Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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Hi Folks,
I've been reading threads like "You Used To Play PFS, But Now..." and it's got me wondering something.
What can we do to help?
And I don't want to disparage that discussion, I think it's fine. Enlightening even. Nevertheless, it (if just by the way the discussion is framed) emphasizes the negative with a side order of mourning. That's why I decided to start a brand new thread.
I'm also NOT posting in any official capacity, other than a concerned member of the community- just like all of you.
So I'd like invite people to post what they would like to have in their PFS experience going forward.
Here's some suggestions:
1.) If you have a list, jot them down in order of importance. The first being most important to you.
2.) Say it in a brief opening statement or phrase (like "Faction Missions That Matter". Then, if you want to explain it in depth, go right ahead! But that brief summary phrase will help you focus your point, and really drive it home to the rest of us.
3.) Keep it positive. We got lots of threads saying what is wrong. Take it as a challenge and say what you want, not what you don't have. Try to avoid making it personal. We all care, but we're different people with different styles and different ways of communicating. Please give it a shot; we're all smart enough to flip the question around into something negative like, "I want other people to stop being stupid", but that's not positive. There's always a way to express what you want without going hostile. For example: 'I'd like more guidelines on table etiquette, or character creation.'
SO....... We all know what's wrong, let's move past that. What would you like to see in the future? Or-
How can we help?
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Who the heck am I, and why do I care?
I have just barely started playing in PFS, so take this with a grain of salt. I may be way off on this.
But I think it would have helped if there were more play level options.
The first one I went to, I was seated with a group that was a bit more powerful than the senario expected (6 PC's average about level 2.2 I think). As we understood it, we could either play up at level 4-5 or down at level 1-2. We felt 1-2 would be to easy and boring. But we got trounced on 4-5.
Yes, if we had played better as a team it might have been possible. But most of us did not know each other and didn't know what to expect each other to do.
I think it would have been more reasonable if we could have played at 2-3 or 3-4.
I don't know if this was common type of occurance or not. But it really seemed to bother a couple of the other players to fail the mission. It didn't actually upset me though.
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What would I like? I'd like to play more often, and GM less. :)
In seriousness, though, here's my top four. (They're the only ones that I've actually thought through, which means that they're probably the only ones I really care about.) :
1) Scenarios that give the players a chance to learn more of the background as they play through them. There's so much rich story to the scenarios that are given in the first three pages, and normally the GM is the only one that gets to see it. Some of the more recent modules have lines in them like "NPC X can reveal any of the information in the initial background of this scenario." It's a simple thing to add in, but to my mind, an important one.
2) Chronicle Sheets that really matter for more than just XP. I'm not going to rehash this argument, as there are a few threads that are addressing this issue, and frankly, I don't have a solution on how it can be done, but I think it's important to have the sheets be more valued to the player.
3) Older scenarios that are updated to fit the new "setting" and factions. First off, I know that this is a time-intensive process, and so I don't know how realistic a request this is - after all, we already have a very slow process on updating the Season 0 scenarios to Pathfinder RPG rules. However, with the change starting in Season 3 - the addition of new factions and the reveal on the Shadow Lodge - a lot of the Season 2 scenarios don't make sense any more. Again, it has the potential to be a small change, but an important one for immersion in the storyline. Take Shades of Ice, for example - it's no longer a Shadow Lodge cell; now, it's a Rogue Shadow Lodge cell, meaning that Shadow Lodge members have an even more important role in the takedown. These are things that individual GMs can do, but it'd be nice to get some official adaptation. (When there's time...)
4) Faction missions that not everyone in a given faction can get. Okay, now that your blood pressure is up, hear me out. I dislike the fact that faction missions are effectively a gimme; if I don't have the skill, I just ask someone in the group to help me, and bingo, done. Frankly, I'd like to see helping cross-faction outlawed - but this only works if the majority of the faction missions are either given multiple methods to succeed, at least one of which is a "doesn't have to be trained" skill.
Anyway, just my thoughts. I suspect the fact that I'm a V-L might suggest that I'm not going anywhere: I enjoy GMing and playing, and have fun with the game, but these are a few of the things I'd like to see in the future.
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Good topic. I will be watching with great interest!
How can you watch with great interest when your helmet doesn't have eyeholes?
:P
On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it. In essence I agree with Jeff's number 4.
I completely agree with nosig's mission briefings. Why does the Venture Captain have to give all the information to the PCs? Why can't the Venture Captain have experts? There's just not enough time to ask questions a lot of the time, plus some places (Gen Con) are too loud to hear any of the briefing anyways.
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On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it. In essence I agree with Jeff's number 4.
This Subject is interesting, seems to me that Half of PFS wants Missions to be more difficult and the other half wants them to be easier..
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it.
GM's are supposed to reward creative solutions to the scenario's challenges.
On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it. In essence I agree with Jeff's number 4.This Subject is interesting, seems to me that Half of PFS wants Missions to be more difficult and the other half wants them to be easier..
I don't mind them being difficult. I have a problem with there only being one possible way to complete them. This is the same "You can't go there the door is locked and you don't have a key no you can't pick the lock or force it" problem with computer games. Por ejemplo if I have a guy I need to get information out of, why must it only be a Diplomacy check? Why can't I tie the guy up and take him back to the pathfinders for credit? And if there's information I need to pass to someone, again why only a Bluff check? Can't I make a Sleight of Hand check or hell even pull the guy into another room? Rather than tell me how I'm supposed to pass the check, tell me what you want me to do and let the GM decide if I've succeeded.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't mind them being difficult. I have a problem with there only being one possible way to complete them. This is the same "You can't go there the door is locked and you don't have a key no you can't pick the lock or force it" problem with computer games. Por ejemplo if I have a guy I need to get information out of, why must it only be a Diplomacy check? Why can't I tie the guy up and take him back to the pathfinders for credit? And if there's information I need to pass to someone, again why only a Bluff check? Can't I make a Sleight of Hand check or hell even pull the guy into another room? Rather than tell me how I'm supposed to pass the check, tell me what you want me to do and let the GM decide if I've succeeded.On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it. In essence I agree with Jeff's number 4.This Subject is interesting, seems to me that Half of PFS wants Missions to be more difficult and the other half wants them to be easier..
As I stated above, GMs are supposed to reward creative solutions. From my perspective, when a mission note says "this requires a DC 20 Bluff check", I read it as "the required DC is 20 for any Bluff check to do this". It sets the bar; it doesn't define the only angle of attack.
As I stated above, GMs are supposed to reward creative solutions. From my perspective, when a mission note says "this requires a DC 20 Bluff check", I read it as "the required DC is 20 for any Bluff check to do this". It sets the bar; it doesn't define the only angle of attack.I don't mind them being difficult. I have a problem with there only being one possible way to complete them. This is the same "You can't go there the door is locked and you don't have a key no you can't pick the lock or force it" problem with computer games. Por ejemplo if I have a guy I need to get information out of, why must it only be a Diplomacy check? Why can't I tie the guy up and take him back to the pathfinders for credit? And if there's information I need to pass to someone, again why only a Bluff check? Can't I make a Sleight of Hand check or hell even pull the guy into another room? Rather than tell me how I'm supposed to pass the check, tell me what you want me to do and let the GM decide if I've succeeded.On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it. In essence I agree with Jeff's number 4.This Subject is interesting, seems to me that Half of PFS wants Missions to be more difficult and the other half wants them to be easier..
Sorry I hadn't seen your original post until after I posted. However I recall a thread about asking if GMs play the scenario straight or if they improvise and that's what got me thinking about this comment.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it.GM's are supposed to reward creative solutions to the scenario's challenges.As long as the solution would work.
Telling the Faction head that you did it, when in fact it wasn't done by you, and was only half done by another PC (half was not done at all)... maybe is a streach. "I'll roll a bluff, and get the rest of the PCs to assist me on this..." well....
What's the DC to pull the wool over the eyes of a faction head? DC 17? Nope. No cookie.Please do not pout if you fail your mission.
Naturally. The phrase is "reward creative solutions", not just "reward". There needs to be a "creative solution" in there. ;)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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Please do not pout if you fail your mission.
Easy nosig, easy.
We're all doing good here, staying positive. Let's not blow it now. :D
We're going to have differences of opinion. Let's explain why we feel the way that we do- rather than projecting something on to the other guy.
And we're cool! I know you love the PFS! I just want to keep the discussion light and friendly. I would appreciate and thank you kindly.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So.... I ask the player if he is going to try a Bluff on the Faction Head... with aid from all the other players. Rolling of dice (he did not take 10 on the bluff - I offered to let him). Result is 17. and everyone at the table expected me to give it to him. My biggist problem with this is the part in the bold.
.....Wow.
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1) More puzzles or social/role play encounters. Don't get me wrong I love combat, but 4 or 5 back to back encounters of combat with a one or to skill checks in between gets very dull very quickly. I know this is a bit of hyperbole but some of the modules are very close to this.
2) Rescue missions where we do exactly that, rescue someone. It's become a standing joke with the people that I play with that we, our characters, place bets on whether the person we're supposed to go find is dead or not. More often than not they are dead and now we must find out why.
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On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it. In essence I agree with Jeff's number 4.This Subject is interesting, seems to me that Half of PFS wants Missions to be more difficult and the other half wants them to be easier..
I think the disconnect is as follows:
First: prior to the Season 3 Guide with the new factions and the new Field Guide, each faction indicated which classes were most appropriate for that faction, and which were least appropriate. As such, you would have fighters that would tend to gravitate toward Taldor, and then a heavy preponderance of Taldoran faction missions were in trained only skills that a Fighter probably would have no business taking. In season 3 this lightened up a bit, but for some, faction missions remained impossible, rather than just difficult. And this isn’t discussion those who gimped their characters attributes to min/max or uber-optimize. This is a well-rounded character who can’t make the DC 25 diplomacy check at 1st level, because they only have 1 rank, not a class skill, and a +2 Charisma bonus. So the complaint about needing them to be easier, is really about not making the faction missions so specific that they are only doable if you have so many skills that you aren’t really good at any of them, thus making the missions themselves harder.
Second: You have many faction missions that are often Diplomacy or Sleight of Hand or some other skill that people tend to take a lot of ranks in, and the DC’s are always a static 20, thus they auto succeed half the time.
This is a serious dichotomy, and balancing out the faction missions a bit better I think is a worthy goal.
Director of Brand Strategy
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On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it. In essence I agree with Jeff's number 4.This Subject is interesting, seems to me that Half of PFS wants Missions to be more difficult and the other half wants them to be easier..
Discounting difficulty, in what other ways would folks like to see faction missions improved? We had a 3.5 hour meeting yesterday on the topic and have a plan to revamp the system, but I'm curious what changes the community would make if put in our shoes.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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I don't mind them being difficult. I have a problem with there only being one possible way to complete them.
If this helps: in the instructions and guidelines I get from Mark, I'm told to avoid this sort of trap. Specifically, if the skill required is a trained skill we are supposed to provide an alternative method solution or skill option.
That may not be the case with an untrained skill, where you at least have a shot based upon your ability score.
I've been trying to provide multiple solutions in most cases, and clearly its a concern to continue to watch in scenario development.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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No jim, you got me wrong! was a funny pout (one of the pouters was my wife...). No, it's just the fact that players are coming to expect that any "creative solution" will be good enough. and to not "get the cookie" is almost as bad as dying...
Then please accept my full and complete apology! You are exonerated!
I'm just being cautious. We got an opportunity here, and I'm hoping for an easy conversation where we all talk as friends.
My bad! Please continue with your awesome feedback!
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Discounting difficulty, in what other ways would folks like to see faction missions improved? We had a 3.5 hour meeting yesterday on the topic and have a plan to revamp the system, but I'm curious what changes the community would make if put in our shoes.On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it. In essence I agree with Jeff's number 4.This Subject is interesting, seems to me that Half of PFS wants Missions to be more difficult and the other half wants them to be easier..
I think that having all the faction DCs or their occurrence be the same would help. For example, I've seen faction missions which were literally kill this person and they are an encounter in the module. Whereas another pc, in the same module, had to seek out an unknown npc in a certain time frame that, other than the players wanting to go there for the faction mission, they occur nowhere in the module. I think that if one faction's mission is part of the story then the other factions' missions need to be part of the story. I think that making this more universal for everyone will greatly help.
Further many faction missions have different DCs. If you're going to have a skill check then everyone's DC needs to be the same across the board. I know we've started to see this as a trend with the season 3 modules and I hope it continues.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Discounting difficulty, in what other ways would folks like to see faction missions improved? We had a 3.5 hour meeting yesterday on the topic and have a plan to revamp the system, but I'm curious what changes the community would make if put in our shoes.On to my one and only gripe about PFS: Pass or fail faction missions. If nobody in the party has the requisite skill to pass the mission, there is no possible way to work around it. In essence I agree with Jeff's number 4.This Subject is interesting, seems to me that Half of PFS wants Missions to be more difficult and the other half wants them to be easier..
I'd make success mean some sort of in-game benefit rather than a Prestige Point. Maybe the mission to Diplomacize NPC X gets them to lend you a hand/offer you a potion, or the mission to find Document Y gets you privy to some immediately-relevant information (like weaknesses of a monster you're about to encounter).
Make the reward for a success be in-character instead of out-of-character. (I think Prestige and Fame feel very OOC, since they involve buying stuff and that's almost always done "off-camera".)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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I think that having all the faction DCs or their occurrence be the same would help. For example, I've seen faction missions which were literally kill this person and they are an encounter in the module. Whereas another pc, in the same module, had to seek out an unknown npc in a certain time frame that, other than the players wanting to go there for the faction mission, they occur nowhere in the module. I think that if one faction's mission is part of the story then the other factions' missions need to be part of the story. I think that making this more universal for everyone will greatly help.
But you do actually like having story based faction missions, don't you? Straight question.
The reason I ask, is the skill based ones are easier to write, but its tougher to make them feel interesting.
I get your point entirely, and its a fair one, but sometimes these odd mix of missions arises from the desire to make them interesting and not contrived.
You're right, the DCs should not be up or down, especially within the same sub-tier.
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This may not have been meant for me since I'm still playing somewhat regularly, but off the top of my head:
1. unique, creative items on the chronicles (still to be purchased). Give me a masterwork diplomacy tool(bow tie) at half off because in the scenario we ran into a rag vendor in the puddles, or a monocle that adds to perception checks once a day (Maybe it smudges easily, needs to be cleaned thoroughly each morning and the odd Azlanti sea glass it's made from is resistant to prestidigitation) because you found it in the professor's study while searching for his lost ledgers. I'd like items on the chronicles that remind me of where and when I got it, even if I actually purchase it 3 scenarios later. I miss that sense of wonder when finding unique useful things while playing.
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I think that having all the faction DCs or their occurrence be the same would help. For example, I've seen faction missions which were literally kill this person and they are an encounter in the module. Whereas another pc, in the same module, had to seek out an unknown npc in a certain time frame that, other than the players wanting to go there for the faction mission, they occur nowhere in the module. I think that if one faction's mission is part of the story then the other factions' missions need to be part of the story. I think that making this more universal for everyone will greatly help.But you do actually like having story based faction missions, don't you? Straight question.
The reason I ask, is the skill based ones are easier to write, but its tougher to make them feel interesting.
I get your point entirely, and its a fair one, but sometimes these odd mix of missions arises from the desire to make them interesting and not contrived.
You're right, the DCs should not be up or down, especially within the same sub-tier.
So far the Quest for Perfection series seems to be doing a bang-up job of creating interesting faction missions, at least to me.
but...
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Jeff - I really liked your 1 thru 3... and didn't like 4.
and I really liked your post.
Wow; I got a thumbs-up from nosig! :)
For the record, I'm aware of the fact that I'm either in the minority with my opinions on Faction Missions, or at the very least, there are a lot more vocal people on the forums who feel differently about the issue than I.
My biggest problem with faction missions right now is that it doesn't really matter what faction you are, or how many of your allies happen to be in your party - what matters is whether the group at your table is able to complete a given faction mission. You're a Chelaxian fighter who dumped Charisma in favour of Constitution but your faction mission has a DC20 Diplomacy check? No problem, the Andoran bard in your party can take care of that for you.
Now granted, this is an issue of culture more than mechanics, and I'm kind of on the fence as to whether a mechanical solution is the right kind of solution - but it seems to be that limiting the help that one can get from one's party - even if you say that the only help you can get is from Aid Another checks - would go a long way towards verisimilitude.
But then again, maybe that's just me. Anyway, I don't mean for this thread to turn into a discussion of Faction missions - there's a few threads for that already, so maybe I'll take the discussion over there so we can get back to answering Jim's question.
My advice, which I'm echoing, is to put unique items on the chronicle sheets or items still unavailable for PCs of that tier. They really need to mean something, and they don't when a PC can just go purchase items listed on the chronicle sheet.
More interwoven faction missions would be great into the story lines.
Jeff you hit the nail on the head for that. Factions don't even seem to matter. What in game benefit is there to foiling another faction? There isn't one. You don't get any extra prestige if you prevent a faction from succeeding, nor do you lose any if you fail to prevent them. I think that's why people help each other cross-faction, besides the idea that PCs should always work together.
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My advice, which I'm echoing, is to put unique items on the chronicle sheets or items still unavailable for PCs of that tier. They really need to mean something, and they don't when a PC can just go purchase items listed on the chronicle sheet.
More interwoven faction missions would be great into the story lines.
Let me open up the floor for ideas about unique items. We have included them in the past (an intelligent ring and a braid). Unfortunately, it doesn't look like people are interested in buying them much. These are items you can't get anywhere else besides purchased from the specific Chronicle. What kind of unique items would be of a large appeal to a lot of players and make sense being put on a Chronicle sheet?
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I don't want to see faction missions in conflict, but at the same time, I like the idea of an underlying political struggle to lead the society. That means an interesting dichotomy between the general tenets of cooperation being at odds with your faction trying to get ahead of the other factions. I would like to see mission success drop back to the 1.5 or even less target. One way to do that is not to encourage assisting other faction members with their missions. That doesn't mean to interfere or sabotage their efforts, just don't go out of your way to assist. And especially not to do their mission for them. Just my 2cp.
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As a player (and a DM) I would strongly DISAGREE with the idea of having faction missions that are designed to force the players to work against each other - that is very counter to why I play PFS.
Faction missions are not going to be designed to work against other factions. We've got other plans in place such as to allow them to.......&$^*&#^&^(*@&
Ugh...I almost spilled the beans. You will have to wait until Season 4 to see what direction we are going with in regard to faction missions. But, after our 3.5 hour meeting yesterday, I believe Mark and I have found a way to make faction missions matter, make them important for each PC to accomplish, how to make them have a visible, apparent, and lasting effect on the campaign, and overall, how to make them better. We are discussing not only how to make them better in regard to having an affect on the campaign, but also how to succeed or fail a faction mission and the numerous options that go with that.
We've got a system in mind. We've got several more meetings scheduled to work out the system and any kinks, and to actually put our plan in motion to make it work starting in Season 4. Please be patience while we work toward making that campaign goal come to fruition.