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We have a 15-point buy game active and a Synthesist. I'm curious where it's going to go as, while I don't want to discourage players from optimizing things, I don't want imbalance by reducing other characters to stand-bys. So far, there's nothing tipping off my "DM senses."
linkified
I stopped reading when someone said a barbarian would get trashed by an Synthesist. There were few people actually trying to help you, Joah, on that thread. You're opening post did not sit well either, as it starts with "I'll never by Paizo's products again if they keep this us." That is a huge thing to consider because of one archtype that isn't as strong as people would like to think.
We have a 15-point buy game active and a Synthesist. I'm curious where it's going to go as, while I don't want to discourage players from optimizing things, I don't want imbalance by reducing other characters to stand-bys. So far, there's nothing tipping off my "DM senses."
** spoiler omitted **
If that synthesist is multiclassing and focusing on rays rather than deathpounces, I don't think you have much to worry about. Summoners loose a *lot* when they multiclass. Sure, he will probably have pretty good defenses, but I can't imagine that he'll be as scary as either a pure synthesist or a pure sorcerer.
Of course, there is a chance he's going for some sort of combo that I haven't thought of...
Lastly, it’s looked on as a spellcasting class, but it usurps the Tank role. Thus the pally and Fighter will feel left out.
In my experience, the synthesist will typically spend less time casting during combat than the paladin.
Typically, he will be filling a role other than caster: depending on build that role can be dps, tank, or support.
True. Which is exactly my point. In theory it’s a spellcasting class, in practice it’s usually a tank. The party already has two tanks. At this level, a summoner will outdo them, esp if all the rules are not followed with care.
In my experience, the synthesist will typically spend less time casting during combat than the paladin.
Typically, he will be filling a role other than caster: depending on build that role can be dps, tank, or support.
True. Which is exactly my point. In theory it’s a spellcasting class, in practice it’s usually a tank. The party already has two tanks. At this level, a summoner will outdo them, esp if all the rules are not followed with care.
I tried building my summoner so that he was a bit spellcasting focused. In practice, it doesn't work very well. You have to devote too many spells to healing and quickly summoning your eidolon at low levels, and at high levels your spell DCs are too low. The only really useful things a summoner can do (aside from healing or buffing his eidolon) is cast haste or teleportation spells.
A synthesist makes even worse of a support spellcaster since he doesn't have two actions per round. I would consider Paladins to be better as support casters since they at least can heal the party and have their 'share smite' (which is one of the few things in the game I consider truely broken ;) )
I would say that any class has the potential to being deemed broken. It depends on who is playing and building the character.
Paladins are not always hated. The only issue is when the GM and the player are not on the same page with what is/is not allowed. Once you get past that things are gravy.
In any event I would suggest go over the eidolon again if it is doing all those things you said it was doing in your first post.
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Paladins are not always hated. The only issue is when the GM and the player are not on the same page with what is/is not allowed. Once you get past that things are gravy.
In any event I would suggest go over the eidolon again if it is doing all those things you said it was doing in your first post.
Or better yet, post the build here.
I am sure people will gladly point out any errors in the build.
Im thinking atm it has something to do with Bears might (Feat/special ability thats definately 3rd party/homebrew), Bestial Fortitude and Giant step, none of these abilities I have heard of before so its most likely something in there is synergising with the sythesists base powers, or he is reading their interactions wrong.
I meant to ask about those also, but I forgot about it.
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I LOVE summoners.
No really, I know people complain about that being rule crazy and poorly written, but having played up to 12th level as a summoner (multiple times, might I add), I can honestly say I've never had a problem with outshining party members.
It's true. Summoner eidolons can be pretty beefy if you build them into combat beasts, but optimized melee characters have always been able to keep up with (or outshine) my eidolon. Heck, I've built Paladins and Barbarians (KOBOLD barbarians) that can keep up with eidolon abilities fairly easily.
In my experience, a summoner (and, consequently, synthesist) who focuses on turning his eidolon into a combat machine is really holding himself back.
1st: Size is a BIG issue (ha!). Even LARGE eidolons will have a hard time fitting places, and that minute long casting time isn't as great as you'd think in a dangerous situation. Once you let least go on size, it's only a matter of time before the eidolon seems too good to be true.
2nd: Eidolon's don't get many feats, and they NEED some feats in order for many of their abilities to be useful. Reach isn't THAT big of a deal when you only get 1-2 AoO's.
3rd: Eidolon's are so DELIGHTFULLY versatile that anyone who doesn't utilize it is crazy! Yeah, melee monsters are fun for a while, but it doesn't take much for a character to be considered "viable" in a combat scenario. They make fantastic scouts, trackers, spotters, flankers... I mean, there is so much you can do with them, the possibilities are amazing!
But broken? Nah. I've seen them equaled or outdamaged, out-tanked, and out-spelled. Are they easier to optimize? Definitely. But nobody complains about the bard being broken when he puts out more damage than the group fighter (which I've also had happen. Turns out being able to optimize is a big deal in a party :P).
Edit: I would also like to point out that your method for determining melee power is VERY heavily scaled towards eidolons and creatures that get lots of attacks, and also greatly emphasizes minor point differences. If you're going to calculate damage, calculate the average damage each attack deals, including crit chance. If he's a Samurai, he's likely got a katana (and a keen one at that). That's a ~30% chance to deal double damage (yeah, he has to confirm, but that shouldn't be tough). Oh, and base movement speed... of course there is going to be a disparity. I'd be willing to bet that the eidolon has a good 20 points from it's base speed alone, not including any speed boosts (which many eidolons will probably get from flight, etc.).
Oh, and an eidolon can't bite 3 times, unless he has 3 heads, in which case your player spent WAY too many evolutions on heads and bites.
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What about night attacks? remember it takes him 10 mins to put the Eidolon suit on and unless he built intelligently he is extremely vunerable without his suit, he could use a 2nd level spell to summon it, but depending on how often you have used such tactics he might not even know the spell.
Any well prepared summoner will know the spell, and quite a few will have augmented summoning to go with it. Worst case, carry a few scrolls.
What about in towns? do you let him walk around looking like a dragon with no ill effects in the middle of a city?, how about you enforce a no dragons in town rule and then ambush the party a couple of times with basic thugs (he can still contribute with spells and summons but he aint the melee monster he was)
What if I defined my eidolon as looking human?
Seriously! The synthesist I am putting together for PFS is defining his eidolon to look almost exactly like himself, only wearing celestrial scale armor.
There are literally dozens of scenarios where a sythesist cannot use his eidolon suit, and thus the rest of the party can get time in the spotlight without you having to raise the bar.
Yes, there will be times. It should be planned for. Worst case, I've still got my armor and gear, and can drop a boat load of augmented summons.
I LOVE summoners.
No really, I know people complain about that being rule crazy and poorly written, but having played up to 12th level as a summoner (multiple times, might I add), I can honestly say I've never had a problem with outshining party members.
It's true. Summoner eidolons can be pretty beefy if you build them into combat beasts, but optimized melee characters have always been able to keep up with (or outshine) my eidolon. Heck, I've built Paladins and Barbarians (KOBOLD barbarians) that can keep up with eidolon abilities fairly easily.
In my experience, a summoner (and, consequently, synthesist) who focuses on turning his eidolon into a combat machine is really holding himself back.
Note that the OP is talking about the synthesist, not a summoner per se. The two are really quite different.
I agree that used wisely the eidolon can even be a skill monkey. But here we're talking about synthesist, not a real summoner.
The synthesist looses out to the standard Summoner in the action economy, so if the synthesist is broken, then the Summoner is completely broken.
My opinion is the synthesist is powerful, but not broken, unless you consider the standard summoner broken.
+1
I can't believe I didn't think of this...
Where's AM BARBARIAN! ? He would love this thread. The synthesist can turn into batty bat so that AM can ride him and PIERCE THE HEAVENS!
Seriously, look at how much raw damage a RAGELANCEPOUNCE barbarian can do, then complain about Synthesist :P
Sadly enough I think SKR shut that down. Maybe AM BARBARIAN is not in this thread because he is looking for SKR. :)
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Sadly enough I think SKR shut that down. Maybe AM BARBARIAN is not in this thread because he is looking for SKR. :)I can't believe I didn't think of this...
Where's AM BARBARIAN! ? He would love this thread. The synthesist can turn into batty bat so that AM can ride him and PIERCE THE HEAVENS!
Seriously, look at how much raw damage a RAGELANCEPOUNCE barbarian can do, then complain about Synthesist :P
I think so. Last I checked though, they were arguing the semantics of charging and mounted combat.
Sometimes I wonder about the hobby I've chosen... ;)
Yes.
Thanks Valfen. That is another issue. Allowing 3rd PP feats without considering the troubles they may cause is a bad idea. The eidolon has just made it that much harder for archers and casters to get away, and when you have a player who knows what he is doing that makes the GM's job that much more difficult.
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Note that the OP is talking about the synthesist, not a summoner per se. The two are really quite different.I agree that used wisely the eidolon can even be a skill monkey. But here we're talking about synthesist, not a real summoner.
One of the many summoner archetypes I've played is Synthesist. Yes, it's different, but the simple fact is that the only difference between the standard Summoner and the Synthesist is that the Summoner gets two turns per round, and the Synthesist gets 1. You can complain all day about how the Synthesist has SOOO many HP's, but my Archery specialized Summoner can put out more damage than your Synthesist (because the eidolon stats are exactly the same), is less crippled by Dismiss, has spells that are still just as effective in the spellcasting department (because they're buff spells for the most part, and DC doesn't matter), and, if you decide to go the melee route, can even flank with his eidolon (which is a great use of Teamwork feats, might I add).
Not that I don't like Synthesists, mind you, but in all the times I've seen Summoners played (synth's or otherwise), they have never undermined other party members, whether or not they were combat specc'd.
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Target CMD / tripping? Really? Level 10 Str 30 large-sized quadruped, and you're going to try to trip? Also, my favorite Synths are dwarves (you have build points to spare so Cha 14 or even 16 is no big deal; meanwhile it shores up any "saves" weakness").
Here, let's build out. Criticize the build, aside from "min-max" cheese (this is an attempt to prove overpowered). 15 points
Level 10 Dwarven Synthesist (Quadraped):
Str: 7 (30) - -4
Int: 13 - 3
Wis: 16 - 5
Dex: 7 (18) - -4
Con: 16 (19) - same con, both forms - 5
Chr: 16 (18 with +2 cha headband, 2 from levels) - 10
Evolution: Improved Armor (3), Pounce, Arms, Claws (twice), Large, Wings
Casts Mage Armor twice / day and extended Greater Magic Weapon once per day (+1 all attacks)
It has toughness as a feat, plus lots of skill focuses in knowledges
Skills: Fly - +17
Perception: +25 (has trait for bonus)
Diplomacy: +10
UMD: +10
Acrobatics +10
AC: 12 + 8 (level natural) +1 (size natural - size penalty) +2 (shield effect) +4 (Mage armor) +6 (evolutins) +4 (dexterity) +1 ring = 38.
HP: Dwarf - 8 + 5.5 * 9 + 4*10 = 97 + Eidilon temp (6.5 * 8 + 5 * 8 = 92 temp).
Saves (-4 if Dwarf bonus does not apply)
Will: +17 Ref: +15 Fort: +15
CMD: 10 +1 (size) +4 (dex) +10 (Str) +8 (BAB) = 33, +6 vs trip +4 vs grapple
Feats: Steely Resolve, Extra Evolution (2), Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Strike, Power Attack
Attacks (5, and can pounce): all +15 (before non-day buffs, after power attack... usually much higher). Compare with fighter, who will typically be +18 by now after same.
Damage: d8 (or d6) + 23 + 2d6 each. First hit each round does +5 damage if charged.
Magic items: Rod of extend (2)
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 cloak of resistance
+2 headband of charisma
Amulet of might fist (electric attack)
Miscellaneous wands (lesser restore, a few restore Eidilon, honeyed tongue, etc)
And before you ask, it has been clarified Synths can take extra evolution. Dragon stance lets him pounce through friendlies; with advanced notice likes freedom of movement so he can charge through rough terrain as well.
So, compared with our fighter / barb raging compatriot, slightly lower to hit, but far more versatile. Evolution surges fill in any needed gaps, can haste, and when in a hostile area opens with extended Heroism (3 hours). Spell list is almost strictly buffs for party, with a little utility (Restore Eidilon for instance).
There, now we have a comparison basis. Anyone care to say I misbuilt or put forth something comparable in terms of damage output / resilience /
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This is just a quick note: I'd like to see more specifics of your build (how you reach certain numbers, things like that).
Attacks: Where are you getting +23+2d6 from? From what we have here, I see: +10 Str., +6 Power Attack, +1d6 Amulet, for a total of +16+1d6(Electric).
Also, you need Greater Magic Fang if you're going to cast it on claws/bites. Greater Magic Weapon won't work.
Minor nitpicks, but I felt they were worth pointing out.
Also, I don't like doing all the math required for char-ops, but I'm sure there are some fine examples of level 10 characters that can match at least your damage dealing ability over in the DPR Olympics thread.
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Yeah, GMF, mislabeled.
Also, saves are +2 higher (shield bonus), and Will was calculated 1 lower than it is. So saves Will: +20 Fort: +17 Ref: +17 (with evasion)
The total is d6/d4 + 17 + 2d6 (acid evolve, electric amulet). +5 1st attack. I +3ed power attack in the calc. You can get this damage or / above here on DPR, but it's hard; and the Fighters / Barbarians that do this have actual weakness (nowhere close on hp/saves/AC). This character is a self-contained invincible machine of destruction, and evolution surge acts as a "joker" for everything from Spell Resistance to Blindsight to Perfect Flight. They can also diplomize well, and do flying charges through friendly squares (avoids most difficult terrain, so charge is almost a given). In most settings they'll have heroism up for the adventuring day as well (3 hours is usually a dungeon-setting adventuring day, or far more). More saves, more to hit.
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Of course the synthesist "has" pounce at level 1 ... so even with two handed weapons he won't be doing single attacks very often. In fact almost every melee character is improved by dipping synthesist for pounce, which is a pretty good indication of being OP.
A one level dip into synthesist for pounce is going to place some serious caps on your physical stats.
You'll have:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 13
One can be raised by +2 with your remaining evolutions, any remaining stat increases must be purchased via feats. Level based stat increases will not work.
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Absolutely incredible gentlemen, and here I am on the other side at Enworld justifying against the hoards (seemingly) heh heh
Very excellent,
Okay.
Hopefully we can put this matter to rest. Using the rules of the DPR Olympics, I've calculated the average damage the above synthesist can do vs. the average level 10 monster (AC 24).
On a simple full attack, the above synthesist puts out ~81.425 damage per round. On a pounce, he does ~108.055 damage, due to increased accuracy and a little extra bonus damage on the initial hit. This was, of course, including power attack, but does not include Heroism (which could be up, but would not amount to a terribly large increase in DPR)
Now, let's look at some of the top DPR Olympics legal entries:
(druid) entry 64.131 to 124.59
(paladin) entry 31.40 to 99.13
(ranger) entry 52.372262 to 125.0572 with favored enemy.
(barbarian) entry 94.135 to 222.65 with charging.
(cavalier) entry 126.1
(paladin archer) entry 33.75 to 150.15 depending on evil targets
(alchemist/chymist) entry 100.25 to 126.17 dpr
(paladin) entry 28.40 to 133.24
As Thalin mentioned, his character is a min-maxed character, and his average damage per round matches that which other min-maxed characters can do (and, in a few cases, is actually lower on average).
Now, it's true that Thalin's Synthesist DOES have pretty nice defenses, but there are ways to get around that relatively easily (I'm looking at you, touch AC), without having to resort to "50 gun-wielders shoot you in the face", not to mention a whole slew of traps that work against him (oh, and the fact that he's large sized doesn't help, either. A small tunnel TOTALLY neutralizes the eidolon portion of the summoner.)
Satisfied?
Edit: I would also like to point out that the above saves are a little deceptive.
Will: +13 Ref: +11 Fort: +11 (+4 vs. Spells & Spell-like Abilities)
^ Doesn't look nearly as intimidating at a glance. It's also worth pointing out that any decent Paladin has saves that are about on par with that (and probably about 45d6 swift action HP on the side [~157.5 "temp HP" :P])
He's right, guys. What kind of elitist uses things like "numerical data" to refute a claim? This internet slap-fight is based on conjecture and anecdotal evidence alone, okay?
But seriously, this is a debate, it's bad form to react to being proven wrong by taking potshots at strawmen and making ad-homimen remarks.
(also I totally consider vanilla or Master Summoner to be superior to Synth though maybe that's just me.)
I may be mistaken, but let me check...
A synthesist's Eidolon does not gain any Feat or skill. So, no Power Attack (or Cleave) for him, which is a big hit to his DPR, unless the synthesist himself grabs the feat, which requires STR 13, and just like the bonus from a Belt of Giant Strength, the fused Eidolon's STR bonus does not allow the synthesist to take the feat, since he doesn't actually have the necessary Strenght score.
Also he can't grab Extra Evolution, since only Eidolon can take that feat, and as I mentioned, a synthesist's eidolon has no feats of his own.
He couldn't use Two-Weapon Fighting either, unless the synthesist has DEX 15. And even so, he attacks with a -6 penalty, instead of -2 if he has more than 2 arms,as its written in the Multiweapon Fighting feat description.
Buffing natural attacks' damage is way more expensive than doing the same with weapons, thanks to stupidly high cost of Amulet of Mighty Fist.
I'm not familiar with the Dragon Strike feat,so can't comment on that.
So for the synthesist be really competent in melee combat, he can't just dump his physical stats, as he needs to fulfill the prerequisites of many combat feats.
Is the Synthesist a powerful class? Sure! Is he more powerful than martial classes? No doubt. Is his DPR better than an equally optimized barbarian? I don't think so...
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I may be mistaken, but let me check...
A synthesist's Eidolon does not gain any Feat or skill. So, no Power Attack (or Cleave) for him, which is a big hit to his DPR, unless the synthesist himself grabs the feat, which requires STR 13, and just like the bonus from a Belt of Giant Strength, the fused Eidolon's STR bonus does not allow the synthesist to take the feat, since he doesn't actually have the necessary Strenght score.
Also he can't grab Extra Evolution, since only Eidolon can take that feat, and as I mentioned, a synthesist's eidolon has no feats of his own.
He couldn't use Two-Weapon Fighting either, unless the synthesist has DEX 15. And even so, he attacks with a -6 penalty, instead of -2 if he has more than 2 arms,as its written in the Multiweapon Fighting feat description.
Buffing natural attacks' damage is way more expensive than doing the same with weapons, thanks to stupidly high cost of Amulet of Mighty Fist.
I'm not familiar with the Dragon Strike feat,so can't comment on that.
So for the synthesist be really competent in melee combat, he can't just dump his physical stats, as he needs to fulfill the prerequisites of many combat feats.
Is the Synthesist a powerful class? Sure! Is he more powerful than martial classes? No doubt. Is his DPR better than an equally optimized barbarian? I don't think so...
A couple of points:
1) Good point about the Strength Requirement for Power Attack. Technically, the summoner himself would need to meet the prereq, and as a result, isn't as optimized as he'd like to be.
2)The Summoner takes the Extra Evolution feat, not the eidolon (as the eidolon does not have the Eidolon Class Feature).
3) The eidolon in this scenario is attacking only with Natural Weapons, and all of them are primary natural weapons, so there is no penalty to attack rolls accrued by making multiple attacks. Because of this, the Amulet of Mighty Fists is, by far, the superior choice for this build.
But good suggestions, though.
@joah: There is not enough palm in the world for my face.
A couple of points:
1) Good point about the Strength Requirement for Power Attack. Technically, the summoner himself would need to meet the prereq, and as a result, isn't as optimized as he'd like to be.
2)The Summoner takes the Extra Evolution feat, not the eidolon (as the eidolon does not have the Eidolon Class Feature).
3) The eidolon in this scenario is attacking only with Natural Weapons, and all of them are primary natural weapons, so there is no penalty to attack rolls accrued by making multiple attacks. Because of this, the Amulet of Mighty Fists is, by far, the superior choice for this build.
But good suggestions, though....
1- Thanks
2- True. I just checked and it does say "Eidolon Class Feature", I remembered it as being written "Eidolon". My bad. This will teach me not to trust my less-than-optimal memory! But the feat does say that you can't select it more than once for every 5 summoner levels, so it's somewhat limited, and since the summoner doesn't get a feat at 10th level, he can't have 2 extra evolution points 'til 11th-level.
3- I tought so. My point is that the barbarian can have the same bonus on his attacks spending a lot less. Also, his superior BAB and 1,5x Strength to 2-handed damage increases his precision and damage even more. But now that I think about it, a Synthesist/Gunslinger with Dex 15 and lots of arms would not really care about that -6 penalty.
BTW, can I get Weapon Focus(Natural Weapons)? Or does it has to be Weapon Focus(Bite) and Weapon Focus(Claw)? If the latter case is true, that's one more advantage for the Barbarian, who can just grab Weapon Focus(whatever-he-wields)
I'm not questioning the fact that summoners, synthesist or not, are very powerful... I just don't think they are as broken as people claim.
Yar!
BTW, can I get Weapon Focus(Natural Weapons)? Or does it has to be Weapon Focus(Bite) and Weapon Focus(Claw)? If the latter case is true, that's one more advantage for the Barbarian, who can just grab Weapon Focus(whatever-he-wields)
It must be the specific natural attack, ie: Weapon Focus (Claw), Weapon Focus (Bite), Weapon Focus (Tail), Weapon Focus (Wing), Weapon Focus (Gore), Weapon Focus (Hoof), Weapon Focus (Talon), Weapon Focus (Slam), etc.
Weapon Focus (Natural) would be the equivalent of Weapon Focus (Manufactured).
All instances of Weapon Focus in the various Pathfinder Bestiaries call out a specific limb/attack, just as for manufactured weapons it calls out specific weapons.
~P
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While I was writing my response, more came in.
Answering STR issue: SKR says Yes, the eidolon suit qualifies a synthesist to take Power Attack, etc.
And to how often for Extra Evolution, SKR says 1, 5, 10, 15, 20.
A few corrections for Thalin to look at:
a) At tenth level, the synthesist get five feats, not six. The eidolon gets zero.
b) With Int 13, and putting favored class bonus into HP, you only have 30 skill points. 3 is required in Acrobatics for the Dragon Style, so you can only max out two skills. You can max Fly to +17. Perception is not a class skill. If you find a trait to make it one, you can only get to +16 without buying a magic item or spending an evolution point. That leaves you 7 points left to spend across all the other skills. You mentioned several skill focuses, but did not show where they came from. It wasn't feats. Granted, you have only spent about 2/3rds your wealth by level, but a +10 perception item, if allowed by the GM, is 10k.
c) HP: Dwarf fused = 8 + base 4.5 * 9 + Con 4*10 + Favored class 10 = 98 real
HP: Eidiolon = base 5.5 * 8 + Con 4*8 = 76 temp
You had mentioned Toughness, but it wasn't in the feat budget.
d) The use of the Dragon Style attack for 0.5x extra STR damage requires using an Unarmed Strike, not a Natural Weapon attack. If you had taken Feral Combat Training, the Natural Weapon could be substituted for the Unarmed Strike. You also have no levels in monk. So, the result is that the use of the Dragon Stance for the Unarmed Strike is reduced to non-lethal damage. Still usable, but does cramp the style a bit. The other parts of the feat are still worthy of taking, but you don't get full advantage out of the 1.5 STR clause without taking Feral Combat Training, which requires Weapon Focus.
All of these are relatively minor, but do carve away at the "overpowered" feeling you think you are seeing.
In general, the synthesist is skill starved and feat starved. It can compensate for those two issues by spending evolution points which would normally be tasked to offense. You can create an offensive glass cannon that will almost catch up to a barbarian in DPR, or you can be more well rounded and sit in the middle of the DPR pack.
Well Thalin, it is an admirable effort. Unfortunately there are those in the community that must always be right. We seem to have attracted the elitist of the bynch who will stand at nothing but to prove us wrong and prove themselves right. They sling at us their "anything can be made to be broken" and then hammer us with their broken messages. All I can say is haha, look at how mean his avatar looks. You sir, are disgusting. Enjoy your power gaming and I will see you in Hell.
Welp, this thread is over now and kind of a waste... shame too, it was interesting.
While I was writing my response, more came in.
Answering STR issue: SKR says Yes, the eidolon suit qualifies a synthesist to take Power Attack, etc.
Huh. I didn't know that. Not sure if I like that ruling... But whatever...
I must admit I was wrong. The synthesist can really dump his physical attributes. Kinda reminds me of the 3.5 druid. That's not a good sign...
But I don't think he is that much skill-starved. With a Int 14, a human summoner can have 6 skill points per level. 5 if he opts for extra HP as his favored class bonus. That is enough to maximize Perception, Spellcraft, UMD and whatever else he wants, and still have a few skill ranks remaining. More than enough for a class with 6 spell levels and a Eidolon who offers a lot of options.
I still say summoner is a great class, it's very powerful and if offers great RP potential, and his limited (but awesome) spell list make it easier for DMs to deal with them.
Synthesists must be fun too, maybe I'll play one next campaign.
BTW, thanks for clarifying things, Elyza.
Now I'm going to bed, else I'll be regret this tomorrow...
Synthesists can take Power Attack and similar feats, even with crap strength. They are only permitted to use it when they meet the prerequisites, however, such as when they are fused or wearing a belt of giant strength. Game developers have confirmed this.
Because the Fused Eidolon ability says "in all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability" a synthesist can indeed take the Extra Evolution feat. Game developers have confirmed this.
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Well Thalin, it is an admirable effort. Unfortunately there are those in the community that must always be right. We seem to have attracted the elitist of the bynch who will stand at nothing but to prove us wrong and prove themselves right. They sling at us their "anything can be made to be broken" and then hammer us with their broken messages. All I can say is haha, look at how mean his avatar looks. You sir, are disgusting. Enjoy your power gaming and I will see you in Hell.
So you come asking for help. It is shown that the numbers are not that great, and you reply with a childish insult. Nobody has insulted you. Everyone has been more than cordial. You just seem to be upset because nobody is agreeing with you. If you still reading this then you see Thalin's build was incorrect. In any even you should go to the link that is below.
I direct you to go here.|
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Actually a few notes:
1) it's been specifically ruled, you can, in fact, take power attack (or any other stat required feats) if you can keep the ability score for 24 hours. So level, go on an all night "level party" in your Eidilon suit. Bam! Instant fun.
2) The feats listed were for the summoner, not Eidilon. The Eidilon, as stated, does not get to use feats... there is a minor workaround in that you do get their hp as temp hp, making toughness very attractive. Beyond that, I recommend having the Eidilon take Skill Focus is various knowledges; you can separate and ask it questions when you need to.
3) Dragon Strike requires unarmed strike, you can still use it regardless. The goal was to "pounce through friendlies"; anyone who has ever run a pounce-friend knows this. You are correct; you do not get the +5 damage on first hit. That's my bad; but hardly the reason I took the feat :).
As stated, the build keeps up with DPR classes, without buffs and with defenses above those of most classes (remember it is +16 / +13 / +13 after I found my mistake). And the +4 rarely does not apply; the occasional reflex save (dragon breath), and I really can't think of many will/fort saves that do not fall in the poison, disease, spell, spell-like set (exhaustion from heat?).
That's about it; the DPR olympians are made just for damage; I could have lost flight for a little extra damage, but that would have eliminated a lot of utility. Same is true with the 3 evolution points for +6 AC. Also, how many of those can do that almost every round? Pounce + flight + move through friendlies.
Hope that clarifies everything.
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In short, Synth = major contender in DPR olympics; with flight, bard-like buffing spell lists, paladin-like saves, unprecedented armor class, the ability to keep a knowledge-based Eidilon ready to separate off and answer questions "out of combat", powerful spells moved "on level" (often enabling lesser metamagic rods to accidentally affect them). And the most flexible self-buff in the game in evolution surge.