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-- MIGHT CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR COUNCIL OF THIEVES CAMPAIGN --
Hey all, I've been playing Pathfinder Roleplaying Game for a while, this is my first time GM'ing, and it seems that I have a problem. I've been running my players through sewers, but every surprise I've prepared for them; the Cleric in the group would find it out easily with his +14 Perception bonus.
I let players create their own characters, and I found nothing wrong with the calculation, and it didn't seem as a huge value for me before the game. But, after I completed 2 sessions, and finished Part II (the sewers part), the value of +14 Perception seemed too high to me.
Here is how he obtains +14 Perception:
CN Half-Elf // 1 Cleric of Desna
Perception: 14
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1 Rank at Perception
+4 WIS Modifier
+3 Class Skill
+3 Skill Focus (Adaptability) -selected Perception -- Half-Elf Racial Trait
+1 Conspiracy Hunter:Perception -- Campaign Trait
+2 Keen Senses -- Half-Elf Racial Trait
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(by the way, players used High Fantasy, 20 Point Buy System while purchasing Ability Scores)
As a new GM I believe the players shouldn't know everything I prepare beforehand, but they just keep asking for Perception checks, one of my player is having his first table-top RPG, and one of them has played D&D 3.5 before and used to create well-optimized characters...This kind of metagaming is really boring me. And I also feel that this character has been optimized beyond reality.
I have a few ideas in mind.
-Should I talk with the player, stating that his Perception skill point is too high, that it is spoiling the fun for the game? (He could correct it by changing the Skill Focus to some other skill?)
-Should I write down their Perception skills, make the checks myself and tell them what they have seen/heard? This way, I could increase/decrease Check modifier because of the locational conditions.
-Should I include an "Invisibility Scroll" with some NPC's they encounter, such as Shanwen Shanwen, or the tiefling sorcerers in the Bastards of Erebus Lair?
Do you have any other suggestions?
Thanks in advance :)
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Yep, it’s legit. I don’t see any problem with it. It’s not metagaming either. He built a PC that is very good at one thing. Let him shine.
Your player wanted to be good at perception, and he's able to notice things that other people can't? And you don't like that he wanted to be good at something?
You can already add circumstantial penalties, bonuses, etc. And remember the -1 / 10' rule.
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Sounds like that party is primed to run afoul of a team of goblin rangers! >:D
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Your player wanted to be good at perception, and he's able to notice things that other people can't? And you don't like that he wanted to be good at something?
You can already add circumstantial penalties, bonuses, etc. And remember the -1 / 10' rule.
Umm, I guess you are right. I think I'm exaggerating this one.
Let me ask this way, when should get I the players to make Perception checks, what would be the optimal distance to hear the footsteps of a moving Otyugh in a complex, maze-like sewer system? Can you give me a calculation example?
I have this problem at the moment. The half elf druid in my party has a perception of about 20 and it's hard to justify him failing to notice anything. He can even spot a (moving) invisible creature on a 5+. I'm adapting but it does cause some problems for the game.
I would say definitely make all perception rolls for PCs if you decide you need to do something, that way he's never sure he didn't roll a one and gets the fun of spotting trouble in advance without losing the fun of not knowing whether or not there's trouble ahead. Don't bend things though; as the other posters have said he's deliberately sought to be ace at perception and unless it's actually breaking the game then it's fine. As Jiggy says though, a successful role doesn't give him X-Ray vision. He can't see around corners and even if he isn't surprised in the surprise round, he's a cleric and unlikely to win initiative...
Maxing perception is a pretty normal thing for a character to do. It's one of a very few skills that are pretty well always useful for any character.
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I have this problem at the moment. The half elf druid in my party has a perception of about 20 and it's hard to justify him failing to notice anything. He can even spot a (moving) invisible creature on a 5+. I'm adapting but it does cause some problems for the game.I would say definitely make all perception rolls for PCs if you decide you need to do something, that way he's never sure he didn't roll a one and gets the fun of spotting trouble in advance without losing the fun of not knowing whether or not there's trouble ahead. Don't bend things though; as the other posters have said he's deliberately sought to be ace at perception and unless it's actually breaking the game then it's fine. As Jiggy says though, a successful role doesn't give him X-Ray vision. He can't see around corners and even if he isn't surprised in the surprise round, he's a cleric and unlikely to win initiative...
Maxing perception is a pretty normal thing for a character to do. It's one of a very few skills that are pretty well always useful for any character.
Thanks for the input, will definitely try on my next game :)
As others are also right, but my situation was a complex, maze-like indoor map, so the character's vision and hearing was very limited. I wouldn't worry much if it was outdoors.
Try imagining a movie or TV series where there's a character who has superhuman perception. They get moments with "I'm awesome" music when they get to do something totally surprising using their ability.
Enjoy it, and then write up ideas for such a show/movie, and now you have some fun things for that character, which you can use in the game.
Make it fun. Get excited about your PCs.
Added after your most recent post:
The call is "at what distance can a moving ottyugh be distinguished from the other sounds of the sewers", and "at what point can you tell what direction it's coming from". Humans in real life aren't terribly good at directional hearing, and a sewer is going to be a complicated sound environment. By the rules - 'sound of a creature walking' is DC 10. An Ottyugh is big, so maybe DC 6, but the sound it makes is going to be splashing so not that different from the ambient sounds, maybe -5 for that so DC 11. If the players are moving and talking this is going to drown out other sounds quite substantially, at least another -5 maybe more (hence the value of periodically coming to a stop so the big eared fellow can listen). So, that's a base of 16, -1 for each 10'. So your cleric has a pretty good chance of hearing 'something big splashing towards you' at 50' distance. If the Ottyugh is trying to be quiet then personally I'd add it's stealth skill to the difficulty (which won't be adding much, but maybe this Ottyugh has maxed out its stealth), and if it's moving slowly then it's going to make a lot less noise. Unless it's deliberately seeking out the characters it's probably ambling slowly (although it might be singing) so I'd add a bit more difficulty.
If you take say some goblins who are stalking the party then their base DC is 14 (small critters as opposed to big ones), -5 for 'ambient camouflage', -5 for party moving and talking makes 24. With the -1 for 10' your cleric has about a 1/3 chance of hearing them before they get within 50'. (Unless they're actually trying to sneak up on the PCs in which case the odds are decidedly against him).
This is only one way of crunching the numbers, it's consistent with itself and my style of play. Others would object to whopping great -5 penalties
Right. He “can track a hawk on a cloudy day”. Let them have fun. It’s a game.
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Try imagining a movie or TV series where there's a character who has superhuman perception. They get moments with "I'm awesome" music when they get to do something totally surprising using their ability.
Enjoy it, and then write up ideas for such a show/movie, and now you have some fun things for that character, which you can use in the game.
Make it fun. Get excited about your PCs.
Well, since he is a cleric of Desna, Desna might have been giving him some kind of Perception beyond human levels. I will look through some supernatural shows like Heroes, Misfits and Supernatural for ideas. Love your advice! Thanks :)
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Added after your most recent post:
The call is "at what distance can a moving ottyugh be distinguished from the other sounds of the sewers", and "at what point can you tell what direction it's coming from". Humans in real life aren't terribly good at directional hearing, and a sewer is going to be a complicated sound environment. By the rules - 'sound of a creature walking' is DC 10. An Ottyugh is big, so maybe DC 6, but the sound it makes is going to be splashing so not that different from the ambient sounds, maybe -5 for that so DC 11. If the players are moving and talking this is going to drown out other sounds quite substantially, at least another -5 maybe more (hence the value of periodically coming to a stop so the big eared fellow can listen). So, that's a base of 16, -1 for each 10'. So your cleric has a pretty good chance of hearing 'something big splashing towards you' at 50' distance. If the Ottyugh is trying to be quiet then personally I'd add it's stealth skill to the difficulty (which won't be adding much, but maybe this Ottyugh has maxed out its stealth), and if it's moving slowly then it's going to make a lot less noise. Unless it's deliberately seeking out the characters it's probably ambling slowly (although it might be singing) so I'd add a bit more difficulty.
If you take say some goblins who are stalking the party then their base DC is 14 (small critters as opposed to big ones), -5 for 'ambient camouflage', -5 for party moving and talking makes 24. With the -1 for 10' your cleric has about a 1/3 chance of hearing them before they get within 50'. (Unless they're actually trying to sneak up on the PCs in which case the odds are decidedly against him).
This is only one way of crunching the numbers, it's consistent with itself and my style of play. Others would object to whopping great -5 penalties
Thank you for your explanation, it has been most informative. I will try to prepare the Perception checks beforehand with this way.
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Don't try to fight a PC's strength...USE IT. He's got a great perception score. So he's going to perceive stuff. He's traded other abilities for this. I'm much more put off by someone who has maximized his ability to trip or some other combat mechanic exploit.
Guy's really perceptive. So give him stuff to perceive. Some of which is real, and he needs to perceive it to be valuable to the party.
He sees the tripwire in advance, i.e. the old trope from every show or movie with a ranger/explorer/grizzled veteran type that encounters a tripwire.
He sees the coiled cobra behind the rock that will just leave if not startled by the party first.
He sees faint tracks that turn out to be nothing. He sees an Invisible Stalker in town...but it's stalking something totally unrelated to what you're doing and soon departs.
He finds a secret door, but behind it is just an alcove with a tea service...or the next plot hook!
Hehe, yes, never had that in mind, your advice is most useful, thanks :)
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Right. He “can track a hawk on a cloudy day”. Let them have fun. It’s a game.The quote from The Princess Bride wins the thread. :)
Just one thing, though. Perception isn't a class skill for clerics, so it should only be +11.
Actually, the Campaign trait(Conspiracy Hunter) makes the skill a class skill. But thanks for your help.
Right. He “can track a hawk on a cloudy day”. Let them have fun. It’s a game.The quote from The Princess Bride wins the thread. :)
Just one thing, though. Perception isn't a class skill for clerics, so it should only be +11.
I believe the trait makes it a class skill.
Edit: Ninja'd!
I agree with all the comments here, but I also empathize with Wittkyrd. While he has sacraficed alot to be good a percieving things, and should be rewarded for that it isn't an "auto-win button".
For example: Ambush predators live/die by ambushing their pray, so it would be perfectly ligit for them to take 10 or even 20 on their stealth rolls given the time to do so. Reaccuring enemies will know this as well and may take actions to mitigate it.
Circumstance bonuses besides the distance to the source of the sound or the stealthing creature may be appropriate such as sound sources or direct light sources like sun blindness out doors.
Just remember that hidden things (traps, hiding creatures, etc) must be actively searched for (costing a move action to make the Perception check).
There's also an initial reactive Perception check opposing Stealth to notice a hiding creature and avoid surprise, just like there's a reactive Perception check opposing Sleight of Hand to notice a pickpocket.
EDIT: To the OP, don't forget that in ambush situations the cleric isn't a detector for the entire group. If a group of monsters are trying to ambush the party and not all of the PCs succeed at Perception checks to be aware of the enemy, then you have a surprise round where only aware PCs and the ambushers get to take an action.
I have this problem at the moment. The half elf druid in my party has a perception of about 20 and it's hard to justify him failing to notice anything. He can even spot a (moving) invisible creature on a 5+. I'm adapting but it does cause some problems for the game.
If the invisible creature is 10-ft away or less. At 11-ft it's a 6+, at 21-ft it's a 7+ etc. Range is your friend vs high perception.
I've always liked the idea of Max Ranks = 1/2 Level (min. 1)
My PC wizard in our 14th level game is packing a +37 perception that seems to have given the DM some trouble. The reality is though that ultimately all it means in most instances is that she's never surprised. That doesn't usually help the rest of the party. It also doesn't mean you can't use stealth against the party, but it does mean that only truly stealthy foes should be able to pull it off. It is entirely possible to play up the PC's skill while still using the surprise attack on occasion.
Given the stealth mod boosters (range, concealment, shadow gear, cloaks of elven kind) it isn't that difficult to set up ambushes for those truly stealthy foes. A couple sessions ago the wizard in question ate a death attack fro man assassin she never saw until he shot - an assassin several levels lower.
I've always liked the idea of Max Ranks = 1/2 Level (min. 1)
I hated that rule.
Uh, well, see your problem is that you're letting him stack 3 different trait bonuses.
It says in the CRB that trait bonuses don't stack. Unless his skill focus racial trait counts as a feat bonus instead of a trait bonus. Then it's just two.
Unless its house ruled, page 326 in the APG says that "you may not select more than one from the same list of traits" and your list has 2 racial traits.
Not that it will help that much
I dont think that it is too high at all. He built a good character. Your challenge is to make things that can counter him.
Also, trait bonuses don't stack.
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Wisdom and class bonuses are fine
Skill focus is a feat and grants an untyped bonus, stacks
Conspiracy hunter is a trait bonus, first one, stacks
Keen senses is a racial bonus, first one, stacks
It's all fine, look it up.
Also: What's the point of putting any effort into a character at all if the DM is just going to invent as many penalties as he can to make you average again? You're teaching him that the harder he tries the worse you're going to make it on him. Why not let him be really good at it and get some respect from the other players? The alternative is they begin seeing your new negatives and understand their mediocre perception checks are totally worthless, and now the high perception guy has suddenly made everything worse for everyone?
Let the players be good at stuff.
Unless its house ruled, page 326 in the APG says that "you may not select more than one from the same list of traits" and your list has 2 racial traits.
Not that it will help that much
The Half Elf Adaptability is actually a Bonus Feat, not a Trait
So he's only +1 too high from the 2 actual Traits
Unless its house ruled, page 326 in the APG says that "you may not select more than one from the same list of traits" and your list has 2 racial traits.
Not that it will help that much
The Half Elf Adaptability is actually a Bonus Feat, not a Trait
So he's only +1 too high from the 2 actual Traits
Where are you guys getting your information? I don't see anything that doesnt stack per RAW.
What two traits? I only see one the conspiracy one...
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Instead of forcing them to call out their perception checks, just say they're assumed to be on the look out for things. If they're about to ambushed, have them all make a perception check. Those that fail are surprised. Instead of searching every door for traps, have a marching order established with who enters first. If there is a trap there have the rogue make a perception. If he fails, then the whoever was the one that enters first will get hit with the trap.
This makes the game much less tedious and enjoyable, lets the player know you aren't trying to cheat them, and doesn't take away from highly perceptive characters.
The player is not autowinning the combat. He just avoid beibg surprised. A Diviner does that, and much more.
Nowhere in the book says monsters "have" to be ambushing the PC every time, to all parties. And I'm quite sure being ambushed does not add fun for the players, so I dont see the point to punish a player that decided to optimize Perception instead of, say, Save DC or att/damage
Let me ask this way, when should get I the players to make Perception checks, what would be the optimal distance to hear the footsteps of a moving Otyugh in a complex, maze-like sewer system? Can you give me a calculation example?
Measure distance from Otyugh to PC through the maze, not straight line. Perpection checks are -1 per 10'. Until the PC has line-of-sight the creature is invisible +20 to DC.
Let's just say they can detect the creature out to 120' maximum, that's two rounds worth of double moves for most parties. There are maximum detection distances listed for outdoor terrains in the core rulebook.
So, 120' means +12 to the DC of perception check. Let's assume take 10 (or a roll of 10 if you prefer) for the otyugh to hide in its lair. So, 10 +10 stealth, +20 for invisible (no line-of-sight), +12 for distance. DC 52 perception check; that means even if the PC rolls 20 +14 perception after distance modifier--34 total. Nope, no otyughs here.
Let's assume the otyugh is out wandering around looking for food. Now take 10, +2 stealth (not in lair), +20 for being invisible (no line-of-sight), -10 for moving, distance +12--DC 34. He'll need that 20 to pull it off.
If he fails, I half the distance and try again (its an old 3.5 rule). Half the distance would change the DC to 28. The PC would have a decent chance. If he fails this, the encounter begins without warning when the otyugh rounds the corner (or vice versa).
Also, don't forget that the otyugh gets a chance to detect the party. Also, in such conditions the party may have a torch lighting their way, so the otyugh may well get a chance to spot the light before he rounds the corner.
What the hell? Lack of line of sight is not the same as invisibility. That's absolutely wrong.
What the hell? Lack of line of sight is not the same as invisibility. That's absolutely wrong.
So, you're telling me that invisibility confers additional benefits besides making one invisible? First, I've heard of that.
If you prefer another way, hearing a moving creature is DC 10 (PFRPG 102), which is amazingly enough the same number you get if you were to use perception to notice a visible creature DC 0, add +20 for invisible, and subtract 10 for moving at full speed.
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Only other things to consider that come to mind are other ambient sounds, possibly some penalty for the acoustics between monster and PC, and possibly the surface the otyugh is walking on.
Personally, I'd give an ongoing sound (like maybe walking) a "bad conditions" modifier due to it blending in with the flow of the sewage. On the other hand, I'd (probably) give a sudden noise a "favorable conditions" penalty due to echoing (or maybe treat that as cancelling out the unfavorable conditions and call it a wash).
I presume the +2 stealth is looked up and includes all relevant otyugh-specific modifiers.
That's correct. Otyughs are Stealth +2(+10 in lair). Makes the examples kinda interesting. I didn't throw in other environmental modifiers, didn't want to muddy the example, but they could be applicable as well.
I also didn't include perception via olfactory senses. I'd imagine that its lair would reek but when you're in a sewer, just how much worse would it have to be to detect it.
The rules say that to notice the stench of rotting garbage is a -10 perception check, but in a sewer. I guess by the book at 120' from the otyugh lair, it would be a DC 2 perception check, modified by terrible conditions (competing smells) would still only be DC 7. Also how much of a clue do you really give by saying you smell rotting garbage in a sewer anyway.
Adaptability: Half-elves receive Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Keen Senses: Half-elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Conspiracy Hunter: Choose one of the following skills: Bluff,
Diplomacy, Knowledge (local), Perception, Sense Motive,
or Stealth. You gain a +1 trait bonus on this skill and it is
always considered a class skill for you.
So after doing the math here is what I come to:
1 rank + 3 for class skill = 4
Add +4 due to wisdom mod = 8
Adaptability: +3 = 11
Keen senses +2 = 13
Conspiracy hunter +1 = 14
This is done with RAW. This all stacks. One feat, one trait, and one racial bonus. I have no issue with this. Those who do need to look at the rules again.
I have a ranger who if I had taken the skill focus into perception he would have had a +15 at level 1. I ended up going a different route with survival and perception being the highest but still have a +12 in the skill. He is a ranger (warden archetype) and rightfully has his best skills to complement this.
Considering the fact the otyugh is in a sewer the modifier for walls should also come in to play. At +10 per foot of thickness, this would really explain why it's so hard to navigate in places like sewers and caves, where sound echoes.
What the hell? Lack of line of sight is not the same as invisibility. That's absolutely wrong.So, you're telling me that invisibility confers additional benefits besides making one invisible? First, I've heard of that.
If you prefer another way, hearing a moving creature is DC 10 (PFRPG 102), which is amazingly enough the same number you get if you were to use perception to notice a visible creature DC 0, add +20 for invisible, and subtract 10 for moving at full speed.
Invisibility is a specific effect that renders you unable to be seen even when in plain sight. That is why it provides you with a +20 bonus.
Lack of line of sight is not the same as invisibility.
Being out of line of sight simple gives one total cover, it doesn't really give any bonuses to stealth checks, with the exception of the 'through a wall' modifier I mentioned in my previous post.