Fighters have no problem with skill points, or mobility, or at shrugging off status effects, or at mounted combat, or combat manoeuvres or even unarmed combat!
My fighter build is a Tactician/Mobile Fighter/Unbreakable/Roughrider/Lore Warden/Brawler.
** spoiler omitted **
Wow, I needed that. Q.Q
Interestingly, neither does my my build!
** spoiler omitted **
Dead serious too.
15 PB: 15, 15, 12, 10, 13, 7Ability Adjustments: 4th (+1 Str), 8th (+1 Dex), 12th (+1 Str), 16th (+1 Str), 20th (+1 Str)
Feats: 1st) Power Attack, 3rd) Quick Draw, 5th) Precise Shot, 7th) Craft Wondrous Item, 9th) Mounted Combat 11th) Spirited Charge, 13th) Deadly Aim, 15th) Iron Will, 17th) Toughness, 19th) Deflect Arrows
Bonus Feats: 2nd) Rapid Shot, 3rd) Endurance, 6th) Manyshot, 10th) Improved Precise Shot, 14th) Pinpoint Targeting, 18th) Shot on the Run.
Common Spells: Longstrider (+10 ft. speed for up to 17 hours), resist energy (energy resistance 30 against any element I choose), freedom of movement (I ignore grapples, holds, aquatic penalties, webs, telekinesis, etc), neutralize poison (cause being poisoned is bad), and a bunch of other cool stuff.
Mount: His name is Silvermane. He's my animal companion. I got him at 4th level, and took mounted combat at 9th. He's my good buddy. He's fast, and he's smarter than your average horse. Tough too. Of course, when he dies, I mourn his loss but find another one like him. He's trained really well. He's got just a crapload of tricks, and even understands speech, like the horse in Tangled. I crafted him some horseshoes of the Zypher so he can fly. I really like using gravity blade while 2-handed power attacking with my lance as we come screaming through the air at full speed. It's like a roller coaster of doom! Of course, that's when he's not just moving at full speed while I'm full attacking from his back with my bow.
Unarmed Fighting: Well I took improved unarmed strike as a joke, because I figured I could help my monk buddy train. It kind of pisses him off that I'm actually pretty good with my +2 cold iron gauntlets, and I figure it's nice because I can't be disarmed of them. I could have saved a feat though and just used my armor spikes or spiked gauntlet, but at least I learned to deflect arrows, which is kinda cool. It's not really very good for me, but I'm not trying to be optimized or anything. Just thought it would be cool to learn Fung Ku!
Skills: I got 120 skill points over 20 levels, and didn't put my favored class bonus here. I could get another 20 points if I did, but I figured I wouldn't mind a few more HPs (like I had a d12 HD really), so I went with that. I then get another 60 for the +6 Intelligence item I crafted myself. That leaves me with the following (before mods ability mods, magic items, or masterwork tools):
I removed another post. It is possible to have a meaningful discussion without throwing in pot-shots.
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Not going to dig up don't know how many pages to get to a Tactician Fighter. Like I said before, if the post hasn't been eliminated, saying that the Fighter can get good skills because an archetype can do it is a self defeating argument. It only proves that you need an archetype to fix the Fighter, which implies that the fighter needs fixing, which is the initial argument you are trying to disprove. See how that works?
@TarkXT:err... what was the acid test again?
Not going to dig up don't know how many pages to get to a Tactician Fighter. Like I said before, if the post hasn't been eliminated, saying that the Fighter can get good skills because an archetype can do it is a self defeating argument. It only proves that you need an archetype to fix the Fighter, which implies that the fighter needs fixing, which is the initial argument you are trying to disprove. See how that works?
@TarkXT:err... what was the acid test again?
I'm not TarkXT, but here's the list!
Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Crossing Lava
Being in Lava
Killing an invisible enemy.
Killing a burrowing enemy
Killing a teleporting enemy.
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
Being underwater
Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Being left with an improvised weapon.
Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
Magical effects on other party members.
Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
I think we need to get Trinam in here to do the barbarian answers.
But if it's AM BARBARIAN, then we have the answer, and the answer is SMASH!
Etc, etc. :P
Actually, the pit, flying enemies, and gap are solved via BATTYBAT.
I'll take the barbarian Acid Test:
Opening a Locked Wooden Door
Sunder!
Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Sunder! And dodge the trap cause I have trapsense. If I can't dodge it, then I'll just take it. Barbarian has tons of HP, barbarian laughs at pitiful trap. Ha!
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Raging sunder!!! Strenght Surge or Smasher can do it.
Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Rage jump! Simple rage gives me a strenght bonus and Raging Leaper can be helpful too.
Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
Rage jump! Again!
Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
SPELL SUNDER!!!
Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Raging Leap again. The great thing about Raging Leaping is that when you get to the other side you're already in battle mode.
Crossing Lava
Run and laugh with the monk at the slow people.
Being in Lava
Get out of the lava. Barbarian not very smart, but smart enough to not stay too long in lava.
Killing an invisible enemy.
Scent and Spell Sunder. Invisible my hairy barbarian...
Killing a burrowing enemy
Wait until it comes up to attack. Show it why attacking barbarians is so high on the "Do not do it" list, right under warning a wizard you will attack him in about two days and then actually waiting those two days.
Killing a teleporting enemy.
Can he teleport more than 40ft. per round? If not, CHARGE! Then AoO when he tries to teleport again. If yes, Intimidate to demoralize and grab a bow. Needing Dex for extra AC has side benefits.
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC.
Grapple! Barbarian is king of grappling!
Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Still mvoing more than most classes.
Moving through unnatural hindering terrain.
Still moving more than most classes.
Being underwater.
If not fighting, high con means I can hold my breath for several minutes. Coupled with Fast Movement I can cross entire lakes while holding my breath.
If fighting, kill the enemy then come up for air. Rinse and repeat. Pun completely intended.
Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Acrobatics is a class skill and I'm wearing light aror, not much of a problem. If fighting in that condition, grapple the foe, and throw yourself with your foe, let go of the foe, Acrobatics for half damage, DR for a little less. Barbarian survives, enemie only for time enough for the barbarian to draw his sword.
A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Fast movement. Run circles around the mob. Those extra 10 feet are alot when multiplied.
Second option, demoralize, then demoralize again and again until the flee in panic, a mob would be of low level NPCs and my intimidate would demoralize them for several rounds. Fear efects stack going from shaken all the way to panicked.
Being left with an improvised weapon.
Kill stuff with the improvised weapon. Longswords or beer bottles, barbarian still raging.
Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
If it's not a monk or specialized fighter, show the punk who is the master of CMB. If it's one of those show them why damage is better than maneuvers and that they should have been barbarians if they wanted to have both.
Magical effects on other party members.
SPEL SUNDER!!!
Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
Second verse, same as the first. SPELL SUNDER!!!
Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Unless charmed/dominated/confused, SPELL SUNDER!!! If one of those options and not in control, have pity on the party. They are about to face a raging barbarian, few can survive that.
Climbing is probably better for the pits but it depends on the level. A 20th level barbarian could get an acrobatics bonus of 90 if dexterity based so with skill focus and acrobatic the barbarian could make the jump you could also use a trait and a couple of fleet feats to increase this bonus. It's a very silly build though so I would stick with climbing since the DC would most likely be only 25.
character buildIf you reduced dex and str to 14, wis to 12, you could also have 14 int. You've given up nothing at first level to get 2 extra skills a level. You'd also qualify for Combat Expertise. It doesn't have any noticeable impact until you get a stat point at level 4 and above. In the end you are down 1 point of hit/damage, that a fighter can spare because he's already one of the best at what he does.
Meh. It wasn't optimized at all. I mean, I had him take Improved Unarmed Strike as a joke, just because it really didn't affect his overall effectiveness much. Bumping his Intelligence was an option, but again I was making a point that Intelligence wasn't a priority and I could still sport a healthy amount of skill points. By end game, I would have been plenty happy with his stats. If I was smart, I would have put one of the stat bumps into Con or Int (either really), since bringing those to an odd number would stack with the +5 inherent modifier I'd have to all stats by 20th level (due to spell shenanigans), and bring his final scores to something like Str 30, Dex 26, Con 24, Int 21, Wis 24, Cha 18.
I didn't really scratch the surface of his potentially, really. I actually began wondering what sorts of skills to take, because I ran out of most of the staples, and just started picking up stuff like Linguistics for more languages. o.o
You yourself criticized overly optimizing. He's actually not very optimized at all. I didn't figure in the equipment he would craft for himself, or really even scratch his in-combat and out-of-combat options from his spells much. Just listed a couple of 1st level buffs, neutralize poison, and freedom of movement. He has a lot of other options just by virtue of being a ranger, 'cause of those spells. I mean, he's even got monster summoning abilities, which even qualifies him for dealing with basic traps (particularly any non-resetting traps).
For a really un-optimized guy, I think he's really playable. It actually kind of looks like a newbie character, because I was jokingly placing his feats in different unrelated fields, and yet he turned out looking pretty attractive anyway. His melee + mounted + ranged combat is actually somewhat amusing in how effective it is in retrospect. Toss in his party utility due to his spells and easy use of certain magic items, and simple ability to craft stuff...well, I think he does pretty good.
I also left out a lot of his abilities. He's got a few favored enemies, some favored terrains, and so forth. I didn't want to complicate it, so I didn't draw on archtypes, but I know there's at least a few archtypes I could have used to trade favored terrain for something sexier (maybe the shapeshifting archtype or something). But it was really just something I threw together as a joke response to Mergy's post about being able to cover X/Y/Z things at the same time, and then suddenly realizing that he could totally do it, and then throwing up an example. :P
EDIT: I think if I was to do it more seriously, I would definitely have replaced IUS with Combat Expertise, just because being able to gain a +6 dodge bonus to your AC is pretty good at turning you into a tank. Especially combined with a shield and fighting defensively.
Ignoring proof just shows that no matter what, that person's mind is made up.
Proof?
So I guess the real question is this: Even after the proof, why still hate the fighter?
Who hates the Fighter?
Ignoring proof just shows that no matter what, that person's mind is made up.
So I guess the real question is this: Even after the proof, why still hate the fighter?
2 skill points, bad saves, bad touch ac, and no real motivation built into the class itself. The name fighter for a class is stupid anyway.
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Ignoring proof just shows that no matter what, that person's mind is made up.
So I guess the real question is this: Even after the proof, why still hate the fighter?
There's no proof. I only see poor excuses for evidence.
Hate? ... I look at your alias and it all becomes clear.
These tests are pointless. Arguing that each class can do most of these things and then listing all the abilities that make it happen without a character design just proves that there's abilities that can solve these problems. Everyone has ways of solving problems.
Actually you are missing the point. The test does not measure one capability of solving the problems as people have come up with answers that have nothing to do with class, race, or magic items at all.
The point is a measurement of efficiency. How efficient is the class at solving the problems? If it uses an archetype what does it solve and what does it prevent solving?
Ultimately it's a test built to gather data from which a result can be gathered from. It does not produce an immediate result without multiple people adding in their own styles, thoughts, and throwing in their collective knowledge.
I keep hearing people who claim I don't know how to play this game and how their 30 years of gaming somehow makes them automatic experts. I'm presenting a means by which they can flex that knowledge and skill and suddenly the crowd falls silent.
I keep hearing people who claim I don't know how to play this game and how their 30 years of gaming somehow makes them automatic experts. I'm presenting a means by which they can flex that knowledge and skill and suddenly the crowd falls silent.
Maybe the experience that many of us have know that your acid test is meaningless.
Here's the truth, every class does well in the circumstances it was designed for. If you play a class the way it was never intended to be played, you will have problems. That's just very basic logic.
Here's another bit of truth, some classes can fill more than one role but no class can fill every role all the time. Even the spellcasters need a day to change roles.
The only people who ever have a problem with the fighter are the ones who aren't actually trying to play to the fighter's strengths. Instead, they play to the weaknesses and then complain. If someone came here and complained that the wizard sucked because he keeps getting into melee and getting slaughtered, everyone would tell him that he needs to play a wizard differently. A melee wizard is very hard to play. It's possible, but certainly not what the class was meant to handle.
People want the fighter to be a ranger or barbarian or cavalier or druid, it's not. It's a fighter. If the class doesn't fit your character concept, then don't play it. If it does, then play it. Maybe you need more than one class to fit the concept. Maybe the concept can be better done with a different class. It's not a fault of the class. It's the fault of the player trying to shoehorn the class into something it was never meant to be.
Ignoring options just be stubborn doesn't change the fact that the options are there. If you want a skilled fighter, then build one. The option exists. If you want to play a fighter that is specialized in a single weapon beyond all others, then play one because the option is there. If you want to play a ranger than can find and disarm magical traps, then play one because the option is there. If you want to play a wizard that beats people over the head with scrolls, play one because the option is there. None of those options invalidate the core classes in any way. They are simply options to fill a concept.
Not going to dig up don't know how many pages to get to a Tactician Fighter. Like I said before, if the post hasn't been eliminated, saying that the Fighter can get good skills because an archetype can do it is a self defeating argument. It only proves that you need an archetype to fix the Fighter, which implies that the fighter needs fixing, which is the initial argument you are trying to disprove. See how that works?
@TarkXT:err... what was the acid test again?
The core fighter or the fighter. The two are not the same since the fighter involves any fighter type. This is important because as an example many people no longer think monks and barbarian suck, but they still think core monks, and barbarians suck.
I think these debates need to clarify from page 1 when they come up if they are talking about the class as a whole or only the one core version. This is part of the reason why this debate is still raging. Ashiel wants to focus on the core fighter, but BoB is discussing the fighter as a whole.As to removing races and so one, I can see that point. If the acid test can only be passed with race(feel free to replace with any other variable) Y then I think the race deserves the credit, but if it can be done in a variety* of ways then it can probably be assumed that it is reasonable that it can be done in most games. At the end of day I don't care if I need the party wizard, had to be a certain race, had to buy a potion, and so on. I do care that I can do it in a reasonable(not expending to many resources or too much effort) manner. This goes for any class.
*How many ways the cat can be skinned in order to count is another debate altogether though.
PS:When presenting an acid test one should which activities and/or how many can be reasonably passed. If not one poster's requirements may be met, but then another poster may come up with different criteria, and it is hard to come up with any one build that everyone will like.
PS2:This is more about quantifying standards than the fighter.
@Bob_Loblaw
In PF anyone can find any kind of trap.
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@Bob_Loblaw
In PF anyone can find any kind of trap.
Note: Magic traps such as glyph of warding are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find the glyph and Disable Device to thwart it.
That does not mean nobody else can find it, but it means using perception only the rogue can find it.
That seems to mean that even if the someone else finds that may not mean they know it is a trap.PS:I did not know if by find you meant "find" or identify as a hazard since the 2nd version of find is normally what people mean when referring to traps.
When someone post a fighter who have good skills a reasonable good will save and still is very competent in combat then is just an archetype, it is not representative of all fighters.
But when at the same time it seems mandatory that every barbarian take the beast totem chain + superstition chain + human favored class bonus + streng surge + Batybat + scent + rage lancepounce + wait until level 17 . And for some reason that build is representative of the barbarian class itself.
I'd just like to point out that I think that is just a silly. :P
A 20th level barbarian could get +20 skill points +3 class skill +20 enhancement raging leaper +17 dexterity bonus +10 competence bonus ring of jumping +20 racial bonus (haste, fleet x3, totem spirit wind clan,) +2 totem spirit wind clan, +6 skill focus acrobatics, +4 acrobatic, +7 furious (I am not sure if this is supposed to stack with the enhancement bonus provided by raging leaper or not,) and Noble Born (Orlovsky) for a +1 trait bonus.
That's a total of +110 to acrobatics while jumping. This is assuming a human urban barbarian. A standard barbarian could get the same bonus if they maxed dexterity as well since their movement would be 10 feet better cancelling out the loss of not adding the rage bonus to dexterity. So by taking 10 assuming the barbarian is in no danger they will make it out of the pit no problem. This is of course a very silly build and the climb dc on a 30ft. slippery pit should only be about 25. And even if the Furious weapon enhancement bonus is not supposed to stack with the raging leaper enhancement bonus the barbarian can still make it out by jumping although it does become much harder needing a 17 instead of a 10.
I'd just like to point out that I think that is just a silly. :PWhen someone post a fighter who have good skills a reasonable good will save and still is very competent in combat then is just an archetype, it is not representative of all fighters.
But when at the same time it seems mandatory that every barbarian take the beast totem chain + superstition chain + human favored class bonus + streng surge + Batybat + scent + rage lancepounce + wait until level 17 . And for some reason that build is representative of the barbarian class itself.
And I'd like to point out that I didn't say anything about beast totems, Batybats, Fav class bonus, Lancepounce, or level 17. And every power I mentioned can be taken by a core barbarian.
Also the monk still sucks, just some archetypes are good. And the Barbarian NEVER sucked. Now you people are just being silly.
Rage jump lets you make a DC 120 jump check? Really?
The pit is 30' deep.
Medium humanoids are listed as able to reach up to 8' tall with their arms above their heads.This means 22' are unaccounted for; jump check DC is now 88.
Take away 20, because there's no retry constraints nor time limit nor threat, so he can take 20.
The Barbarian need +68.
20 from Raging Leaper
4 from Fast Movement
23 from ranks in class skill... 47 down, 21 to go.
Dex will be 14base +6enhance. 16 to go.
All the barbarian needs here is a potion of Enlarge Person, which removes 8' (or 32 DC). He has 4' to spare.
Anyhow, I just figured I'd see if it can be done. The barbarian class can't really fix a 30' pit... not the way a grappling hook and rope can anyway (and any commoner can do that).
I think the acid test is silly; half the things can be solved with gear, and lack of ability to handle a specific list of arbitrary obstacles does not define class usefulness; the test asks and answers the wrong question, setting invalid standards.
I'd just like to point out that I think that is just a silly. :PWhen someone post a fighter who have good skills a reasonable good will save and still is very competent in combat then is just an archetype, it is not representative of all fighters.
But when at the same time it seems mandatory that every barbarian take the beast totem chain + superstition chain + human favored class bonus + streng surge + Batybat + scent + rage lancepounce + wait until level 17 . And for some reason that build is representative of the barbarian class itself.
And I'd like to point out that I didn't say anything about beast totems, Batybats, Fav class bonus, Lancepounce, or level 17. And every power I mentioned can be taken by a core barbarian.
Also the monk still sucks, just some archetypes are good. And the Barbarian NEVER sucked. Now you people are just being silly.
If I implied that you did, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent. I just meant that doing so would be equally as silly, and that wasn't my position.
I agree with you that core Barbarians aren't bad, nor have ever been bad.
@Bob_Loblaw
In PF anyone can find any kind of trap.Note: Magic traps such as glyph of warding are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find the glyph and Disable Device to thwart it.That does not mean nobody else can find it, but it means using perception only the rogue can find it.
That seems to mean that even if the someone else finds that may not mean they know it is a trap.
PS:I did not know if by find you meant "find" or identify as a hazard since the 2nd version of find is normally what people mean when referring to traps.
Really finding traps is as easy as summoning a critter and sending it barreling down the corridor. And often quicker too. I know groups who keep wands of summon monster 1 precisely for that purpose.
If the GM is inexperienced this could happen. But PF is a game for players with some experience, is not 4E. There are a lot of options and rules, you have to use as a guide line and not as a bible. If in your game exist something like ragepuncelance build, character with combined bonus on ST or spells DC above 30, or every trap can be bypassed with a critter, there's something wrong. Game's math should be a useful tool, not a mandatory rule.
If the GM is inexperienced this could happen. But PF is a game for players with some experience, is not 4E. There are a lot of options and rules, you have to use as a guide line and not as a bible. If in your game exist something like ragepuncelance build, character with combined bonus on ST or spells DC above 30, or every trap can be bypassed with a critter, there's something wrong. Game's math should be a useful tool, not a mandatory rule.
Um. What? Are you trying to say that the mechanics aren't bad because you can ignore the mechanics? Rule 0 fallacy, it sounds like to me.
Also...
or every trap can be bypassed with a critter, there's something wrong
Bypassed, no. However, all you need to do to become aware of a trap is to spring it, and having a summoned creature setting traps off before you reach them is generally a good idea.
EDIT: I mean, not everyone has their own Dijon or a bag of marbles.
I think the acid test is silly; half the things can be solved with gear, and lack of ability to handle a specific list of arbitrary obstacles does not define class usefulness; the test asks and answers the wrong question, setting invalid standards.
Then you haven't been reading the tests purpose as I keep posting over and over and over again. Half the things that can be solved by gear can soemtimes be more efficiently dealt with through spells or class features and efficieny is all that it looks for. But then no one has so for that reason it has become meaningless.
Ultimately it does look like Wraithstrike is correct. It's turning out to be more about quantifying standards then the fighter at all as damn near every poster has expressed a completely different standard on what makes a class good or not.
I think the acid test is silly; half the things can be solved with gear, and lack of ability to handle a specific list of arbitrary obstacles does not define class usefulness; the test asks and answers the wrong question, setting invalid standards.Then you haven't been reading the tests purpose as I keep posting over and over and over again. Half the things that can be solved by gear can soemtimes be more efficiently dealt with through spells or class features and efficieny is all that it looks for. But then no one has so for that reason it has become meaningless.
Ultimately it does look like Wraithstrike is correct. It's turning out to be more about quantifying standards then the fighter at all as damn near every poster has expressed a completely different standard on what makes a class good or not.
Is any test ever perfect is it possible to make a perfect standard I don't think this has an answer? Also any class with high strength can defeat a locked wooden door with a saw that costs 2cp A price level 1 commoners can afford. Carrying capacity is the main problem with saws and cavaliers should have saddlebags on their mount.
I think barred doors are more of a problem espicially with casters with buff spells behind them.
@Bob_Loblaw
In PF anyone can find any kind of trap.
That's why my statement was written as a conjunction including the word "and" to mean that he can find AND remove the magical traps [that he finds]. Yes, he can find them. Without an archetype, he can't remove them. The sentence was meant to be taken in its entirety, not broken down into separate phrases.
Really finding traps is as easy as summoning a critter and sending it barreling down the corridor. And often quicker too. I know groups who keep wands of summon monster 1 precisely for that purpose.@Bob_Loblaw
In PF anyone can find any kind of trap.Note: Magic traps such as glyph of warding are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find the glyph and Disable Device to thwart it.That does not mean nobody else can find it, but it means using perception only the rogue can find it.
That seems to mean that even if the someone else finds that may not mean they know it is a trap.
PS:I did not know if by find you meant "find" or identify as a hazard since the 2nd version of find is normally what people mean when referring to traps.
And the traps that have automatic resets will just be wasting your resources. In the end, you still would have to deal with the trap.
That's why my statement was written as a conjunction including the word "and" to mean that he can find AND remove the magical traps [that he finds]. Yes, he can find them. Without an archetype, he can't remove them. The sentence was meant to be taken in its entirety, not broken down into separate phrases.@Bob_Loblaw
In PF anyone can find any kind of trap.
I am sorry but most people who write it like that don't know that PF changed that.
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So, SET THE CRITERIA.
What's needed to make an 'effective fighter' from class abilities?
1) Full BAB
We're good.
2) Good hitpoints
d10, we're good.
3) Martial weapons prof
Yes.
4) Armor Prof, shields?
Yes.
5) Able to move and do full damage, or consistently deal full damage.
No.
Barbs can do with Pounce, charges only.
Any spellcaster can.
You can 'virtualize' this with an archery build, as you make the enemy come to you, and only an archery build.
Rangers and Paladins can't Pounce, either.
6) Good saves.
No. Good Fort, the others are poor, meaning this non/anti-magical class is vulnerable to magic, especially will-based magic.
Rangers get two good saves.
Barbs get a will boost. Or Superstitious. Did I mention Superstitious?
Paladins get Good Will and FOrt, + Cha to saves, immune to fear, etc.
7) Skills that can contribute.
This is as much a party/play issue as a class issue. Literally there is no skill REQUIRED to be a good fighter. Probably the biggest hole is Perception and Acrobatics. But the fighter doesn't need skills to be great at his core job, it's just 'nice'. And PF made this issue much less important by adding in Traits and dropping the penalty for cross-class skills.
Rangers, in contrast, have 4-6 skills they virtually MUST take to fit their theme...Survival, Perception, Stealth, Knowledge (nature), Wild Empathy, and SPellcraft if they want to be a caster.
8)Usefulness in downtime.
This is a non-class issue.
Paizo made this acheivable for COMMONERS by using Magical Artisan and focusing on Arms, Armor or Jewelry as a Craft skill. This costs 1 feat more then a spellcaster, and a +2 Int booster device for the Skill points. There's no need to make it all, when you can just swap for what you want at cost.
If making downtime productive is a priority for the party, burn the feat and claim your niche to maximize it for the party.
9) Other defenses.
No.
The barbarian gets superstitious, spell sunder, eat magic, a boost to Will saves, and superstitious. Did I mention superstitious? Oh, and uncanny dodge. We'll ignore the reflex bonus against traps the same way we ignore Bravery.
Rangers get evasion, in addition to minor spellcasting with defensive spells.
Paladins get Cha to saves, immune to fear, and elective resistance, in addition to spellcasting defenses.
10) Ability to self-heal?
This is only important in solo play. A COMMONER can self-heal with UMD ranks and a wand. In short, gold can replace spellcasting ability...and it's cheap. And if you're in a party, just hand it to the healer, don't UMD. Self-heal is a problem only if you are soloing.
Rangers and especially Paladins can self-heal. A Ranger is a wand-monkey who doesn't need to UMD, for the most part.
11) Spellcasting?
None. Paladin, Ranger have.
12) Versatility/adaptability?
Limited to weapons and gear, perhaps potions.
Nothing like a prepared spellcaster being able to swap spells.
Shared by barb, rogue.
Rangers and paladins can swap spells, but have a limited list mostly focused on combat.
13) Ability to Nova?
No. The Fighter is iconic steady as she goes.
The barb can 'nova' insofar as they can rage and Strength Surge.
The Paladin can Smite Evil. Situational, but VERY strong.
The Ranger 'novas' against his FE, particularly his best FE. This kind of breaks when he can make any enemy his best FE at higher levels.
14) Damage escalation by level?
Yes, the poster child with Weapon Training and Specialization feat tree.
Barbs, improve their rage.
Rangers, improve one FE, and broaden the range of it.
Paladins get a better smite and MAYBE a better sword.
15) Social skills?
This is a skill question. See 7) above. Of the Melee set, only the Paladin has any real social ability.
16) Leadership ability?
No. There are no feats that buff others, other then Teamwork feats. Certainly nothing in the class.
Barbs, same problem.
Rangers can choose an inferior animal companion.
Paladins can grant others bonuses vs Fear saves, and at high levels, 'give away' a Smiting ability.
Note this ability can be defined as 'buff other', which means that any spellcaster who can buff others is a 'leader'.
Anything else that isn't extremely biased I can add to the criteria.
==Aelryinth
Then you haven't been reading the tests purpose as I keep posting over and over and over again. Half the things that can be solved by gear can soemtimes be more efficiently dealt with through spells or class features and efficieny is all that it looks for. But then no one has so for that reason it has become meaningless.
My issue with the test is that it identifies individual obstacles in isolation, and those obstacles are things that take 2 seconds for a party to overcome. Overcoming specific obstacles or opponents isn't the entirety of the game.
If such a test was dominated by certain fightable enemies, it skews in favor of the fighter.
If such a test was dominated by supernatural forces, social obstacles, constructive demands, or other non-combat things, it skews against the fighter.
The best test is one with generic situations which represent all the different "flavors" of game situations.
For example, under "Combat" you have: BDB (Big Dumb Beast), Ambushed, Ambushing, Pitched Battle, Mobile Foes, Ranged Combat, Mixed Combat, NPC Party, Archvillain + Fodder, Outnumbered and Surrounded, Escaping, and so on.
Under "Intrigue" you have: Bartering, Interrogation, Being Interrogated, Con-artist, Info Gathering, Seduction, Infiltration, Thievery (stealth), Security (perception) and so on.
Under "The Masses" you have: rebuilding a town after calamity, quelling a riot, fortifying a battlefront, influencing reputation.
Under "Downtime" you have: empowering party effectiveness, surviving a night's rest in a hostile setting, making money, making connections.
Even with this list, I'm probably missing alot.
I'd just like to point out that I think that is just a silly. :PWhen someone post a fighter who have good skills a reasonable good will save and still is very competent in combat then is just an archetype, it is not representative of all fighters.
But when at the same time it seems mandatory that every barbarian take the beast totem chain + superstition chain + human favored class bonus + streng surge + Batybat + scent + rage lancepounce + wait until level 17 . And for some reason that build is representative of the barbarian class itself.
And I'd like to point out that I didn't say anything about beast totems, Batybats, Fav class bonus, Lancepounce, or level 17. And every power I mentioned can be taken by a core barbarian.
Also the monk still sucks, just some archetypes are good. And the Barbarian NEVER sucked. Now you people are just being silly.If I implied that you did, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent. I just meant that doing so would be equally as silly, and that wasn't my position.
I agree with you that core Barbarians aren't bad, nor have ever been bad.
Misunderstanding. I'm not calling you out, I'm calling Nicos out. Trying to shove answers from several people on several questions in one list and saying it is a general claim is absurd. I can't remember the name, but exaggerating your opponents argument into absurd proportions is a logical fallacy.
In my opinion this discussion has ended. One of the sides has dug their heels and is now answering well thought out arguments and reasonable logic with mockery, exaggeration, oversimplification, and several other fallacies.
Ashiel, Malignor and anyone who is interested in seeing a better fighter, I say we move to the Homebrew side of the forum and disscuss what can be done to inprove the fighters OoC ability without increasing his Combat ability.
Really finding traps is as easy as summoning a critter and sending it barreling down the corridor. And often quicker too. I know groups who keep wands of summon monster 1 precisely for that purpose.@Bob_Loblaw
In PF anyone can find any kind of trap.Note: Magic traps such as glyph of warding are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find the glyph and Disable Device to thwart it.That does not mean nobody else can find it, but it means using perception only the rogue can find it.
That seems to mean that even if the someone else finds that may not mean they know it is a trap.
PS:I did not know if by find you meant "find" or identify as a hazard since the 2nd version of find is normally what people mean when referring to traps.
That is not what most of us call "finding it." Normally that term refers to locating the trap before it goes off. an example why that is not called finding it is because if the trap has a large area of affect then the group could still be jacked up, even though sacrificing the summoned monster is a very common way to bypass or defeat the trap.
There are magic traps that are infinite uses maybe put one of a cr2 trap at higher levels against them so they figure it out.
Ashiel, Malignor and anyone who is interested in seeing a better fighter, I say we move to the Homebrew side of the forum and disscuss what can be done to inprove the fighters OoC ability without increasing his Combat ability.
I'll see you there. I already have a high level description of the abilities I'm considering.
Ashiel, Malignor and anyone who is interested in seeing a better fighter, I say we move to the Homebrew side of the forum and disscuss what can be done to inprove the fighters OoC ability without increasing his Combat ability.I'll see you there. I already have a high level description of the abilities I'm considering.
Anything else that isn't extremely biased I can add to the criteria.
==Aelryinth
Well I thought I'd make a few suggestions for your list.
8)Usefulness in downtime.
This is a non-class issue.
Paizo made this acheivable for COMMONERS by using Magical Artisan and focusing on Arms, Armor or Jewelry as a Craft skill. This costs 1 feat more then a spellcaster, and a +2 Int booster device for the Skill points. There's no need to make it all, when you can just swap for what you want at cost.
If making downtime productive is a priority for the party, burn the feat and claim your niche to maximize it for the party.
Again, this has been pointed out to be a waste. It doesn't matter if you choose magic arms & armor or wondrous items, you are going to effectively suck at either, because you are getting either 1/3rd of Arms & Armor, or you are getting an amazingly limited list of Wondrous Items, and almost assure that you won't be able to make any of the useful consumables, and will be missing a lot of other stuff. It's a trap.
So the ability to qualify for the feats naturally (by caster level) is strait up superior to the alternative, any way you slice it. Which is a plus on the side for any spellcasting class (all core classes except Fighter, Rogue, and Monk).
10) Ability to self-heal?
This is only important in solo play. A COMMONER can self-heal with UMD ranks and a wand. In short, gold can replace spellcasting ability...and it's cheap. And if you're in a party, just hand it to the healer, don't UMD. Self-heal is a problem only if you are soloing.
Rangers and especially Paladins can self-heal. A Ranger is a wand-monkey who doesn't need to UMD, for the most part.
Use Magic Device is nice, but requires heavy skill investiture (even with a 14 Cha, you need at least 7 ranks before you get a 50% chance to succeed on using a Wand). Likewise, if you roll a 1 when UMDing, you cannot activate that item for 24 hours. Which means that while anyone could attempt to use "happy sticks", you are at a disadvantage compared to anyone who doesn't need to.
Contrast, I don't believe it is only important in solo play. Being able to bring healing to the party means that there is less need for someone else to, and combined party healing is definitely a good deal. If 3/4ths of your party can heal, you are likely to have more stamina overall, and you run into less troubles when your main healer goes down or is turned to stone or something, because you have someone else to carry the torch.
12) Versatility/adaptability?
Limited to weapons and gear, perhaps potions.
Nothing like a prepared spellcaster being able to swap spells.
Shared by barb, rogue.
Rangers and paladins can swap spells, but have a limited list mostly focused on combat.
Most spells are focused on combat. However, Paladins & Rangers have plenty that are not. Both have resist energy, which can be used to bypass traps, deal with dangerous locations, make you immune to lava, and so forth, just with that one spell. Freedom of movement helps in a variety of terrain conditions. Longstrider lasts hours and can be used to help with jumping. Ranger has spells like alarm, delay poison (for when somebody picked up that object laced with black lotus or a room filled with gas), endure elements has virtually no combat effectiveness but is ideal for traveling through harsh environments. Pass without trace is ideal for scouting without leaving trails, or leaving trails and then wandering off in a different direction. Speak with animals is non-combat in most cases, and allows you to gather information about stuff. Animal messenger is also another. Jump, speak with plants, hide from animals, tree shape, water walk, neutralize poison, commune with nature, nondetection, and tree stride are all examples of non-combat spells. In fact, they have more non-combat utility spells than they have combat spells.
Paladins get a lot of useful stuff like restoration, undetectable alignment, zone of truth, endure elements, protection from chaos/evil and circle versions of the spell, dispel magic which can shut down traps, end bad spell effects, or remove cursed items by making them nonmagical, remove curse, remove blindness/deafness, discern lies, mark of justice, neutralize poison, and break enchantment, and daylight are other utility spells they possess. Their spells are more combat-oriented than a rangers, and they still have lots of utility stuff.
This isn't including any stuff that's in splatbooks either, which do include a lot of combat stuff (gravity bow/lead blade, grace, etc), and is just core material. I don't think it's fair to say that their spells are a combat-majority.
"Inferior animal companion" is a bit misleading. It isn't as good as a druid's animal companion, but it's only 2 HD behind by 20th level, which is a slim difference. The Ranger is basically getting a 14 HD minion, whom he can cast spells on regardless of their type, and can cast spells on their companion that normally do not affect their companion's type (which opens up a world of options as well).
Other than that, no mostly cool.
Misunderstanding. I'm not calling you out, I'm calling Nicos out. Trying to shove answers from several people on several questions in one list and saying it is a general claim is absurd. I can't remember the name, but exaggerating your opponents argument into absurd proportions is a logical fallacy.
In my opinion this discussion has ended. One of the sides has dug their heels and is now answering well thought out arguments and reasonable logic with mockery, exaggeration, oversimplification, and several other fallacies.
Ashiel, Malignor and anyone who is interested in seeing a better fighter, I say we move to the Homebrew side of the forum and disscuss what can be done to inprove the fighters OoC ability without increasing his Combat ability.
Sure. Do you have a thread open already?
I should point out that I think the Fighter's combat ability needs work too. Without relying on custom magic items, Fighters fail hard at higher levels, and could really use more combat options that don't involve just killing things.
Thread already open.
I 'm not too sure if he needs a power boost, but I can keep an open mind. Put your ideas in the basket and we can see where they go.