Thalin you can't take a feat without meeting the prereqs, and dragon style requires improved unarmed strike.
PS:The build was not bad, but the fact the GM of a the synthesis did not catch any of the errors, and got mad when we pointed them out is telling. In any event I do like your build. If I ever build a summoner I will look at it for pointers.
PS2:If there is an ability called "Dragon Strike", and I just overlooked it I apologize in advance.
|
Yep, I listed Unarmed Strike on the fear list. The actual order is:
1) Unarmed Strike
3) Dragon Style
5) Steely Resolve
7) Power Attack (yes, it is verified you can take even if only your eidolon gives you that strength, no I don't feel like slugging through the giant synth thread to find it)
9) Extra Evolution
And for the Eidilon:
1) Toughness
3) Skill focus: Knowledge (Local)
6) Skill focus: Knowledge (The Planes)
10) Skill focus: Knowledge (Geography)
Separated off, the Eidilon (who took 4 knowledge skills as his class skills) is worth 8 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 3 (focus) -2 (int) for a +12, not amazing, but there for you when you need it.
Hope that clarifies everything; sorry for any minor mistakes, build is mostly correct, but was recreating it "on the fly" while bored at work :).
Again, it's not any specific element that is broken; it's the sum of the parts; best AC, pally-like saves (better on reflex usually), bard plus spell list, and incomparable stat block (this is like a 70-point build). And even good out-of-combat utility (Solid diplomacy skill, knowledges "covered").
|
|
Sure:
Will: +7 +3 (magic items) +2 (shield effect; attached to Eidilon) +3 (Wisdom)... +15
Ref: +3 +3 +4 +2 = +12 (Evasion)
Fort: +3 +3 +2 +4 = +12
All +4 (yeah steely soul) most of the time.
OK; math was off, I may have had the ioun stone for the missing +1 as well. But with just the cloak there's the math, still, 19/16/16 is at least on par and probably better than a pally. With 20 Cha at this level and +3 cloak, they would be:
Will: +3 +1 (expected Wis bonus) +5 Cha +3 cloak = +12
Ref: +3 +1 +5 +3 = +12
Fort: +7 +3 (expected con with belt) +5 +3 = +18
So would win Fort slighty; and lose out on other two.
We did play incorrectly; I thought you could actually summon the Eidilon separately if you wanted to. All right, losing the free knowledge skill pool; a shame :).
And again, sorry for any minor tweak-offs; I wish I had spent putting it together for this effect. But the synth plays as advertised; an invincible, world-wrecking doombot. Mages / Witches are squishy, fighty types have bad saves, about the same damage output, and nowhere close to the options. The synth can do everything and survive most attaks better than others: THAT is their broken state; all classes should rely on other classes to survive at least at some point (the Synth has no level where it "sucks", unlike Mage-types or fighty-types).
Also, the base is a 33 point build at first level, and scales up quickly (as listed, it's in the 70 range). And that's if you only had a 15 point build to begin.
Mage types don't suck either at any level. You just have to keep them out of melee.
The synthesist's eidolon receives no skills or feats. Those are taken in error.
They don't? Where does it say that? Genuinely curious since I don't know much about summoners in general.
|
|
It says it in the "fused eidolon" (looked it up).
One can argue no class sucks by that logic (and that's not wholly untrue). Mages have vulnerability; usually terrible saves (especially the most important, fort), mediocre hp (though can often dump-stat up con to shore this up); and melee / archery they have no AC "to speak of". They can somewhat shore up these things; prepared, but then they are not doing anything. And they have limited spells; they need to know situations.
Fighting types can have good saves (Pally) or good damage output (Fighter / Ranger / Barb). Often they can sacrifice one for the other; more balanced stats / feats can get you saves, but you lose damage. They also lack flexibility.
The Synth can have good save bonuses for no better reason than to have them (plenty of stat points to burn thanks to Eidilon suit). And they get a "joker"; evolution surge and its lesser counterpart can be energy immunity, improved attacks, major skill bonuses to any skill, and spell resistance, all in one nice package. They cast some of the best spells in the game (summons, black tentacles, haste) on level or BEFORE the Mage (4th level casting haste). And while min-maxed sacrifices 2 stats, you get no disad for it (you still have the best CMD in the game).
My main issue with the archetype is that it removes the main balancing factor of the class: the summoner itself. All of those things that would cause the eidolon to go away were specifically added as balancing factors for the class. Now they're mostly gone. Same deal with the item sharing, another primary balancing factor of the class.
|
|
I guess "broken" in this case is harder to define. Their defenses are nearly unstoppable; Cheapy says it best, they lose that "squishy caster" on the side and poor saves that make the regular summoner powerful-but-not-overpowered. Their touch AC is not great; but 14 AC is actually better than most "tank" melees get. And when you have saves and AC "off the charts" for their level (how many monsters @ CR: 13 can consistently hit AC 38 or get past those saves), and couple it with flexibility (can always D Door to safety / Evolution Surge anything), this is where it starts to get out f hand.
The classes you listed are 3.5 holdouts; broken in a more obvious way (stupid early damage output). As we've discussed earlier; Summoners are "merely" on par or even slightly below DPRs... but then, thanks to pounce / flight (and even blindsight on demand), they are much more likely to be able to do this damage.
So I define "broken" mostly as "invincible while still being one of the largest damage threats on the board". You CAN deal with them, but the things that can would wipe out any ordinary party members. Even in their worst case (sleeping) this guy has good enough hp to take some hits, ddoor / go Invis, and use Summon Eidilon to "suit up" quickly.
Whew! So there are different dimensions here; one is being able to god-nuke everything out of existence with damage numbers that make our inner Timmy jump for joy; this guy does not do that. But needing severe DM fiat to challenge at all? That brings a class to the overpowered level for me.
On a related note, I wonder how control summoned creature interacts with a synthesist and his fused eidolon. It still counts as a summoned creature. Considering the fused entity has a single set of actions per round, would that mean the summoner can't take a standard action to regain control (since his opponent is using up the entity's standard actions by making the eidolon act as desired)?
I find synthesists take the general complexity flaw of the summoner class and magnify it exponentially. It seems like more than half of the summoners I've seen in home games and PFS are in need of a serious numbers audit. If that is considered broken, then they are broken. They otherwise don't seem to be so overbalancing that games are ruined by them... although they do have a tendency to cause enough mechanical headaches for both GMs and players to suck the fun from some games I've played.
My main issue with the archetype is that it removes the main balancing factor of the class: the summoner itself. All of those things that would cause the eidolon to go away were specifically added as balancing factors for the class. Now they're mostly gone. Same deal with the item sharing, another primary balancing factor of the class.
Personally, I always thought that the item sharing that summoners have to deal with is horrible. I played one summoner up to (and past) level 20, and I'm never going to do it again because of the saving throw issues caused by having only one Cloak of Resistance. Having the items combined actually brings some much needed balance to the class. Balance as in, not having your primary class feature continually get one shot or banished for a day by Unholy Word.
Matrix the one item rule does not allow both of them to benefit from the item. It was put in place so that both of them would share one slot. The creature that is wearing the item is still the only that benefits from it.
The synthesist has an additional bonus to will saves vs enchantment.
Makes him very difficult to control. If he fails, then he's in the same boat as anyone else.
Well, it's not quite the same boat. The fused synthesist has one set of actions. Control Summoned Monster lets you direct the target's actions. Normally the original controller can take standard actions to try and regain control. Since the caster of Control Summoned Monster is controlling the actions of the fused synthesist, it wouldn't have spare standard actions to try and reassert control.
|
The Synthesist is great not because it's the most awesome awesomeness to ever exist, but because it lets you play any creature you can imagine.
I mean, you can build basically any physical form, and it probably won't suck too bad. It also lets you do cool stuff like instead of playing that same old dwarven fighter with the big hammer, you can play the Dwarf who was too physically weak to wield the family hammer. So in order to uphold his clan's honor he learns to summon an ancestor spirit to surround and protect him in battle.
Helgen Stonecrusher
LN Dwarf (Stonesinger)
Synthesist Summoner 6
1st: Summoner; Cantrips, Fused Eidolon, Fused Link, Summon Monster I 5/Day, Power Attack (Eidolon), Traits (Reactionary, Heirloom Weapon (Earth Breaker))
2nd: Summoner; Bond Senses
3rd: Summoner; Summon Monster II, Furious Focus (Eidolon)
4th: Summoner; Shielded Meld, +1 Cha
5th: Summoner; Eidolon Con +1, Summon Monster III 6/Day, Dodge
6th: Summoner; Devotion, Maker's Jump
Str: 9/24
Dex: 7/14
Con: 20/14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 16
Init: +0/+4 (-2/+1 Dex, +2 trait) Speed: 20 ft./30 ft.; Fly 30 ft. Darkvision
HP: 78/40 (6d8+30/5d10+10) AC: 30 (+4 Armor, -2/+2 Dex, +10 NA, +2 Shield, +1 Dodge, +1 Deflection) +4 Against Giants
Fort: +7/+6 (+2 base, +5/+2 Con, +2 Circ) Ref: +0/+6 (+2 base, -2/+2 Dex, +2 Circ) Will: +7/+9 (+5 base, +2 Wis, +2 Circ)
+2 against poison, spells, Evasion, +4 on will against enchantments, Resist Fire 10
BAB: +4/+5 CMB: +3/+12 (+4/+5 BAB, -1/+7 Str) CMD: 11/24 (-1/+7 Str, -2/+2 Dex, +4/+5 BAB) +4 v bull rush, trip
Skills: +2 Appraise,
Evolutions 9 pts: Limbs Arms (free), Limbs Legs (free), Claws Arms (free), Improved NA II (2), Increase Str II (4), Flight (2), Resist Fire (1)
Spells (CL 6):
0- Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Guidance, Light, Mending, Message
1st 5/Day- Feather Fall, Mage Armor, Protection From Evil, Rejuvenate Eidolon (Lesser)
2nd 4/Day- Evo. Surge (Lesser), Haste, Invisibility, See Invisibility
Attack w/ PA (+1 vs Orc or Goblin):
Earth Breaker +13 (2d6+16+2d6 x3)
w/ Enlarge Person
AC: 28
Earth Breaker +13 (3d6+18+2d6 x3)
w/ Enlarge Person, Haste
AC: 29
Earth Breaker +13/+11 (3d6+18+2d6 x3)
I mean your stats are better, and it's more fun. But in the end you still get to play a dwarf with a big hammer without being left in the dust by other optimized builds. Synthesists are only overpowered in groups of noobs.
Also, a note to all you quadrupedal Synthies out there, what are you using to pick stuff up? Without arms, you lack something very important, HANDS! Then there's the whole monstrous appearance thing people have already mentioned. Yeah the town guards might need to roll 20s to hit you, but if you're some freaky looking quadrupedal nightmare they might still be tempted to try.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there is a rule somewhere that forbids using natural attacks and unarmed attacks simultaneously, but I don't remember where.
Monks are not allowed to use Flurry of Blows with natural attacks or in addition to natural attacks out of the box.
I do not know if the Synthesist is broken, but it re-introduced one of the more crappy designs of 3.0/3.5: ability score substitution. That one has been a mess for most of D&D3, forcing huge erratas and revisions, and I was really glad when I saw that the developers of Pathfinder were sensible enough to get rid of it. Now it is back, and for me that is not a good thing. It is a messy mechanic, error-prone, easy to abuse, prone to marginalise those classes that actually rely on the abilities in question and simply not clever in a game that heavily relies on ability modifiers for mechanical effects. Luckily, it is only one archetype of one class so far, and I really hope that it stays this way. Of course, that archetype is a secondary caster with a good spell list that heavily treads on the toes of martial classes (again - as if there was need for that).
In my opinion, it should have been a mechanic akin to Wildshape. Much cleaner, much easier to balance, much more in line with the rest of the rules system. I believe that using a unified rule system for similar effects is much better design and facilitates understanding of the rules and thus makes for smoother gameplay. Now we have an exception to these normally used rules, and it creates a lot of headache and many erroneously built characters.
|
|
I agree with the wildshape mechanic; it not only does the substitute scoring, it does it on a level that is unmatched by the old-school Druid/Polymorph problems. They needed it to scale normally; and the AC to be a smaller modifier. Base eidilons suffer in the save department and have relatively low hp; base summoners are usually soft and squishy. By eliminating the weaknesses of each, and giving a best of both worlds stat set, you make a class that is terribly difficult to beat.
Matrix the one item rule does not allow both of them to benefit from the item. It was put in place so that both of them would share one slot. The creature that is wearing the item is still the only that benefits from it.
Isn't that exactly what I was saying? I was talking about how summoners are horrible at high levels because they have to split their items with their eidolons. Sythesists use the same items in both natural and eidolon forms, so they aren't as gimped. Some people think this is overpowered, but I think it is the way things should be.
I agree with the wildshape mechanic; it not only does the substitute scoring, it does it on a level that is unmatched by the old-school Druid/Polymorph problems. They needed it to scale normally; and the AC to be a smaller modifier. Base eidilons suffer in the save department and have relatively low hp; base summoners are usually soft and squishy. By eliminating the weaknesses of each, and giving a best of both worlds stat set, you make a class that is terribly difficult to beat.
Hmm, I don't know. If Synthesists used the "wildshape mechanic" then I think it would make them stronger to the point that they really would be broken.
Even if they only gained stat bonuses equal to their eidolons physical stats - 14(which would give them some stat penalties), they'd still be able to get some pretty high stats where it matters. A biped eidolon synthesist with the increased strength evolution and a minmaxed strength stat could have a Str of 24 at first level. This is far, far more powerful than current sythesists, and people already complain that they are powerful! Sure, this is a worst case example, and the synthesist probably wouldn't have good mental stats, but this doesn't hurt him too much since he isn't a primary caster.
This would also make the class much more appealing for something like a fighter to dip into, since it would give them free abilities (or maybe even stat bonuses) with no real penalty. At least now it would drop their strength to 14-16.
So yea, I think the current method, while it isn't ideal, is the best that Paizo could do while preserving the eidolon's designable nature.
|
To start off, I'd like to mention that I skipped page 2 of this thread in case this has already been mentioned, but the synthesist is actually weaker than the normal summoner in what is, in our games, one of the most important aspects- action economy. When you are fused with the eidolon, you have his physical stats and add his HP to yours, and in most cases you as a synthesist are not going to be doing much more in melee combat than the eidolon would be doing by itself, other than lasting longer. The base summoner can have his eidolon go do it's thing while he controls the battlefield with the plethora of amazing battlefield control spells that are on the summoner's list, while the synthesist is basically just being a dumb brute charging into the fray. Being a synth. also makes you split your feats up since the eidolon does not get it's own with this archetype, further pigeon-holing you in that regard.
Yes, being a syth. allows you to completely game the point-buy system and have over-the-top mental stats by gimping your physical stats, but if you do this to an extreme (ie. having a 7 in str, dex, and con) then you are asking to get ambushed while sleeping when you aren't fused, your initiative sucks due to bad dex, your perception isn't getting boosted by the "skilled" evolution, and your HP/AC is perilously low, allowing you to be taken out in only a few attacks.
|
SleepybotMonster, a synthesist doesn't use the save progression of it's Eidolon when fused. It's saves are those of its class, so bad progression for Fort and Ref and good progression for Will.I haven't seen any evidence for this ruling. The summoner gets the eidolon's AC and BAB. Where are saving throws singled out?
Saves are not included in the list of eidolon stats the synthesist retains. BAB and AC are specifally called out as being used.
|
|
What if I defined my eidolon as looking human?
Seriously! The synthesist I am putting together for PFS is defining his eidolon to look almost exactly like himself, only wearing celestrial scale armor.
Have no fear, from the SRD:
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature.
I'm actually using an angelic theme, I just don't have my wings yet.
Angelic is an explicitly allowed theme.
|
|
I would think that "always appears as some sort of fantastical creature" would generally mean that the eidolon would never be mistaken for a human, or anything normal.
As a celestial being? Sure. Standard race/creature? No. Must be fantastical. Always, in fact.
If a real elf were to walk down the street in front of my office, that would be pretty fantastical.
|
|
Nothing that could be explained away as normal though. No human with pointed horns (tiefling) or red scaled skin (also tiefling-or whatever now replaces fire genasi)or blue or green or ... damn there's a lot of "fantastical elements" that can be explained away in a cosmopolitan setting.
In a world where wizards can alter reality, there is nothing that cannot be explained away.
There are, however, two indisputable facts.
1. Eidolons can be medium sized humanoids.
2. Fantastical is not a defined term in Pathfinder.
Given those two facts, any limits places on an eidolon's appearance represents an arbitrary line drawn in the sand. This remains true until an official ruling is issued.
Personally, i was inspired by tony stark to create an 'iron man' synthasist. it'd basically look like a bulked out suit of armour and grant me tons of resistances, high ability scores, and the power of flight. all that's holding me back is that i don't know how to do the energy blasts... i'm thinking something like a wand of scorching ray or the like.
|
|
Well, they have a supernatural "feel". It even says in the text they would not pass as a standard race, so they can't. This is officially in the text of the Eidilon.
You can have an elf Eidilon, but those who view it will find it just a little odd, like it's not from this world. Also, those long claws he comes pre-equipped with might be a give-away that he isn't just a normal elf :).
Target CMD / tripping? Really? Level 10 Str 30 large-sized quadruped, and you're going to try to trip? Also, my favorite Synths are dwarves (you have build points to spare so Cha 14 or even 16 is no big deal; meanwhile it shores up any "saves" weakness").
Here, let's build out. Criticize the build, aside from "min-max" cheese (this is an attempt to prove overpowered). 15 points
Level 10 Dwarven Synthesist (Quadraped):
Str: 7 (30) - -4
Int: 13 - 3
Wis: 16 - 5
Dex: 7 (18) - -4
Con: 16 (19) - same con, both forms - 5
Chr: 16 (18 with +2 cha headband, 2 from levels) - 10Evolution: Improved Armor (3), Pounce, Arms, Claws (twice), Large, Wings
Casts Mage Armor twice / day and extended Greater Magic Weapon once per day (+1 all attacks)
It has toughness as a feat, plus lots of skill focuses in knowledges
Skills: Fly - +17
Perception: +25 (has trait for bonus)
Diplomacy: +10
UMD: +10
Acrobatics +10
AC: 12 + 8 (level natural) +1 (size natural - size penalty) +2 (shield effect) +4 (Mage armor) +6 (evolutins) +4 (dexterity) +1 ring = 38.
HP: Dwarf - 8 + 5.5 * 9 + 4*10 = 97 + Eidilon temp (6.5 * 8 + 5 * 8 = 92 temp).
Saves (-4 if Dwarf bonus does not apply)
Will: +17 Ref: +15 Fort: +15
CMD: 10 +1 (size) +4 (dex) +10 (Str) +8 (BAB) = 33, +6 vs trip +4 vs grapple
Feats: Steely Resolve, Extra Evolution (2), Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Strike, Power AttackAttacks (5, and can pounce): all +15 (before non-day buffs, after power attack... usually much higher). Compare with fighter, who will typically be +18 by now after same.
Damage: d8 (or d6) + 23 + 2d6 each. First hit each round does +5 damage if charged.Magic items: Rod of extend (2)
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 cloak of resistance
+2 headband of charisma
Amulet of might fist (electric attack)
Miscellaneous wands (lesser restore, a few restore Eidilon, honeyed tongue, etc)And before you ask, it has been clarified Synths can take extra evolution. Dragon stance lets him pounce through friendlies; with advanced...
does greater magic fang stack with amulet of might fist? aren't they both the same enhancement bonus? In fact isn't amulet of mighty fist made by casting magic fang?
Hey DMs!
Here's an easy way to make a synthesist a much more manageable class in your games.
"The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist." Take that bold part out.
Then, give them 1/2 the armor progression on the chart.
That should eliminate some of the issues with stats. With this setup, their strength stays modest, around the same as a beefy barbarian and their AC stays reasonable.
Additionally, while their temp HP does not recover over night, cannot be healed by anyone besides the summoner, and does not come back if you resummon the eidolon, if this is still too much of a tanking buffer for you, halving this may also be a nice, easy way to round off the character.
Without the ridiculous size changes, Synthesist becomes a much more balanced class.