As we all know, Hero Lab is officially endorsed by Paizo in some capacity or other. I have used Hero Lab for a while now and find it very helpful.
Anyway, I was theorycrafting as we all do and was trying to come up with a Lion Shaman character concept for pathfinder society play using the Hero Lab software. As I entered in the data for each level, I noticed that at level 2 Hero Lab appeared to indicate that my Lion Shaman received the ability of Lion Wild Shape 1/day as a special ability. This is pretty awesome and I wonder if it is legitimate/legal.
The Shaman abilities written up in the APG come across as a little ambiguous and I suppose are open to interpretation. The interpretation Hero Lab (officially endorsed) seem to take is that for wildshaping into a lion shape, you get the wildshape 2 levels earlier than normal which is level 4 for standard druids. This sort of makes sense as Lion Shamans get a +2 level bonus for wildshaping into feline shapes and -2 penalty for non feline shapes. I guess that means you can't wildshape into a non feline animal as a Lion Shaman until level 6.
Is there official errata about this? If not, what are people's opinions about this? Apologies if what I am trying to clarify is a little incoherent as it is Friday night Down Under and I am well and truly inebriated after a few post work drinks. :)
No, by the rules you get wild shape at 4th level even with the archetype, and then at 6th level you get the -2/+2.
I have to warn you that when the APG came out the designer of shaman druids (iirc was Nelson) said that he intented to get wild shape at 6th level and not at 4th, but we are two books with shaman druids and the wording hasn't changed to reflect Nelson's intent.
Herolab is wonderful software -- with that said it does have bugs and still needs some fixes. It is not an official source of rules material and as such always go with what the books say over what Herolab says.
No, by the rules you get wild shape at 4th level even with the archetype, and then at 6th level you get the -2/+2.
Are there other alternate classes that grant an ability with the same name as a core ability, but do not replace the core ability?
No, by the rules you get wild shape at 4th level even with the archetype, and then at 6th level you get the -2/+2.Are there other alternate classes that grant an ability with the same name as a core ability, but do not replace the core ability?
Becuase it doesn't say replace? It just adds something to the ability.
Strangely enough, a look at the chart shows that x shaman druids receive their normal wild-shape at level 4, and then have it changed (C) at level 6. That is highly unusual.
Becuase it doesn't say replace? It just adds something to the ability.No, by the rules you get wild shape at 4th level even with the archetype, and then at 6th level you get the -2/+2.Are there other alternate classes that grant an ability with the same name as a core ability, but do not replace the core ability?
-edit for rudeness-
I was actually asking if other classes do the same thing, not making an argument either way. I can't recall off-hand of any other alternate class that does this, so I was asking in case others were more familiar with it.
Becuase it doesn't say replace? It just adds something to the ability.No, by the rules you get wild shape at 4th level even with the archetype, and then at 6th level you get the -2/+2.Are there other alternate classes that grant an ability with the same name as a core ability, but do not replace the core ability?
-edit for rudeness-
I was actually asking if other classes do the same thing, not making an argument either way. I can't recall off-hand of any other alternate class that does this, so I was asking in case others were more familiar with it.
I am sorry for being a smartass myself then, it's just that i have been a few times in threads with shaman wild shape issue and i am kinda edgy on the subject, again i am sorry.
To answer your question:Of the top of my head no, but i can't remember all the archetypes, maybe some bard archetype for barid perfomance?
HERE is Jason Nelson's post on RAI as he, the author, intended it to be.
Effectively, LazarX's last statement is the gist of Jason's post.
-- david
Papa.DRB
But there is nothing in the written archetypes that works like that, the archetypes don't lose wild shape or say anywhere that they take for the first time at 6th.
Also be aware that there have been two hardcovers with shamans since APG and they haven't changed the wording.
Perhaps they actually think the wording is fine, and that most people would read them the intended way? I, for one, immediately thought of those archetypes as working that way (no wild shape before 6th level) the first time I read them.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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HERE is Jason Nelson's post on RAI as he, the author, intended it to be.
Effectively, LazarX's last statement is the gist of Jason's post.
-- david
Papa.DRB
I used wording in writing it that I thought was clear, but in the end it was not. I've explained how it should have been reworded to clarify.
HOWEVER, my restatement is not official, and Paizo has never seen fit to alter or clarify the wording in print. If you're asking how it should work, and I tell you, then it's my opinion, and only that, that continuing to insist on the "you get it at 4th, then it gets worse at 6th" interpretation is being willfully obtuse.
The wording in the printed text is sufficiently ambiguous to allow that interpretation, though it is not sufficiently clear to DEMAND that interpretation. I think you're being silly, but that's just me. If you and your group are having fun with it, then it's your game bro. Enjoy it!
It's what the current rules say, since it doesn't use either the replace word or say that you get the wildshape at 6th instead of 4th then there is no RAW reason for it to get wildshape at 6th.
In fact, the only thing in the written archetypes to point that you get wild shape at 6th for the first time, is the fact that the ability has the same name as the base druid's ability and that may imply that it replaces it and thus you get it at 6th level and not at 4th. But if that's the case then wild shape doesn't work at all for the animal shamans since in their wild shapes doesn't say anything about changing shapes or the duration or the spells or anything.
If it said somthing along the lines <<Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level you gain this ability which works exactly as the druid's wild shape ability except that her effective druid level is -2 for any form except for (insert animal) form with which her effective druid level is +2. This ability replaces wild shape>>
That way it's clear that the ability replaces wildshape and that you gain it at 6th level.
I am not saying that your intent wasn't to get it at 6th, i understand you saying that your intent is to start at 6th, i may disagree with it but i understand it, it's just not what the now written rules say.
It's the same with the stealth skill's rules, sure we most of us know that it can deny your opponent's DEX bonus but the written skill doesn't.
The way I look at it is that Animal shamans get Wild Shape at level 4. When they're supposed to get a better version of wild shape at level 6, they only improve in their respective animal. When they hit level 8, they begin improving in all animal shapes while still vastly improving in their animal shape.
That's how I look at it.
Giving Animal Shaman Wildshape at level 6 makes them forfeit one use per day of it, since they don't get it at 4, and that's kind of dumb.
The problem with this is 5th level. An animal shaman would have all their wild shaping improve at 5th level, but then when from 5 to 6, their totem form would get an effective +3 levels, and everything else would get a -1 level. No other class ability, ever, gets worse when you level up.
Oh, come on - The author of the archetype you are debating came into the thread himself and told you exactly how he intended the archetype to work, yet you continue to debate how it is intended to work?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I have abundantly clarified my RAI on multiple posts. You can certainly argue that the RAW is ambiguous and unclear. You cannot argue that the RAI is ambiguous and unclear. Just in case you don't want to look it up elsewhere, here it is:
No wild shape at all until 6th level. Then, wild shape +2 for lion, -2 for everything else.
If you want to play it some other way, by all means have fun, but you shouldn't suggest that the reason for your choice is an ambiguity in authorial intention.