbians, stop shaving their legs, and use men's restrooms. Screw them. They don't get to redefine the word. It's important to fight their attempts to rebrand feminism by being proud of the word, unapologetic for identifying as one, and making sure people know it.

As for the infighting -- yes, unfortunately it exists. We can't ignore it, but it's completely unproductive to say that feminism as a philosophy, as opposed to the individuals and groups within the feminist movement who are doing bad things, is entirely tainted with anti-trans, anti-LGBTQ actions.

In addition, the whole 'equalitarian' thing is a tool used by anti-woman groups to say, "You just want to make things worse for men, we don't want to do that, we're the REAL feminists!" which obfuscates the truth of the matter. In order to make things equal for women in societies where men have an advantage, it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to take things away from men, to make men on average less well off than they were in the past, to make things harder for men on average, to make it so men are more likely to be passed over for a job in favor of a woman of equal ability than they were in the past, to make it so that the ratio of women's voices being heard to men's voices being heard is much higher than it was in the past. All of these things are necessary, and men who see this and recognize it for what it is aren't wrong. SOme of them are reacting to this saying that feminism is punishing men for being men, but they aren't providing any way of making the playing field even without removing the advantages that men have, because there isn't any. If from this point forward we treated everyone exactly equal regardless of their gender, there would STILL be an unequal outcome that favored men and disadvantaged women because of the accumulated advantages that men gained for centuries of dominance.

Men who are truly equality minded see that their advantages are unearned, and that it is unethical to refuse to give them up in order to make things equal for everyone.


I must admit, some of this I find baffling, as it is far outside my personal experience.

I am a feminist. I consider Transwomen to be real women without a doubt, as do all the feminists I personally know(unless some have secret opinions they aren't sharing, which is always possible).

Obviously my personal experience isn't evidence of anything larger in society, one way or another, but there it is.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

The only reason feminism is loaded with negativity is that opponents of equality have loaded negativity onto it until people who, based on their actual views, are ardently outspoken feminists, think that the word means something other than what it actually does, something about oppressing men, forcing women to become lesbians, stop shaving their legs, and use men's restrooms. Screw them. They don't get to redefine the word. It's important to fight their attempts to rebrand feminism by being proud of the word, unapologetic for identifying as one, and making sure people know it.

As for the infighting -- yes, unfortunately it exists. We can't ignore it, but it's completely unproductive to say that feminism as a philosophy, as opposed to the individuals and groups within the feminist movement who are doing bad things, is entirely tainted with anti-trans, anti-LGBTQ actions.

In addition, the whole 'equalitarian' thing is a tool used by anti-woman groups to say, "You just want to make things worse for men, we don't want to do that, we're the REAL feminists!" which obfuscates the truth of the matter. In order to make things equal for women in societies where men have an advantage, it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to take things away from men, to make men on average less well off than they were in the past, to make things harder for men on average, to make it so men are more likely to be passed over for a job in favor of a woman of equal ability than they were in the past, to make it so that the ratio of women's voices being heard to men's voices being heard is much higher than it was in the past. All of these things are necessary, and men who see this and recognize it for what it is aren't wrong. SOme of them are reacting to this saying that feminism is punishing men for being men, but they aren't providing any way of making the playing field even without removing the advantages that men have, because there isn't any. If from this point forward we treated everyone exactly equal regardless of their gender, there would...

I firmly disagree. Still, you have a right to your opinion.


It's funny, because the same exact things have been said about feminists since the days of the suffragettes. The words change, some bits of the rhetoric, but the general theme of "feminists are man-haters" runs straight and true for 100 years.
Who knows, maybe it's finally true.

I don't buy it.


I can't say that I am extremely well-versed in trans issues, but there has been a spat between some radical feminists and trans activists for a while now.

And now, for your delectation: radical feminists vs. trans activists.

Transcending the Norms of Gender: The Left Hand of Darkness by JULIAN VIGO

A Trans Response to Julian Vigo: These Are Not the Radicals You’re Looking For by DORIAN ADAMS

I didn't even bother to read them because I'm not a feminist, but I also remember there also being a flap with Julian Vigo suing Jacobin. I'll go look for that in a second.

That being said, based on sci-fi references in the titles, I have to say, Vigo's Le Guinism totally smacks the shiznit out of Adam's tired Star Wars crap.


Woops. Jacobin was sued by Catherine Brennan, not Julian Vigo.


One silly thing about the 'feminism is about hating men' narrative is that many feminists are men, it's not an ideology restricted to one loose grouping of people, any more than any other social justice movement is.

My favorite thing said in this discussion so far? Haladir's "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." bumper sticker. F**& Yeah!


Two even more silly things are the idea that trans women can't be feminists or that lesbians can't be feminists. And I wish I was making either of those up.

I'm waiting for someone to connect what I said about different realities and which one I deal with most often with what I've said on here. It should put what I've said in an entirely different light.


Duh. B+!&~ing on my country degrading social politics continues. I just read an article about Polish Ministry Of Foreign Affairs removing from their guide for Poles going abroad list of countries where being non-hetero might lead to imprisonment or execution... Reason? "Ministry cannot favor any social group or be suspected of aiding any worldview option"... WTF?! Warning people that they might get murdered by barbarians violating basic human rights is favoring someone's worldview? Seriously?


Drejk wrote:
Duh. B~@!~ing on my country degrading social politics continues. I just read an article about Polish Ministry Of Foreign Affairs removing from their guide for Poles going abroad list of countries where being non-hetero might lead to imprisonment or execution... Reason? "Ministry cannot favor any social group or be suspected of aiding any worldview option"... WTF?! Warning people that they might get murdered by barbarians violating basic human rights is favoring someone's worldview? Seriously?

Of course it is. It's favoring the worldview that LGTBQ people shouldn't be imprisoned or killed. That's a controversial worldview in many places.

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