Intensified Burning Hands dealing 10d4+10+5 damage is even less to scoff at.
Half-Orc Draconic bloodlines rock for blasting.
(And nothing says "fun" like making rings of spell storing and giving everyone on your team a ring with a pre-cast 10d6+10+5 damage fireball that you charged up during a travel day...)
intensified burning hands deaing 10d4 as a lv2 spell is nothing to scoff at
although intensified shocking grasp is legit
Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree with you. But to keep such an effect viable at higher levels, you would potentially need to heighten it as well; 10d4 isn't nearly as impressive when divided by two. And that's not taking into account varies resistances.
My sorcerer, a crossblooded orc/elemental, would get an extra 20 points if it was cold based, or just 10 with any other element, so I guess it's not that bad.
Intensified shocking grasp is very nice, but I tend to avoid melee touch spells. Too risky.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Intensified shocking grasp is very nice, but I tend to avoid melee touch spells. Too risky.
There's a lot of really strong melee touch spells out there, which is exactly why almost every arcane caster I play inevitably picks up spectral hand. It lasts several minutes and can thusly be used at an time when "buffing" is happening and it permits you to make touch attacks at range (with a bonus to boot!).
Yeah, the hand is fragile, but it is incorporeal, meaning that only magic weapons and spells can harm it (unless you're fighting incorporeal foes). Additionally, any attack directed at destroying the hand is an attack that isn't hitting one of your allies!
This:
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Note also that while the wizard may be memorizing lots of interesting spells, he's generally not casting all of them. As a sorc, you get to unload. But...you basically suck until 4th (and Scorching Ray).
This is also why a lot of wizard don't memorize lots of interesting spells/situational spells and that's why a sorcerer should have some situational spells.
The sorcerer, and other spontaneous casters, don't have the problem with "a spell not cast is a wasted slot".
Suck spell? Sleep.
Heh. My Infernal Sorceror is getting DC's of close to 22 at 6th level with Charm spells (Cha 20, Eagle's Splendor, Bloodline Arcana, and SF: Enchantment = DC 20 + SL). Once he gets to Dominate people, I think I'm gonna try to steal a country.
Infernal bloodline doesn't boost dominate (you need fey for that)
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So, to get back on-topic about bad spells, here's my take on things. I'll start with 1st level- someone else can take other levels. Note that the utility of these spells can change a lot at higher levels, so I think we should just consider the level at which they first become available. That said:
Endure Elements: No mechanical benefits beyond benefits to survival/fortitude checks. This is a definite corner case... if your campaign is set in the arctic wastes then this might be a must-have, otherwise leave it to the druid.
Detect Undead: Detect undead auras for 1 min/level, seriously? This is a thematic choice at best, I can't see it being an everyday spell for any sorcerer.
Magic Aura: A potentially handy utility spell, this is very unlikely candidate for a sorcerer spell slot. Grab a scroll (or two) instead.
Ventriloquism: This is a bard spell. A thematically appropriate sorcerer with a spell slot to spare *might* get some use out of this, but since it allows a save just from hearing it, it is probably... suboptimal.
Animate Rope: Requires a touch attack and a reflex save to entangle someone? Might trip instead? Just get hydraulic push if manipulating the battlefield is your thing.
Erase: Seriously? A sorcerer might use this once per campaign.
...Detect Undead: Detect undead auras for 1 min/level, seriously? This is a thematic choice at best, I can't see it being an everyday spell for any sorcerer...
I would take it if playing carrion crown AP (or similar campaign) but not otherwise.
...Erase: Seriously? A sorcerer might use this once per campaign.
I once played with a rog/sorc/AT that would spam stilled and silenced erase constantly when we were in town/library/business/castle/etc... Drove the GM nuts because he had planned for the intelligence to be gathered from us reading document. Didn't find out until later that he actually saved us from some spell traps and bad planted information.
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First level spells I would never take as a sorcerer*
*unless a compelling game world specific reason popped up in play
Adjuring Step: You can move slowly and safely and still cast spells, until you move quickly, make an attack, or cast a harmful spell.
Alter Winds: Increase/decrease strength of natural winds.
Ant Haul: Triples carrying capacity of a creature.
Anticipate Peril: Target gains a bonus on one initiative check.
Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Crafter's Curse: Subject takes –5 on Craft skill checks.
Crafter's Fortune: Subject gains +5 on next Craft check.
Damp Powder: Ruins ammunition loaded in the targeted firearm.
Dancing Lantern: Animates a lantern that follows you.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Erase: Mundane or magical writing vanishes.
Expeditious Excavation: Moves 5-ft. cubes of earth.
Floating Disk: Creates 3-ft.-diameter horizontal disk that holds 100 lbs./level.
Jump: Subject gets bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Ki Arrow: Arrow deals damage as your unarmed strike.
Liberating Command: Target makes an Escape Artist check as an immediate action and gains a bonus on it.
Magic Aura: Alters object's magic aura.
Moment of Greatness: Doubles a morale bonus.
Polypurpose Panacea: Gain a relaxing or entertaining effect.
Reinforce Armaments: Temporarily mitigates the fragile quality in targeted weapon or armor.
Shadow Weapon: Create a quasi-real masterwork weapon.
Sleep: Puts 4 HD of creatures into magical slumber.
Stumble Gap: Small hole trips creatures.
Summon Minor Monster: Summon 1d3 Tiny animals.
Touch of the Sea: Swim speed becomes 30 ft.
Unprepared Combatant: Target takes –4 on initiative and Reflex saves.
Ventriloquism: Throws voice for 1 min./level.
Vocal Alteration: Disguise target's voice.
Weaken Powder: Targeted firearm's ammunition halves the firearm's range and imposes a –2 penalty on damage rolls.
Youthful Appearance: Target appears younger.
Second Level Spells I would never take as a Sorcerer*
*unless something about the specific game setting changed their usefulness
Accelerate Poison: Hastens targeted poison's onset.
Ant Haul, Communal: As ant haul, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Badger's Ferocity: Weapons are keen while you concentrate.
Bestow Weapon Proficiency: Grants a creature proficiency in a single weapon for short period of time.
Bullet Shield: You gain a +4 deflection bonus to AC against firearm attacks.
Certain Grip: You gain a +4 competence bonus on Acrobatics and Climb checks and to CMD.
Continual Flame: Makes a permanent, heatless light.
Create Treasure Map: Creates treasure map out of a creature's corpse.
Daze Monster: Living creature of 6 HD or less loses its next action.
Delay Pain: Ignore pain for 1 hour/level.
Destabilize Powder: Ammunition in the targeted firearm is prone to misfire.
Dust of Twilight: Black particles extinguish light sources within area.
Elemental Speech: Enables you to speak to elementals and some creatures.
Endure Elements, Communal: As endure elements, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Frost Fall: The area is covered in a chilling frost.
Ghostly Disguise: You look like a ghost of yourself.
Glide: You take no falling damage, move 60 ft./round while falling.
Gust of Wind: Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures.
Hypnotic Pattern: Fascinates 2d4 + level HD of creatures.
Kinetic Reverberation: Channels the force of an enemy's attack back into its weapon.
Magic Mouth: Object speaks once when triggered.
Magic Siege Engine: Siege gains +1 on targeting and damage rolls.
Masterwork Transformation: Make a normal item into a masterwork one.
Misdirection: Misleads divinations for 1 creature or object.
Obscure Object: Masks object against scrying.
Pernicious Poison: Target takes a –4 penalty against poison.
Phantom Trap: Makes item seem trapped.
Protective Penumbra: Shadow protects the target from light.
Pyrotechnics: Turns fire into blinding light or thick smoke.
Recoil Fire: Ammunition in the targeted firearm generates excessive recoil.
Reinforce Armaments, Communal: As reinforce armaments, but you may divide the duration among objects touched.
Reloading Hands: Loads a single shot into your weapon every round.
Returning Weapon: Grants a weapon the returning special weapon quality.
Ricochet Shot: Imbues a projectile weapon to give its ammunition the ability to ricochet.
Scare: Frightens creatures of less than 6 HD.
Sculpt Simulacrum: Alter a simulacrum's appearance.
Share Memory: Share one memory with the target.
Shatter: Sonic energy damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Silk To Steel: Use a scarf as a shield or whip.
Slipstream: Wave boosts creature's speed.
Stabilize Powder: Ammunition in the targeted firearm is less likely to misfire.
Steal Voice: Target gains the croaking spellblight.
Tactical Acumen: You gain an additional +1 on attack rolls or to AC due to battlefield positioning.
Thunder Fire: Ammunition in the targeted firearm deafens opponents.
Twisted Space: Targeted creature's attacks target a random square instead of the intended target.
Unnatural Lust: Target is compelled to kiss or caress another creature.**
** OK, I might take this one if I were playing a chaotic trickster. :)
On my first campaign i played a sorcerer who used shatter to break nonmagical locks (We didnt have a rogue and i didnt notice knock). It had some uses...but it wasn't ENTIRELY useless
My arcane trickster uses floating disks to carry loot after a quest.
We're playing CotCM right now, when we left the evil castle (after killing the 4 anchors and Mithrodar) we had tons of loot to carry. After resting i used all my spell slots to summon enough floating disks to carry it all
See, the problem is that spells change value as you level. Bad spells for your first 2 Sorcerer selections might not be bad choices for your foruth or fifth (or sixth+ if you're Human).
For example, I would think any beginnig spell selection would be "bad" if it did not include at least one of the following (as I consider battlefield control to be essential):
Grease, Charm Person, Sleep, Color Spray, or Silent Image
Personally, I think Sleep and Color Spray are equally awesome first choices, but both need to be traded out, if not immediately at level 4, then at least by level 6. Obscuring Mist is also decent, but I think less powerful at the beginning than Sleep/Color Spray, and less relevant for the long haul than the others (since later fog spells effectively duplicate Obscuring Mist and carry an additional effect).
I would think that your second choice would depend on your bloodline. If it's initial power is an attack (even a crappy one that can tide you over a few levels), your second choice should probably be another control spell or a defensive spell of some kind (Protection from Evil, Shield, Mage Armor, or Expeditious Retreat for example).
Otherwise, you likely need an attack spell unless your Dex is high enough to make your crossbow a credible threat.
Edit: I can't believe they made Scythes martial in Pathfinder! I was going to include something about theoretically having enough strength to wield the Scythe all Sorcerer/Wizards carry in actual combat, but the -4 nonproficiency penalty is too much. That's ok, a Coup De Grace automatically hits, so, you can still get the sweet x4 crit on the helpless people you've nailed with Sleep/Color Spray. And yes, you can Coup De Grace with a Crossbow, but a Heavy Crossbow will only cause 11 damage, while a Scythe (with no Str penalty) will average 20.
I find burning hands to be beyond useless early on without some kind of bloodline buff (why use a 15' cone of crappy damage--Burning Hands--when I could use a 15' cone of instant win--Color Spray?), so I'd lean Magic Missile (get Toppling Spell later!) or one of the touch spells (Shocking Grasp, Corrosive Touch, etc.).
For your third and fourth spells, you probably want to take what you haven't already--a second battlefield control, a defensive spell, or an attack. For your fifth and any additional Human ones you get, then you have room for interesting situational spells like Feather Fall, Enlarge Person for your tanks, Floating Disk for loot carrying, True Strike for touch abilities that absolutely have to hit, or even Touch of the Sea.
So, the end result is, while the "worst" Sorcerer spells are obviously extremely narrow and situational things mostly intended for the GM like Sepia Snake Sigil or Phantom Trap, "bad" Sorcerer spells are pretty much anything other than optimal choices.
From my experiences playing a mid- to high-level sorcerer, you don't want to fill your low level known spells with too many combat-oriented spells -- you'll more often be using your higher level spell slots for that purpose instead.
Looking at mdt's list above, some of them are good general purpose utility spells which I'd be happy to have available as a high-level sorcerer (e.g. Gust of Wind, Shatter, Misdirection, Pyrotechnics).
@Hogarth
Yes, those are all ok, but there's other general purpose utility spells I'd rather have instead...
Alarm (ALWAYS a good idea)
Comprehend Languages
Disguise Self
Expeditious Retreat
Grease
Hold Portal
Mount
And that's not the entire list. But those are the general purpose utility spells I'd rather have instead of the ones I posted as not being worth taking. Especially since you can get them on wands cheap at higher levels. Or make yourself some cheap staves that only have 1st level spells on them that you want to cast but don't know.
@Hogarth
Hold Portal
Mount
I can agree with most of those spells, but I have issues with those last two. I have never, in all of my years of gaming, ever had to cast Hold Portal. Nor do I know anybody who has. I can't really see needing to cast that spell so often that a sorcerer should have it on his spells known.
Mount is a decent spell, but unless you DM likes to target your horse a lot (which is possible, and a perfectly logical tactic) I can't really see it being used that often.
@Hogarth
Hold Portal
Mount
I can agree with most of those spells, but I have issues with those last two. I have never, in all of my years of gaming, ever had to cast Hold Portal. Nor do I know anybody who has. I can't really see needing to cast that spell so often that a sorcerer should have it on his spells known.
Mount is a decent spell, but unless you DM likes to target your horse a lot (which is possible, and a perfectly logical tactic) I can't really see it being used that often.
mount is an underestimated spell. it's as good as summon monster for triggering traps, and also makes an excellent distraction when cast repeatedly (communal version is good too). it's main use, however, is a one hundred percent expendable form of getaway transport. the knights in shining armour pursuing you probably care for their horses a great deal, and have qualms about running them to death in pursuit of you. with mount that's not an issue, and when one horse drops from exhaustion you can just summon another one. my sorcerer has outrun armies like this, saving the party several times over in rapid succession.
@Hogarth
Yes, those are all ok, but there's other general purpose utility spells I'd rather have instead...Alarm (ALWAYS a good idea)
Comprehend Languages
Disguise Self
Expeditious Retreat
Grease
Hold Portal
MountAnd that's not the entire list.
I should hope not, considering my list is of 2nd level spells and your list is of 1st level spells. :-)
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mount is an underestimated spell.
I just don't see a group pushing a horse in front of them for their whole adventure on the off chance they trigger a trap. I guess if it works for you then... *shrug* ... I haven't seen anyone actually use it this way myself and I'm skeptical it's that useful as such.
For use as emergency transport, buy the wand. For most of the groups I've been in 750gp is a lifetime supply worth of 2 hour horses, dirt cheap compared to a spell slot. I'd take expeditious retreat as a spell slot long before mount.
I can agree with most of those spells, but I have issues with those last two. I have never, in all of my years of gaming, ever had to cast Hold Portal. Nor do I know anybody who has. I can't really see needing to cast that spell so often that a sorcerer should have it on his spells known.
Completely agree--Hold Portal is essentially worthless as far as I'm concerned. I don't think I've ever even seen a Wizard use it. I mean, jeez, in totally optimal conditions in which you were able to run through a door with enemies in pursuit, it just acts as if the door were normally locked and raises the DC to break it by 5. That's going to, what, delay the enemies one round? Maybe 2? Blah.
Mount is a decent spell, but unless you DM likes to target your horse a lot (which is possible, and a perfectly logical tactic) I can't really see it being used that often.
Mount is the best level 1 summon available--the other options are just as weak, if not weaker in combat and don't last nearly as long. The Mount can trigger traps as well as any celestial monkey or whatever, can provide a long duration horse you can ride into the dirt, and it can provide cover in combat (which I think is it's best use).
No, I don't think I would ever take it, as there are better options, but it's sure not a terrible option--far from the worst.
Hold Portal was really lousy, but the other extremely confusing spell from his list was Alarm. Why in the world is that always worth having? Seems like junk to me, and if it was really needed for whatever insane reason, wand it.
Also, I would consider Grease to be one of the very best 1st level spells available (up there with Silent Image), so why did it end up on a secondary list of "general utilities?"
mount is an underestimated spell.I just don't see a group pushing a horse in front of them for their whole adventure on the off chance they trigger a trap. I guess if it works for you then... *shrug* ... I haven't seen anyone actually use it this way myself and I'm skeptical it's that useful as such.
For use as emergency transport, buy the wand. For most of the groups I've been in 750gp is a lifetime supply worth of 2 hour horses, dirt cheap compared to a spell slot. I'd take expeditious retreat as a spell slot long before mount.
I was a DM a long time before I was a player.
Finally, when my players INSISTED that they host a game for JUST ME, they threw me in a horrible gauntlet of deadly traps.
They HATED me when I began summoning horses to disarm all their traps, making the gauntlet trivial.
se).
....but the other extremely confusing spell from his list was Alarm. Why in the world is that always worth having? Seems like junk to me, and if it was really needed for whatever insane reason, wand it.
Alarm is an awesome spell, and I'll tell you why. It is incredibly difficult to bypass without tripping. Unless you dispel it (which means wasting a 3rd level slot on a first level spell) or can teleport past it, it will go off. I once played an arcane trickster who HATED that spell, because he had no way of bypassing it; not a good situation for the self-styled King of Thieves.
Alarm is an awesome spell, and I'll tell you why. It is incredibly difficult to bypass without tripping. Unless you dispel it (which means wasting a 3rd level slot on a first level spell) or can teleport past it, it will go off. I once played an arcane trickster who HATED that spell, because he had no way of bypassing it; not a good situation for the self-styled King of Thieves.
Yeah, I get why it sucks to face as a thief or something, but why would a PC care to have it? Is your game, I don't know, backwards? Do the PCs build dungeons and keeps and stuff and the GM sends NPCs in to invade and rob them?
Or are your GMs the kind of jerks that drop nightly ambushes on your camp sites like clockwork?
Alarm is an awesome spell, and I'll tell you why. It is incredibly difficult to bypass without tripping. Unless you dispel it (which means wasting a 3rd level slot on a first level spell) or can teleport past it, it will go off. I once played an arcane trickster who HATED that spell, because he had no way of bypassing it; not a good situation for the self-styled King of Thieves.Yeah, I get why it sucks to face as a thief or something, but why would a PC care to have it? Is your game, I don't know, backwards? Do the PCs build dungeons and keeps and stuff and the GM sends NPCs in to invade and rob them?
Or are your GMs the kind of jerks that drop nightly ambushes on your camp sites like clockwork?
Early warning system. Leave an alarm or three behind you as you explore dungeons or old ruins or really anywhere. It's useful when you suspect you're being tailed by someone or something.
In quite a few games, our PC's aren't the only ones searching for the mcguffin or what not; many a time we do all the work only to be ambushed by rivals for the prize.
In one instant, an alarm saved our PC's from an assassin hiding in plain site as we trekked through a mountain pass. The wizard was expecting an attack (though not from the assassin) and set an alarm in the middle of a path. The assassin tripped it, and though no one could see him, we were alerted and allowed to react before it was too late by having the druid summon a huge earth elemental (yay tremorsense).
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Finally, when my players INSISTED that they host a game for JUST ME, they threw me in a horrible gauntlet of deadly traps.
They HATED me when I began summoning horses to disarm all their traps, making the gauntlet trivial.
So... here's my thing. If you know there likely a big string of traps ahead of you then the point of the traps is already defeated.
Even so, if your GM does drop the gauntlet of traps you, casting from a wand is great because it's cheap and caster level is irrelevant, exactly the sort of thing that's ideal for a wand and not worth using a spell known on.
You can also, before going to sleep at night, cast an alarm around your camp sight. This is kind of bad in the wilderness (given most wildlife will set it off), but in the desert, most things big enough to set it off are dangerous. Same for arctic tundra, and underground especially. If you choose your campsite right underground, you can set two alarms 50 or 60 feet from your camp, and have plenty of time to get woken up and ready for anything coming too close.
EDIT: And I'll give my list of preferred 2nd level spells tomorrow that are non-attack/blasting.
Nobody has mentioned Dream? Really?
Let's see... It requires the recipient to be asleep. So, 1/3 of a given day.Unless they're elves, then they don't get it. Oh, and it also requires the user to go into a trance for the duration of the spell and be defenseless, and takes 10 rounds to set up before hand. You know, ten times longer than it takes to make a multiverse altering Wish. Oh, and you also need to know more about them than to attempt to scry on them.
Oh yeah! AND the message is one-sided, so the recipient can't ask for any sort of clarification if he or she gets confused!
I guess it...works across planes, and allows as long a message as you want without a save, assuming the plane your on has standard time. In timeless planes, for example, they would never go to sleep since you're outside of time.
So it only works on some people, some times, in some places, and is inconvenient to cast.
Pretty gross, right? Must be a low level for such a situational spell with other equivalents that work more often, right? Nope. It's level 5.
Really? Seriously?
Nobody has mentioned Dream? Really?
Let's see... It requires the recipient to be asleep. So, 1/3 of a given day.Unless they're elves, then they don't get it. Oh, and it also requires the user to go into a trance for the duration of the spell and be defenseless, and takes 10 rounds to set up before hand. You know, ten times longer than it takes to make a multiverse altering Wish. Oh, and you also need to know more about them than to attempt to scry on them.
Oh yeah! AND the message is one-sided, so the recipient can't ask for any sort of clarification if he or she gets confused!
I guess it...works across planes, and allows as long a message as you want without a save, assuming the plane your on has standard time. In timeless planes, for example, they would never go to sleep since you're outside of time.
So it only works on some people, some times, in some places, and is inconvenient to cast.
Pretty gross, right? Must be a low level for such a situational spell with other equivalents that work more often, right? Nope. It's level 5.
Really? Seriously?
Well, I'm pretty sure its been established that Dream is a lame spell for *anyone* to have. I doubt even wizards would bother to scribe it in their spellbooks. I know I've never bothered, at any rate.
Well, I'm pretty sure its been established that Dream is a lame spell for *anyone* to have. I doubt even wizards would bother to scribe it in their spellbooks. I know I've never bothered, at any rate.Nobody has mentioned Dream? Really?
Let's see... It requires the recipient to be asleep. So, 1/3 of a given day.Unless they're elves, then they don't get it. Oh, and it also requires the user to go into a trance for the duration of the spell and be defenseless, and takes 10 rounds to set up before hand. You know, ten times longer than it takes to make a multiverse altering Wish. Oh, and you also need to know more about them than to attempt to scry on them.
Oh yeah! AND the message is one-sided, so the recipient can't ask for any sort of clarification if he or she gets confused!
I guess it...works across planes, and allows as long a message as you want without a save, assuming the plane your on has standard time. In timeless planes, for example, they would never go to sleep since you're outside of time.
So it only works on some people, some times, in some places, and is inconvenient to cast.
Pretty gross, right? Must be a low level for such a situational spell with other equivalents that work more often, right? Nope. It's level 5.
Really? Seriously?
... I have a dream... (i couldn't resist. sorry.)
Mage's Lucubration
Lubricate Mage is a different story though...
Finally, when my players INSISTED that they host a game for JUST ME, they threw me in a horrible gauntlet of deadly traps.
They HATED me when I began summoning horses to disarm all their traps, making the gauntlet trivial.
So... here's my thing. If you know there likely a big string of traps ahead of you then the point of the traps is already defeated.
Even so, if your GM does drop the gauntlet of traps you, casting from a wand is great because it's cheap and caster level is irrelevant, exactly the sort of thing that's ideal for a wand and not worth using a spell known on.
Stealing that idea so fast.
Mage's LucubrationLubricate Mage is a different story though...
AKA "Summon Gin and tonic."
Infernal bloodline doesn't boost dominate (you need fey for that)Heh. My Infernal Sorceror is getting DC's of close to 22 at 6th level with Charm spells (Cha 20, Eagle's Splendor, Bloodline Arcana, and SF: Enchantment = DC 20 + SL). Once he gets to Dominate people, I think I'm gonna try to steal a country.
I know. But by that point I'll have picked up a more permanent boost to my Charisma, and Greater SF: Enchantment, and (yes) Heighten Spell. What I can't dominate, I'll charm.
Actually, I think I'm gonna steal a diamond mine first. Lay the groundwork for my wishes later on.
2nd Level Utility spells I'd rather have than the ones I said I don't want, since someone asked...
Alter Self: Assume form of a Small or Medium humanoid.
Arcane Lock: Magically locks a portal or chest.
Bear's Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull's Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Cat's Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.
Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Darkvision: See 60 ft. in total darkness.
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
Disguise Other: As disguise self, but affects you or another.
Eagle's Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Fox's Cunning: Subject gains +4 to Int for 1 min./level.
Invisibility: Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.
Levitate: Subject moves up and down at your direction.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Make Whole: Repairs an object.
Owl's Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Resist Energy: Ignores first 10 (or more) points of damage per attack from specified energy type.
Rope Trick: As many as eight creatures hide in extradimensional space.
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Spider Climb: Grants ability to walk on walls and ceilings.
Symbol of Mirroring: Triggered rune creates mirror images.
Whispering Wind: Sends a short message 1 mile/level.
Some of those more than others, obviously, but all of them are useful. Some campaigns may make them a bad choice, so then they wouldn't get chosen, but that would be true of any spell we discuss. The big ones are probably See Invisibility, Darkvision (if I don't already have it), Invisibility, Make Whole, and Resist Energy.
Arcane Lock? What is with you and locking stuff? I've never seen that come up either. Oh, and all the symbol spells are garbage.
I also think all the stat buffing spells, while great for Clerics and Wizards to have short term, are terrible for the Sorcerer that is stuck with them long term, as their bonuses don't stack with magic items.
Keep in mind I'm not suggesting your other list had good spells on it--the only ones I'd ever consider from it were Pyrotechnics and Shatter, or maybe Frost Fall for a very themed build. No, I'm just saying that I don't think the majority of these are any better.
From your list, the only ones I'd ever want as a Sorcerer would be:
Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Levitate, Resist Energy, and maybe See Invisibility.
Resist Energy and Levitate are the real gold on that list, though. Every Sorcerer probably ought to have Resist Energy, but not as one of their first spells, only as one of their later ones. Levitate is another one of those spells like Color Spray/Sleep that are fantastic until they become obsolete. Yes, Color Spray/Sleep becomes obsolete because of HD, and Levitate because of Fly/Overland Flight, but it's the same idea--a great spell that should be traded out later (possibly for Resist Energy?).
Darkvision I think is pointless--Alter self can also give Darkvision and other stuff, and I don't think enough of the party is going to need it that I should spend a valuable spell known on it.
Alter self for darkvision is a horrible use of the spell.
If I need darkvision, I don't need it for a few minutes, I need it for hours while I'm slogging through a dungeon or sneaking around at night to avoid being spotted.
For the arcane lock, I like like being able to slow down people that are chasing me if I'm in a dungeon. If tucker's kobolds are chasing me down, I want them to have to stop and smash the door apart for 4 or 5 rounds, while I continue using expedition retreat for the same amount of time.
I will grant you that if you're not in a campaign where you're dungeon diving, it flips to the 'don't bother' list.
Oh,
and See Invisibility is really a must have to me. I can't tell you how many times I've had GMs use invisible attackers (Ogre Mages are the biggest PITA) to harass us. One of the first things I'd always get with a warlock in 3.5 was 'See the Unseen'.
Though they certainly aren't ideal for sorcerers due to their expensive component cost, symbol spells are hardly garbage.
Put your symbol of choice on a shield or your armor and simply walk around stunning/killing/whatever to all of your enemies once you pull your cloak/wrap off of it.
I've had invisible wizards with a symboled wood board fly over armies debilitating and killing thousands while their own forces swept inward.
They also make good defensive spells.
Oh,
and See Invisibility is really a must have to me. I can't tell you how many times I've had GMs use invisible attackers (Ogre Mages are the biggest PITA) to harass us. One of the first things I'd always get with a warlock in 3.5 was 'See the Unseen'.
I agree with you about See Invisibility; with the stealth mechanics being garbage in the system, the only two real methods of stealth are invisibility and hide in plain sight. See invisibility is a must have spell; along with arcane sight, it is one of the spells I even pay to make permanent.
At first glance, alter self is gold for a sorcerer, but I find myself not liking it very much. While it certainly provides versatility, it lacks the one thing that would make it truly worth casting: a decent duration. Alter Self, like most of the polymorph spells, suffer from a low duration, rendering it nothing more than a combat spell, and a useless one at that, since all of its benefits are more favorable for melee attackers. A good use for the spell, like the varies polymorphs, could be covert in nature, but I usually find a few minutes not long enough to infiltrate a gnoll encampment, find the hostage, release the hostage, and creep back out undetected.
All of the other benefits of the spell also don't last long enough; using it for Darkvision, as mdt has said, isn't all that useful.
I agree with you about See Invisibility; with the stealth mechanics being garbage in the system, the only two real methods of stealth are invisibility and hide in plain sight. See invisibility is a must have spell; along with arcane sight, it is one of the spells I even pay to make permanent.Oh,
and See Invisibility is really a must have to me. I can't tell you how many times I've had GMs use invisible attackers (Ogre Mages are the biggest PITA) to harass us. One of the first things I'd always get with a warlock in 3.5 was 'See the Unseen'.
Since every Sorcerer has Glitterdust (they do, don't they?), and they use Heighten to keep it relevant for just about 20 levels (you do, right?), I don't think See Invisible is all that important.
It's kind of funny actually--the reason you take the spell is the Blind, but the side effect that people tend to ignore and forget about is what makes See Invisible vastly less valuable.
Glitterdust is great, but requires you to have narrowed down where the invisible guy is to within a 10 ft area.
I'm not sure what heightening it would get you, other than the higher DC to resist being blinded.
If you really want to use it for purging invisibility, you'd be better off to widen it, but that is kind of a waste of space when a second level spell gives you the spot he's in immediately, and then you can glitter him so everyone else can see him.
At higher levels I just carried a wand of glitterdust, since it's only a second level spell.
It's kind of funny actually--the reason you take the spell is the Blind, but the side effect that people tend to ignore and forget about is what makes See Invisible vastly less valuable.
IMO, the blindness effect became secondary once the afflicted creatures started getting new saves every round. I notice that regardless of the actually duration, most enemies I hit with it will be unblinded within three rounds. So now I only use it to deal with hidden enemies.
Glitterdust is great, but requires you to have narrowed down where the invisible guy is to within a 10 ft area.
It's a 10' radius, so it's a 20' x 20' area. That's 16 squares on a battle map.
Further, you can tell an Invisible creature is within 30 feet with a DC: 20 Perception check. And it just gets easier if they're doing anything. It's DC: 15 if they move at half speed, DC: 10 at full speed, and DC: 0 if it's running, speaking, or fighting.
So, it's not that tough to catch one in the effect.
I'm not sure what heightening it would get you, other than the higher DC to resist being blinded.
That's pretty much the point--being Blind is a fight ender if the target doesn't have Blindsight, Scent, or Tremorsense (at least until everyone is flying).
kind of a waste of space when a second level spell gives you the spot he's in immediately, and then you can glitter him so everyone else can see him.
When you can only know 5 spells from a list that includes better spells, like Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Web, Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Minor Image, Mirror Image, False Life, Alter Self, Levitate, and Pyrotechnics, I think using a spell known on See Invisible is a very high price to pay.
At higher levels I just carried a wand of glitterdust, since it's only a second level spell.
At high levels, if it's only 2nd level, the save DC will suck and you'll have spent an arm and a leg for it to get a decent duration. I'm not saying having it in a wand will never be a good idea, but I do think it's good enough to keep forever.
IMO, the blindness effect became secondary once the afflicted creatures started getting new saves every round. I notice that regardless of the actually duration, most enemies I hit with it will be unblinded within three rounds. So now I only use it to deal with hidden enemies.
D'oh. I need to be more careful reading Pathfinder spells--they are subtley different. I still think it's worth it, but I might suggest Persistent then, before Heightening it to 4th.
Since I only use it for purging invisibility, I don't care if it only lasts two rounds, most things don't survive more than two rounds of being ganged up on, and the invisible things are top priority.
Ok, misread the target line, so 20 foot diameter. Still, the whole perception thing to spot the invisible creature assumes it's not stealthing. If it's using stealth (and it's insane not to), then the DC is perception vs stealth, and it get's a whopping +20 if it's moving, or a +40 if it's not. So no, finding the stealthing ogre mage who's casting silenced spells at you is not easy at all. Especially if he's just floating in place using stealth (and getting that nifty +40 bonus!).
Honestly, any invisible character should be stealthing, and taking 10 on it even while moving. So the DC isn't 20 to notice it, it's 30 minimum (assuming it has no ranks in stealth, and 10 dex).
Still, the whole perception thing to spot the invisible creature assumes it's not stealthing. If it's using stealth (and it's insane not to), then the DC is perception vs stealth, and it get's a whopping +20 if it's moving, or a +40 if it's not. So no, finding the stealthing ogre mage who's casting silenced spells at you is not easy at all. Especially if he's just floating in place using stealth (and getting that nifty +40 bonus!).
Ok, this example is getting confusing now. First, you have to be talking about some kind of Custom-built Ogre Mage, because the Pathfinder Ogre Mage can only turn Invisible, he doesn't have Greater Invisibility, and all of their spells except Gaseous form would break the Invisibility (which then would take a Standard action to put back on). They also don't have the Silent Spell feat.
Further, the +40 is for being immobile--that means not doing anything. If he's casting spells with Somantic Components, he's not immobile--he's not moving spaces, but he is moving. So that's only a +20. Considering he can't Stealth and cast spells at the same time, he's doing one or the other, and if he's Stealthing, he has no skill bonus for it, so it defaults to just his Dex of +3 and Size of -4, albeit it with a +20 Bonus (likely a +15, though, since he's probably moving spaces, too, since just sitting there doing nothing isn't especially helpful.
Honestly, any invisible character should be stealthing, and taking 10 on it even while moving. So the DC isn't 20 to notice it, it's 30 minimum (assuming it has no ranks in stealth, and 10 dex).
Doing anything useful while you're Stealthed takes the Sniping action, which gives you a -20. So, yeah.
Seriously, Invisible enemies aren't nearly as bad as they used to be.
Hmmm, after reading this back and forth, I may need to add invisibility to the don't learn list. I must be stuck in the dark ages, because i didn't know invisibility still allowed so one to spot you if they have a high enough perception.
The problem we had with Ogre Mages were them summoning creatures using silenced metamagic spells. So no noise, and no moving around.
And immobile does not mean not casting, it just means immobile, not moving. If you're not moving around (staying in your square). So, it's a lot harder to notice someone then.
As to not stealthing while invisible, that's not the way it works. It takes a move action to stealth, or you can do it while taking a move action. That doesn't mean you have to actually move. You can stealth with a move action while remaining immobile in one space. That's a +40.
Also, not sure where you got the idea you can't stealth and cast spells. You can stealth whenever you doing anything as long as it's not Charging, Attacking, or Bull Rushing. Casting a summon spell is not attacking. Nor is casting illusion spells, darkness spells, or anything else that can cause indirect damage (like stone shaping the support out from under the bridge we were walking over, I really hated that one).